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given its early and I'm only two coffee awake, can you now Quicken Deep Strike Units ?

 bullyboy wrote:
looked at Swooping hawks the other day and wondered why they are not getting used. Cheap as dirt, decent gun range for a deep strike unit, and can help clear some chaff. 68pts for 5 is a nice way to take some objectives. I guess Rangers can do the same thing, but don't have the same kind of maneuverability when on the table.

I've tried a ten man unit in a couple of games recently, unfortunately they were against custodes and thousand sons. I think they did one wound in each game in shooting and no mortal wound output from the grenade packs due to poor rolling on my part.
They are still a decent unit but they need to target something squishy to do any real damage.

 bullyboy wrote:
looked at Swooping hawks the other day and wondered why they are not getting used. Cheap as dirt, decent gun range for a deep strike unit, and can help clear some chaff. 68pts for 5 is a nice way to take some objectives. I guess Rangers can do the same thing, but don't have the same kind of maneuverability when on the table.

Rangers synergize better with the big Craftworld special stuff (notably the Alaitoc -1 and Doom) far better than Hawks do for general purpose use. Plus the Rangers can help fill out detachments for CPs better.

Thats not to say that Hawks dont have their role, just that by the nature of the Codex that role is much more niche than the things Rangers get included for.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
given its early and I'm only two coffee awake, can you now Quicken Deep Strike Units ?

No, BRB FAQ

Missed opportunity to do something about the Webway Gate I think!

Generally agree with all changes.

Hoping for points reductions in CA later this year for Warlocks and Spiritseers as you just don’t see them anymore, which is a bit odd - especially for Ulthwe.

Alaitoc rangers still seem very good.

-2 to hit and a 3+ save out in the open is great. Having the option to deep strike into cover later to grab backfield objectives is also great. Infiltrating rangers were really more of a speed bump before anyway.

I cant remember if it was ETC or Nova but some top eldar lists were using Swooping Hawks for their screens instead of rangers since the Hawks cannot get trapped in combat thanks to fly.

 Galef wrote:
So are Rangers better or worse post FAQ?
They changed their deployment rule so that instead of being deployed just after deployment, they are placed at the end of any Move phase.
But the Tactical Reserve change also means any unit arriving mid-battle like this cannot do so in the first battle round.

So Rangers cannot drop in until turn 2.
Personally, this isn't too bad as Rangers are my only Troops and I need them later anyway.
But it does mean that I can no longer use them to screen in the first turn (or second turn if I go second), which may not be necessary since NOTHING can drop near you in the first turn anymore (things that uses to "infiltrate" now "scout" instead).
Still have to worry about move twice abilities, though

Also, what do we think of the "second player gets cover" Strat?

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Screens still needed vs da jump etc. Death company dropping close and do 3d6 charge still hurts without screen. With change to fly screens rose in value

So are we so used to have useless units and options that nobody is going to complain about no Errata on the Shriftshroud?
Maybe it's nitpicking but I hate to see this kind of half-arsed rules changes from GW.
Oversight or they just don't care?

What is sad is that people complain so much about Eldar when in reality it's just a select few units that are powerful and most of the codex is average at best! Our warlord traits and relics are just terrible for the most part.
It's really a shame that you don't see many of the cool units in the codex.....Banshees, Scorpions, Fire Dragons, Swooping Hawks, Shining Spears (just kidding), wraithlords, falcons, etc.

I honestly think I'm going to have to resurrect my Biel Tan Aspect Host just to throw out some different units (have an Iyanden Spirit Host and Ulthwe Strike force). I love playing Eldar in their stereotypical incarnations (my Ulthwe strike force is just Guardians, warwalkers, vypers, seers and support weapons)

Edit: As an aside, what do people now think about fielding the Yncarne for Ynnari since it can start on the table now?

Secondary edit: With the new article on Warhammer Community https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/09/30/24th-sept-grim-dark-corners-the-aeldari-pantheongw-homepage-post-2-gw-homepage-post-3/, does this hint at a possible Ynnari codex in the near future? Remember that there was an article about Ghost Warriors a few weeks ago out of nowhere (which I thought odd with the timing), which heralded the announcement of the new Wake the Dead box. Why release the article on the Aeldari Gods, culminating with the talk about Ynnead if no Ynnari codex is in the wings?

 bullyboy wrote:
Edit: As an aside, what do people now think about fielding the Yncarne for Ynnari since it can start on the table now?

I'm curious about that, too. It definitely makes it possible as an alternative to Yvraine, but I feel like it's just got too many points invested in abilities that generally aren't going to be useful.

On the plus side- it's a very nice beatstick that can be protected by Wraithblades or somesuch, is active in the psychic phase, and can soulburst itself and other Ynnari, and the 6+++ bubble is a nice touch.

But, the downside is that it pays a premium in points for its dedeploy ability, and was originally balanced against the pre-nerf Soulburst mechanics. Post those changes, I have a hard time justifying it in a list at 330+ points.

So, personally, i think Rangers are now just a standard drop. Until CA (if not longer) you're going to be paying for their ability to deep strike, but never going to be using it.

They can be used as screens, but, i feel that in most Eldar lists screening is a bit redundant anyway. The best screening units to prevent the few instances of turn 1 charges now will be Hemlocks/Crimson Hunters, or just straight up Wave Serpents if you expect they'll be able to survive turn 1 with a 2+ save. At most i think Rangers will be used for "cheap" cp AND denying small pockets of deepstrike zones for your opponent. But, when Dire Avengers also exist, it's a hard choice to make to take the Rangers.

I've always liked Swooping Hawks, but, the problem i have with them is their ability to survive. They need to be in deepstrike 95% of the time imo, and now you'll be always waiting for turn 2 to drop them down. They are a great backline harasser and objective grabber, but, unless you have other distractions everywhere else they won't do much in regards to winning you the game.

One unit that could be interesting as a screen, especially if you're going second and have the spare CP to burn on the strat, is Warp Spiders.They are more expensive than Hawks, but, will be rocking a 2+ save, can flicker jump alongside being Alaitoc for -2 to hit, and can then use their packs to fall back and still shoot/charge forward.

The more i look at it though, the more i'm thinking "how many Wave Serpents can i get in my list and what can i put in them that will pack a punch afterwards?".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for Ynnari, i don't really see anything as having changed for them. Everything they could do before, they can do now, with the exception of Spears charging over units.

 bullyboy wrote:
What is sad is that people complain so much about Eldar when in reality it's just a select few units that are powerful and most of the codex is average at best! Our warlord traits and relics are just terrible for the most part.
It's really a shame that you don't see many of the cool units in the codex.....Banshees, Scorpions, Fire Dragons, Swooping Hawks, Shining Spears (just kidding), wraithlords, falcons, etc.

Pure Craftworlds aren't as good as many non-Craftworld players like to claim(unless you play perhaps Alaitoc). Dark Reapers were the strongest units pre-nerf, especially with Ynnari boosting, but post-nerf they are in a fine place. With Shining Spears I'd say they are good but not nearly as powerful as people say, unless they have Soulburst. Problem is that the current strength of Asuryani is more or less traced back to having Ynnari abilities rather than anything else. I fear that if they continue nerfing Craftworlds as a reflection of Ynnari strength that Craftworlds will be that much more worse for wear.

With the new FAQ, I think that dire avengers are going to be one of the most reliable troop choices. The new everything gets cover stratagem helps them more than any other unit because the exarch's 4+ invuln gets bumped to 3+ which can absorb quite a bit of firepower if your dice are even slightly lucky. Having 2 wounds on the exarch is pretty crucial as well. Even if only 1 DA squad member survives the first turn they didn't give up a killpoint, and can still hold a backfield objective. I think they also work better just because they can fit in a wave serpent which is by far our best unit again.

I think we are going to see a strong return to serpent spam due to the deep strike and infiltrate rules changing. The serpent shield disrupts the current meta of using D2 and D3 weapons. A lot of armies are going for the avenger cannons, heavy burst cannon, disintegrator cannons, and plasma weapons instead of laying on extra melta weapons or lascannons/rail rifles. Most armies can only manage to pop 1 wave serpent on turn 1, especially with screening units to block charges. I think dire avengers play into that strategy well because even if they are used as a screen you can embark them the turn after if they survive.

Swooping hawk seem like decent screens but they are fast attack so you might have to sacrifice CP when comparing to dire avengers or rangers.

Rangers always make good screens but they don't have the slightest chance of surviving close combat like dire avengers do. I can see bringing 1 unit of rangers as opposed to the obligatory 3x5 rangers for their versatility. 3 seems kind of overkill with the new FAQ.

Warp spiders make for great distractions, but I don't think their guns do consistent enough damage to warrant their high points cost. I would only take them with alaitoc to be really annoying objective grabbers. In my experience they can take a lot more firepower than their worth, but they'll never earn their points back in terms of damage without some serious luck.

Cover doesn't add +1 to invulnerable saves (thankfully).

I think Rangers will still have a pretty substantial utility as a screening troops choice with the new cover stratagem. Previously it was not possible to set them up as a true screen out of cover because they lose so much durability. Now you can put them anywhere to block Smashcaptains, and be guaranteed full durability vs shooting that tries to clear them for turn 1 at least if you end up going second.

Dire Avengers may be a little hardier in CC but honestly, if your enemy charges your squishy T3 models with anything half serious they are gonna die.

Theyre still overall not a bad choice for a generalist troops choice but between Guardian bombs and reliable -2 to hit Rangers theyre still a tough sell.

I think Rangers will still have a place because they are cheap, hard to hit with shooting, can target characters, and can get a mortal wound on 6. Dire Avengers have a shorter firing range, slightly better armor out of cover, and have an ability against charging that may or may not be useful in your current fight.

Dire Avengers are just in a weird spot right now.

Rangers are still great but their shooting is still almost non-existent in most games.

The DA's overwatch ability will find more use with the new charge rules I think. And the avenger catapult has a fairly long range since they are moving 7+D6 inches per turn.

Guardian bombs seem like a pretty big investment between points, CP, and supporting characters. The new deep strike rules didn't do them any favours.

I don't think dire avengers are that good at any particular thing except clearing chaff, but they aren't as bad as the other troop choices in terms of versatility

Since you have a big nerf to fly, you need t clear some screens, so what in the Craftworld list does it best? It seems that most of that which works is best coming from reserve.

 bullyboy wrote:
Since you have a big nerf to fly, you need t clear some screens, so what in the Craftworld list does it best? It seems that most of that which works is best coming from reserve.

Potential turn one charge from Howling Banshees? It takes support, but the support are things in a typical army. Quicken, Doom, Stratagem for 6" advance...

I don't think it is the greatest, but an option.

Depends on the screen. Linked Fire Fire Prisms shooting a d6 beam twice could help a lot against most target. If you are facing T3 bodies I imagine Swooping Hawks could be helpful. If Scatter Bikes were a little cheaper I would recommend them.

Spinners or dual cannon Vypers / Walkers come to mind.

Why not just use your Shining Spears to clear the screen?

This may see a return towards the usefulness of scat bikes. One can counter deploy the bikes to be in line of site and range of the screen, then just mow it down from the 36" range. For heavier screens, Hornets are pretty deadly, but they are somewhat costly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

barboggo wrote:
Why not just use your Shining Spears to clear the screen?

The effectiveness of this unit will most assuredly go down come CA. Will they still be good? Most likely, but that depends on the point increase that is coming.

tneva82 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
So are Rangers better or worse post FAQ?
They changed their deployment rule so that instead of being deployed just after deployment, they are placed at the end of any Move phase.
But the Tactical Reserve change also means any unit arriving mid-battle like this cannot do so in the first battle round.

So Rangers cannot drop in until turn 2.
Personally, this isn't too bad as Rangers are my only Troops and I need them later anyway.
But it does mean that I can no longer use them to screen in the first turn (or second turn if I go second), which may not be necessary since NOTHING can drop near you in the first turn anymore (things that uses to "infiltrate" now "scout" instead).
Still have to worry about move twice abilities, though

Also, what do we think of the "second player gets cover" Strat?

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Screens still needed vs da jump etc. Death company dropping close and do 3d6 charge still hurts without screen. With change to fly screens rose in value

Agreed, but Rangers didn't need "infiltrate" as it was before to be screens. They can still be screens by deploying normally, but now have the option to drop in on a later turn instead.
Overall it changes how they function, but I don't see it as a nerf (or a buff), but more like a lateral move.

But I'm still really, really disappointed with the Webway Gate not being changed.

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 Galef wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
So are Rangers better or worse post FAQ?
They changed their deployment rule so that instead of being deployed just after deployment, they are placed at the end of any Move phase.
But the Tactical Reserve change also means any unit arriving mid-battle like this cannot do so in the first battle round.

So Rangers cannot drop in until turn 2.
Personally, this isn't too bad as Rangers are my only Troops and I need them later anyway.
But it does mean that I can no longer use them to screen in the first turn (or second turn if I go second), which may not be necessary since NOTHING can drop near you in the first turn anymore (things that uses to "infiltrate" now "scout" instead).
Still have to worry about move twice abilities, though

Also, what do we think of the "second player gets cover" Strat?

-

Screens still needed vs da jump etc. Death company dropping close and do 3d6 charge still hurts without screen. With change to fly screens rose in value

Agreed, but Rangers didn't need "infiltrate" as it was before to be screens. They can still be screens by deploying normally, but now have the option to drop in on a later turn instead.
Overall it changes how they function, but I don't see it as a nerf (or a buff), but more like a lateral move.

But I'm still really, really disappointed with the Webway Gate not being changed.

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Functionally, the only hope for the Webway Gate is that that they know it is junk and already planned on it being addressed in CA. However I feel it can still be used tactically with a little ingenuity. I plan to attend a GT in Nov and use that bad boy as the backbone to a fluffy list designed to win preferred opponent. Couple the Webway Gate with a Harlequin list consisting of 2 fusion pistols, then profit!

Well, at least the WWG got a sort-of bonus in the from of "Prepared Positions". 2CPs if you go second can give it a 2+ armour.
But if you are going second, the opponent have 2 turns to take down the WWG before you get to use it at all, so probably not going to make a difference other than making you hemorrhage CPs.

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The gate would automaically benefit if the harlequin strats were available to Craftworlds to allow an emergency exit. Not sure what I would put into it still as infantry/vehicles can just use a CP to do the same without the 120pts. The exception is the CP to allow you to exit and just be over 1" away instead of 9" away, but a smart player would just shut the gate down completely with their movement.

I thought the "Harlequin" stats are available automatically because the Webwey is a Harlequin unit, so it unlocks the stratagems since it can only be taken as part of a harlequin fortification detachment. The stratagem itself (The Labyrinth Laughs) states an AELDARI unit not a HARLEQUINS unit.

Or does the fortification detachment not give stratagem access?

The problem with the gate is that if the enemy destroys it on the first turn you cannot use the stratagem since there is no deploying from reserves during the first turn. There is nothing in the Webway gate datasheet or stratagems that allows you to circumvent that rule.

abyrn wrote:
I thought the "Harlequin" stats are available automatically because the Webwey is a Harlequin unit, so it unlocks the stratagems since it can only be taken as part of a harlequin fortification detachment. The stratagem itself (The Labyrinth Laughs) states an AELDARI unit not a HARLEQUINS unit.

Or does the fortification detachment not give stratagem access?

The problem with the gate is that if the enemy destroys it on the first turn you cannot use the stratagem since there is no deploying from reserves during the first turn. There is nothing in the Webway gate datasheet or stratagems that allows you to circumvent that rule.

you're absolutely right on the first part, I just never thought of it as a harlequin detachment. That helps a little bit.

I'm not sure on the second part with the use of the strat but the new Beta reserves rule does forbid any deployment in first turn. Hopefully GW will address this. Isn't there a necron thing that is the same?

The "emergency exit" strat still doesn't override the "no units may arrive turn 1" reserve restriction,
So if the WWG dies in the first turn, everything "in it" dies too, regardless of having access to the strat
There really is no grey in this.

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