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The more I think about it, Dual Scatter Laser is 24 shots for a full squad and that only costs 162 points. It's a pretty resilient back field objective grabber.

I run my war walkers with brightlances a lot of the time. 6 lances average 10 wounds against t7, 3+sv without psychic support which is a sweet spot against most vehicles, and make efficient use of guide. On the other hand they are a pain to chew through thanks to their invuln and considerable stats for the price. Add Alaitoc or Ulthwe and they're a pain to shut down.
I sometimes went with 6 shuricannons as i don't own Vypers. If i had three of those with the current pointscosts i'd leave shuriken and advancing on objectives to them.

 Galef wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I'm not sure if you have to dice off to determine which player uses pre-game move strats first though. Might come up if you play vs the same Blood Angels opponent again.

I'm under the impression that Strats can be used a reaction to events, regardless of sequencing, so long as the Strat guidelines are met. So I only use the Strat because he rolled high enough on his Advance to make me worry. The timing was valid for my Strat, so it could be used.
But even if we rolled off in this case, I think the outcome would have been the same. I would have placed the SGs so that even with a 5-6" Advance, the DC could not Fly over the SGs and thus had to stop 1" in front of them.

-

A roll off would have been required. Page 178 of the rulebook in the sidebar to the left "Sequencing". Both Forlorn Fury and Phantasm stratagems have the wording "start of the battle but before the first round". This means you both have to declare all your stratagems that you are using pre-first turn (such as this case) and roll off to see who executes theirs first.

It's a wierd one. I don't think Galefs example broke any rules- he used his stratagem at the appropriate time. If both players want to wait for the other player to declare, then a dice off seems sensible.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
It's a wierd one. I don't think Galefs example broke any rules- he used his stratagem at the appropriate time. If both players want to wait for the other player to declare, then a dice off seems sensible.

I was just pointing out the obscure rule that rarely comes into play I break rules unwittingly every single game so I'm more guilty of rules violating than most!

I do wonder how that works tho. The fairest way is for both to secretly write down what if anything they will use beforehand. Used to come into play a lot with the pre FAQ Eldar Rangers rule when fighting something like Alpha Legion or guard with Scout Sentinels.

 Ovechkin8 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I'm not sure if you have to dice off to determine which player uses pre-game move strats first though. Might come up if you play vs the same Blood Angels opponent again.

I'm under the impression that Strats can be used a reaction to events, regardless of sequencing, so long as the Strat guidelines are met. So I only use the Strat because he rolled high enough on his Advance to make me worry. The timing was valid for my Strat, so it could be used.
But even if we rolled off in this case, I think the outcome would have been the same. I would have placed the SGs so that even with a 5-6" Advance, the DC could not Fly over the SGs and thus had to stop 1" in front of them.

-

A roll off would have been required. Page 178 of the rulebook in the sidebar to the left "Sequencing". Both Forlorn Fury and Phantasm stratagems have the wording "start of the battle but before the first round". This means you both have to declare all your stratagems that you are using pre-first turn (such as this case) and roll off to see who executes theirs first.

The problem is that I would not have used my Strat unless he used his. The use of Forlorn Fury "triggered" the use of Phantasm.
And Sequencing doesn't really work here because it requires it to be a particular players turn, yet this all happened before the first battle round began.

-

 Galef wrote:

 Ovechkin8 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I'm not sure if you have to dice off to determine which player uses pre-game move strats first though. Might come up if you play vs the same Blood Angels opponent again.

I'm under the impression that Strats can be used a reaction to events, regardless of sequencing, so long as the Strat guidelines are met. So I only use the Strat because he rolled high enough on his Advance to make me worry. The timing was valid for my Strat, so it could be used.
But even if we rolled off in this case, I think the outcome would have been the same. I would have placed the SGs so that even with a 5-6" Advance, the DC could not Fly over the SGs and thus had to stop 1" in front of them.

-

A roll off would have been required. Page 178 of the rulebook in the sidebar to the left "Sequencing". Both Forlorn Fury and Phantasm stratagems have the wording "start of the battle but before the first round". This means you both have to declare all your stratagems that you are using pre-first turn (such as this case) and roll off to see who executes theirs first.

The problem is that I would not have used my Strat unless he used his. The use of Forlorn Fury "triggered" the use of Phantasm.
And Sequencing doesn't really work here because it requires it to be a particular players turn, yet this all happened before the first battle round began.

-

Yep! Probably needs a further FAQ! But in the fairest sense you both have to probably declare at the same time or else the person who declares second seems to get the advantage.

But even then a roll off would be required to see who would do their first. According to the rulebook at least. Its rare it comes up tho

"If these things occur before or after the start of the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved"

So Agents of Vect is at the whim of a roll off? Because that doesn't "trigger" until another strat is used. But what you are suggesting is that since they happen at the same time, sequencing would give the player whose turn it is the ability to choose which is resolved first.
So if a Knight uses the +1 invul strat and you try to counter it, Agents of Vect will obviously be chosen by the Knight player to be resolved first, and thus allow them to use their strat.

That's silly.

He chose to use Forlorn Fury and began to resolve it, getting a 5" Advance. That prompted me to counter with Phantasm.
Are you saying that because he began to resolve his Strat, I missed my opportunity to use Phantasm?
Because the timing was still there for me to use it. And forcing us to back track and roll off may have altered his Advance roll, which clearly would favored me and thus been unfair.
No, I am pretty sure we did it correctly. The only different way we might have done it was for me to declare Phantasm before he began resolving his move.

-

 Galef wrote:
So Agents of Vect is at the whim of a roll off? Because that doesn't "trigger" until another strat is used. But what you are suggesting is that since they happen at the same time, sequencing would give the player whose turn it is the ability to choose which is resolved first.
So if a Knight uses the +1 invul strat and you try to counter it, Agents of Vect will obviously be chosen by the Knight player to be resolved first, and thus allow them to use their strat.

That's silly.

He chose to use Forlorn Fury and began to resolve it, getting a 5" Advance. That prompted me to counter with Phantasm.
Are you saying that because he began to resolve his Strat, I missed my opportunity to use Phantasm?
Because the timing was still there for me to use it. And forcing us to back track and roll off may have altered his Advance roll, which clearly would favored me and thus been unfair.
No, I am pretty sure we did it correctly. The only different way we might have done it was for me to declare Phantasm before he began resolving his move.

-

No way. It only applies to things that happen at the same time (specifically "before the battle begins" or "at the start of X phase"

For things like Vect they usually specifically say "use this strat just after your opponent has spent CPs to use a stratagem"

Phantasm has no such wording. In fact many times its used regardless of whether the opponent has something that's used "after deployment but before the battle begins". In other words Phantasm is more than just a reactive stratagem.

So yeah you have to both declare if you are using any such stratagems (or activating some models ability ie "scout sentinels") and then roll off if BOTH of you are using at least 1.

Reading the Sequencing side bar specifically addresses things like this IMO. I don't see any gray area outside of the declaration order.


Take for instance a mirror match between 2 craftworld eldar players. Who has to declare they are using "phantasm" first? That's why the sequencing side bar was put in to address things like this. It sure could be more clear saying that players need to simultaneously declare which strats/unit abilities they are going to use like this.

I'll certainly grant if both player are using pre-game strats, you should roll off for which player resolves which first, like 2 Eldar players using Phantasm. But there is no way you have to roll off before anything is declared.

I did not intend to use Phantasm (because I already deployed my entire army second) until he declared Forlorn Fury. Now, we should have rolled off at that point to see who resolves which first, but since it really would not have made any changes, we didn't think of it.
His DC were going to move as far forward as he could, and I was going to redeploy to put my SGs as a roadblock.

I see your point about rolling off to resolve, but I don't think I have to declare Phantasm until hearing that Forloirn fury was to be used as well. Then we'd roll off

-

Vect is an example of a Stratagem being a valid trigger for a stratagem.

I'm not sure how the rules are intended to work out, but I always assumed that, unless there was a rule specifying otherwise, you could react with any valid action.

A good question for YMDC.

Re: who is using "Phantasm" first? Depends on declaration, I would think.

If both declare they want to use it immediately, you roll off, as both decided to do the same thing.

If the second player declares Phantasm in response to the first, then second uses Phantasm after the first; it's an action in response to the first player using phantasm.

If they both declare they'll use Phantasm in response to eachother? Neither. They can't react to what noone has done. Each player must decide to either use it and be reacted to or not use it.

Not sure if thsoe are the rules, but they're how I would have played it.

Galef,

Let's say I'm the blood angel player. Why do I not have the right to see if you are using Phantasm and then react to whether or not I want to use Forlorn Fury? Perhaps I ONLY want to use it if you DON'T want to use phantasm? Why should it be fair only for the Eldar player in this case? There is no wording in phantasm that suggests this nor is there wording on Forlorn Fury that does.

Bharring,

What happens if both players wait indefinitely before the other declares which strats they are using? Obviously the advantage would belong to the person who is reactive...why not then just have a staring contest to see who flinches first?


The best solution is to have both players secretly write down which ones they plan on using if any. Then they reveal at same time. Then they roll off for order if they both had at least 1 thing. Its tough luck if someone only wanted to use a stratagem if the other player did.

 Ovechkin8 wrote:
Galef,

Let's say I'm the blood angel player. Why do I not have the right to see if you are using Phantasm and then react to whether or not I want to use Forlorn Fury? Perhaps I ONLY want to use it if you DON'T want to use phantasm? Why should it be fair only for the Eldar player in this case? There is no wording in phantasm that suggests this nor is there wording on Forlorn Fury that does.

Easy solution:
If BA player wants to use FF, they declare it, then Eldar player can declare P as a reaction
If Eldar player declares P, the BA can then declare FF as a reaction.

In either case, the player who intended on doing X did so and the other player reacted. I agree both situations would THEN require a reroll to determine which is resolved
But why should either have to send the CPs on a Strat they were not going to use until the situation of the game changes?

-

Unrelated Stratagem question, but does Forewarned trigger off of things like "Da Jump", or is it literally only valid vs. deepstrike as it refers to units set up from "reinforcements"?

"What happens if both players wait indefinitely before the other declares which strats they are using?"
What happens when you want to wait to select the next shooting unit until after your opponent uses RIS? Nothing, if he doesn't want to use RIS.

In this case, gameplay would proceed. If neither are using Phantom/Fury, then the before-game is over, and it's time to move on.

I'll start a YMDC.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Unrelated Stratagem question, but does Forewarned trigger off of things like "Da Jump", or is it literally only valid vs. deepstrike as it refers to units set up from "reinforcements"?

Reinforcements does not mean 'Reserves'. Its more equal to the old term 'deepstrike'. I dislike that they've used a term that sounds so much like reserve forces to refer to something to do with movement. They then confuse things even further by using the term "Reinforcement Points" occasionally when talking about the points you might keep as extra for Daemon summoning etc.

Basically reinforcements covers any time where you set up a unit on the battle field more than 9 inches away from the enemy. The description of Reinforcements (on the movement phase page) is very broad in scope and covers all phases and circumstances as far as I can read. So yes, Forewarned can be used when an Ork player used 'Da jump'.

In the other thread Galef brought up an interesting point.

If all 'before the first turn' must be declared at the same time ...due to some inference from the FAQ on other sequencing......then that would totally nerf the use of the most used stratagem..: Command Re-roll.

Obviously you can choose to use that stratagem after the others have been resolved. So It leads to a conclusion that other strategems could follow suit in that part of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On ANOTHER note. I think I will be facing off vs my first Tau list since 3rd ed. My opponent is normally top 3 in every tournament and has played Guard, Dark Eldar and Tau since 3rd.I beat him my last game and maybe 1 other time in all those years since 3rd.

What should I watch out for and what should I target???

I will be taking a highly mobile mech-dar list.

I'm just starting Eldar and was wondering if there is a Warlock equivalent to a Farseer? That is is there a warlock that can cast 2 spells and 2 denies. I am aware of the council but I'm really looking for only 1 model with a reasonable point cost (140-170).

The best you can get is a SpiritSeer or a BoneSinger. Unless you go with Harlequins and take a ShadowSeer.

I miss the days of having a Benethai Familiar with my Harli Shadowseers.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I'm just starting Eldar and was wondering if there is a Warlock equivalent to a Farseer? That is is there a warlock that can cast 2 spells and 2 denies. I am aware of the council but I'm really looking for only 1 model with a reasonable point cost (140-170).

Nope, only the Farseer. All other single spellcasters in Craftworlds can cast/deny 1 spell.

Where do I find Bone singers (which book)?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Where do I find Bone singers (which book)?

The bonesinger is hard to adquire now (since it's a limited release model), the rules may come in some PDF format in warcom, but it's pretty much a warlock that only can cast smite or heal 1d3 wounds in vehicles/wraith constructs, for the points cost you are better going off with a Spiritseer or Warlock most of the time.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/ENG_Bonesinger.pdf

The 'before first turn' stuff brought up here is being debated in a YMDC thread.

 Lord Perversor wrote:
The bonesinger is hard to adquire now (since it's a limited release model), the rules may come in some PDF format in warcom, but it's pretty much a warlock that only can cast smite or heal 1d3 wounds in vehicles/wraith constructs, for the points cost you are better going off with a Spiritseer or Warlock most of the time.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/ENG_Bonesinger.pdf

Thanks for the info. I agree he's not worth 70 points but the model looks great.

Best way to double-Farseer?

I already have a Farseer Skyrunner, who I usually take as my Biel-Tan Warlord (so “Natural Leader” and “Spirit Stone”) with Doom and Executioner, and he gets a lot of work done by himself. Also just finished painting a squadron of Vypers who will act as his ablative shield as he zips around the battlefield while benefitting from his passive “Natural Leader” warlord trait.

But I’m waiting on a 2nd Farseer, this one on foot (actually the original Eldrad model - I want to convert it into a generic Farseer like the one GW did back in ‘98!), and I don’t know what powers to give him.

I’m thinking Guide and Fortune, and keep him in the back field buffing my long-range units. Or should I mix up the powers?

Then again, if I take a Hemlock then maybe I should consider Mindwar... but on which Farseer?

Thanks for reading!

Mind War is probably best on the Jetseer since he will have the mobility to go hunting enemy characters. If you go this route, consider adding some Swooping Hawks since they give nearby units +1Ld. Every Mortal Wound helps.

I would probably go Doom and Mindwar on the Jetseer and Guide and Fortune on the Footseer but a bit of experimentation may help determine if this works best in practice.

I find faolchus wing works great with a, formerly, footslogging farseer.
If you've got something worth guiding and protecting I'd stick to those powers but mind war is a fun power too, just requires more investment.

So my list has only 10 CPs for an ITC tournament. It is my first of such.

My Warp Jump Autarch Warlord has an Avenger Shuriken Catapult. Is it worth spending 1 CP to get an additional relic....I was think Star of Vaul to permit him to have 4 shuriken 18" shots? He will be in the middle of my mech dar list

And I was taking Seer of the Shifting Vector or should I take Incomparable Hunter. {I was thinking that most characters would laugh off 4 shuriken shots).

 admironheart wrote:
So my list has only 10 CPs for an ITC tournament. It is my first of such.

My Warp Jump Autarch Warlord has an Avenger Shuriken Catapult. Is it worth spending 1 CP to get an additional relic....I was think Star of Vaul to permit him to have 4 shuriken 18" shots? He will be in the middle of my mech dar list

And I was taking Seer of the Shifting Vector or should I take Incomparable Hunter. {I was thinking that most characters would laugh off 4 shuriken shots).

Sadly the Codex Faq deny you such posibility.

Page 123 – Blazing Star of Vaul
Change the first sentence to read:‘Model with a shuriken pistol or twin shuriken catapult only.

If you have Spare points, the Dark reaper launcher it's your best option, or the Swooping hawk Lasblaster for a bit of anti horde shooting,

Seer of shifting Vector it's a nice Warlord trait that can help if you plan to stick him into melee, also Fate's messenger it's a good option if you feel it's going to take some damage.

 Lord Perversor wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
So my list has only 10 CPs for an ITC tournament. It is my first of such.

My Warp Jump Autarch Warlord has an Avenger Shuriken Catapult. Is it worth spending 1 CP to get an additional relic....I was think Star of Vaul to permit him to have 4 shuriken 18" shots? He will be in the middle of my mech dar list

And I was taking Seer of the Shifting Vector or should I take Incomparable Hunter. {I was thinking that most characters would laugh off 4 shuriken shots).

Sadly the Codex Faq deny you such posibility.

Page 123 – Blazing Star of Vaul
Change the first sentence to read:‘Model with a shuriken pistol or twin shuriken catapult only.

If you have Spare points, the Dark reaper launcher it's your best option, or the Swooping hawk Lasblaster for a bit of anti horde shooting,

Seer of shifting Vector it's a nice Warlord trait that can help if you plan to stick him into melee, also Fate's messenger it's a good option if you feel it's going to take some damage.

It actually doesn't stop him doing it, the Autarch does have a shuriken pistol and the second sentence which is unchanged states that any shuriken weapon can be upgraded.