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karandrasss wrote:
What if there is no big target that requires 3 Fire Prisms? Then you're left with 1 that can shoot, 2 that may be able to shoot but have to take a penalty to hit, maybe even shoot only once instead of twice.

Yes that might happen but with a bit of foresight you can avoid most of those sorts of issues. I enjoy the little minigame within the game how how best to position my 3 FPs to maximize results while minimizing the risks. Don't forget that they have a pretty good range of firing modes making them effective enough against just about any target even if it isn't their most ideal. Can't say that about a CHE for example.

What would you suggest people use instead?

To quote my boss, "All I'm hearing is problems, give me solutions!"

Spartacus wrote:
Warwalkers don't really compare at all.

WWs pay same 40 points per lance as CH lol.

Four do ~6 damage, maxed out squad with Guide kills a T7 tank a turn.

The problem is penalty to shoot when moving, positioning, range, that they can be charged, survivability, etc.
Which is why everyone plays flyers - they simply provide you more options in combat. And Alaitoc of course.

I used to run 2 Fire Prisms for a while, but my regular opponents soon figured out that killing one of them more than halved their combined firepower, so now I run 3.

With 3, Linked Fire becomes possibly the most cost effective stratagem in the game. The rerolls are of course a massive buff, but the ability to share LoS is almost as important. It's very hard to hide from all 3 when deployed properly, and the -1 to hit for moving one of them 8" is perfectly acceptable cost to pay when necessary. Don't forget you have the option to jump one 16" to make a character the closest target (that can really upset people).

I've never lacked targets for the strat to be worth it.

I wouldn't call that stratagem really cost effective, because without it Fire Prisms are, well, just not effective at all. You pay to make FPs comparable to other options in the Codex, and get something extra out of this (like great range), but without stratagem, FPs are pretty bad.

I think if you have to pay CP to make unit work it's not very effective.

That's a fair criticism of Prisms, but almost doubling the damage output of 3 units, whilst letting two of them shoot round corners, is more than you usually get for 1CP.

I have to agree, the 1CP is great value for the cost.

The whole point of CPs are to make units effective and sparing one CP per round is pretty decent considering the amount of CP you can get and potentially farm back.

I usually find CP pretty tight in my Craftworld lists, I've only recently started experimenting with double battalions.

I am planning to test my first brigade list out soon though, which can easily keep the Prisms linked all game:



15 CP will be a real treat. Linked Fire and Seer Council every turn, liberal use of LFR and FAF, with the option to use WWP, Entrenched Positions and Phantasm as much as needed. It's more of a fun list, although I have found Footdar to be more effective than I expected.

Spartacus wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
What if there is no big target that requires 3 Fire Prisms? Then you're left with 1 that can shoot, 2 that may be able to shoot but have to take a penalty to hit, maybe even shoot only once instead of twice.

Yes that might happen but with a bit of foresight you can avoid most of those sorts of issues. I enjoy the little minigame within the game how how best to position my 3 FPs to maximize results while minimizing the risks. Don't forget that they have a pretty good range of firing modes making them effective enough against just about any target even if it isn't their most ideal. Can't say that about a CHE for example.

What would you suggest people use instead?

To quote my boss, "All I'm hearing is problems, give me solutions!"

Flyers sadly. I wish the codex was more balanced.

Personally, I take 3 Prims AND 3 Flyers. The Prisms can fill multiple rolls and I really like that versatility. They have a lot of potential, and that can often draw fire away from my Flyers, so that's a bonus.

Even when there aren't big targets, the Prisms don't have to Link Fire, or rather I don't have to LF all 3. 2 can LF to down a "medium" target, leaving the 3rd as a "clean-up" option if needed
Sure it's not as efficient without LF, but if 2 Prisms are enough to remove a target, allowing the 3rd to fire at something else is a bonus IMO.

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Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I usually find CP pretty tight in my Craftworld lists, I've only recently started experimenting with double battalions.

I am planning to test my first brigade list out soon though, which can easily keep the Prisms linked all game:

Spoiler:

Alaitoc Brigade

Farseer, Doom, Guide
Spiritseer, Protect/Jinx, Warlord, reroll Psy tests
Warlock, Quicken

5x Dire Avengers
5x Dire Avengers
5x Dire Avengers
5x Dire Avengers
5x Dire Avengers
5x Dire Avengers

10x Howling Banshees, Ex + Executioner
10x Striking Scorpions, Ex + Claw
8x Fire Dragons, Ex

10x Swooping Hawks, Ex
9x Shining Spears, Ex + Laser Lance
5x Warp Spiders, Ex + 2x Death Spinner

Fire Prism
Fire Prism
Fire Prism

15 CP will be a real treat. Linked Fire and Seer Council every turn, liberal use of LFR and FAF, with the option to use WWP, Entrenched Positions and Phantasm as much as needed. It's more of a fun list, although I have found Footdar to be more effective than I expected.

I havent been able to come up with a brigade list i like at 1750 yet. Im working towards a dual battalion.. gotta build & paint some more DA's & storm guardians.

I've been mulling 3 Prisms 3 Flyers since they killed Ynnari, but my meta is somewhat competitive, and I can think of a lot of counters/tough situations for Prisms. Flip side is 50% of the deployment maps are long table sides, where Prisms will really shine.

karandrasss wrote:
I've been mulling 3 Prisms 3 Flyers since they killed Ynnari, but my meta is somewhat competitive, and I can think of a lot of counters/tough situations for Prisms. Flip side is 50% of the deployment maps are long table sides, where Prisms will really shine.

Admittedly I haven't played as much 8E as I would like, but the only game I've lost with my 3 Prisms/3 Flyers list was against a Triple Renegade Knight, T-sons list.
What clinched that game for my opponent was his Flying DP and 30 Tzaangors. I couldn't deal with them AND the Knights at the same time. I was able to drop 2 of the Knights early on, but buy that time the Tzanngors dropped in and started charging and fighting twice.
He also managed to keep 1 infantry model alive and surrounded so I couldn't fall back and shoot the Tzaangors

It was brutal, but aside from that match-up, 3 Prisms and 3 Flyers has been my competitive go-to list

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 Shadenuat wrote:
I think if you have to pay CP to make unit work it's not very effective.

Captain Smash says "Hi!"

 Karhedron wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
I think if you have to pay CP to make unit work it's not very effective.

Captain Smash says "Hi!"

Warlocks near Farseers also say "Hi!"

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 Karhedron wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
I think if you have to pay CP to make unit work it's not very effective.

Captain Smash says "Hi!"

Yep, I think a brief look at the competitive scene in the last few months proves that statement incorrect pretty fast.

Its 1CP anyway, not like a Castellan or whatever where you're spend bucketloads every turn.

Hmmmm cp adds value to certain tactics and makes certain tactics possible where before they would not be. Whats the point of having CP if you dont spend it?

The way I see it you can create your army to be heavy strat reliant and have a battle plan in advance for your CP spend without wiggle room, or make it strat un-reliant and spend the CPs on re-rolls. Or soemthing in between which is where I like to sit.

karandrasss wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Sorry, but prisms are outstanding. With the cheap 1CP linked fire strat and shoot twice stationary they do stellar work. I have 2 currently but have a 3rd built and ready for paint.

What are you playing against? It takes 320pts of them and 1CP to kill a Predator. Meanwhile T7 makes them vulnerable to most anti-tank, without invuln saves.

Took mine to LVO and they were always outstanding. With 2 Hemlocks up close and these at range, plus a wave serpent with axe guard in them, target priority was difficult. As Alaitoc, they always earned their points. Even the dispersed shot was useful when playing Orks. 2D6 S6 is AP-3 is basically a suncannon (granted no 2D).
Definitely a huge fan of the prism.

What exactly Orks have that Prisms can earn back their points shooting a dispersed shot?

Does anyone happen to know if Dire Avengers are any good at the moment?

Also, regarding the Dire Avenger Exarch, are any of the melee options worth it?

(I'm still playing around with the idea of adding a small, Ynnari-Eldar detachment to my DE army and Dire Avengers seem to be the only Eldar troops with any melee potential.)

They are alright, but they have no melee potential whatsoever.

How do you 3x Prism players deal with Dawn of War/short table side deployments? So many things can cripple the linked fire shooting so easily.

 Shadenuat wrote:
What exactly Orks have that Prisms can earn back their points shooting a dispersed shot?

anything i want, he never got close to my tanks so they could unload 2D6 S6 hits on him over several turns. It's better than a lascannon any day of the week when just facing hordes. It's multi-use makes it more effective against a variety of opponents. If I had brightlances instead, they'd be useless.

 vipoid wrote:
Does anyone happen to know if Dire Avengers are any good at the moment?

Also, regarding the Dire Avenger Exarch, are any of the melee options worth it?

I prefer Dire Avengers to Guardians. If you want small, cheap squads for CP farming, 5 Avengers are cheaper than 10 Guardians. Their improved range means they can shoot without automatically getting charged next turn. They are a bit tougher too.

They are nothing special but we need Troops for CPs and I find a mix of Avengers and Rangers works best for me. I don't think the melee options are worth it really. The Shimmershield has some value but a 5++ only kicks in if the enemy is firing Ap-2 or better weapons at you (or AP-3 if you are in cover). If you opponent is turning his big guns on lowly Avengers then the game is probably not going your way. I prefer the second catapult on the Exarch as it is nice firepower boost and pretty cheap.

I sometimes run 10-man squads in Transports or even in the webway to take Objectives, particularly with the CA2018 missions that use Continuous scoring. Not as efficient as 20 guardians for dropping a Shuriken bomb but if you are playing for objectives rather than tabling, the better range and durability come to the fore.

The key to keeping Avengers alive if you want to score objectives is to present the enemy with a range of more dangerous targets (not hard for Eldar to do). If you are playing a game without continuous scoring, they can work well be screening your more dangerous units from assault.

Against enemies that like to get close, I often run Avengers in Serpents for layered defense. I castle up the army with Reapers, Fire Prisms and other shooty units in the centre, surrounded by a shell of Serpents with a mix of Avengers and Wraithguard inside. When the enemy gets close or charges, They have to get through the Serpents first. Hopefully they won't have the muscle to kill the Serpents on the charge (although some armies can). In your turn the Serpents pull back while still being able to shoot (thanks to FLY) while the units inside disembark and hose the enemy with shurikens and D-scythes.

Used well, these units can normally buy a couple more turns for your shooty units to chew through the enemy and any counter-charge units to hurt them. Target priority is the key to pulling this off but very few armies can withstand several turns of Eldar firepower while they slowly hack their way through the Wraithbone hulls of your Wave Serpents.

So many things can shoot the Fire Prisms though.

yep, but they're -1 to hit, and can get to -2 to hit with LFR. This also means that they are ignoring the hemlocks etc. Like most things, you can't look at them in a vacuum. hemlocks and serpents applying direct pressure allows the prisms to sit back and perform. My experience anyway.

Pop LFR then they shoot at the next Prism. They are great on long table side deployments but I don't see 3x Linked Fire not being crippled at least 50% of the time from deployment maps alone.

karandrasss wrote:
Pop LFR then they shoot at the next Prism.

The beauty of linked fire is that you can often get away with only exposing one prism to the enemy.

karandrasss wrote:
They are great on long table side deployments but I don't see 3x Linked Fire not being crippled at least 50% of the time from deployment maps alone.

I have played Prisms on all sorts of deployment maps and have never had serious trouble. If you are playing short table edges that means that they are starting off further from the enemy which means their range is another layer of protection.

I'm referring to short table edges as Dawn of War and the likes, might have it mixed. And no matter the terrain, you're almost guaranteed to be down to two Fire Prisms by turn two. Unless you're only fighting static gunlines or something. And I wonder about the value of just two Fire Prisms.

Flyers, Riptides, double moving DPs, etc. etc.

Static IG gunline can down you 2 Serpents first turn, which are a lot tougher than Prisms.

But it's easier to hide things from a static army.