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 grouchoben wrote:
That's why DS is essential on them imo. You want to be stacking all the buffs you can on them to make them a real force, which lends credence to 10-wraith squads. It's quite possible to buff them to the point where they're 2+/3++/5+++ (two casts and one strat: Fortune, Protect & Spirit Shield).

I've been running 6 man squads of blades and d scythes out of serpents and its pretty good.
Enhance and supreme disdain on a unit of 6 blades is hella fun!

I dont like the fact that we have to say that "if you apply xx+xx+xx buffs this unit is really good.. If I had a £1 for every time my psychic failed me id have a new cobra tank by now!

 Argive wrote:
I dont like the fact that we have to say that "if you apply xx+xx+xx buffs this unit is really good.. If I had a £1 for every time my psychic failed me id have a new cobra tank by now!

This has been a constant for Eldar for years. 6th and 7th were probably the exception... but traditionally we need psychic buff to be outstanding.

That's part of why Eldar are so much fun to play though. You can make almost any unit good by stacking a bunch of buffs on them.

Everyone on the internet told me that running a scorpion grav-tank is like intentionally throwing the game. But ever since I started running it with a proper build based on maximizing durability and threat saturation I've been smashing up semi-competitive and competitive lists all around me for the past few months with ease.

Kind of on the same topic, I've been trying to run a footdar list and can't decide on a designated anti-tank unit, would 5 swooping hawks and 5 fire dragons be better than just flat 6 dark reapers?

(5 hawks to even out the points and to clear chaff for DSing Fire dragons)

It's a 1000 pt footdar list, that's why the numbers are so small XD

Fire dragons in a star/vectored engines serpent would be better since you want something to bring them within 6" to get the extra damage. Otherwise 6 dark reapers is probably bettter. Five swooping hawks aren't going to clear chaff in useful numbers. That's not really what hawks are for.

Everyone on the internet told me that running a scorpion grav-tank is like intentionally throwing the game

I've been running my Scorpion will hilarious success. Going up against Imperium Soup lists with a Single Knight is almost GG from turn 1

 slave.entity wrote:
Fire dragons in a star/vectored engines serpent would be better since you want something to bring them within 6" to get the extra damage. Otherwise 6 dark reapers is probably bettter. Five swooping hawks aren't going to clear chaff in useful numbers. That's not really what hawks are for.

Yeah I know as thinking of doing that but I wanted to make my list all infantry (and some support platforms) so I was looking for options there. I don't have dark reapers but I do agree that they are the better option here

NexAddo wrote:

Everyone on the internet told me that running a scorpion grav-tank is like intentionally throwing the game

I've been running my Scorpion will hilarious success. Going up against Imperium Soup lists with a Single Knight is almost GG from turn 1

Yeah I've been finding any armor-based list has very little chance against a buffed scorpion. I've played against triple knights a few times and my list generally kills a knight a turn. FW dreads, knights, orions, whatever. If it doesn't include a component involving resilient hordes, it's probably GG. The scorpion might be the ultimate superheavy tank in 8th edition. All thanks to the psychic phase.

I've yet to play against Iron Hands though. Curious whether or not a scorpion and 3 crimson hunter exarchs can kill an IH leviathan in one round.

Yeah I've been finding any armor-based list has very little chance against a buffed scorpion. I've played against triple knights a few times and my list generally kills a knight a turn. FW dreads, knights, orions, whatever. If it doesn't include a component involving resilient hordes, it's probably GG. The scorpion might be the ultimate superheavy tank in 8th edition. All thanks to the psychic phase.

I've yet to play against Iron Hands though. Curious whether or not a scorpion and 3 crimson hunter exarchs can kill an IH leviathan in one round.

When do they have to play the half damage stratagem? Start of shooting phase, when their unit is declared, or when weapons are assigned?

You can catch some people out by targeting two units one with your scatter laser and the other with your big gun.

I also have Vect in my army if need be.

The stratagem is called Duty Eternal and it's used when an IH vehicle is chosen as a target. Like LFR basically.

The stratagem is called Duty Eternal and it's used when an IH vehicle is chosen as a target. Like LFR basically.

No it is dramatically different from LFR.

You use it when it is the target of an attack. So you don't need to declare which weapon you are shooting with it first. LFR you do.

So if you target two (As you have two guns) he has to choose which one he uses Duty Eternal on. Then you get to shoot the other one.

No, the wording is exactly the same. You use both when your model is "chosen as the target for an enemy attack". LFR works the same way.

No, the wording is exactly the same. You use both when your model is "chosen as the target for an enemy attack". LFR works the same way.

Check the FAQ.

Duty Eternal Is worded in the same was as Rotate Ion Shields.

"Chosen as the target of the attack"

LFR
"is targeted by a ranged or melee weapon"

Wasn't there FAQ that now you always declare weapons as part of the attack?

Gangrel767 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I dont like the fact that we have to say that "if you apply xx+xx+xx buffs this unit is really good.. If I had a £1 for every time my psychic failed me id have a new cobra tank by now!

This has been a constant for Eldar for years. 6th and 7th were probably the exception... but traditionally we need psychic buff to be outstanding.

slave.entity wrote:That's part of why Eldar are so much fun to play though. You can make almost any unit good by stacking a bunch of buffs on them.

Everyone on the internet told me that running a scorpion grav-tank is like intentionally throwing the game. But ever since I started running it with a proper build based on maximizing durability and threat saturation I've been smashing up semi-competitive and competitive lists all around me for the past few months with ease.

I get that our psychic is our might.
But with limited powers you can bring with everything being so up in points, I find I am making very one trick pony lists... I.E. big blob of wraiths built for CC so needs their enhance/enrevate. and a dedicated spirit seer Or Big Blob of shining spears/warlock conclave needs all of the buffs. Just feels like leaning towards deathstar lists with fliers to maximise that efficiency because points ya know ?

At leats 1/2 farseers with Guide/doom for redundancy is an auto take. Always.

Maybe I'm just having a bad day and im salty the warlock powers are limited to infantry and bikes and the WL is a bit sucky despite being the most awesome model kit we have lol.
And then you see the SM books and supplements and youre like oh...

Wasn't there FAQ that now you always declare weapons as part of the attack?

If so I'm unaware.

Without it. You choose targets and then choose weapons.

You must shoot at least one weapon at each target you choose though so no declaring their entire army....

You choose target and at the same time you must declare how you split fire.

You choose target and at the same time you must declare how you split fire.

Unless you can quote me an FAQ then this is incorrect. (Sorry internet can come across as blunt)

You clearly have a shooting sequence and the stratagem must be done at the right time during that sequence.

Page 179 – Choose Ranged Weapons Change the last sentence of the first paragraph to read:
‘In either case, at the same time that you choose targets for the shooting unit’s attacks, you must declare how you will split the shooting unit’s shots; then resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next.’

It has been maybe 2 years since this was added to not allow tagging Knights with bolter and then shoot lascannon into second Knight.

 Argive wrote:


I get that our psychic is our might.
But with limited powers you can bring with everything being so up in points, I find I am making very one trick pony lists... I.E. big blob of wraiths built for CC so needs their enhance/enrevate. and a dedicated spirit seer Or Big Blob of shining spears/warlock conclave needs all of the buffs. Just feels like leaning towards deathstar lists with fliers to maximise that efficiency because points ya know ?

At leats 1/2 farseers with Guide/doom for redundancy is an auto take. Always.

Maybe I'm just having a bad day and im salty the warlock powers are limited to infantry and bikes and the WL is a bit sucky despite being the most awesome model kit we have lol.
And then you see the SM books and supplements and youre like oh...

Eldar still have a great time against new marines in both casual and competitive games from what I've seen so far. In competitive CWE can take Black Heart to vect the IH half damage strat. Against non-IH... well I've only played one semi-competitive game so far against a Guilliman FW dread gunline + primaris. It was a completely lopsided victory for eldar. Marines still don't really have a great answer to serpents and planes. Doesn't matter how much better their damage is, they still can't get into range.

In casual, naked wraithlords are fantastic. I ran 3 the other day against new Raven Guard and they were great because at 85pts for T8/10W/3+/5+++ with fortune they simply do not die and are dirt cheap. Deploy them aggressively and move them up the board. They will be punching marines off points for days.

EDIT: Posted this pic of my game earlier in the other thread. Wraithlords are fun. Highly recommend playing them.

What a TFG, using Bug-eyed Farseer against poor marines. Everyone knows Bug-eyed Farseer makes all marines roll 1s on their saves and run on LD checks just by looking at it.

Page 179 – Choose Ranged Weapons Change the last sentence of the first paragraph to read:
‘In either case, at the same time that you choose targets for the shooting unit’s attacks, you must declare how you will split the shooting unit’s shots; then resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next.’

It has been maybe 2 years since this was added to not allow tagging Knights with bolter and then shoot lascannon into second Knight.

Thanks man. You have just corrected an entire country as a respected TO was getting that wrong.

 Shadenuat wrote:
What a TFG, using Bug-eyed Farseer against poor marines. Everyone knows Bug-eyed Farseer makes all marines roll 1s on their saves and run on LD checks just by looking at it.

Still the best farseer sculpt, even after all these years . I am ashamed I still haven't finished painting him.

What are these scorpion builds then? What buffs stack other than fortune and lfr? I'm always game for being tempted into spending obscene amounts of money on resin...

NexAddo wrote:

Yeah I've been finding any armor-based list has very little chance against a buffed scorpion. I've played against triple knights a few times and my list generally kills a knight a turn. FW dreads, knights, orions, whatever. If it doesn't include a component involving resilient hordes, it's probably GG. The scorpion might be the ultimate superheavy tank in 8th edition. All thanks to the psychic phase.

I've yet to play against Iron Hands though. Curious whether or not a scorpion and 3 crimson hunter exarchs can kill an IH leviathan in one round.

When do they have to play the half damage stratagem? Start of shooting phase, when their unit is declared, or when weapons are assigned?

You can catch some people out by targeting two units one with your scatter laser and the other with your big gun.

I also have Vect in my army if need be.

Where that scatter laser thing works? Knights dont' anymore as GW fixed it so that you declare guns first and then IH plays rotate ion shield stratagem. Anyway doesn't work here. Best you can do is trigger it with one unit and then switch elsewhere. And of course leviathan doesn't care if he doesn't have multiple leviathans. And even then...Well you need plenty of units to make it worth with their -1 damage anyway. Necrons have it hard. Even with that they average just over 4 wounds to non protected leviathan BEFORE feel no pain(plus 1 wound vs protected leviathan) with their 3 dda. And they don't have much of other units that would trigger it...destroyers? d3 damage. They will just soak it wiht their -1 damage anyway. Pylon and 3 dda but even that combo isn't that good. Pylon averages about 3 dda vs that leviathan...Use pylon to draw stratagem and 3 dda causes about 6 and spare before FNP.

That thing soaks up firepower like sponge. Might be better to focus on tagging him on combat. Though eldars are in better shape than necrons in AT department. But consider that even 6 damage hit will go down to 2...

Tons of shots at S8, -1 or -2 and D1 would be ideal for leviathan hunting but are there such weapons? S5-S7 at a pinch but toooooons of shots and no points paid for damage ability that gets neutered badly(you need damage 5 before you cause more than 1!). 4++ so no point having more than -2 with it's 2+ save.

I've been mathing various units against IH leviathans and IH executioners with my friends. The conclusion is IH levis are a trap and not actually very competitive, though they will certainly pub-stomp like crazy. The more competitive option is likely the IH repulsor executioner.

A scorpion actually kills an IH executioner every turn on average, without doom or jinx, thanks to the magic of flat 6 damage. The CHE air wing fairs much worse since it's got mostly D3 damage guns. But if you throw in a spearhead of fire prisms or some haywire bikes eldar really shouldn't have a problem killing executioners.

Against the IH leviathan meme matchup, the right thing to do is charge it with a banshee mask autarch followed by a wave serpent and tie it up in combat forever. But if you really want to kill it all you need is a Black Heart detachment to vect Duty Eternal. Without the half damage strat the leviathan gets one-shot by a scorpion or an air wing and some mortal wounds or some fire prisms. Keep in mind, all of this happens at 36+ inches away, so the leviathan can't even get in range to shoot its guns at your planes in the following turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grouchoben wrote:
What are these scorpion builds then? What buffs stack other than fortune and lfr? I'm always game for being tempted into spending obscene amounts of money on resin...

Fortune and LFR are all you need dude. And an autarch for re-roll 1s.

Think about it. Scorpions are like knights, Alaitoc flyers, and plaguebearers all rolled into one. 20+ wounds of T8? Check. Insane, massive damage, long range weapon? Check. -2 to hit? Check. 3+/5++/5+++? Check. Oh and it also FLIES. So like with a Caladius grav-tank, it never stops shooting, and you can park it on buildings to make it immune to charges.

A scorpion has exactly 2 weaknesses preventing it from ever becoming truly top tier competitive:

1. It is essentially 700+ points invested into one, massive gun which means that's 700+ points of your list that absolutely cannot deal with hordes like 60+ plaguebearers or GSC.
2. It has no invuln and no fortune if you don't get first turn. That means if your opponent has LOS on T1, AND has a ton of long range (60+ inch), high strength, high AP guns, AND gets first turn, they can kill it before it does anything.

Both of these situations are pretty specific to truly competitive games however. So unless your playgroup is on the absolute cutting edge of the competitive meta, a scorpion will do great.

Well, a trap in what context? On say 1250 points, Leviathan is a royal seal clubber killing enemy armies without them able to do much about it, and that's without IH.

 slave.entity wrote:
that's 700+ points of your list that absolutely cannot deal with hordes like 60+ plaguebearers or GSC.

Don't forget about Forewarned! A scorpion wouldn't be such a bad asset vs GSC when you know you can tear the guts out of that big nasty unit of Abberants before they even charge.

As soon as the answer is all you need to do is soup and take x y z at army building stage just to have a chance to kill one unit that is no answer at all imo..

Usually you know that something is broken when they tell you "well just ignore that unit and fight rest of the army".