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 Galef wrote:
But is it worth dropping Alaitoc altogether? Having 3 Flyers and 2 Ranger units makes me think it might be ok since they already have -1 to be hit, but the Prisms might suffer.
Then again, with Linked Fire, you don't need 2 of them in LoS of the target so long as they can see the main Prism, which will likely NOT be in cover

It is a good question. You are losing out a bit on durability in exchange for an increase in offensive power.

The other thing to remember is that a lot of Eldar players rely heavily on Guide + Doom to force damage through. MSU units with "Master Crafters" don't really need this which means you can experiment with some of the other psychic powers in our arsenal.

 Karhedron wrote:
The other thing to remember is that a lot of Eldar players rely heavily on Guide + Doom to force damage through. MSU units with "Master Crafters" don't really need this which means you can experiment with some of the other psychic powers in our arsenal.

This is my thinking as well. I'll still want Doom in general for my 20 Guardian blob, but Expert Crafters gives me the option to not have to keep firing at the Doomed unit the most bang out of my units.
IMO, swapping Alaitoc for JUST Expert Crafters OR Masters of Concealment is not a good trade, but both combined should have just enough durability to justify the slight drop to get more self-sufficient units. Heck. those 2 traits make my lone Autarch Skyrunners that much better. Already gets the reroll 1s, but getting to reroll that 2 you roll whiel moving with a Reaper launcher is pretty sweet and he'll basically always have Doom on the Reaper launcher

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Yeah the ability to not take guide as mandatory power is pretty fresh.

Does anyone have a list of all the new psychic powers?

 Argive wrote:
Does anyone have a list of all the new psychic powers?

Sure, they are right here. The coolest thing is that Warlocks can take them instead of "Destructor" meaning they can potentially have 2 buffing powers if you want/need.

Runes of Fortune:

Ghostwalk WC6: Select 1 friendly unit within 6″ charge rolls get +2

Fateful Divergence: Warp charge 4, select one friendly Craftworld unit within 6 inches until your next psychic phase they can reroll a single hit roll wound roll or save roll.

Witch Strike: Warp charge 4, add 2 to the damage characteristic of this psyker’s melee weapons

Crushing Orb: Warp charge 6, select one enemy character within 18 and visible to the psyker, roll 3d6 each 5+ is a mortal wound

Focus Will: Warp charge 6, select a friendly craftworld psyker within 6 inches until your next psychic phase add two to any deny the witch test taken by the chosen psyker.

Impair Senses: Warp charge 6, select one enemy unit within 18 and visible to the psyker, until your next psychic phase the unit can only shoot the closest visible unit unless the target is within 18 inches

Ghostwalk is an obvious go-to power for anyone running chunky melee units.
Witchstrike could potentially be really interesting IF it applies to all the weapons in a Warlock conclave. Not sure if that is the intended effect though.

Much appreciated.

Yeah the charge one is the best one by miles.

Impair senses is a very interesting one. In theory if you could blast your warlock up the board into a hiding spot and cast on an enemy big scary shooting and present them with some warp spiders/ Guardian chaff to shoot at. But too situational.

Bit meh all in all.. Was hoping there was a hidden gem. I don't think Id take a second power if I went this discipline to be honest Stick to the 1MW smite... The re-roll save one is interesting as its only WC4. If the wraith knight could get a 4++ first turn with spirit host and always be in cover I would really consider it. Re-roll saves and fortune could make him a bit more survivable. Alas if he don't get first turn its pretty much a bye bye for him lol.

Unless the damages one applies to conclave.. I could work with that. Makes my foot conclave plan a little bit less gimpish..

I think conceal/protect or enhance are still my favourite. Especialy always in cover and protect plus fortune can make some beefy wraith guard..

I think these powers are alright actually, it gives Warlocks some toolbox flexibility and gives the player choice instead of just automatically trying to cast protect/jinx.

No one uses the 1 MW smite anyway due to the range so it really enhances the battle mage theme of Warlocks. They also save on CP so it's marginal gain but lets you focus on the big picture.

Ghostwalk replaces the Biel-Tan charge stratagem or adds to it if you really want to get into combat.

Fateful Divergence is quite nice on a tank or character where you might need a CP otherwise.

I personally don't see much use in Witch Strike, the wording reads so it targets the psyker, not the unit.

Crushing orb is a high roll power, not great.

Focus will is actually pretty good and is almost guaranteed to go off and pretty major if you can deny psychic centric armies.

Impair Senses I can't see myself using but in the event I decide to run guardian bombs again, forcing a repulsor executioner to shoot chaff is awesome.

I think I'll be replacing smite/destructor almost every time and gives some great utility to warlocks which are basically tax.

I think they're my favourite part of the supplement actually. They feel well thought-out, and as you say add a lot to Warlocks who appreciate the buff.

Crushing Orb is also 4 WC.
So half of these are cast automatically with new custom Craftworld.

Impare senses is actually quite amusing. Put it on a hemlock and fly up t1 to your opponents biggest long range unit and cast that on it.... yeah your executioner repulser can only target my hemlock at -2 to hit.... that's pretty mean lol.

Azuza001 wrote:
Impare senses is actually quite amusing. Put it on a hemlock and fly up t1 to your opponents biggest long range unit and cast that on it.... yeah your executioner repulser can only target my hemlock at -2 to hit.... that's pretty mean lol.

It is cast on an enemy unit, not a friendly unit. Still workable, but need to ensure the caster gets within 18" of target to cast.

 Sarigar wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Impare senses is actually quite amusing. Put it on a hemlock and fly up t1 to your opponents biggest long range unit and cast that on it.... yeah your executioner repulser can only target my hemlock at -2 to hit.... that's pretty mean lol.

It is cast on an enemy unit, not a friendly unit. Still workable, but need to ensure the caster gets within 18" of target to cast.

Hemlocks are spiritseers so can replace their smite with runes of fortune iirc.

I think people are massively over-rating Alaitoc now with SM Chapter Masters getting full re-rolls like Admec's Cawl.

So hitting on 4+ re-rolling is still a 75% chance to hit.
Imperial fists can get "Tesla" on their bolters, thus a natural 6 gives 3 hits, and they can re-roll all hits.

So without re-rolls, there's a 1/6 chance to get 3 hits. So on average 0.5 hits or 50% hit rate.

They have a 5/6 chance of getting a 1/6 chance of another 3 hits (re-roll any hit)

5/6 * 1/6 * 3 = 15/36

So 1/2 + 15/36 = 33/36 !

So an effective 91 % hit rate. There was a reason Necrons did not get full re-rolls. Also note, that since you get 3 hits on a **natural** 6, you can't stop it from proccing with -1 to hit like you can with Tesla.

Heavy Bolters will be 91% hit, 2 damage and -2 AP, with further +1 to wound via strats. Alaitoc fly lists are dead, most people just don't know it yet.

As a bonus Imperial Fists get to ignore cover anyway.

I have definintely noticed the huge difference that CMs make to Alaitoc flyers now, in the numarine games I've played. It's pretty damn stark. IF are way more of a problem than IH for flyer spam, to be sure.

But are there better traits for Flyers besides Alaitoc? Personally, I do think Expert Crafters and Masters of Concealment are good combos for MSU style army, but since Hemlocks auto-hit and CHE's reroll 1's to wound and reroll wounds against units with FLY, I don't see Expert Crafters as being enough of a bonus to merit losing the total -2 to be hit.

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CHEs take 2+ to hit instead, or 5++, if they go expert crafter.

 grouchoben wrote:
CHEs take 2+ to hit instead, or 5++, if they go expert crafter.

Don't they lose the reroll 1s to hit if they select either of those Exarch powers (or you have to spend a CP to add it as a second?)

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 Galef wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
CHEs take 2+ to hit instead, or 5++, if they go expert crafter.

Don't they lose the reroll 1s to hit if they select either of those Exarch powers (or you have to spend a CP to add it as a second?)

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Hitting on 2s with a pocket reroll is comparable accuracy with the number of attacks CHEs make.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
CHEs take 2+ to hit instead, or 5++, if they go expert crafter.

Don't they lose the reroll 1s to hit if they select either of those Exarch powers (or you have to spend a CP to add it as a second?)

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Hitting on 2s with a pocket reroll is comparable accuracy with the number of attacks CHEs make.

Very true. But is it worth losing the -1 to be hit on the Hemlocks.
In other words, if I have a Flyer detachment with 2 Hemlocks and 1 CHE, is it worth trading -2 to be hit for -1 to be hit + Expert Crafter and say, Master of Concealment?

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Since -1 to hit is not what it used to be, why not the FNP on 6 from Ulthwe, at least this can't be erased by simply playing against SM. I don't have the book yet, but can you take Ulthwe and Expert Crafters?

2+ with a pocket reroll is way more accurate than 3+ rerolling 1s. Hemlocks are another matter I guess. They lose the Alaitoc bonus so often though, due to range requirements.

 grouchoben wrote:
They lose the Alaitoc bonus so often though, due to range requirements.

Agreed, which is why having a single reroll to wound is tempting, even if the Master of Concealment would be lost just as often as the Alaitoc bonus

But that brings up another good question. Given that CHE really don't need to be close and thus can shirt damage, and Hemlocks are often too close for Alaitoc or MoC, what is a good second trait for a mixed flyer detachment?

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Ive been playing around with some list building..

Aiming for slamanders hand me down & Cover list.

Has anyone came up with a decent brigade with the salamanders trait? I had a play around and the troops feel like more of a tax than ever before and the elite slots don't really gel with this trait.

I'm thinking a battalion and a couple spearheads/outriders or maybe even all spearheads/outriders. With the free re-rolls, I feel there isn't all that much need for CP or autarch's.

The two best imo are the good old rangers, and 8-man storm guardians with a melta. That squad loves the rerolls.

Yeah but nothing in the elite slots seems to fit those traits for the brigade. Outside of maybe small unit for shadow spectres. Cant remember what's their min unit size.
Its just that everything is so darn expensive.. I have big hopes for CA to lowe costs of AML or BL and our infantry.. a brigade with no tanks outside of 3 vypers comes out around 1500pts :(


I think I will give up on the brigade and try dual battalion. Wraith seer with D cannon sounds like fun.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Impare senses is actually quite amusing. Put it on a hemlock and fly up t1 to your opponents biggest long range unit and cast that on it.... yeah your executioner repulser can only target my hemlock at -2 to hit.... that's pretty mean lol.

It is cast on an enemy unit, not a friendly unit. Still workable, but need to ensure the caster gets within 18" of target to cast.

Hemlocks are spiritseers so can replace their smite with runes of fortune iirc.

Great point! I didn't think of that when I read the previous post.

Are any of the new craftworld traits worth taking over the old ones from the other craftworlds?

Or is the invulnerable save +6 and the -1 ap on shuriken weapons not worth taking over uthwe rules?

 Asherian Command wrote:
Are any of the new craftworld traits worth taking over the old ones from the other craftworlds?

Or is the invulnerable save +6 and the -1 ap on shuriken weapons not worth taking over uthwe rules?

Jury is out. Alitoic seems to have been diminished considerably because of marines and all re-rolls.

The top tier traits seem to be:

Ignore cover
Always in Cover
Salamnder re-rolls
Shuriken range
Shuriken Ap
Charge bonus

In certain builds they can be considered strong certainly. I think the salamnders re-roll in particular is very good. It allows you to go MSU with certain things without blobing up and makes everything much more reliable. .

 Argive wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Are any of the new craftworld traits worth taking over the old ones from the other craftworlds?

Or is the invulnerable save +6 and the -1 ap on shuriken weapons not worth taking over uthwe rules?

Jury is out. Alitoic seems to have been diminished considerably because of marines and all re-rolls.

The top tier traits seem to be:

Ignore cover
Always in Cover
Salamnder re-rolls
Shuriken range
Shuriken Ap
Charge bonus

In certain builds they can be considered strong certainly. I think the salamnders re-roll in particular is very good. It allows you to go MSU with certain things without blobing up and makes everything much more reliable. .

Alaitoc, despite all of the Cawl rerolls now is still the best trait by a good margin. The difference between your CHE being -1 or -2 to hit is still a big deal and increases the survivability of the army considerably.

Always in cover seems good, but you're not getting 2+ saves like Raven Guard intercessors get as they slog up the board. If you're running MSU squads they shouldn't be in LOS unless absolutely necessary or they should be sitting in a tank. The moment your dudes get into LOS, if they're a high enough threat, will be shot to pieces.

The Salamander reroll is a good trait, but Salamanders didn't see play even with the trait.

Saying this though, there is nothing stopping someone from min-maxing the hell out of the traits per detachment. Have your air wing be Alaitoc, an MSU spearhead of Dark Reapers as in cover + ignore cover, and a battalion with ignore cover + something else.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Saying this though, there is nothing stopping someone from min-maxing the hell out of the traits per detachment. Have your air wing be Alaitoc, an MSU spearhead of Dark Reapers as in cover + ignore cover, and a battalion with ignore cover + something else.

Yeah, this is where I'm at right now. Out of the 3 detachments I tend to take (Battalion, Flyer & Spearhead), I'm still thinking that at least one of those will still be Alaitoc.

But I'm torn for which. As discussed above, there is merit to having 2 Hemlocks + 1 CHE as Alaitoc, but the Always Cover + Sallie rerolls can work on them too.
I'm also torn about my Spearhead, which has 3 Prisms. The Sallie rerolls would be great for them and mean I might not have to rely on Linked Fire (and thus save some CPs). But then again, with Linked Fire, you don't need the rerolls and may get even more rerolls, so keeping them Alaitoc would seem to get the max out of them.

So, side question, if min-maxing detachments, would you keep a Spearhead with 3 Prisms Alaitoc and rely on Linked Fire, or swap for the Sallie reroll + another trait and only use Linked Fire if something big has to die?

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I think it's always worth reserving at least 3 CP for Linked Fire. It allows you to leave your fire prisms all over the board without psychic support and coupled with Alaitoc and the potential for LFR no one really goes for fire prisms (at least in my experience) unless they actually commit or have killed off your fliers.