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the cosmic serpent wrote:


I agree waveserpents are one of our more competitive options for their points cost. I don't doubt they will contribute. It just means that the scorpions+farseer+serpent will need to kill ~400pts to break even vs. ~175pts for scorpions+warlock+deepstrike.

Sorry to call you out specifically but I see a lot of people following this line of thinking and it's just wrong. Someone mentions a combo of units supporting each other and inevitably another poster chimes in with the total points cost of the combo to show how inefficient it is- the game just isn't that simple.

Psykers will be buffing a variety of units all game so their points investment is spread across the whole army. Wave serpents will not only be transporting their cargo, but also putting out a decent amount of firepower, dishing out a few mortal wounds, charging enemy units to lock them down or soak up overwatch, and soaking up a huge amount of damage.

The point for the Scythes is that they can also assault, and do more on the first turn for it. They're just as durable, letting them be just fine at tying enemies up, the only differences being that they can advance while also threatening enemies, can hit flyers, and can get ridiculously lethal overwatch within 8".


The only situation that really jumps out at me where ghostswords really shine is with an Iyanden Wraithbomb.

Wyldcarde wrote:
I think looking at “earning points back” and all the maths-hammer only tells one part of the story tho.

More like, Eldar have so many force multipliers that people only see the most obvious OP things first, some other things can hide in the details for a time. Like people thought warlocks were unplayable overpriced garbage in 5th, until people began playing dual jet councils. Or the banshees just during this first year ETC.

I think psychic buffs are largely understandable as buffs to single units. It's pretty rare that I get great use out of Fortune, Conceal, or Guide for more than one unit in a game. I expect that Protect and Quicken will be the same. The real offensive benefit of buff psykers rather than buffs attached to units is that Farseers and Spiritseers can switch over to Smite when they run out of good buff targets. Debuffs are the ones that work synergistically with multiple units in interesting ways. We all know how well Doom can work. Jinx is probably similar. That said, of course there's a huge opportunity cost with psychic powers in that you can only use them once each turn. There are lots of units that would be a good target for Guide or Protect or Quicken if only there wasn't some other unit which benefits far more.

But Serpents are absolutely a model that shouldn't be judged by how much they kill, although it should be noted that they generally compare pretty well with Dire Avengers if they also fire off their Shield. Serpents tying up scary shooting units is game-winning. It's possible that they don't cut it for super-competitive tournament play, where every gunline is going to have huge light infantry screens, but they do great work in even fairly competitive pick-up games.

The Shining Spear big has bitten and I was thinking about adding this to my Alaitoc Battalion (which features a means to Quicken the unit listed).

Saim-Hann Outrider

HQ:
Autarch Skyrunner (WotRW)
Laser Lance, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Falcon’s Swiftness, Shimmerplume
[108]

Fast Attack:
(9) Shining Spears (Quicken)
Star Lance
[281]

(9) Shining Spears (WW)
Star Lance
[281]

(9) Shining Spears (WW)
Star Lance
[281]

[951]

The ones out of the Webway re-rolling charges should make it. The Quicken unit has to clear a good distance though, depending on deployment. If things don't look guaranteed for them to get into it on an average charge roll, I can WotRW them and let the Autarch hang back a bit and charge in second turn - more of a priority to get the bigger squads in. Just depends a lot on deployment. Also debating on the Swiftness vs Eye for trait - though that extra 2" may make a difference of him charging at all vs being able to lock out Overwatches by charging first.

Is this too silly? It has some good firepower across a variety of targets and can charge in with decent combat ability (not great, but the AP and damage make each hit a bit more hefty). With Fly, it can jump over lighter screens that aren't perfectly positioned or aren't high enough in numbers. This is especially true if they want to leave the 4.1" consolidation gap between the screen and the core units, as that is plenty of room to land in.

This is like a major glass cannon approach - but is it viable?

Another question (for which I already expect the answer).

Is the Falcon -at it's new reduced price- still a sin against humanity, I mean, Aeldarity?
I like it's design far more than the Wave Serpent, and it's transport capacity should be enough to keep 5 Dark Reapers + Yvraine inside as alpha-strike protection or potential relocation.

So my thoughts on the Avatar are the same as yours. My first game with him saw zero shooting vs him even when it was possible. He was just swamped with guardsmen and he killed 20 points per fight phase an my opponent was more than happy with that....

Can someone help me out here. I was thinking of webway strike with 20 guardians and 2 platforms.

But what about a use of the Webway and 24 Storm Guardians.? With 2 fusion guns or not ....even with chainswords....is there any tactical use for this maneuver?

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

the cosmic serpent wrote:


I agree waveserpents are one of our more competitive options for their points cost. I don't doubt they will contribute. It just means that the scorpions+farseer+serpent will need to kill ~400pts to break even vs. ~175pts for scorpions+warlock+deepstrike.

Sorry to call you out specifically but I see a lot of people following this line of thinking and it's just wrong. Someone mentions a combo of units supporting each other and inevitably another poster chimes in with the total points cost of the combo to show how inefficient it is- the game just isn't that simple.

Psykers will be buffing a variety of units all game so their points investment is spread across the whole army. Wave serpents will not only be transporting their cargo, but also putting out a decent amount of firepower, dishing out a few mortal wounds, charging enemy units to lock them down or soak up overwatch, and soaking up a huge amount of damage.

I don’t disagree with you. I see this line of thought a lot too and I was using it as an example of how some people approach their “competitive” list building. I am not saying this is a view I take just a view that people have.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

This is like a major glass cannon approach - but is it viable?

I don't think it's a glass cannon build, really, and Spears hit hard enough that it'll work well in a lot of games. Spears are about as durable as Marines in the open against most things. That's not exactly hard to kill, but they're not made of paper. A Spear is more durable than a Dire Avenger in cover vs bolters. It's really only overcharged plasma that you're very scared of, and the 4++ helps a lot there.

I would say that you don't get that much out of being Saim-Hann except for access to their stratagem. The Attribute actually doesn't synergize all that well with Spears since you really want to be within 6" to shoot laser lances anyway, and with only two units that have to make 9" charges you can get most of the same benefit by being willing to spend a CP to re-roll a die.

Some things to maybe consider:
1) The Saim-Hann stratagem on the first unit is actually going to suffice to get you close enough in many cases even without Quicken. This unit is more likely to make its charge than one of the deep strikers unless it's starting more than 31" away. Meanwhile Quicken's 18" range makes it pretty easy to cast on one of the deep strikers, letting you move up into laser lance range and basically guaranteeing a charge.

2) 3-man units of Spears are far more efficient than 9-man units because the Exarch is such a beast. You're using big units to synergize with Quicken and WWS, but especially if you end up using a different Craftworld it might make sense to take at least one of the WWS units and make it 3 3-man units which deploy on the table instead. It's true that they'll probably only get to shoot their catapults on turn 1, but they'll be a lot more durable since they're paying 13.6 ppw (almost the same as Marines) vs 14.8 for the 9-man unit, and then as Ulthwe or Alatoic they'll have a 6+++ or be harder to hit. And then when they do get into CC, they hit a lot harder vs anything other than GEQs.

 admironheart wrote:
So my thoughts on the Avatar are the same as yours. My first game with him saw zero shooting vs him even when it was possible. He was just swamped with guardsmen and he killed 20 points per fight phase an my opponent was more than happy with that....

Can someone help me out here. I was thinking of webway strike with 20 guardians and 2 platforms.

But what about a use of the Webway and 24 Storm Guardians.? With 2 fusion guns or not ....even with chainswords....is there any tactical use for this maneuver?

Sounds like you drove the Avatar right into the swamp without doing anything to bring it down, first. Shirken weaponry should make short work of guard.

Remember that eldar is all about putting the right gun where it needs to be. Avatar vs conscripts is not that.

Isn't there also a stratagem to fall back and shoot/charge afterwards? Not sure if the Avatar can leverage it off hand... But you could have gotten a melee support unit in to take over for the Avatar, then moved him out into tanks or something more valuable.

 DanielFM wrote:
Another question (for which I already expect the answer).

Is the Falcon -at it's new reduced price- still a sin against humanity, I mean, Aeldarity?
I like it's design far more than the Wave Serpent, and it's transport capacity should be enough to keep 5 Dark Reapers + Yvraine inside as alpha-strike protection or potential relocation.

The problems with the Falcon are that the Serpent does everything it can do, but better.
A Falcon with Pulse laser & Brightlance isn't as good as a Twin Bright lance Serpent because the Serpent is still cheaper, has an extra wound, has the Serpent shield.
The Falcon also HAS to take at least 1 Heavy weapon (the Pulse laser) meaning it cannot be as efficient as an all Shuricannon Serpent that can move (including Advance) without penalty. At least 1 of the Falcons weapons will either be -1 to hit or can't fire at all.
And if you plan on sitting the Falcon back to mitigate this, why not just take the superior Fire Prism for that?

The Falcon biggest issue it that it tries to be too many things, most of which the Serpent can do better anyway.

-

Any thoughts on a WS with twin starcannon? It's just 2 points more expensive than 3 shuriken cannon serpent in the old index.

Avatar, can you give him Falcon's Swiftness? Then pop Matchless Agility.

The 3 units of shining spears list mentioned above sounds pretty cool but I think that taking multiple such units with eldar gives diminishing returns.

One unit of 9 Shining spears can be thrown at the enemy and buffed up with Quicken, Conceal, Protect, Fortune and more. The opponent will have to deal with this unit but their damage output will be severely diminished when doing so. With 3 units of spears going in the opponent can target the least buffed unit and negate the effect of the other buffs. So 3 units are nowhere near 3x as good as one.

I think a key tactic with the new Eldar will be forcing your opponent to target units that have massive defensive buffs while the rest of your army picks them off.


As an example you could take:

1) A few hammer units to throw at your enemy 1 at a time, like:

20 Guardian Defenders in the Webway.
9 Shining Spears.
10 Wraithguard/blades

2) The buff brigade:

Farseers
Spiritseers
Warlocks

3) Long range firepower to pound the enemy while they are trying to deal with the "distraction Carnifexes":

Fire Prisms
War Walkers
Dark Reapers
Crimson Hunters


I'm thinking something like 2 Fire prisms and a unit of 3 War Walkers with EMLs to shoot from extreme range. A "bunker" of 10 Wraithblades with Axes deployed centrally to screen the psykers. Then turn 1 drop 20 gurdians in the opponents face and buff them to hell and back so that they are hard to shift and hard to get past. Turn 2 the Shining spears get launched forward with all the buffs on. Turn 3 the Wraith blades have made it up the board and get all the buffs.

Every turn there is a super juiced up unit the enemy HAS to deal with while they get shot up by your heavy support.

I'm thinking something like 2 Fire prisms and a unit of 3 War Walkers with EMLs to shoot from extreme range. A "bunker" of 10 Wraithblades with Axes deployed centrally to screen the psykers. Then turn 1 drop 20 gurdians in the opponents face and buff them to hell and back so that they are hard to shift and hard to get past. Turn 2 the Shining spears get launched forward with all the buffs on. Turn 3 the Wraith blades have made it up the board and get all the buffs.

It seems to require a lot of CPs.
At the 2000 pt level, you have about 6 to 9 CPs not more.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
The 3 units of shining spears list mentioned above sounds pretty cool but I think that taking multiple such units with eldar gives diminishing returns.

One unit of 9 Shining spears can be thrown at the enemy and buffed up with Quicken, Conceal, Protect, Fortune and more. The opponent will have to deal with this unit but their damage output will be severely diminished when doing so. With 3 units of spears going in the opponent can target the least buffed unit and negate the effect of the other buffs. So 3 units are nowhere near 3x as good as one.

And here I think the opposite. They can focus down on one unit - but taking on three? That will not be easy - even if that one unit is stronger in a few ways (I don't think the powers listed make it 3x stronger), three units is simply more volume of fire/attacks/wounds. And you are pouring so much of your psychic output into the single unit, you need at least a Farseer and some Warlocks to get those spells out there, meaning you commit more points to the unit to make it more potent.

As for "toss them in one at a time" - is that prudent? It isn't like armies can't do two things at once - repel your hammer and shoot up your second and third ones at range. Seems like going all in with a major alpha that is properly supported with a medium-sized gunline would be potentially better in that they spend a few turns trying to chew on your alpha, while you pick off stuff at range with your support (Hemlocks & Prisms).

 Galef wrote:

 DanielFM wrote:
Another question (for which I already expect the answer).

Is the Falcon -at it's new reduced price- still a sin against humanity, I mean, Aeldarity?
I like it's design far more than the Wave Serpent, and it's transport capacity should be enough to keep 5 Dark Reapers + Yvraine inside as alpha-strike protection or potential relocation.

The problems with the Falcon are that the Serpent does everything it can do, but better.
A Falcon with Pulse laser & Brightlance isn't as good as a Twin Bright lance Serpent because the Serpent is still cheaper, has an extra wound, has the Serpent shield.
The Falcon also HAS to take at least 1 Heavy weapon (the Pulse laser) meaning it cannot be as efficient as an all Shuricannon Serpent that can move (including Advance) without penalty. At least 1 of the Falcons weapons will either be -1 to hit or can't fire at all.
And if you plan on sitting the Falcon back to mitigate this, why not just take the superior Fire Prism for that?

The Falcon biggest issue it that it tries to be too many things, most of which the Serpent can do better anyway.

-

What a pitty. The Falcon is so iconic and I hate the WS turret's guts. It's more Tau than Eldar

 Shadenuat wrote:
Any thoughts on a WS with twin starcannon? It's just 2 points more expensive than 3 shuriken cannon serpent in the old index.

Avatar, can you give him Falcon's Swiftness? Then pop Matchless Agility.

I don’t think starcannons cut it at lower cost. Being heavy loses the triple cannon serpent ability to advance and fire at full effect. Strength 6 isn’t as good as it used to be under the new table. Whereas before you wounded t4 on 2s and took off hull points on a 6, now it’s wound on a 3 and maybe take a wound off a vehicle on a 5. But vehicles have four times the wounds as hull points and are likely to still get a save.

It seems to require a lot of CPs.
At the 2000 pt level, you have about 6 to 9 CPs not more

My lists are all built around 8 CPs at the moment, a Battalion and two 1CP detachments. The list I was theorizing about there is relying more on Psy powers than stratagems. It would need 1 for webway strike (maybe 3 depending what you're up against), 1 per turn for the Prisms, then there's a handful for defensive buffs like the guardian sheild, fire and fade, and maybe the -1 to hit buff (2CP for that one puts me off a little.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:


And here I think the opposite. They can focus down on one unit - but taking on three? That will not be easy - even if that one unit is stronger in a few ways (I don't think the powers listed make it 3x stronger), three units is simply more volume of fire/attacks/wounds. And you are pouring so much of your psychic output into the single unit, you need at least a Farseer and some Warlocks to get those spells out there, meaning you commit more points to the unit to make it more potent.

As for "toss them in one at a time" - is that prudent? It isn't like armies can't do two things at once - repel your hammer and shoot up your second and third ones at range. Seems like going all in with a major alpha that is properly supported with a medium-sized gunline would be potentially better in that they spend a few turns trying to chew on your alpha, while you pick off stuff at range with your support (Hemlocks & Prisms).

I wasn't suggesting that 1 buffed Spear unit is better than three, but that three are not 3x better than one, hence diminishing returns. Any decent army will crush 1 unit of buffed up spears in a single turn, but every shot your opponent fires at a unit with Protect, Fortunce, conceal etc... is a win for you.

Shooty alpha strike lists can be very good in 8th, but assault alpha strike lists are very inconsistent. Any decent list should have ways to counter the Swarmlord + Pod + Genestealers + Trygon type turn one assault shenanigans- screens and infiltrators make this fairly easy.

The "throw them in one at a time" idea is really the best case scenario and won't always be possible for the reasons you state. However, if you have two or three such hammer units, you can throw them out in any order, seperatlly or together, as is required on a game by game basis.


The basic principle that I think is important is that Eldar can make one unit incredibly durable with buffs. If you can get your opponent to try and kill that unit you're onto a winner.

Wyldcarde wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
Any thoughts on a WS with twin starcannon? It's just 2 points more expensive than 3 shuriken cannon serpent in the old index.

Avatar, can you give him Falcon's Swiftness? Then pop Matchless Agility.

I don’t think starcannons cut it at lower cost. Being heavy loses the triple cannon serpent ability to advance and fire at full effect. Strength 6 isn’t as good as it used to be under the new table. Whereas before you wounded t4 on 2s and took off hull points on a 6, now it’s wound on a 3 and maybe take a wound off a vehicle on a 5. But vehicles have four times the wounds as hull points and are likely to still get a save.

I'm starting to think a few weapons like Starcannons were built around the thought of Doom and Jinx being things that are always available to Eldar. Which I think hurts overall, because Autarch + Aspect only builds get a lot weaker, and we're almost forced to drop a couple hundred points on Psykers. Pretty much every Eldar list without Psykers is immediately made better with them.

Also... I really don't like d3 Damage weapons. You'd think it'd be great for things like Terminators or Obliterators... but the reality is that they end up sucking up 3-4 damage instead of 2. Who is not notorious for sneaking in 2 wounds on a squad of terminators... only to roll 1 damage on the first shot, and then 3 on the second.

This also gets me reluctant to fall in love with the d3 Focused mode of the Fire Prism. Oh, look, 1 shot. Does damage... 2 damage! The d3 is the true enemy in the game!

I've really been enjoying Shuriken weapons. Crapapults and Cannons may not be overwhelmingly awesome, but they do the job against most things. And the volume and psychic support just seems to be so much better when centered around these weapons. At least when I shoot 20 catapults at a Leman Russ, I'm going to sneak some damage in and it will all be -3 AP. With Doom... it is a scary amount of damage these Shuriken weapons can do.

That is probably why I will never really opt for Star Cannons, Scatter Lasers, and maybe even Bright Lances as the game starts evolving (especially as more and more T8 infiltrates into lists). Also, running EVERY unit in the army and then still being at FULL ranged strength... that allows you to really throw a wrench in your opponent's plan until they start realizing that Mv 7 is really closer to Mv 10-12. You can't do that with Starcannons, though.

If it ain't a Crimson Hunter, Spirithost unit, or Fire Prism... it'll likely have some sort of Assault/Shuriken weaponry for me to get maximum mileage out of Biel-Tan trait + Battle Focus.

 Fafnir wrote:
What GW needs to do is accept and acknowledge that the FW model is the official model and appearance of the avatar, and design rules to reflect that scale. He needs to have a potency on par with that of a Greater Daemon or Primarch.

He needs the mobility to put some forward pressure onto your opponent, and he should be meaty enough and resilient enough to be at the front of your force leading them into bloody oblivion, not hidden behind walls. The Eldar should be following his bloody trail into battle, not leading it.

Give him a statline similar to Mortarion as a starting point (doesn't need as many special rules or psyker powers, obviously, but the actual fighting profile is something in line with what I think when I see the Avatar. Especially the melee weapon modes). He's certainly big enough.

Or, alternatively, as it is a Forgeworld model, Forgeworld should ackknowledge that their Avatar model is different enough from the GW version to warrant a different set of rules. Make him a special named Avatar, like "The Right Hand of Khaine" or "Old Fire Eyes" or something. Give him a primarch statline and some extra powers and leave the current Avatar as his little brother.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
While I'm here, what are peoples opinions on options for gun platform units now? Which are the better options overall? When I talk about gun platforms, I mean the most dakka for the points, so I'd point towards:

Vauls Wrath
War Walkers
Vypers
Falcons maybe?
Hornets (though these are now very expensive relative to the others, hopefully FW do an update)

The basic principle that I think is important is that Eldar can make one unit incredibly durable with buffs. If you can get your opponent to try and kill that unit you're onto a winner.

What unit do you favor here?
In general, the opponent will go for an enemy unit that can do some serious damage (shooting or cc) to his/her army.
Shining Spears and Dark Reapers come to my mind, while other units like Wraithguard or Fire Dragons will often be mounted in a Serpent and are therefore not targetable while mounted.

 wuestenfux wrote:

The basic principle that I think is important is that Eldar can make one unit incredibly durable with buffs. If you can get your opponent to try and kill that unit you're onto a winner.

What unit do you favor here?
In general, the opponent will go for an enemy unit that can do some serious damage (shooting or cc) to his/her army.
Shining Spears and Dark Reapers come to my mind, while other units like Wraithguard or Fire Dragons will often be mounted in a Serpent and are therefore not targetable while mounted.

I think it needs to be a unit that can hit hard but also is fairly durable/cheap to begin with- I don't think Dark reapers fit well in this role, they are a unit that wants to take advantage of the enemy shooting the distraction Carnifex. It also helps if it is in their way physically- A wall of 20 Guaridans that Webway + Quickens to 2" away from an assault armies DZ on turn one has stopped that army advancing unless it can fly. 10 Wraithblades would be a more extreme version of that.

I mentioned Guardians, Spears and Wraithblades with axes above because the can all gain a 3++ save with buffs (only vs shooting for two of them).

Niiru wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
What GW needs to do is accept and acknowledge that the FW model is the official model and appearance of the avatar, and design rules to reflect that scale. He needs to have a potency on par with that of a Greater Daemon or Primarch.

He needs the mobility to put some forward pressure onto your opponent, and he should be meaty enough and resilient enough to be at the front of your force leading them into bloody oblivion, not hidden behind walls. The Eldar should be following his bloody trail into battle, not leading it.

Give him a statline similar to Mortarion as a starting point (doesn't need as many special rules or psyker powers, obviously, but the actual fighting profile is something in line with what I think when I see the Avatar. Especially the melee weapon modes). He's certainly big enough.

Or, alternatively, as it is a Forgeworld model, Forgeworld should ackknowledge that their Avatar model is different enough from the GW version to warrant a different set of rules. Make him a special named Avatar, like "The Right Hand of Khaine" or "Old Fire Eyes" or something. Give him a primarch statline and some extra powers and leave the current Avatar as his little brother.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
While I'm here, what are peoples opinions on options for gun platform units now? Which are the better options overall? When I talk about gun platforms, I mean the most dakka for the points, so I'd point towards:

Vauls Wrath
War Walkers
Vypers
Falcons maybe?
Hornets (though these are now very expensive relative to the others, hopefully FW do an update)

I wasn't sold on the Vaul's Wrath, just feels there are better things for 100 points than a gun.

Vypers just feel outclassed by War Walkers unless you leverage the Biker tag heavily. They also are Fast Attack, aren't they? So they may have some value in putting together a Brigade detachment if you want them as opposed to Swooping Hawks or Wind Riders.

Falcons... decent firepower, on a Transport. It just feels stuck in between the Wave Serpent and Fire Prism. Not as durable and handy as the Serpent as a transport, fire power not on the level of the Fire Prism.

Hornets? I've been having problems with them... to really leverage them, you'd probably want Shuriken Cannons... but they just become an expensive platform for 2 Shuriken Cannons... which brings us back to the War Walker is just better.

War Walkers will probably minimize the investment for the weapons on the most durable platform thanks to the 5+ invulnerable and no degrading profile.

My one and a half cent!

I think players make too much of a deal about -1 penalty for heavy weapons due to naturally being uncomfortable when penalized by design of the game system. Some armies shoot on 4+ even when not moving, or worse. I ran wave serpents with bright lances and found the fact that transports can cripple or destroy other multi wound models trying to kill them quite interesting in a turn the tables situation so to speak. Being able to threaten stuff like bikers or monsters with your basic transports seems like an interesting choice to me, since I tend to run anti-infantry units inside them like DAs, guards, banshees and whatever.

 Shadenuat wrote:
I think players make too much of a deal about -1 penalty for heavy weapons due to naturally being uncomfortable when penalized by design of the game system. Some armies shoot on 4+ even when not moving, or worse. I ran wave serpents with bright lances and found the fact that transports can cripple or destroy other multi wound models trying to kill them quite interesting in a turn the tables situation so to speak. Being able to threaten stuff like bikers or monsters with your basic transports seems like an interesting choice to me, since I tend to run anti-infantry units inside them like DAs, guards, banshees and whatever.

To me it is more about the loss of interaction with Battle Focus. If Battle Focus would let you fire Heavy Weapons at -1 after advancing, I think the arguments (at least mine) would be A LOT different. Mobile army immediately gets a lot less shifty when bringing a bunch of heavy weapons (though that does make a bit of sense, from a perspective of theme).

Only infantry have BF so idk what you mean, unless you meant like Guardian heavy platforms (which can shoot on 3+ now with Ulthwe stratagem btw).

As for the fear of d3 or d6, whole game is based around d6 dice, so... eh? Just put more dice into enemy to even the numbers. I think when it comes to Starcannon you pay less for damage multiplication and more for always making shots at -3 AP.

 Shadenuat wrote:
I think players make too much of a deal about -1 penalty for heavy weapons due to naturally being uncomfortable when penalized by design of the game system. Some armies shoot on 4+ even when not moving, or worse. I ran wave serpents with bright lances and found the fact that transports can cripple or destroy other multi wound models trying to kill them quite interesting in a turn the tables situation so to speak. Being able to threaten stuff like bikers or monsters with your basic transports seems like an interesting choice to me, since I tend to run anti-infantry units inside them like DAs, guards, banshees and whatever.

It's a pretty big penalty. If you're expecting to be at -1 to hit then there aren't many situations where you prefer the starcannon to the shuriken cannon. They're just too similar otherwise. Bright lances are at least highly specialized for killing common T7 vehicles, and they're so expensive that Wave Serpents are a good platform for them (otherwise you make a Vyper or a War Walker way too tempting a target). But surely in general you'd prefer to take Crimson Hunters who always hit on a 3+ and also get some other bonuses.

What if WS remains stationary? For example, as a bunker for Dark Reapers to wait out first enemy turn or lower amount of deploys. Would twin starcannons be a good choice?

edit. Sure, Hunters are better (than even most other dedicated fire support units), but I'm just wondering what can we put on a transport if we don't need to shurikenrush the enemy. So far I liked lances, when moving once, disembarking, then shooting for other turns while sitting tight at infantry with cannon and with things at enemy's backline with lances.

the cosmic serpent wrote:


I see the night spinner only useful if you want to tuck it away in a corner and fire without LoS. The 2D6 shot volume from a spinner can be matched by a fire prism sitting still to fire twice and using the dispersed mode, 2d6 Str 6 ap -3 D1 is fairly similar to 2d6 str 7 ap 0 (-4 on 6s to wound) D2. The spinner hits a little harder but has a more difficult time getting through armor. The prism has the ability to adapt to firing profile based on your selected target where the spinner can not, which to me makes it less efficient. Jack of all trades master of none the spinner seems to me.

Vs. (non-Wraith) infantry, S6 vs. S7 doesn’t matter. Dispersed mode is much better at shredding anything (-3 AP is better than -4 AP on 20%-25% of hits), from TEQs (even comparing 1D to 2D) to GEQs. As to functionality, needing no LoS vs. range & flexibility is no contest. Bigger issue is that your tank is only killing (e.g.) around 3.5 or 6 GEQs per turn (NS vs. disp FP), which isn’t a great trade.

S7/2D is an advantage when hunting light armor, but the AP issue is still problematic.

Non-infantry with Battle Focus:

Windriders, Shining Spears, War Walkers.

Those are not trivial exclusions. Two of them can take Shuriken Cannons, the other has a 6" lance (isn't is assault?).

If you're bringing tanks (that aren't named Wave Serpents), you're probably putting heavy weapons on them, not assault weapons. Battle Focus won't help them much, unless Battle Focus was made to affect Heavy Weapons and extended to those vehicles, even if they had it. Wave serpents enjoy being able to advance into position for a measly -1 to hit (and for 10 points, can be even tankier with -1 to be hit).

War Walkers are already good, but can be given their cheaper weapon loadout and advance around and cover some decent ground (read as: deny some decent ground). Even if your opponent blasts them off the table, that's probably 2 Lascannons not hounding your Fire Prisms.

Two Bright Lances on a War Walker is still good... what? 90 points for two lances on a slightly tanky platform? But what happens to the dynamic of the army? They're rooted to the back field, because I don't want to suck up the -1 to hit before they're hammered off the table.

Going back to Star Cannons... I don't think they're really a good "all around" weapon, which means picking their targets are going to be incredibly hard, and the results will likely be volatile. Not enough rate of fire to make infantry respect it, not enough strength to make vehicles respect it.

And in mentioning Dark Reapers... I could take a twin Star Cannon Serpent... or I could take a Triple Cannon Serpent with a squad of Dark Reapers hanging out. I would actually feel much more comfortable with Dark Reapers doing the job that I poked Star Cannons for. And the Star Cannon is still 5 points (50%) more expensive than Shuriken cannon.