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Hi, could you give me some help? I would like to use Asurmen as converting the Visarch into him appears to be one of the best possible uses (aside from a simple Autarch proxy).
How would you build an army around him to be somewhat functional (not necessarily competitive)?
For extra info I'm playing CWE+Ynnari without separate battalions, Yvraine and the Yncarne (I know, character heavy and suboptimal, but rule of cool man!), 8 Scorpions, 5 Dark Reapers and 1 or two Harlequin troupes in Starweavers.
Wraith units and Dire Avengers are most welcome.
Aiming for 2k.
Thanks!

Asurmen is surprisingly good in combat and really good with runes of battle buffs. With protect he has a 2++ in CC! with Empower he causes D3 mortal wounds on a 5+ to wound which doom also helps with. I haven't done the maths but I reckon a buffed Asurmen could give a Primarch a run for it's money.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Asurmen is surprisingly good in combat and really good with runes of battle buffs. With protect he has a 2++ in CC! with Empower he causes D3 mortal wounds on a 5+ to wound which fortune also helps with. I haven't done the maths but I reckon a buffed Asurmen could give a Primarch a run for it's money.

A lethal model. But he's lumbering which makes him situational.

A counter assault unit at best I think.

My view on melee units has not changed since 4th edition: if it can't move 12" then charge, it's not worth your time.
The only exceptions to this rule are HQ choices that massively buff surrounding units (though those still have to be able to keep up) or units that also have decent range weapons (i.e. can be used turn 1) to use as they close the distance.
Asurmen and the Avatar are so close to this, but their price point and slow movement (read not 12") just make them too situational to use in competitive games (although casual games are fine)

EDIT: 8th edition has slightly changed this for me, as units that can "deep strike" or "infiltrate" than charge are now almost as good as traditionally fast units. Adding powers like Quicken, Warptime, etc plus charge rerolls to bonuses to charge movement have all combined to make this worthwhile, but not every melee unit has access to these

-

xmbk wrote:

 Galef wrote:

xmbk wrote:
12S Fire Prism shot has it's uses. A cp reroll is more effective on it. If a high wound target has a 2+ (particularly T5/6), then Lance may be the way to go.

I think the point of using the S9 D3 shots is that you get more hits on average and using the Linked Fire stratagem gets you rerolls to ALL hits and wounds, not just 1 reroll.
The only "real" reason to use the S12 shot is if you really need the D6 damage, but arguable 2D3 is better and that's the average you get with the S9 version.

-

Correct, using the linked stratagem improves Focused more than Lance. But the cp is still relevant for the d6 dam roll, and with the extra AP vs 2+ Lance will average higher damage. #of hits isn't really important, it's all about the damage.

But this is a very specialized case, so in general just defaulting to Focused is fine. I think the OP mentioned Nids though, and Lance has it's uses against the big bugs you really want dead.

So the difference in this guns only matters at T6 for current lines of models and a few T9 forge world models that most folks don't use or are banned at tournament.

So it's both VS T8 3+ save.
Focused 1.78 wounds
Lance 1.56 wounds

Thus the focused is better. Both have the same to hit and to wound roll and both ignore all the armor. This changes in favor of lanced if the target as better armor. it also changed is the model is T6.

T6 3+:
DIspersed1.167
Focused: 1.78
Lance: 1.94

In which case the lance become better.

Normally a reroll doesn't really make the difference, but in the case of linked fire against T6 it does. This is because the two weapon profiles are so close

T6 linked:
Dispersed 2.333
Focused: 3.16
Lance: 3.01

As you can see the focused just passes the expected damage from the lanced when using linked fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
My view on melee units has not changed since 4th edition: if it can't move 12" then charge, it's not worth your time.
The only exceptions to this rule are HQ choices that massively buff surrounding units (though those still have to be able to keep up) or units that also have decent range weapons (i.e. can be used turn 1) to use as they close the distance.
Asurmen and the Avatar are so close to this, but their price point and slow movement (read not 12") just make them too situational to use in competitive games (although casual games are fine)

EDIT: 8th edition has slightly changed this for me, as units that can "deep strike" or "infiltrate" than charge are now almost as good as traditionally fast units. Adding powers like Quicken, Warptime, etc plus charge rerolls to bonuses to charge movement have all combined to make this worthwhile, but not every melee unit has access to these

-

I agree completely, and even takjing the avatar taking him to provide court of the young king doesn't really feel worth it. Asurmen maybe if you have gallons of dire avengers, but his buff is hard to weight as many armies will kill your avengers with out AP making his buff useless.

Two potentially interesting combos:

Wraithknight with a Iyanden spirit seer equipped with the Psytronome.
Get them close to the enemy (main problem there), charge the WK and pop Psy. Use the WKs titanic feet ability then.
Thats 4 base attacks doubled to 8 for the Psy multiplied by 3. So 24 str 8 attacks hitting on 3s.
Seer then allows rerolls of 1s so should average about 20(?) str 8 hits dealing d3 dmg each.

9 Shining Spears from Saim Hann accompanied by a bike Autarch.
Setup on the 12" line.
Move 16 + 6 (ride the wind) so 22" move.
Then shoot 9 str 6 ap-4 lances with rerolls from path of command (plus whatever the Aut is armed with)
Shoot 10 x4 shuirken str 4 shots with rerolls.
Then pop 1CP Warriors of the Raging wind (can move, advance and charge).
Charge with rerolls from Saim Hann ability.
Fighting with 18 str 6 ap4 lance melee attacks with rerolls 1st round (plus whatever the Aut fights with).

 Ratius wrote:

9 Shining Spears from Saim Hann accompanied by a bike Autarch.
Setup on the 12" line.
Move 16 + 6 (ride the wind) so 22" move.
Then shoot 9 str 6 ap-4 lances with rerolls from path of command (plus whatever the Aut is armed with)
Shoot 10 x4 shuirken str 4 shots with rerolls.
Then pop 1CP Warriors of the Raging wind (can move, advance and charge).
Charge with rerolls from Saim Hann ability.
Fighting with 18 str 6 ap4 lance melee attacks with rerolls 1st round (plus whatever the Aut fights with).

...ok, I adore this. Good god that is hilarious!

On top of this, you can go for Webway Strike for two more Biker units, use Quicken on one and hope the SH charge re-rolls get the other one there. That is 28 models charging in T1 after blasting with all those lances and shurikens. Gnarly! Probably a lot of points committed to an alpha strike, but why not go big?!

 wuestenfux wrote:
How about the Nightspinner?
It has an interesting main weapon with 2D6 shots of high strength requiring no LOS.
I have one at home and I may use it. Or would a conversion to a Fire Prism be better?

I see the night spinner only useful if you want to tuck it away in a corner and fire without LoS. The 2D6 shot volume from a spinner can be matched by a fire prism sitting still to fire twice and using the dispersed mode, 2d6 Str 6 ap -3 D1 is fairly similar to 2d6 str 7 ap 0 (-4 on 6s to wound) D2. The spinner hits a little harder but has a more difficult time getting through armor. The prism has the ability to adapt to firing profile based on your selected target where the spinner can not, which to me makes it less efficient. Jack of all trades master of none the spinner seems to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ratius wrote:
Two potentially interesting combos:

9 Shining Spears from Saim Hann accompanied by a bike Autarch.
Setup on the 12" line.
Move 16 + 6 (ride the wind) so 22" move.
Then shoot 9 str 6 ap-4 lances with rerolls from path of command (plus whatever the Aut is armed with)
Shoot 10 x4 shuirken str 4 shots with rerolls.
Then pop 1CP Warriors of the Raging wind (can move, advance and charge).
Charge with rerolls from Saim Hann ability.
Fighting with 18 str 6 ap4 lance melee attacks with rerolls 1st round (plus whatever the Aut fights with).

I posted a list with this setup on my gaming group forum a couple of days ago. I'm really looking forward to trying this out. I own 9 spears
right now, but I'm considering buying more to swap out my two Windrider squads for two more 6 man spear squads. If this performs as well as I want it to.

 Galef wrote:
but their price point and slow movement (read not 12") just make them too situational to use in competitive games (although casual games are fine)-

Did you forget about the wave serpent? All you have to do is put Asurmen inside with a Warlock/Farseer and 10 Avengers... do you even play Eldar?

Avatar is great behind screening units, he cant be shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
My view on melee units has not changed since 4th edition: if it can't move 12" then charge, it's not worth your time.-

10 Striking Scorpions with a Warlock and a Farseer in a Wave Serpent is still deadly, position your tank first turn, advance for the -1 hit, and then next turn disembark and charge. Its one of the oldest tricks in the Eldar book, used effectively even in 4th and 5th edition for years, including tournaments. How did you not know about this basic maneuver?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Asurmen is surprisingly good in combat and really good with runes of battle buffs. With protect he has a 2++ in CC! with Empower he causes D3 mortal wounds on a 5+ to wound which fortune also helps with. I haven't done the maths but I reckon a buffed Asurmen could give a Primarch a run for it's money.

A lethal model. But he's lumbering which makes him situational.

Wave Serpent will solve all your problems.

 Crusaderobr wrote:

 Galef wrote:
but their price point and slow movement (read not 12") just make them too situational to use in competitive games (although casual games are fine)-

Did you forget about the wave serpent? All you have to do is put Asurmen inside with a Warlock/Farseer and 10 Avengers... do you even play Eldar?

Avatar is great behind screening units, he cant be shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
My view on melee units has not changed since 4th edition: if it can't move 12" then charge, it's not worth your time.-

10 Striking Scorpions with a Warlock and a Farseer in a Wave Serpent is still deadly, position your tank first turn, advance for the -1 hit, and then next turn disembark and charge. Its one of the oldest tricks in the Eldar book, used effectively even in 4th and 5th edition for years, including tournaments. How did you not know about this basic maneuver?

I read his comments as competitive meaning 1st turn alpha strike which is why the serpent tactics aren't discussed. GW in prior versions went out of their way to prevent T1 assaults, in 8th they seem to be a staple of the alpha strike so relying on serpents is delaying your ability to strike. I think the argument being made is that with our stratagems and traits we now have ways to T1 assault but in most cases it relies on something moving very fast or relying on spells like quicken to charge out of deepstrike.

Your serpent tactic is still valid if you build around a beta strike.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
A counter assault unit at best I think.

Wave Serpent...

Using 2 squads of 5 scorpions, 82 points each as claw delivery system seem like a better choice than a whole unit of 10.

the cosmic serpent wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:

 Galef wrote:
but their price point and slow movement (read not 12") just make them too situational to use in competitive games (although casual games are fine)-

Did you forget about the wave serpent? All you have to do is put Asurmen inside with a Warlock/Farseer and 10 Avengers... do you even play Eldar?

Avatar is great behind screening units, he cant be shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
My view on melee units has not changed since 4th edition: if it can't move 12" then charge, it's not worth your time.-

10 Striking Scorpions with a Warlock and a Farseer in a Wave Serpent is still deadly, position your tank first turn, advance for the -1 hit, and then next turn disembark and charge. Its one of the oldest tricks in the Eldar book, used effectively even in 4th and 5th edition for years, including tournaments. How did you not know about this basic maneuver?

I read his comments as competitive meaning 1st turn alpha strike which is why the serpent tactics aren't discussed. GW in prior versions went out of their way to prevent T1 assaults, in 8th they seem to be a staple of the alpha strike so relying on serpents is delaying your ability to strike. I think the argument being made is that with our stratagems and traits we now have ways to T1 assault but in most cases it relies on something moving very fast or relying on spells like quicken to charge out of deepstrike.

Your serpent tactic is still valid if you build around a beta strike.

1 Wave Serpent making a second turn charge with a CC unit is very competitive. You still have the rest of your list, not including the wasted firepower of the opponent pouring shots into the waveserpent with -1 or -2 to hit sometimes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadenuat wrote:
Using 2 squads of 5 scorpions, 82 points each as claw delivery system seem like a better choice than a whole unit of 10.

5 man squads are easy victory points for your opponent, and wont do much in melee honestly. 10 man with fortune, protect, and doom against a target... now your talking. 2+ 5+++ save scorpions for the win!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadenuat wrote:
Using 2 squads of 5 scorpions, 82 points each as claw delivery system seem like a better choice than a whole unit of 10.

5 man squads are easy victory points for your opponent, and wont do much in melee honestly. 10 man with fortune, protect, and doom against a target... now your talking. 2+ 5+++ save scorpions for the win!

 Crusaderobr wrote:


1 Wave Serpent making a second turn charge with a CC unit is very competitive. You still have the rest of your list, not including the wasted firepower of the opponent pouring shots into the waveserpent with -1 or -2 to hit sometimes.

It can be if you build your list to support it with your other units. Consider this though, if you add a serpent to the cost of the unit you are trying to transport just to get them to assault you are decreasing their efficiency of work/point costs. If you utilize stratagem and traits to get your unit into combat you achieve the same goal but at a lower points cost which allows you to take more units/gear which further increases your offense and does not decrease the units points efficiency. A squad of 10 scorpions a farseer (you mentioned casting doom to support the scorpions) and a serpent means those units now have to take out closer to 350 - 400pts of something to break even. If you deepstrike the scorpions and use quicken they can charge 1st turn and only have to make back ~175 - 200pts for 10 scorpions + warlock/spiritseer to break even. The scorpions are much more likely to pull that off. You can argue that a waveserpent is worth the extra cost and delayed strike because it is a bullet sponge and is likely to do some damage on its own. It's just a play style preference.

When people say "competitive" on this forum I tend to infer they mean smashiest/earliest/cheapest way possible. Which makes players go for strong, 1st turn, cheap alpha strikes instead of playing the long game.

This *might* change though as tournaments move toward a more rewarding "long" game system where your max score matters for rankings so going the full game instead of tabling by turn 2 or 3.

mmimzie wrote:
Scorpions do about as well as Spectres if they can pull off a charge, but this is generally not worth risking.

There isnt much risk if you toss them in a wave serpent. Guaranteed second turn charge unless they shoot your serpent down with all its -1 hit modifiers, which is unlikely.

 Crusaderobr wrote:
5 man squads are easy victory points for your opponent

Eh. More blood to Ynnari god.

 Shadenuat wrote:

The two 5 man squads will hit harder than a 10 man squad, doom or no doom.

Standard Striking scorpions come with 2 str4 attacks each (plus mandiblasters on a 6+), which is pretty weak for a dedicated CC unit in my opinion. The exarch claw is the only thing which will be of much threat to most enemies, so having 2 is worth the tradeoff surely.

Doom and fortune, protect and jinx is required for them to perform in cc against tougher targets imo, if you want to throw 5 man squads at your opponent for easy victory points be my guest. Dont say I didnt warn you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the cosmic serpent wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:


1 Wave Serpent making a second turn charge with a CC unit is very competitive. You still have the rest of your list, not including the wasted firepower of the opponent pouring shots into the waveserpent with -1 or -2 to hit sometimes.

It can be if you build your list to support it with your other units. Consider this though, if you add a serpent to the cost of the unit you are trying to transport just to get them to assault you are decreasing their efficiency of work/point costs. If you utilize stratagem and traits to get your unit into combat you achieve the same goal but at a lower points cost which allows you to take more units/gear which further increases your offense and does not decrease the units points efficiency. A squad of 10 scorpions a farseer (you mentioned casting doom to support the scorpions) and a serpent means those units now have to take out closer to 350 - 400pts of something to break even. If you deepstrike the scorpions and use quicken they can charge 1st turn and only have to make back ~175 - 200pts for 10 scorpions + warlock/spiritseer to break even. The scorpions are much more likely to pull that off. You can argue that a waveserpent is worth the extra cost and delayed strike because it is a bullet sponge and is likely to do some damage on its own. It's just a play style preference.

When people say "competitive" on this forum I tend to infer they mean smashiest/earliest/cheapest way possible. Which makes players go for strong, 1st turn, cheap alpha strikes instead of playing the long game.

This *might* change though as tournaments move toward a more rewarding "long" game system where your max score matters for rankings so going the full game instead of tabling by turn 2 or 3.

There is nothing wrong with setting up Scorpions 9" away. Its just harder to pull off a charge sometimes, its not guaranteed like the serpent pretty much is. Dont get too hung up on points costs. If you dont have a Farseer casting doom and fortune in your list, your missing out.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Using 2 squads of 5 scorpions, 82 points each as claw delivery system seem like a better choice than a whole unit of 10.

If you are running them in a vacuum, most Aspect Warriors work better as MSUs I think. You get more Exarchs and more flexibilty while reducing vulnerability to Battleshock. Victory points is the only potential downside and that only affects a minority of scenarios. It is the best way to play Ynnari for SFD I think. Lots of MSU squads means you are more likely to go second though which is something to bera in mind during planning.

Of course once you start chucking in Stratagems, Traits and buff powers. Pretty much all non-aura buff powers naturally work better when targeting a larger unit. Plus sometimes you may want larger units to contest objectives.

The upshot of this is that I think optimum squad size for Aspect Warriors depends on the Aspect and the rest of your army. If you are playing Iyanden or using the Alaitoc Warlord Trait to mitigate Battleshock then larger units are more viable. Avengers are good candidates for larger squads due to ObjSec. Anything coming in using a Webway stratagem should be as big as possible (go large or go home ). Units that have their own infiltrate/DS rules are likely to still be better as MSU as they will be more likely to be used opportunistically away from the supporting units in your army.

Well, Avengers don't have something like Claw, Star Lance or Tempest Launcher. Executioner is good, but casting Empower on 10-sized squad of banshees means more supported squads than just having only Doom and a bunch of 5 model squads with an extra halberd.

So yeah, it all depends. But for unit like scorps, where a regular elf is just an elf with a chainsword, while exarch is a power fister who generates additional attacks and such, I'd take more exarches.

The only major gripe I have about 8th edition is the fact characters cant join squads anymore, so no fortune for your farseer or warlock if they hitch a ride in a serpent with your aspect warrior squad. Sigh. I already miss the good ole days of 4th-5th.

the cosmic serpent wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:


1 Wave Serpent making a second turn charge with a CC unit is very competitive. You still have the rest of your list, not including the wasted firepower of the opponent pouring shots into the waveserpent with -1 or -2 to hit sometimes.

It can be if you build your list to support it with your other units. Consider this though, if you add a serpent to the cost of the unit you are trying to transport just to get them to assault you are decreasing their efficiency of work/point costs. If you utilize stratagem and traits to get your unit into combat you achieve the same goal but at a lower points cost which allows you to take more units/gear which further increases your offense and does not decrease the units points efficiency. A squad of 10 scorpions a farseer (you mentioned casting doom to support the scorpions) and a serpent means those units now have to take out closer to 350 - 400pts of something to break even. If you deepstrike the scorpions and use quicken they can charge 1st turn and only have to make back ~175 - 200pts for 10 scorpions + warlock/spiritseer to break even. The scorpions are much more likely to pull that off. You can argue that a waveserpent is worth the extra cost and delayed strike because it is a bullet sponge and is likely to do some damage on its own. It's just a play style preference.

When people say "competitive" on this forum I tend to infer they mean smashiest/earliest/cheapest way possible. Which makes players go for strong, 1st turn, cheap alpha strikes instead of playing the long game.

This *might* change though as tournaments move toward a more rewarding "long" game system where your max score matters for rankings so going the full game instead of tabling by turn 2 or 3.

That would be a valid point if wave serpents weren’t good on their own. It’s not like the wave serpent drops off it’s troops
And disappears. It’s still shooting, assaulting to tie up units and still super hard to take down.

I think Vypers need to be able to buy vehicle upgrades in order to be a viable choice.

Wyldcarde wrote:

the cosmic serpent wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:


1 Wave Serpent making a second turn charge with a CC unit is very competitive. You still have the rest of your list, not including the wasted firepower of the opponent pouring shots into the waveserpent with -1 or -2 to hit sometimes.

It can be if you build your list to support it with your other units. Consider this though, if you add a serpent to the cost of the unit you are trying to transport just to get them to assault you are decreasing their efficiency of work/point costs. If you utilize stratagem and traits to get your unit into combat you achieve the same goal but at a lower points cost which allows you to take more units/gear which further increases your offense and does not decrease the units points efficiency. A squad of 10 scorpions a farseer (you mentioned casting doom to support the scorpions) and a serpent means those units now have to take out closer to 350 - 400pts of something to break even. If you deepstrike the scorpions and use quicken they can charge 1st turn and only have to make back ~175 - 200pts for 10 scorpions + warlock/spiritseer to break even. The scorpions are much more likely to pull that off. You can argue that a waveserpent is worth the extra cost and delayed strike because it is a bullet sponge and is likely to do some damage on its own. It's just a play style preference.

When people say "competitive" on this forum I tend to infer they mean smashiest/earliest/cheapest way possible. Which makes players go for strong, 1st turn, cheap alpha strikes instead of playing the long game.

This *might* change though as tournaments move toward a more rewarding "long" game system where your max score matters for rankings so going the full game instead of tabling by turn 2 or 3.

That would be a valid point if wave serpents weren’t good on their own. It’s not like the wave serpent drops off it’s troops
And disappears. It’s still shooting, assaulting to tie up units and still super hard to take down.

I agree waveserpents are one of our more competitive options for their points cost. I don't doubt they will contribute. It just means that the scorpions+farseer+serpent will need to kill ~400pts to break even vs. ~175pts for scorpions+warlock+deepstrike. If you were already taking a waveserpent and happened to load it with scorpions then you wouldn't need to consider the waveserpent in the scorpions efficiency/points.I was just trying to expand on a question Crusaderobr had in regards to something Galef wrote about Scorpions not being competitive. In all my posts above I agree that the serpent tactic is viable. The breakdown between Galef's opinion and Crusaderobr's opinion is that I think what Galef means by competitive is cheap, smashy, turn 1 alpha strike and Crusaderobr's opinion is that the unit isn't bad just because they require support (decreases their efficiency/points) or aren't guaranteed a Turn 1 charge (missing out on a turn to contribute to your offense). I think Crusaderobr is right there are some nice combos with scorpions, attributes, stratagems and psychic powers that can be pulled off. I think they can be "competitive" just maybe not in the "tournament" sense. I have 30 scorpions (the ones that look like the predator, the current models) and Karandras, they are my favorite aspect models. I see many more ways to use them now with the 8th codex compared to 7th/6th so that makes me happy.


Galef wrote:
but their price point and slow movement (read not 12") just make them too situational to use in competitive games (although casual games are fine)-

Crusaderobr wrote:
Did you forget about the wave serpent? All you have to do is put Asurmen inside with a Warlock/Farseer and 10 Avengers... do you even play Eldar?

Avatar is great behind screening units, he cant be shot.



Galef wrote:
My view on melee units has not changed since 4th edition: if it can't move 12" then charge, it's not worth your time.-

Crusaderobr wrote:
10 Striking Scorpions with a Warlock and a Farseer in a Wave Serpent is still deadly, position your tank first turn, advance for the -1 hit, and then next turn disembark and charge. Its one of the oldest tricks in the Eldar book, used effectively even in 4th and 5th edition for years, including tournaments. How did you not know about this basic maneuver?

the cosmic serpent wrote:

When people say "competitive" on this forum I tend to infer they mean smashiest/earliest/cheapest way possible. Which makes players go for strong, 1st turn, cheap alpha strikes instead of playing the long game.

This *might* change though as tournaments move toward a more rewarding "long" game system where your max score matters for rankings so going the full game instead of tabling by turn 2 or 3.

Recently went through a tournament that did just that. Ended up smashing most of my opponents hard and fast until they had no teeth left to bite back, and then spent the rest of my turns farming objectives while they got to sit back and harmlessly wait for me to finish them off. The back-and-forth slugfests were great, but the current ruleset just doesn't often lend itself to that short of either poor rolling or unoptimized lists.

A lot of that problem just comes with the way the game is. I really like 8th edition, and I'm glad it came out when it did, because it was the perfect time for me. It brought me back into 40k in a big way after I left at the beginning of 6th, and it's usually a lot of fun. But it's still very obviously a rushed and (with the way new codices seem to be all over the place, throwing in much needed defensive tools left-and-right, some better thought out than others) incomplete ruleset that could have used more time in the oven. Moreover, the I-go-you-go system just ends up being far too heavily weighted with a game of this scale.

Avatar is great behind screening units, he cant be shot.

...and with that movement of 7 without the ability to be buffed/teleported/quickened/transported thanks to his stupid exclusion from every other Eldar ability, your opponent won't ever feel the need to, since by time he finally makes it up the field far enough to be remotely relevant, the enemy army will have already died of old age. And if he ever does manage to shake his fist at those whippersnappers hard enough to get them worried, that same low mobility makes it extremely easy for the enemy to tarpit him with pointless chaff that will keep him and his laughably low attacks characteristic tied up for the entire game.

 Fafnir wrote:

the cosmic serpent wrote:

When people say "competitive" on this forum I tend to infer they mean smashiest/earliest/cheapest way possible. Which makes players go for strong, 1st turn, cheap alpha strikes instead of playing the long game.

This *might* change though as tournaments move toward a more rewarding "long" game system where your max score matters for rankings so going the full game instead of tabling by turn 2 or 3.

Recently went through a tournament that did just that. Ended up smashing most of my opponents hard and fast until they had no teeth left to bite back, and then spent the rest of my turns farming objectives while they got to sit back and harmlessly wait for me to finish them off. The back-and-forth slugfests were great, but the current ruleset just doesn't often lend itself to that short of either poor rolling or unoptimized lists.

A lot of that problem just comes with the way the game is. I really like 8th edition, and I'm glad it came out when it did, because it was the perfect time for me. It brought me back into 40k in a big way after I left at the beginning of 6th, and it's usually a lot of fun. But it's still very obviously a rushed and (with the way new codices seem to be all over the place, throwing in much needed defensive tools left-and-right, some better thought out than others) incomplete ruleset that could have used more time in the oven. Moreover, the I-go-you-go system just ends up being far too heavily weighted with a game of this scale.

Avatar is great behind screening units, he cant be shot.

...and with that movement of 7 without the ability to be buffed/teleported/quickened/transported thanks to his stupid exclusion from every other Eldar ability, your opponent won't ever feel the need to, since by time he finally makes it up the field far enough to be remotely relevant, the enemy army will have already died of old age. And if he ever does manage to shake his fist at those whippersnappers hard enough to get them worried, that same low mobility makes it extremely easy for the enemy to tarpit him with pointless chaff that will keep him and his laughably low attacks characteristic tied up for the entire game.

I agree with a lot of this. The bgi turns are very dramatic. You can put SOOOOOO much out in any givin turn, and i don't think ti's necessarily an 8th only problem. it's honestly been an issue for some time. Definitely was the case in 7th... infact i think it was worse then lol.

Honestly, i thought the avatar was cool too, but he's just too slow. If you go against a heavy gun line army your not making it into melee till turn 3, and if that gun line is flying tau or enemy flying eldar you'll never make combat, as they'll scatter faster than you can swat them.

The other avatar of khaine's problem is his target. The avatar wants to fight vehicles and big monsters... but all the vehicles and big monsters are waaaay faster than he is and/or can easily be protected by hordes of nobodies that the avatar can't will kill effectively. Basicly if the avatar get's a charge it's because your opponent gave it to you in my book.

What GW needs to do is accept and acknowledge that the FW model is the official model and appearance of the avatar, and design rules to reflect that scale. He needs to have a potency on par with that of a Greater Daemon or Primarch.

He needs the mobility to put some forward pressure onto your opponent, and he should be meaty enough and resilient enough to be at the front of your force leading them into bloody oblivion, not hidden behind walls. The Eldar should be following his bloody trail into battle, not leading it.

Give him a statline similar to Mortarion as a starting point (doesn't need as many special rules or psyker powers, obviously, but the actual fighting profile is something in line with what I think when I see the Avatar. Especially the melee weapon modes). He's certainly big enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a note less related to just complaining about things, I'm not sure whether to go down the road of ghostswords or D-scythes on my Wraithguard/blades. They'll be acting as entourage for my Avatar (sigh...). Now, on one hand, the charge reroll aura of the Avatar is nice, but I have no illusions about the limitations of their poor mobility. The ghostswords just don't really seem to stick out for me.

Is there really any reason to go for the ghostsword variant when the D-scythes give fairly comparable damage and offer more versatility (they look a bit cooler?)? I'll likely be running an Alaitoc list, if that matters, although I'm not married to the Craftworld pick.

I think looking at “earning points back” and all the maths-hammer only tells one part of the story tho. It’s all well and good saying a x unit need to kill y worth of points to be worth it, but there is much more to the game than just that. Tying up your opponents biggest baddest shooty unit for a turn might not earn a unit any points in the “how much did it kill” department, but it is clear that it is a contribution to the overall goal of actually winning the game/tournament. Eldar especially can’t be judged on their return due to the fact that the army is so synergenistic.

Wyldcarde wrote:
I think looking at “earning points back” and all the maths-hammer only tells one part of the story tho. It’s all well and good saying a x unit need to kill y worth of points to be worth it, but there is much more to the game than just that. Tying up your opponents biggest baddest shooty unit for a turn might not earn a unit any points in the “how much did it kill” department, but it is clear that it is a contribution to the overall goal of actually winning the game/tournament. Eldar especially can’t be judged on their return due to the fact that the army is so synergenistic.

Exactly what I was thinking too