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So I keep thinking to take shuriken cannons everywhere I can because of Battle Focus or because things want to be mobile. Like guardian weapon platforms, wraithlords, war walkers, even wave serpents, I keep gravitating back to taking shuriken cannons but this is leaving me inadequate with anti elite/anti-tank things.

...take less Shuriken cannons?

Heh, I wonder how people played before when most eldar units were actually hitting on 4s because of BS3+ everywhere.

"Doctor, I have a problem. Can't stop taking Shuriken cannons"

Purifying Tempest wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
So my thoughts on the Avatar are the same as yours. My first game with him saw zero shooting vs him even when it was possible. He was just swamped with guardsmen and he killed 20 points per fight phase an my opponent was more than happy with that....

Can someone help me out here. I was thinking of webway strike with 20 guardians and 2 platforms.

But what about a use of the Webway and 24 Storm Guardians.? With 2 fusion guns or not ....even with chainswords....is there any tactical use for this maneuver?

Sounds like you drove the Avatar right into the swamp without doing anything to bring it down, first. Shirken weaponry should make short work of guard.

Remember that eldar is all about putting the right gun where it needs to be. Avatar vs conscripts is not that.

Isn't there also a stratagem to fall back and shoot/charge afterwards? Not sure if the Avatar can leverage it off hand... But you could have gotten a melee support unit in to take over for the Avatar, then moved him out into tanks or something more valuable.

The Avatar is never the right tool for anything. It's far too slow to keep up with any of its intended targets. Nothing should really get into combat with it unless your opponent lets it.

Wayniac wrote:
So I keep thinking to take shuriken cannons everywhere I can because of Battle Focus or because things want to be mobile. Like guardian weapon platforms, wraithlords, war walkers, even wave serpents, I keep gravitating back to taking shuriken cannons but this is leaving me inadequate with anti elite/anti-tank things.

I know exactly what you mean. Shuricannon spam looks great on paper, but then you realize how little anit-tank you get.
I actually think Shuricannons are a "clean-up" weapon. rather than your first choice. Have a few here and there and use them to fire at vehicles that only have a few wounds left (or that are close to being crippled), but only after you have exhausted all your dedicated anti-tank.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Heh, I wonder how people played before when most eldar units were actually hitting on 4s because of BS3+ everywhere.

I remember those days. Guardian jetbikes (they were not called windriders back then) could only take 1 Shuricannon per 3 bike and they only hit on 4+, yet many players (including myself) still took several units of them.

Hemlocks are great, but I keep facing the tough choice between them and CP.

Wayniac wrote:
So I keep thinking to take shuriken cannons everywhere I can because of Battle Focus or because things want to be mobile. Like guardian weapon platforms, wraithlords, war walkers, even wave serpents, I keep gravitating back to taking shuriken cannons but this is leaving me inadequate with anti elite/anti-tank things.

Shuriken catapults are surprisingly effective anti-tank weapons, and become great with Doom. I will gladly throw Guardians at a Land Raider if it's Doomed. Like, Guardians pay 54 ppw against T8 2+ normally, and only 29 ppw if it's Doomed. A stationary twin BL War Walker (this is about as efficient as lances get) pays 46 ppw normally, and 31 ppw if Doomed. Against T7 3+ the Guardians pay 31/19 ppw while the War Walker pays 29/22 ppw. The shuriken rule loads a weapon's damage into the 6 to-wound, which means that shuriken weapons lose effectiveness only very slowly as toughness increases as long as AP-3 is useful. Shuriken cannons aren't good anti-tank, however, since you have to pay a lot more for them per shot and the higher strength doesn't matter much (a catapult and cannon are almost the same per shot against a Doomed Land Raider). But the point is that you can have good anti-tank with a mobile shuriken-based list as long as you have plenty of Guardians or maybe Dire Avengers. Shining Spears are also incredibly good at killing tanks. Like, more efficient than Fire Dragons good.

 Galef wrote:
I remember those days. Guardian jetbikes (they were not called windriders back then) could only take 1 Shuricannon per 3 bike and they only hit on 4+, yet many players (including myself) still took several units of them.

Well, they were Troops.

I'm still butthurt that even with new codex bikes do not count as objective secured unit even in Saim-Hann detachment.

 Shadenuat wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I remember those days. Guardian jetbikes (they were not called windriders back then) could only take 1 Shuricannon per 3 bike and they only hit on 4+, yet many players (including myself) still took several units of them.

Well, they were Troops.

I'm still butthurt that even with new codex bikes do not count as objective secured unit even in Saim-Hann detachment.

I know what you mean. 7th ed troop Windriders were definitely broken, but with all the changes made to them in 8th, Windriders should have been able to be Troops and/or get Objective Secured for Saim-Hann. Same goes for Iyanden Wraithguard.

Dionysodorus wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
So I keep thinking to take shuriken cannons everywhere I can because of Battle Focus or because things want to be mobile. Like guardian weapon platforms, wraithlords, war walkers, even wave serpents, I keep gravitating back to taking shuriken cannons but this is leaving me inadequate with anti elite/anti-tank things.

Shuriken catapults are surprisingly effective anti-tank weapons, and become great with Doom. I will gladly throw Guardians at a Land Raider if it's Doomed. Like, Guardians pay 54 ppw against T8 2+ normally, and only 29 ppw if it's Doomed. A stationary twin BL War Walker (this is about as efficient as lances get) pays 46 ppw normally, and 31 ppw if Doomed. Against T7 3+ the Guardians pay 31/19 ppw while the War Walker pays 29/22 ppw. The shuriken rule loads a weapon's damage into the 6 to-wound, which means that shuriken weapons lose effectiveness only very slowly as toughness increases as long as AP-3 is useful. Shuriken cannons aren't good anti-tank, however, since you have to pay a lot more for them per shot and the higher strength doesn't matter much (a catapult and cannon are almost the same per shot against a Doomed Land Raider). But the point is that you can have good anti-tank with a mobile shuriken-based list as long as you have plenty of Guardians or maybe Dire Avengers. Shining Spears are also incredibly good at killing tanks. Like, more efficient than Fire Dragons good.

This matches my experiences. I think Shuriken Cannons may be slightly better vs T3-5 and T8-11, but they have an associated cost. No one quivered at my 2 Shuriken Cannons in the 20 Guardian blob, but they did grumble a bit at the pile of Catapults unloading. Shuriken Cannons are nice as a touch for the mobile units: Guardian weapon platforms, War Walkers, Wave Serpents, etc. My feeling about high Shuriken weapon lists is that they are our highest rate of fire. What's good right now? Masses of bodies. What does Eldar have that is good for clearing that mess out? Shuriken Catapults. Sorry Swooping Hawks, you're not the best... but at least you're not BAD!

Weight of Fire is important in this game, right now, isn't it?

Shuriken (Catapults and Cannons) both seem to have a fair bit of upside against most things they engage, mainly because you're relying on 1) your opponent to fail AP 0 saves, and 2) rolling 6's. Unload some Guardians on a Rhino... toss a little psychic support for lawls (because you did bring Psykers, right?), and be surprised how well those little guns can do.

It is like a lasgun, only instead of wounding on 6s... it practically kills on 6s.

Edit:

As an afterthought...

What about Twin-catapult Windriders? Maybe take 1 Cannon, if even that. The cost stays low, you get a mobile platform to drive some weight of fire around. 9 points/catapult. Slightly more than a guardian, with better stats.

Instead of lamenting over loss of Scatter bikes, or that Shuri-cannon bikes getting deleted too easily... maybe just cheap them instead.

I like this Alaitoc list, all minimum sized:

3 Hemlocks
3 Reapers
3 Spectres
3 Spears
6 Rangers
Illic/Farseer Skyrunner/Spiritseer

13 CP.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
What about Twin-catapult Windriders?

They look good on paper (like 11.5 points DAs but with +1T and no transport), but there is a chance anything competent in melee would just multicharge-delete them next turn since they don't have move-shoot-move rule anymore.

Purifying Tempest wrote:

As an afterthought...

What about Twin-catapult Windriders? Maybe take 1 Cannon, if even that. The cost stays low, you get a mobile platform to drive some weight of fire around. 9 points/catapult. Slightly more than a guardian, with better stats.

Instead of lamenting over loss of Scatter bikes, or that Shuri-cannon bikes getting deleted too easily... maybe just cheap them instead.

Yeah, I think this is probably the best way to take Windriders, it just still isn't all that great. Note that they're 23 points apiece, not 18 -- the twin catapults are 5. You can pay 8 points and upgrade to Spears, which is a no-brainer. I could believe that Spears are a little too cheap but Windriders are still significantly overpriced. At 18 they'd look a lot better, despite their vulnerability to plasma. Ultimately, Guardians, Dire Avengers, and Windriders are more-or-less suicide units. Their value to you is almost entirely in their offense, and if they don't die immediately after shooting it's because your strike was so effective that there's nothing to shoot back at them. Dire Avengers and catapult Windriders are going to take a backseat to Guardians as long as Guardians are a significantly cheaper way to deliver catapult fire. Yes, they (and Avengers) need a Serpent (or webway strike), but Serpents are good. And Windriders are really vulnerable to your opponent's first turn shooting. In many ways they're less durable than Guardians, and being able to start shooting on turn 1 is not that big of a deal when the Guardians could just sit safely inside their Serpents and wait for turn 2 (plus then the Serpents can charge in and try to keep the Guardians alive for turn 3).

A bit of a shame. I thought about adding 6 jetbikes once I finish painting my troop choices.

The biggest deterrent for Windriders is that they do not fill minimum slots in a Battalion like DAs and Guardians. Sure you could use an Outrider, but not only are you gimping yourself on CPs but why not just take Spears instead.
Personally, I'll still be using 12 Windriders in my casual lists because that has always been my core army since 4th, but they are not worth my competitive list in 8th.

Here is a question for you (it is Ynarri query but specifically relates to Craftworld Stratagems)

If you take a Ynarri Detachment, then in theory each unit in the detachment can be from a different Craftworld (as you still get to allocate the key word, they just don’t benefit from the Craftworld traits and abilities)

So if you take a Brigade then in theory you can include in the detachment an Iyanden spirit seer and a unit of Saim Hann Shining Spear squad, opening up the use of their specific Craftworld Stratagems for them.

Am I understanding that correctly? Does make a Ynarri Detachment to be able to make best use of the various Craftworld stratagems and still be battleforgef and SfD to boot.

Drake003 wrote:
Here is a question for you (it is Ynarri query but specifically relates to Craftworld Stratagems)

If you take a Ynarri Detachment, then in theory each unit in the detachment can be from a different Craftworld (as you still get to allocate the key word, they just don’t benefit from the Craftworld traits and abilities)

So if you take a Brigade then in theory you can include in the detachment an Iyanden spirit seer and a unit of Saim Hann Shining Spear squad, opening up the use of their specific Craftworld Stratagems for them.

Am I understanding that correctly? Does make a Ynarri Detachment to be able to make best use of the various Craftworld stratagems and still be battleforgef and SfD to boot.

No it does not work that way. In order to use CW Stratagems, you need at least 1 CW Detachment. By having a single Ynnari unit in the detachment, it automatically disqualifies it from being a CW detachment.

However, if you have at least 1 CW detachment with no Ynnari units, but a separate detachment with Ynnari, then you do have access to CW Stratagems and they can affect Ynnari units so long as they have the appropriate keywords. Bout you would only get access to the CW stratagem of the CW you choose for the 1 CW detachment.

In order to get access to all CW specific stratagems, you would have to have 6 detahcments: 1 Ynnari and 1 for each of the 5 CWs. Matched play only suggests 3 detachments.

-

Hi Galef,

Sorry I should have quantified that the army overall does indeed contain an Alaitoc Air Wing Detachment to unlock Craftworld Stratagems, with Ynarri Brigade to generate CPs with a single larger unit of each Spectres, Spears and Dark Reapers and (Black) guardians as targets for key psychic powers and Stratagems.

So wanted to check that both the Ulthwe Guardians and Saim Hann Spears can benefit from their respective Stratagems.

Drake003 wrote:
Hi Galef,

Sorry I should have quantified that the army overall does indeed contain an Alaitoc Air Wing Detachment to unlock Craftworld Stratagems, with Ynarri Brigade to generate CPs with a single larger unit of each Spectres, Spears and Dark Reapers and (Black) guardians.

So wanted to check that both the Ulthwe Guardians and Saim Hann Spears can benefit from their respective Stratagems.

There's a lot of Craftworlds mentioned in that. Make sure to know that Craftworld traits are by detachment, not by unit. I'm also pretty sure being Ynnari revokes their Craftworld trait, as well.

If you really want to cheese Ynnari, take 3 Warlocks or Spirit Seers in a Craftworld Supreme Command Detachment, and make the rest of your army Ynnari as you please.

I think the Ynnari guys already got the boot from here And I prefer pure Craftworld lists, too... especially being Biel-tan.

Yes it is not the traits I am looking at, purely the relevant Craftworld keyword which they keep when they are chosen as per of a Ynarri Detachment.

The advantage of the Brigade I was describing above is not the various craftworld attributes but purely the Stratagems that are opened up, both in qty of CPs and selection of Craftworld specific Stratagems in concert with generic Craftworld Stratagems.

Drake003 wrote:
Hi Galef,

Sorry I should have quantified that the army overall does indeed contain an Alaitoc Air Wing Detachment to unlock Craftworld Stratagems, with Ynarri Brigade to generate CPs with a single larger unit of each Spectres, Spears and Dark Reapers and (Black) guardians as targets for key psychic powers and Stratagems.

So wanted to check that both the Ulthwe Guardians and Saim Hann Spears can benefit from their respective Stratagems.

From what you describe, you only get access to the generic CW stratagems and the Alaitoc ones, because you do not have any Ulthwe or Saim-Hann DETACHMENTS.

Having Ulthwe or Saim-hann units does not get you access to the stratagems. You need a detachment full of units with the same CW keyword and NO Ynnari in order to get the stratagem.

EDIT: actually, you may have a point. Having a CW detachment (like an Alaitoc Flyer detachment) technically grants access to ALL CW stratagems.
You may have found an interesting loop-hole

-

 Galef wrote:
The biggest deterrent for Windriders is that they do not fill minimum slots in a Battalion like DAs and Guardians. Sure you could use an Outrider, but not only are you gimping yourself on CPs but why not just take Spears instead.

Spears have antiquated models, although now that you mentioned it I think most of my regular opponents will have no problems with me using plain windriders as spears.

 Galef wrote:
The biggest deterrent for Windriders is that they do not fill minimum slots in a Battalion

Yeah, that's another thing. Why take troops with shuriken catapults when they don't give you any command points.

How do you people like Spiders now?

5 Spiders with Exarch & 2 guns: 98 points, 6 wounds, 12 shots rending -4, deep strike, better save, can take cover, flickerjump, shoot after fallback, re-roll morale.
3 windriders with SC: 84 points, 6 wounds, 9 shots, higher T but lower save, etc.

Galef,

That is exactly where I am coming from. RAW simply having a Craftworld detachment unlocks access to all Craftworld stratagems, you just need to meet the criteria to use each one.

So having Ynarri Detachment with a mix looks to me like you can use even though with various Craftworld criteria aslong as you note the relevant Craftword key word for each unit.

That’s as I read it and believe RAW

 Knight wrote:
Spears have antiquated models, although now that you mentioned it I think most of my regular opponents will have no problems with me using plain windriders as spears.

Yeah, my Windriders are the old plastics (the same ones that the Shining Spears still come with) and I've added DE Scourge heads on them.
It probably would not be hard to glue a spear onto them and call them Shining Spears since technically the majority of the model is the same as the current Spears and nothing like the current Windriders

Drake003 wrote:
Galef,

That is exactly where I am coming from. RAW simply having a Craftworld detachment unlocks access to all Craftworld stratagems, you just need to meet the criteria to use each one.

So having Ynarri Detachment with a mix looks to me like you can use even though with various Craftworld criteria aslong as you note the relevant Craftword key word for each unit.

That’s as I read it and believe RAW

You might be right.

Not just me then. Certainly makes filling Brigade very easy and cheap, allowing more points to be spent on your key units to benefit from SfD. Cheap 35 Troop units, 30pt elites unit, and 20pt fast attack unit, can really pile your points into the real hard hitters (Reapers, Spectres, Spears and even Black guardians now with Stratagems)

Wayniac wrote:
So I keep thinking to take shuriken cannons everywhere I can because of Battle Focus or because things want to be mobile. Like guardian weapon platforms, wraithlords, war walkers, even wave serpents, I keep gravitating back to taking shuriken cannons but this is leaving me inadequate with anti elite/anti-tank things.

I agree, a lot of the "classic" Eldar heavy weapon caddies do better with Shuricannons than other weapons. While weight of fire is good, I agree it can leave you feeling a bit under-equipped to deal with tough targets.

My solution is Dark Reapers, Hemlocks, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons and Fire Prisms. All these units offer solutions to units that you will struggle to take down with Shuricannons alone. 2 Fire Prisms with the Linked Fire stratagem effectively count as having both Guide and Doom and each can fire twice. Also you can get away with only moving one of them to get LOS. A 4+ to hit doesn't sting quite so much with rerolls.

Reapers always hit on a 3+ and are probably more reliable than Starcannons IMHO. They also have the flexibility to take on heavier targets if needed and provide decent anti-air. I convert and AML Exarch years ago that now suddenly has a stratagem to help him down aircraft.

Hemlocks are a steal at 200 points and I can honestly see myself putting one in every list. Wraithguard and Fire Dragons fill a similar niche and provide something to put in those Shuricannon Wave Serpents.

Even with the price cuts in the Codex, I don't feel that Brightlances and Starcannons fill a role that cannot be performed better by other weapons.

 Knight wrote:

 Galef wrote:
The biggest deterrent for Windriders is that they do not fill minimum slots in a Battalion like DAs and Guardians. Sure you could use an Outrider, but not only are you gimping yourself on CPs but why not just take Spears instead.

Spears have antiquated models, although now that you mentioned it I think most of my regular opponents will have no problems with me using plain windriders as spears.

As long as Shining Spears have those old, ugly models it's like they didn't exist for me. People keep swearing by their rules and I couldn't bear myself to field them in their current form.

 DanielFM wrote:

 Knight wrote:

 Galef wrote:
The biggest deterrent for Windriders is that they do not fill minimum slots in a Battalion like DAs and Guardians. Sure you could use an Outrider, but not only are you gimping yourself on CPs but why not just take Spears instead.

Spears have antiquated models, although now that you mentioned it I think most of my regular opponents will have no problems with me using plain windriders as spears.

As long as Shining Spears have those old, ugly models it's like they didn't exist for me. People keep swearing by their rules and I couldn't bear myself to field them in their current form.

I actually kind of like them, the riders themselves at least. Looks a little like a Eldarish jousting knight without being blatant and obvious about it. Mine are all old and metal, I don't know how the mold has stood up to the tests of time and finecast.

Those old style Jetbikes are a bit ugly though they could certainly use an update.

Spartacus wrote:

 DanielFM wrote:

 Knight wrote:

 Galef wrote:
The biggest deterrent for Windriders is that they do not fill minimum slots in a Battalion like DAs and Guardians. Sure you could use an Outrider, but not only are you gimping yourself on CPs but why not just take Spears instead.

Spears have antiquated models, although now that you mentioned it I think most of my regular opponents will have no problems with me using plain windriders as spears.

As long as Shining Spears have those old, ugly models it's like they didn't exist for me. People keep swearing by their rules and I couldn't bear myself to field them in their current form.

I actually kind of like them, the riders themselves at least. Looks a little like a Eldarish jousting knight without being blatant and obvious about it. Mine are all old and metal, I don't know how the mold has stood up to the tests of time and finecast.

Those old style Jetbikes are a bit ugly though they could certainly use an update.

Isn't the only difference between wind riders and shining spears that the guy on the bike is holding a lance? Oh, and maybe a little flag on the back?

This seems like the easiest conversion ever. I converted 3 of my old guardian jetbikes into singing-spear seer council warlocks years ago, and it can only be easier now that there is new wind-rider bike models and actual warlock on jetbike model to kitbash together.

I’m looking at my giant pile of painted warlocks (left over from Ulthwe Strike Force days), and looking for dangerous assaulty things to put into Wave Serpents for a mechanized assault army and wondering about a 10-warlock conclave.

Before you scoff, hear me out. In my meta I struggle with high-toughness characters with crazy effective saves (Guilliman and Magnus mainly) and the occasional big bug with venomthrope/malanthrope shrouding, and the odd superheavy.

So 10 warlocks jump out of a wave serpent, do a d6 mortal wound destructor, and pile into the character with 20 melee attacks that hit on 3s and wound on 2s. No AP, but these characters never have a save worse than 3+ anyway. Expected about 13 or 14 wounds, 2 or 3 pass through on a 2+ save, about 4 on a 3+.

So that already with the smite is maybe 5-7 wounds putting a decent hurt on the 9-wound characters (and probably taking down any lesser character).

Now add jinx, which the conclave can cast themselves in addition to destructor. Now add enhance, which the warlocks can also cast on themselves the same phase as jinx and destructor. The numbers start to look really good. Now Guilliman is trying to roll 15 or 18 3+ saves, after already having taken 3 or 4 mortal wounds.

Or, if it looks like a long fight, the conclave can cast protection on itself (instead of enhance) for some 3+ invulnerables.

And then you can add additional gravy on top of that: put a farseer in the serpent for seer council strategem and the option to doom the target. Put an autarch in the area to buff the hit rolls. None of this is really necessary—the warlocks can nearly do it on their own—but you need HQs anyway and they need to be in a serpent anyhow, so they might as well jump in on assassinating the lynchpin character of your opponent’s army.

So I haven’t played enough 8th edition yet to know if my ideas are crap, but please don’t reply with “You’re spending XXX points to kill a 360 point character!” It’s a mech assault army, so I’d be buying the serpents and HQs anyway.

I don’t see anything else I can put into a single serpent for 300 points that will do what a warlock conclave can do.

Oh wait, witchblades are d3 wounds! So double all those expected melee wound values (or, if you have my dice, just expect the single wound values).