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This hemlock tactic works great, it also works well as a defensive screen on setup. Works best with ulthwe I think as you are always rolling 6+ *2 for wounding even with smites.

eldritchstormer wrote:
This hemlock tactic works great, it also works well as a defensive screen on setup. Works best with ulthwe I think as you are always rolling 6+ *2 for wounding even with smites.

Glad you are having success with this tactic. I think it is definitely something that Niiru should include in his Tactica website.

Please note though that with Spriit Stones on Hemlock, you don’t benefit from being Ulthwe. You pick which 6+++ to take, you can’t take both. The only Craftworld trait that really benefits a Hemlock is the Alaitoc for the -1 to hit, which is why I suggested moving them up to just outside 12” from the heavy guns. To ensure they are at -2 to hit them -1 for hard to hit rule and -1 for either Alaitoc trait (more than 12” away) or —1 for moving into 12” within a Heavy Weapon.

Drake003 wrote:

eldritchstormer wrote:
This hemlock tactic works great, it also works well as a defensive screen on setup. Works best with ulthwe I think as you are always rolling 6+ *2 for wounding even with smites.

Glad you are having success with this tactic. I think it is definitely something that Niiru should include in his Tactica website.

Please note though that with Spriit Stones on Hemlock, you don’t benefit from being Ulthwe. You pick which 6+++ to take, you can’t take both. The only Craftworld trait that really benefits a Hemlock is the Alaitoc for the -1 to hit, which is why I suggested moving them up to just outside 12” from the heavy guns. To ensure they are at -2 to hit them -1 for hard to hit rule and -1 for either Alaitoc trait (more than 12” away) or —1 for moving into 12” within a Heavy Weapon.

I haven't played with Flyers at all, so I haven't gotten to that part of the Tactica yet as I would need to rely on others for the accurate information. I will make a note of this in the Hemlock section though so that it gets written up correctly when the time comes

This is one of the things that makes the Hemlock so good. It needs to be close to use its guns, but can be used during deployment to prevent assault units from popping up and getting at the core of your army.
I plan to use this in concert with rangers to make a parameter around my army to reduce alpha strikes and buy a turn or 2 of additional shooting (which is often all you need to win)

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Drake003 wrote:
With Tyranids our soon, and all their anti psychic options, it seems that they are going to be putting a spanner in the works for as straight away, trying to cast our various buff and de-buff powers.

Depending on the army composition and weapon options encouraged in the Codex, I am going to assume that they won’t have too many flying gribblies (it’s not particularly thematic) and will likely be limited to Gargoyles and Hive Tyrants, as is currently the case.

That being the case, finding ways to slow their advance will be even more critical than before to keep out psychic support up as long as possible.

My first strategic thought is using Air Wing to stop a significant section of their army moving up the board.

I.e. fly 3 Hemlocks up just outside of 12” if Exocrines and their ilk, and as close to the grunts as possible. 3 flyers in a line parallel to the swarm facing 90 degrees and just under 3” apart from each other will generate an impassable line of just under 20” long.

This would be an effective way of shutting down lanes of approach to you.

Sound decent?

Are Hemlocks only 5" at their widest? Sounds good, but not at the expense of losing a turn of useful shooting. Tricky to pull off with Flyers, but good for the bag of tricks.

Drake003 wrote:
With Tyranids our soon, and all their anti psychic options, it seems that they are going to be putting a spanner in the works for as straight away, trying to cast our various buff and de-buff powers.

Depending on the army composition and weapon options encouraged in the Codex, I am going to assume that they won’t have too many flying gribblies (it’s not particularly thematic) and will likely be limited to Gargoyles and Hive Tyrants, as is currently the case.

That being the case, finding ways to slow their advance will be even more critical than before to keep out psychic support up as long as possible.

My first strategic thought is using Air Wing to stop a significant section of their army moving up the board.

I.e. fly 3 Hemlocks up just outside of 12” if Exocrines and their ilk, and as close to the grunts as possible. 3 flyers in a line parallel to the swarm facing 90 degrees and just under 3” apart from each other will generate an impassable line of just under 20” long.

This would be an effective way of shutting down lanes of approach to you.

Sound decent?

tyranids are just going to destroy our flyers with hive tyrants. Hemlock has decent overwatch BUT it still only averages 3 hits - only wounds a tyrant on 3's and then he has a 4++ save. Then he gets to hit you at 2+ to hit with 4 devastating attacks. He will also auto hit you with his miasm cannon - which is already pretty painful. Can also charge you with gargoyles or something too to clear overwatch. Kronus nids are going to hard counter eldar so hard it's not even funny. Nids get right in your face so -1 to hit is going to be practically never. Warlocks and hemlocks trying to cast powers needing 7's at -1. Taking d3 mortals for every failed test within range of the warlord. It's gonna be ugly.

 Xenomancers wrote:
tyranids are just going to destroy our flyers with hive tyrants. Hemlock has decent overwatch BUT it still only averages 3 hits - only wounds a tyrant on 3's and then he has a 4++ save. Then he gets to hit you at 2+ to hit with 4 devastating attacks. He will also auto hit you with his miasm cannon - which is already pretty painful. Can also charge you with gargoyles or something too to clear overwatch. Kronus nids are going to hard counter eldar so hard it's not even funny. Nids get right in your face so -1 to hit is going to be practically never. Warlocks and hemlocks trying to cast powers needing 7's at -1. Taking d3 mortals for every failed test within range of the warlord. It's gonna be ugly.

These are good points to be aware of, but not exactly a foregone conclusion. If they have Tyrants, make them your first targets. Kill them with Dark Reapers

Actually, this is a good excuse to use Crimson Hunters as they get a bonus against unit with Fly and do not have to be as close.

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If your opponent is playing a competitive Tyranid list, expect them to take a small Kronos detachment. Rippers deepstriking around your deployment zone will give them the ability to cover pretty much the entire table in range of their stratagem, which is pretty much an auto-fail for most of our buffs. Granted, they can only do it once per turn, but they only need to make you fail the one you need.

But seriously, Tyranids are looking like a pretty hard counter for Eldar right now. No idea how we'll end up taking on an optimized nid force.

I get what your saying. Ideally those Hemlocks though will already have shot the Hive Tyrant in your turn to soften him up (he has more than 10 wounds) 3 Hemlocks will on average score 12 hits, (assuming not doomed due to their shenanigans, though can potentially still Doom) 8 Wounds. 4 get through his inv save for 8 damage.

That will make him think twice about charging them with their auto hits.

There aren’t many things that can threaten them in Melee so focus on those that can first.

Nids shooting should be too scary aside from auto hitting options due to the -modifiers and their innate average BS. They may be able to pump out a bit more effective shots now, we will see...

He will also need to dedicate a decent amount of resources and time to tackle that roadblock, which buys you time to thin out the horde and exocrines with the rest of your army..


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Galef, you are starting to convince me to use a Crimson Hunter Exarch!?!

-1 is not a huge casting penalty. For example, Eldrad with pocket warlock with stratagem casts at +1 and +2 with next power on a success with re-roll from runes. Biel Tan farseer has a relic that I believe allows to re-roll re-rolls or somethin. Yvraine has flat +1 at all times too, but doesn't have runes so she will probably suffer more.

It’s the 1d6 only on casting role that is the problem though

 Shadenuat wrote:
-1 is not a huge casting penalty. For example, Eldrad with pocket warlock with stratagem casts at +1 and +2 with next power on a success with re-roll from runes. Biel Tan farseer has a relic that I believe allows to re-roll re-rolls or somethin. Yvraine has flat +1 at all times too, but doesn't have runes so she will probably suffer more.

Kronos stratagem makes you roll a psychic test on 1D6 if you're within 24" of a Kronos model (it's 2CP, but Nids can generate a near limitless amount, so nothing to worry about there for them) . Combine that with a longer-ranged SITW. Have fun.

Also, turn 1 deep striking rippers shouldn’t be too bad, just ensure your deployment ensures they can’t get too close and then clear them out with Shurikan fire pronto.

Kronos stratagem makes you roll a psychic test on 1D6 if you're within 24" of a Kronos model

Welp, that does suck.

Deployment will be critical against Nids. Keep them at arms length from your psyker as long as possible and target flyers and Synapse with vengeance

It actually would give Conclave some purpose with it's option to cast from '36 range, if the unit wasn't so poor.

24" range means that your psykers will be relegated to a pretty harmless position if you intend on keeping them out. If they get the first turn, combined with Flyrant shenanigans, they've basically denied your first psychic phase (and sure, it's only one turn, but that matters massively in 8th).

If they get second, you get one turn of action before your psykers are neutered.

Either way, it looks like any game against Tyranids where you don't secure victory on the first turn is going to be a hard loss for Eldar.

What else is there? Kronos stratagem only works for a single psychic test, and in MP game you can only use the same stratagem once per phase. (and it's actually 1CP, really cheap stuff)

 Shadenuat wrote:
-1 is not a huge casting penalty. For example, Eldrad with pocket warlock with stratagem casts at +1 and +2 with next power on a success with re-roll from runes. Biel Tan farseer has a relic that I believe allows to re-roll re-rolls or somethin. Yvraine has flat +1 at all times too, but doesn't have runes so she will probably suffer more.

It's the runes of battle powers that are in serious jeopardy. Most are 7's to cast - with no runes of the farseer to help cast. Plus Nid's can shut your best power down every turn for 1 command point.


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 Fafnir wrote:
24" range means that your psykers will be relegated to a pretty harmless position if you intend on keeping them out. If they get the first turn, combined with Flyrant shenanigans, they've basically denied your first psychic phase (and sure, it's only one turn, but that matters massively in 8th).

If they get second, you get one turn of action before your psykers are neutered.

Either way, it looks like any game against Tyranids where you don't secure victory on the first turn is going to be a hard loss for Eldar.

Thats kinda the way I see it. Also - Nids are pretty good at protecting their good stuff on the first turn. Tyrants can all deep strike if they have wings. Their heavy hitting elements all come in via deep strike. The one advantage eldar have is forewarning. That makes deep striking tyrants risky as heck.

While it's true that it can only be used once per phase, it's all about the psychological threat of being able to block the one power that you really need at a given time.

Psychic Scream (can be any hive fleet) is a WC5 power that can be cast to make you forget a psychic power (1MW and roll 2D6, if it exceeds your leadership, lose a random power).

Kronos Warlord trait makes psykers who fail psychic tests within 18" of the warlord suffer D3 MW.

Essentially, if your opponent declares that their Kronos Flyrant is their warlord, they come in turn one (and they now have the mobility to get there through a variety of means, so deepstrike defense is not infallible), throw up a -1 modifier with SITW, and threaten you with an autofail with Dd3MW as penalty. They can then snipe out one psyker a turn with Psychic Scream, potentially costing you a power. So not only are you at a much greater risk of failing your psychic tests, but doing so will cause your psykers to drop like flies.

All this discussion is doing is making me glad that Eldar psykers were never something I spammed, preferring Autarchs instead.

This also makes me think that Rangers are more competitive than Dire Avengers as they can deploy outside your deployment zone as a buffer to keep armies like this at bay.
It might even be worth placing 2-3 units in a way that prevents Reinforcements units deploying behind them, but just forward enough so that Flying units cannot fly over them in the first turn. Using pre-measurement, you could put them in a way the forces enemy Flying units from moving their full movement since they still have to land 1" away
For Example, if a unit has 16" move, than place the Rangers at 16-18" depending on the base size of the enemy. Even if they Advance, the unit will not be able to land behind the Rangers and be 1" away.

Of course the Ranger will die, but they'll give you the turn you need to keep the enemy away.

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Kronos are nasty, though if Smite spam is forced out with the Chapter Approved, players may be less inclined to take that Hive Fleet, as the benefits will become a lot more narrow within the meta.

Have to see how the environment pans out.

The best one of our powers I can think of is Word of the Phoenix, but soulburst can happen without that power too.

Is Kronos a worthy fleet to go if you don't always play against eldar though?

And yes Galef, deployment will be critical against Nids. Rangers will be a must, even if only a couple of units to keep them honest.

We have the tools to keep our psyker at range for as much as possible and mitigate DS shenanigans, just need to bring the right tools and tactics.


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I would argue our best power is Doom as it benefits more than 1 unit and potentially our whole army.

Kronos I don’t think will be auto take Hive Fleet unless there are atleast half a dozen psyker on most top tables. There ability only nerfs a very small percentage of most armies, and some have no psyker at all. There are much better army wide traits to take. But in a psyker Heavy meta then they are a solid take.

Multiple deep-striking Rippers would be a problem, probably, but I don't feel like it's generally too hard to be 24" away from stuff. A Tyranid player will be able to shut down Doom, but Guide and Fortune cast on friendlies, which are probably closer to your Farseer, and you can move at least 7+d6" before manifesting. The Battle powers are 18" but the ones you really want to get off are also cast on friendlies, and they're also all no-LoS. It's going to be very hard for a Tyranid player to shut down Quicken, Conceal, or Protect.

You push back their deep strikers with your deployment and your Rangers, and you should pretty much always be able to get your first turn buff powers off. I feel like the bigger concern is making sure that your psykers aren't vulnerable to deep strikers on the next turn, after they've moved so as to get their powers off.

 Shadenuat wrote:
The best one of our powers I can think of is Word of the Phoenix, but soulburst can happen without that power too.

Is Kronos a worthy fleet to go if you don't always play against eldar though?

Hard to say what fleet is best. Kronos is great for their big artiliery creatures like exocrines and tyranofexes (they are much better now) because they get reroll 1's to hit if they stay still. Kronos also seems to have some good relics. I think it will be a highly played fleet. The other fleets aren't bad though. They can even mix fleets. Just need the Kronos warlord to really hurt psychics.


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Dionysodorus wrote:
Multiple deep-striking Rippers would be a problem, probably, but I don't feel like it's generally too hard to be 24" away from stuff. A Tyranid player will be able to shut down Doom, but Guide and Fortune cast on friendlies, which are probably closer to your Farseer, and you can move at least 7+d6" before manifesting. The Battle powers are 18" but the ones you really want to get off are also cast on friendlies, and they're also all no-LoS. It's going to be very hard for a Tyranid player to shut down Quicken, Conceal, or Protect.

You push back their deep strikers with your deployment and your Rangers, and you should pretty much always be able to get your first turn buff powers off. I feel like the bigger concern is making sure that your psykers aren't vulnerable to deep strikers on the next turn, after they've moved so as to get their powers off.

It's going to be mostly impossible to stay more than 18 inches away from a bunch of flying hive tyrants. most Tyranid armies are deep striking a swarmlord onto the front lines. You really can't escape the nids. They are very mobile.

Drake003 wrote:
Kronos are nasty, though if Smite spam is forced out with the Chapter Approved, players may be less inclined to take that Hive Fleet, as the benefits will become a lot more narrow within the meta.

Have to see how the environment pans out.

The problem is that if Kronos and the like is GW's method of dealing with Smite spam, they end up hurting less degenerate, synergistic based powers so very much more. Tyranids don't have to pay much towards getting this level of dominance, so the threat of that should always be at the forefront.

I imagine it'll be an omnipresent enough threat amoung competitive Tyranid builds to push Eldar casting out of the competitive meta.

 Shadenuat wrote:
The best one of our powers I can think of is Word of the Phoenix, but soulburst can happen without that power too.

Is Kronos a worthy fleet to go if you don't always play against eldar though?

You can easily run a cheap Kronos detachment for psychic denial. A few rippers, a flyrant. Maybe some gunbeasts to take advantage of that faction trait. Since nids have such an easy time putting together (potentially multiple) brigade detachments, using a third for psychic dominance will not be a huge opportunity cost for the new dex. They'll be drowning in command points no matter how they run.

Dionysodorus wrote:
But the bigger issue for bright lances is just that there aren't many good platforms for them. You can't take something like a quad-las Predator, or a Dreadnought with a twin lascannon and a missile launcher, or a Devastator squad holed up in cover.

This is exactly the problem. Marines have at least 3 units off the top of my head that can pack 4 Lascannons, Eldar don't have anything that can take more than 2 of them (I suppose if you run squadrons of War walkers). Wave Serpents and Wraithlords generally want to move either to transport units or to get close to the enemy in order to hit them. Guardians sitting back with a Brightlance are paying for a lot of Shuricats that are not being used. The Falcon is an option but if you are going to use it as a static gun platform then I think the Fire Prism is a better bet.

Dark Eldar don't have this problem as Darklances become Assault when mounted on their vehicles. That is why DL-spam is a thing. If CWE had a similar rule then Brightlances would be a lot more viable. As it stands I think that War Walkers are the only unit that can spam them moderately effectively. The -1 to Hit when moving is a hindrance for Brightlances and you can only Guide one unit per turn. I know there are plenty of armies who would be happy hitting on a 4+ but they don't pay as much for their heavy weapons.

 Karhedron wrote:
I know there are plenty of armies who would be happy hitting on a 4+ but they don't pay as much for their heavy weapons.

I think there are more armies who would be happy to have something like WW with it's high stats, good bs, outflank, 5++ etc. Not to name things like Crimson Hunters who outperform DEs Ravagers by far.
We take too many things for granted.

 Xenomancers wrote:

tyranids are just going to destroy our flyers with hive tyrants. Hemlock has decent overwatch BUT it still only averages 3 hits - only wounds a tyrant on 3's and then he has a 4++ save. Then he gets to hit you at 2+ to hit with 4 devastating attacks. He will also auto hit you with his miasm cannon - which is already pretty painful. Can also charge you with gargoyles or something too to clear overwatch. Kronus nids are going to hard counter eldar so hard it's not even funny. Nids get right in your face so -1 to hit is going to be practically never. Warlocks and hemlocks trying to cast powers needing 7's at -1. Taking d3 mortals for every failed test within range of the warlord. It's gonna be ugly.

What's the T stat of a hive tyrant, I thought they used to be T5? Shouldn't a hemlock be wounding a tyrant on 2s now? Even if they are T6 it's still 2s because the heavy d-scythe is bumped up to Str 12 in the codex.


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 Karhedron wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
But the bigger issue for bright lances is just that there aren't many good platforms for them. You can't take something like a quad-las Predator, or a Dreadnought with a twin lascannon and a missile launcher, or a Devastator squad holed up in cover.

This is exactly the problem. Marines have at least 3 units off the top of my head that can pack 4 Lascannons, Eldar don't have anything that can take more than 2 of them (I suppose if you run squadrons of War walkers). Wave Serpents and Wraithlords generally want to move either to transport units or to get close to the enemy in order to hit them. Guardians sitting back with a Brightlance are paying for a lot of Shuricats that are not being used. The Falcon is an option but if you are going to use it as a static gun platform then I think the Fire Prism is a better bet.

Dark Eldar don't have this problem as Darklances become Assault when mounted on their vehicles. That is why DL-spam is a thing. If CWE had a similar rule then Brightlances would be a lot more viable. As it stands I think that War Walkers are the only unit that can spam them moderately effectively. The -1 to Hit when moving is a hindrance for Brightlances and you can only Guide one unit per turn. I know there are plenty of armies who would be happy hitting on a 4+ but they don't pay as much for their heavy weapons.

I think this is why Reapers are popular, especially now that they have a Str 8 mode on their launchers. They are our only option for a massed ranged heavy weapons unit.