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What is the best way to run 20 man webway guardian bombs?

Ulthwe seems obvious and needs less support, but also looks to be cp heavy (1 cp for drop, 1 for 2+ bs, 1 for shield or fade and fire).

Biel-Tan needs the least support/cp with built in re-rolls. But will die right after with no support.

Alaitoc can bring a farseer or spiritseer along, using the relic shroud, for doom/guide or conceal. Fire and Fade helps since they can be 19 inches out after firing. If you go this route the warlord trait isn't awful for fearless too.

Iyanden has the lowest damage potential, but you never have to worry about casualties or morale. They can get stuck in on an objective.

What is everyone thinking? Is it worth supporting them when they drop (Alaitoc) or just using the unit as a fire and forget bomb (Ulthwe, Biel-Tan)? Any other combos or use cases I overlooked?

Alaitoc also has the advantage that if the Warlord drops in the same time using the relic Shroud, the Guardians are immune to Morale which is a big deal on a 20-man blob.

In my own games the only stratagems I have used have been the base ones and the avatar one once. Swarmlord charges and kills avatar. Avatar "revives". Now it's my turn. Avatar returns the favor.

 Korlandril wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:


I just double checked in case I did something wrong or missed something and in the codex and there is nothing in there for warwalkers that states they act independent of each other after deployment, so they are a single unit of 3 that must keep squad coherency, so when the power fortune targets a unit all 3 get the bonus.

You are totally correct. How strange. This actually increases my opinion of war walkers as it means they can take buffs from psychic abilities the same as Vypers can. Vypers get the benefit of craftworld attributes though, but even so I think war walkers pull ahead (if you have a psyker near them).

Might even be good to have a warlock nearby, conceal would give the war walkers the equivalent of the Alaitoc -1 to hit, or protect/jinx could improve your invulnerable to a 4++ or drop the enemy unit's saves if they get close enough.

You are talking as if War Walkers don't benefit from craftworld attributes, you know they can right?

I actually don't remember why I put attributes... I can't even remember writing this haha. Might have been very, very tired.

I think I was just talking about the Saim-Hann attribute specifically. Vypers don't get the movement penalty on heavy weapons, but war walkers do. But you'd just use a different attribute for walkers anyway.

Played my first game with ulthwe last night against emperors children. I got to go first and just played defensive. I had 2 - 20 man guardian drops that I saved until he got close on the second turn and I had 20 dire avengers in 2 serpants. The rest of my army was 2 fire prisms a crimson hunter - eldrad a farseer and 2 warlocks and 2 D cannons.

Fire prisms - crimson hunter and D cannons managed to kill a rhino and a 10 man noise marine and seriously hurt a maulerfiend. Next turn he moved up - focued the D cannons and killed both and he tried to damage the prisms with range but failed. Start of turn 2 I brought out all my infantry and it was pretty much over at that point.

1 unit of gardians (w 2 bright lance) I used to destroy his other noise marine rhino with 10 more noise marines in it with the help of doom and Black gardians stratagem (he popped smoke). The prisims killed the 10 noise marines inside with their linked fire stratagem and the low power fire mode (did 12 wounds). The other 20 man guardian dropped in front of his defiler - plus 20 dire avengers also targeted it. I casted jinx of the defiler so those infantry wiped it out with just guide on the guardians and the hunter went (which had conceal on it) killed a dreadnought.

Basically - I felt like I had all the tools to control the game. it really helped having 2 battalions. The ability to drop 40 guardians on someone on demand is REALLY strong though. Ulthwe do it best I think because they can use black guardians on 1 unit and guide the other. Plus the FNP is amazing.

Quick note for those of you using Fire and Fade to Embark: Don't get used to it.

DCannon4Life wrote:
Quick note for those of you using Fire and Fade to Embark: Don't get used to it.

Why not? You can't disembark and embark on the same turn anyway, so you still have to stay on the table for a whole turn either way, so there's no reason to change the rule. The stratagem just means they get to shoot once more before embarking, which for 1CP is probably about right. Maybe a little cheap, but other Eldar stratagems are too expensive so it balances out.

Solid tactic that makes great use of your Wave Serpent.

All sorts of tricks and fun you can do with embarking and disembarking. Fire and fade just another tool in the very tricky box

Hi everyone, working on the FLyer section and I have to ask... whats wrong with the Phoenix and the Nightwing?

The Phoenix gives you a Heavy 2, S9 AP-3 D3 pulse laser, and a choice of two pretty good missile arrays (nightfire being particularly good for Alaitoc, or anyone really). For 164 points. Which is like 40+ points cheaper than the Hemlock or 20+ less than the Crimson Hunter, and while there are some pros and cons they seem comparable. The Phoenix has a bonus 4 Wounds over either option though.

The Nightwing gets you 2 bright lances and 2 shuriken cannons, and the ability to get +1 to hit if you really want it, and it's even cheaper than the Phoenix. I had it at 140 points I think.

I never seem to hear people talk about them though, as if the Hemlock was straight up better (which maybe it is, because of D-Scythes and Psyker), but I've heard the Crimson Hunter mentioned a few times lately for long-range tank hunting, and I'm not sure why the Phoenix or Nightwing aren't better than the Crimson Hunter at least.

So is my math correct on ulthwe Storm Guardians?

Black Guardian Strategem in Fight phase...
And Enhance adds +1 more.....
Throw in Supreme Disdain for an extra attack for rolling 4 or more.

So 48 attack dice with an Autarch Black Guardians, Enhance and Supreme Disdain would garner about 76 dice rolls.

That is a good 60 hits from a unit that starts with 48 dice!!!

Throw in Doom and even str 3 will net 45 wounds on conscripts or 30 on marines!

The useless Storm Guardians may have some value.

Including the cost of the Autarch and Warlock to cast Enhance, you're looking at minimum 298 points and 2 command points for that. And that's before you factor in your delivery method and any potential losses you'll suffer on your way there.

That's a pretty huge investment to kill 30 conscripts or 10 marines.

Niiru wrote:
Hi everyone, working on the FLyer section and I have to ask... whats wrong with the Phoenix and the Nightwing?

The Phoenix gives you a Heavy 2, S9 AP-3 D3 pulse laser, and a choice of two pretty good missile arrays (nightfire being particularly good for Alaitoc, or anyone really). For 164 points. Which is like 40+ points cheaper than the Hemlock or 20+ less than the Crimson Hunter, and while there are some pros and cons they seem comparable. The Phoenix has a bonus 4 Wounds over either option though.

The Nightwing gets you 2 bright lances and 2 shuriken cannons, and the ability to get +1 to hit if you really want it, and it's even cheaper than the Phoenix. I had it at 140 points I think.

I never seem to hear people talk about them though, as if the Hemlock was straight up better (which maybe it is, because of D-Scythes and Psyker), but I've heard the Crimson Hunter mentioned a few times lately for long-range tank hunting, and I'm not sure why the Phoenix or Nightwing aren't better than the Crimson Hunter at least.

BS2+ on the Hunter seems to make it better for tank hunting. CTMs are just not that good, and are hard to work with on the Phoenix and Nightwing because their two kinds of guns want to be shooting different targets, and you want to be far away from the enemy anyway so your favored target probably won't be closest. The Phoenix is incredibly tanky, yeah, and seems like good competition for a Hunter Exarch with starcannons. The Nightwing just doesn't shoot well enough. Also note that the Phoenix's blind missiles don't really work -- the effect wears off at the end of the turn.

 Fafnir wrote:
Including the cost of the Autarch and Warlock to cast Enhance, you're looking at minimum 298 points and 2 command points for that. And that's before you factor in your delivery method and any potential losses you'll suffer on your way there.

That's a pretty huge investment to kill 30 conscripts or 10 marines.

But if you spend the 1 cp more for the webway and use quicken you can throw a huge target in your enemies force with pile ins. Then use Celestial Shield on his turn to keep a lot from dying. Killing a unit, engaging others in hth and then soaking up fire with the invulnerable saves+Protect is easily worth 300 points in a game. What unit can do that for 300 points that the craftworld has?

I still think the Defender Guardians with protect/celestial shield and platform soaker saves are easier to pull off and cheaper. Just an option....

Still if you face a horde army like nids The Storm Guardians will be a blunt at the very least.

Speaking of Nids...the psychic dampening is going to really hurt elder. It will be crucial to kill Zoans and use long long range to keep those at bay. Concordance of Power in a warlock conclave may actually have some use in that regard....not enjoying the thought of fighting nids.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Played my first game with ulthwe last night against emperors children. I got to go first and just played defensive. I had 2 - 20 man guardian drops that I saved until he got close on the second turn and I had 20 dire avengers in 2 serpants. The rest of my army was 2 fire prisms a crimson hunter - eldrad a farseer and 2 warlocks and 2 D cannons.

Fire prisms - crimson hunter and D cannons managed to kill a rhino and a 10 man noise marine and seriously hurt a maulerfiend. Next turn he moved up - focued the D cannons and killed both and he tried to damage the prisms with range but failed. Start of turn 2 I brought out all my infantry and it was pretty much over at that point.

1 unit of gardians (w 2 bright lance) I used to destroy his other noise marine rhino with 10 more noise marines in it with the help of doom and Black gardians stratagem (he popped smoke). The prisims killed the 10 noise marines inside with their linked fire stratagem and the low power fire mode (did 12 wounds). The other 20 man guardian dropped in front of his defiler - plus 20 dire avengers also targeted it. I casted jinx of the defiler so those infantry wiped it out with just guide on the guardians and the hunter went (which had conceal on it) killed a dreadnought.

Basically - I felt like I had all the tools to control the game. it really helped having 2 battalions. The ability to drop 40 guardians on someone on demand is REALLY strong though. Ulthwe do it best I think because they can use black guardians on 1 unit and guide the other. Plus the FNP is amazing.

Thats exactly how I felt after playing nids with Eldar. I have heard others say that Eldar don't have good 'horde' control units which I just don't see. Dire Avengers in Serpents with Dual Shuriken Cannons are amazing light infantry wipers.

Your D-Cannons really sound like they scared him. Are they worth picking up? I was thinking of getting a support Battery to put near my Warwalkers as a bit more fire support.

 admironheart wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Including the cost of the Autarch and Warlock to cast Enhance, you're looking at minimum 298 points and 2 command points for that. And that's before you factor in your delivery method and any potential losses you'll suffer on your way there.

That's a pretty huge investment to kill 30 conscripts or 10 marines.

But if you spend the 1 cp more for the webway and use quicken you can throw a huge target in your enemies force with pile ins.

Three. You want to keep that Autarch with the squad. Now we're up to 298 points and 5 command points.

Then use Celestial Shield on his turn to keep a lot from dying. Killing a unit, engaging others in hth and then soaking up fire with the invulnerable saves+Protect is easily worth 300 points in a game. What unit can do that for 300 points that the craftworld has?

Now we're up to 6CP and 298 points. That's going to be between 50-100% of your CP at most ranges. Also keep in mind that your opponent likely isn't going to try to kill your Guardians with lascannons. Bolter fire will do just fine in taking them off the table.

For 230 points and 0CP (maybe 35 points for a Warlock to Quicken), I can get a unit of Shadow Spectres to blast a unit to ribbons with their diffuse beam, doing 23 wounds on marines/conscripts/gaunts at -1, and then charge another (assuming non dedicated CC target, obviously). With -1 innate to be hit and a 3+ save, they're far more durable without spending any command points.

Shining Spears are in the same boat, with a 9 man squad costing 281 points and 0CP (once again, throw in a warlock for Quicken if it gets your rocks off) capable of inflicting 12AP0, 4AP-3, and 5AP-4 wounds with shooting against gaunts/conscripts (bit worse against Marines), following up with 11AP-4 wounds in close combat. Moreover, they're T4 with 2 wounds each and a 4++ against shooting attacks innately.

No matter how you cut it, the Storm Guardians just come up as a bad investment.

I still think the Defender Guardians with protect/celestial shield and platform soaker saves are easier to pull off and cheaper. Just an option....and if you face a horde army like nids it will be a blunt at the very least.

At the cost involved, the Nids would happily eat your Guardian deathstar.

Speaking of Nids...the psychic dampening is going to really hurt elder. It will be crucial to kill Zoans and use long long range to keep those at bay. Concordance of Power in a warlock conclave may actually have some use in that regard....not enjoying the thought of fighting nids.

As I've said earlier, the Craftworlds/Nids matchup is looking to be extremely heavily weighted in the Tyranid favour. There's looking to be very little to be done to properly deal with Tyranid threats while also presenting a worthwhile threat on our own.

Dionysodorus wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Hi everyone, working on the FLyer section and I have to ask... whats wrong with the Phoenix and the Nightwing?

The Phoenix gives you a Heavy 2, S9 AP-3 D3 pulse laser, and a choice of two pretty good missile arrays (nightfire being particularly good for Alaitoc, or anyone really). For 164 points. Which is like 40+ points cheaper than the Hemlock or 20+ less than the Crimson Hunter, and while there are some pros and cons they seem comparable. The Phoenix has a bonus 4 Wounds over either option though.

The Nightwing gets you 2 bright lances and 2 shuriken cannons, and the ability to get +1 to hit if you really want it, and it's even cheaper than the Phoenix. I had it at 140 points I think.

I never seem to hear people talk about them though, as if the Hemlock was straight up better (which maybe it is, because of D-Scythes and Psyker), but I've heard the Crimson Hunter mentioned a few times lately for long-range tank hunting, and I'm not sure why the Phoenix or Nightwing aren't better than the Crimson Hunter at least.

BS2+ on the Hunter seems to make it better for tank hunting. CTMs are just not that good, and are hard to work with on the Phoenix and Nightwing because their two kinds of guns want to be shooting different targets, and you want to be far away from the enemy anyway so your favored target probably won't be closest. The Phoenix is incredibly tanky, yeah, and seems like good competition for a Hunter Exarch with starcannons. The Nightwing just doesn't shoot well enough. Also note that the Phoenix's blind missiles don't really work -- the effect wears off at the end of the turn.

Hahaha omg. I didn't notice it says "end of turn". It's clearly meant to mean battle round, or end of opponents turn, as there's no point to that rule otherwise. I'll be sure to add that in, thanks

Niiru wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Hi everyone, working on the FLyer section and I have to ask... whats wrong with the Phoenix and the Nightwing?

The Phoenix gives you a Heavy 2, S9 AP-3 D3 pulse laser, and a choice of two pretty good missile arrays (nightfire being particularly good for Alaitoc, or anyone really). For 164 points. Which is like 40+ points cheaper than the Hemlock or 20+ less than the Crimson Hunter, and while there are some pros and cons they seem comparable. The Phoenix has a bonus 4 Wounds over either option though.

The Nightwing gets you 2 bright lances and 2 shuriken cannons, and the ability to get +1 to hit if you really want it, and it's even cheaper than the Phoenix. I had it at 140 points I think.

I never seem to hear people talk about them though, as if the Hemlock was straight up better (which maybe it is, because of D-Scythes and Psyker), but I've heard the Crimson Hunter mentioned a few times lately for long-range tank hunting, and I'm not sure why the Phoenix or Nightwing aren't better than the Crimson Hunter at least.

BS2+ on the Hunter seems to make it better for tank hunting. CTMs are just not that good, and are hard to work with on the Phoenix and Nightwing because their two kinds of guns want to be shooting different targets, and you want to be far away from the enemy anyway so your favored target probably won't be closest. The Phoenix is incredibly tanky, yeah, and seems like good competition for a Hunter Exarch with starcannons. The Nightwing just doesn't shoot well enough. Also note that the Phoenix's blind missiles don't really work -- the effect wears off at the end of the turn.

Hahaha omg. I didn't notice it says "end of turn". It's clearly meant to mean battle round, or end of opponents turn, as there's no point to that rule otherwise. I'll be sure to add that in, thanks

The Swooping Hawk Sunrifle in the index is the same way. Removed totally in the Codex though.

 Fafnir wrote:

 admironheart wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Including the cost of the Autarch and Warlock to cast Enhance, you're looking at minimum 298 points and 2 command points for that. And that's before you factor in your delivery method and any potential losses you'll suffer on your way there.

That's a pretty huge investment to kill 30 conscripts or 10 marines.

But if you spend the 1 cp more for the webway and use quicken you can throw a huge target in your enemies force with pile ins.

Three. You want to keep that Autarch with the squad. Now we're up to 298 points and 5 command points.

Then use Celestial Shield on his turn to keep a lot from dying. Killing a unit, engaging others in hth and then soaking up fire with the invulnerable saves+Protect is easily worth 300 points in a game. What unit can do that for 300 points that the craftworld has?

Now we're up to 6CP and 298 points. That's going to be between 50-100% of your CP at most ranges. Also keep in mind that your opponent likely isn't going to try to kill your Guardians with lascannons. Bolter fire will do just fine in taking them off the table.

Do I correctly understand the logic of your argument, Fafnir, that says temporarily combining some parts of your force in support of each other creates a kind of mega-unit that can only competitively be sent up against units of equal or greater points value?

In my codex, a unit of 20 storm guardians is 140 points. It’s not like using other units to buff them expends points that can’t later be used for something else. Concentrating superior forces temporarily against a weaker part of the opponent’s force is what some tacticians call “localized superiority.”

Nothing personal, but I feel like the whole “you can’t use S points to kill a unit of Y” argument tends to discourage discussions like the one admironheart is trying to have about how to combine units in order to maginfy their effects.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 admironheart wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Including the cost of the Autarch and Warlock to cast Enhance, you're looking at minimum 298 points and 2 command points for that. And that's before you factor in your delivery method and any potential losses you'll suffer on your way there.

That's a pretty huge investment to kill 30 conscripts or 10 marines.

But if you spend the 1 cp more for the webway and use quicken you can throw a huge target in your enemies force with pile ins.

Three. You want to keep that Autarch with the squad. Now we're up to 298 points and 5 command points.

Then use Celestial Shield on his turn to keep a lot from dying. Killing a unit, engaging others in hth and then soaking up fire with the invulnerable saves+Protect is easily worth 300 points in a game. What unit can do that for 300 points that the craftworld has?

Now we're up to 6CP and 298 points. That's going to be between 50-100% of your CP at most ranges. Also keep in mind that your opponent likely isn't going to try to kill your Guardians with lascannons. Bolter fire will do just fine in taking them off the table.

Do I correctly understand the logic of your argument, Fafnir, that says temporarily combining some parts of your force in support of each other creates a kind of mega-unit that can only competitively be sent up against units of equal or greater points value?

In my codex, a unit of 20 storm guardians is 140 points. It’s not like using other units to buff them expends points that can’t later be used for something else. Concentrating superior forces temporarily against a weaker part of the opponent’s force is what some tacticians call “localized superiority.”

Nothing personal, but I feel like the whole “you can’t use S points to kill a unit of Y” argument tends to discourage discussions like the one admironheart is trying to have about how to combine units in order to maginfy their effects.

What he's saying is other thing do the job better.

For instance as he says the spears have the storm guardians number. In most situations wiht no investments the spears are way more consistant than the guardians. Then from thier with buffs the spears ramp in power more dramaticly. give them +1 to hit, quicken for that turn 1 charge, Supreme distain, and you ahve a monster mashing units.

Honestly myself i've been eying storm guardians from ulthwe way really hard, and they do definitely seem great, but you just don't get enough out of it to feel good about yourself at the end of the day. Getting them into the fight alone is hard. They can't thier alone at all. So if something comes up like an army dropping a culexus in your face reducing your psychic or going against anti psyker nids you kind of compound this weakness. While, in the same situation with spears or something they aren't too upset as they are fast and hard hitting enough to deal with things un aided.

The real difference is i can drop the warlock support team into my army with farseer support and a full squad of shining spears, and i won't feel bad at all about it. The spears can work all on thier own should the warlocks and co need to support something else or if they get taken out.

However the storm guardian module you speak of falls appart really hard if your support is gone. SO much so that they become pretty much useless very quickly. You gotta think your basicly paying twice the price for a guardsman with +WS/BS, a worse gun, and +2 movement. It just doesn't work out well, and when you do pull off the magic you don't get a lot out of it. Where pulling of the magic with spears you can pretty much win the game off that move.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 admironheart wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Including the cost of the Autarch and Warlock to cast Enhance, you're looking at minimum 298 points and 2 command points for that. And that's before you factor in your delivery method and any potential losses you'll suffer on your way there.

That's a pretty huge investment to kill 30 conscripts or 10 marines.

But if you spend the 1 cp more for the webway and use quicken you can throw a huge target in your enemies force with pile ins.

Three. You want to keep that Autarch with the squad. Now we're up to 298 points and 5 command points.

Then use Celestial Shield on his turn to keep a lot from dying. Killing a unit, engaging others in hth and then soaking up fire with the invulnerable saves+Protect is easily worth 300 points in a game. What unit can do that for 300 points that the craftworld has?

Now we're up to 6CP and 298 points. That's going to be between 50-100% of your CP at most ranges. Also keep in mind that your opponent likely isn't going to try to kill your Guardians with lascannons. Bolter fire will do just fine in taking them off the table.

Do I correctly understand the logic of your argument, Fafnir, that says temporarily combining some parts of your force in support of each other creates a kind of mega-unit that can only competitively be sent up against units of equal or greater points value?

In my codex, a unit of 20 storm guardians is 140 points. It’s not like using other units to buff them expends points that can’t later be used for something else. Concentrating superior forces temporarily against a weaker part of the opponent’s force is what some tacticians call “localized superiority.”

Nothing personal, but I feel like the whole “you can’t use S points to kill a unit of Y” argument tends to discourage discussions like the one admironheart is trying to have about how to combine units in order to maginfy their effects.

He has a point. That Autarch and Warlock aren't going to be suddenly useless after you've attacked with those storm guardians. The Guardians might not do their big attack until turn 2 (for example), but in turn 1 your warlock could buff/debuff a seperate unit entirely. Especially if it's on a jetbike. And after the guardians have done their big attack and have become an expendable tarpit unit, the warlock can go off and help buff your other units that are now getting into other fights.

It involves timing maybe, and strategic placement of units, but then thats kinda the point of the game (and this thread).

Not saying it's a good idea, as I haven't examined it that closely or tested it in a game, but everything is worthy of trying.

Niiru wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 admironheart wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Including the cost of the Autarch and Warlock to cast Enhance, you're looking at minimum 298 points and 2 command points for that. And that's before you factor in your delivery method and any potential losses you'll suffer on your way there.

That's a pretty huge investment to kill 30 conscripts or 10 marines.

But if you spend the 1 cp more for the webway and use quicken you can throw a huge target in your enemies force with pile ins.

Three. You want to keep that Autarch with the squad. Now we're up to 298 points and 5 command points.

Then use Celestial Shield on his turn to keep a lot from dying. Killing a unit, engaging others in hth and then soaking up fire with the invulnerable saves+Protect is easily worth 300 points in a game. What unit can do that for 300 points that the craftworld has?

Now we're up to 6CP and 298 points. That's going to be between 50-100% of your CP at most ranges. Also keep in mind that your opponent likely isn't going to try to kill your Guardians with lascannons. Bolter fire will do just fine in taking them off the table.

Do I correctly understand the logic of your argument, Fafnir, that says temporarily combining some parts of your force in support of each other creates a kind of mega-unit that can only competitively be sent up against units of equal or greater points value?

In my codex, a unit of 20 storm guardians is 140 points. It’s not like using other units to buff them expends points that can’t later be used for something else. Concentrating superior forces temporarily against a weaker part of the opponent’s force is what some tacticians call “localized superiority.”

Nothing personal, but I feel like the whole “you can’t use S points to kill a unit of Y” argument tends to discourage discussions like the one admironheart is trying to have about how to combine units in order to maginfy their effects.

He has a point. That Autarch and Warlock aren't going to be suddenly useless after you've attacked with those storm guardians. The Guardians might not do their big attack until turn 2 (for example), but in turn 1 your warlock could buff/debuff a seperate unit entirely. Especially if it's on a jetbike. And after the guardians have done their big attack and have become an expendable tarpit unit, the warlock can go off and help buff your other units that are now getting into other fights.

It involves timing maybe, and strategic placement of units, but then thats kinda the point of the game (and this thread).

Not saying it's a good idea, as I haven't examined it that closely or tested it in a game, but everything is worthy of trying.

Right, I think the storm guardian idea is kind of a stretch, has a lot of moving parts and a lot that can go wrong.

I’m just questioning the logic of saying that a 140-point unit of guardians supported by other parts of the army costs 300 points. That’s like saying a 5-man tac squad with a lascannon, using Guilliman’s rerolls, is spending 450 points for a single lascannon shot.

Eldar work well by combining different abilities and buffs to gain a temporary, localized advantage. I would like to be able to discuss these possible combinaitons (even the ones that don’t work).

SO striking scorps. Can we talk them now???

They are amazing and bad all at the same time.

They do actualy fairly good damage to GEQ and MEQ targets when compared to all the units we have.

However, this is also kind of a lie. Melee units always do good damage when they make it, but the real thought is can they make it??

They self deliver with the access to deep strike native, but that's still a 9" charge so we gotta off set that.

With biel-tan we can get thier charge to 7" and this works great as you're still cahrging out side of flamer range and that's a 58% chance to make it. That said they need to be in biel-tan & spend 2 CP. ALso only one unit can benefit from this at a time. Odds are you aren't taking the avatar as he's not worth it so you won't really be getting that down to a 6" charge.

Next we have saim-hann (forgive me i'm a saim-hann fan boy ). That re-roll charge can be pretty nice bringing your charge chance down to 47.8% cc chance, and this can be used for every scorpion unit in your list. So 3 squads your bound to make it in with one or two. Also the application of 1 CP reroll stratagem bumps that charge chance to just above 50% if you use it while you have a 5 or 6 showing.

Damage wise they are pretty good. Coming up along side some of out best against MEQ and GEQ units, and if said unit is in cover the scoprions will out damage most things we have in the first turn damage catagory. Again though this is off set by your chance to make melee. One thing to think about is do you get the +1 if your opponent only has a toe in cover with one model, or does the whole unit need to be getting the benefits from cover. hmmmm...

Buff wise they love buffs. Warlock +1 to hit make them happy panda's as the exarch loves getting more attacks. The supreme distain stratagem works well on them. If your opponent is in cover that's more explosions and also on 5+.

Other than that they don't really swing well against other units due to lacking abit in AP, against something like terminators your really only getting the exarch attacks almost.

I don't see having an issue with tyrnaids at the moment.

Take Beil-tan.

Base dire avengers with an exarch with dual shuriken rifles inside wave serpents with shuriken cannons make direct swarm control squads with high mobility. And everything rerolls 1's.

Shining spears and warlock on jet bikes, not that I think we need Quicken but taking it along in case doesn't hurt anything. These guys can be mid level elite unit death dealers, use them to deal with things that need to die but like to hide or have a weakness like warriors, biovors, or any thing with a toughness of 6 or less.

2 squads of warwalkers, 3 Walkers each, with dual bright lances or dual missile launchers (I prefer missile launchers myself). Take farseer with the leader warlord trait and guide. That's free rerolls on both units. If you don't get guide Off that's still free rerolls on one of the squads.

After that spend whatever points you have left on what you want. Wraithlords, avatar of Kaine, maybe an autarch for more Support? There are a lot of options.

That storm guardian supreme disdain tactic is so cool!

As others have said, adding the cost of the support psykers when determining the efficiency of the tactic is wrong. The cost is 168pts and a couple of CPs.

However the real problem is that you need to get Quicken off on them which makes it unreliable (the odds of castling quicken with a reroll + the odds of making the 9" charge if you don't aren't too bad though). Guardian Defenders can be relied upon to get into shooting range even if all your support powers fail.

The potential of having 24 Storm Guardians come out of the webway and charging with Quicken, Enhance, Empower, Doom, Jinx, Discipline of the BG and Supreme disdain to slaughter 20+ Khorne Berzerkers is hilarious though.

Supreme Disdain looks like a stratagem made for Scorpions, since someone mentioned them. It can potentially triple Exarches attacks while others roll 5s if target unit in cover (whatever "in cover" means).

mmimzie wrote:
SO striking scorps. Can we talk them now???

They are amazing and bad all at the same time.

They do actualy fairly good damage to GEQ and MEQ targets when compared to all the units we have.

However, this is also kind of a lie. Melee units always do good damage when they make it, but the real thought is can they make it??

They self deliver with the access to deep strike native, but that's still a 9" charge so we gotta off set that.

With biel-tan we can get thier charge to 7" and this works great as you're still cahrging out side of flamer range and that's a 58% chance to make it. That said they need to be in biel-tan & spend 2 CP. ALso only one unit can benefit from this at a time. Odds are you aren't taking the avatar as he's not worth it so you won't really be getting that down to a 6" charge.

Next we have saim-hann (forgive me i'm a saim-hann fan boy ). That re-roll charge can be pretty nice bringing your charge chance down to 47.8% cc chance, and this can be used for every scorpion unit in your list. So 3 squads your bound to make it in with one or two. Also the application of 1 CP reroll stratagem bumps that charge chance to just above 50% if you use it while you have a 5 or 6 showing.

Damage wise they are pretty good. Coming up along side some of out best against MEQ and GEQ units, and if said unit is in cover the scoprions will out damage most things we have in the first turn damage catagory. Again though this is off set by your chance to make melee. One thing to think about is do you get the +1 if your opponent only has a toe in cover with one model, or does the whole unit need to be getting the benefits from cover. hmmmm...

Buff wise they love buffs. Warlock +1 to hit make them happy panda's as the exarch loves getting more attacks. The supreme distain stratagem works well on them. If your opponent is in cover that's more explosions and also on 5+.

Other than that they don't really swing well against other units due to lacking abit in AP, against something like terminators your really only getting the exarch attacks almost.

I think it is more important to deep strike them into cover as opposed to a close to your target as possible. In cover these guys get 2+ save. You can then plan for a more reliable next turn charge. This is situational of course dependening on cover availability but it is an alternative to going for the first turn charge.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:


Do I correctly understand the logic of your argument, Fafnir, that says temporarily combining some parts of your force in support of each other creates a kind of mega-unit that can only competitively be sent up against units of equal or greater points value?

In my codex, a unit of 20 storm guardians is 140 points. It’s not like using other units to buff them expends points that can’t later be used for something else. Concentrating superior forces temporarily against a weaker part of the opponent’s force is what some tacticians call “localized superiority.”

Nothing personal, but I feel like the whole “you can’t use S points to kill a unit of Y” argument tends to discourage discussions like the one admironheart is trying to have about how to combine units in order to maginfy their effects.

Oh I am not saying that he is wrong...but his argument is like you said completely mischaracterized. He did not include the 24 Shuriken Pistol Shots, the Autarch or psyker shooting not to mention the weapons they could bring into hth. Take their survivability into it and boom you probably have an equal or better survival rate than his counter argument.

I think it is very difficult to pull off the Storm Guardian maneuver with Deny the Witch and even with a reroll you will miss your test a lot on quicken ...then you can be left high and dry. The Defender Guardians with a 2+/3++ save with 6+ FNP is way easier and can still get in hth to lock up a unit.

We now have the Banshees, Jain Zar, Autarch with Warp Jump+Banshee Mask, the Warlord trait as option to prevent overwatch on the Storm/Defender guardians.
If the support is hard to get remember we have a 36" range Conclave stratagem that is a cost of 60 points for 2 warlocks that can use Conceal the rest of the time. (this tactic will be very important when facing nids and to prevent DtW rolls in general)

I faced Necrons a bit ago in an off the cuff game and messed up my webway positioning and implementation. After turn 1 it looked over for me. Scorpions dead, 20 Defenders dead in a 1000 point game. Then Doom and Protect and Jinx and Smite came into play. He was tabled by turn 6. I still had remenants of all my other units left except for a warlock. Pychics can turn things around in a big way. His Shadow Spectres group better have some back up in the enemies backfield.

From the battle reports Ive read it seems those hard hitting Spectres and Spears get targeted and often wiped after the enemy spends his whole counter turn taking them down. That is supposed to be your best unit....your main punch per se. The storm guardians are nothing more than a distraction so that the WS and fire dragons, banshees, etc can bog down his line so that your meaty gun line stays unmolested and does it job to finish off the opponent.

Although I think there will always be better ways to run your warlord, I REALLY want to combo Supreme Disdain with the Ambush of Blades trait and some +1 to hit modifiers. Scorpions would be cool with that.

So, looking for a bit of input in regards to part of the list I’m building with the intention of it being competitive.

Section in question is the Saim-Hann Outrider detachment. Currently it is –

Autarch Skyrunner with Saim-Hann lance relic (likely warlord with no overwatch trait)
8 Shining Spears with Exarch and Star Lance
1 Vyper with Starcannon and Shuriken Cannon
1 Vyper with Starcannon and Shuriken Cannon
1 Hemlock Wraithfighter

Personally, I can’t decide on the Vypers. The Starcannons make sense due to them ignoring the -1 to hit, but at 75 points a pop I’m not sure they are worth it or whether I should drop 1 for some Hawks. The full list is currently 2000 points so only have 718 points to play with (potentially 722). I’d like to keep it as Saim-Hann, as the Spears will prob come in via the webway so will be relying on the stratagem for re-roll hits of 1 and the re-roll charge (if I don’t get Quicken off on them).

The full list is –
Alaitoc Battalion
Spiritseer x2
5 Rangers x2
5 Dire Avengers
6 Shadow Spectres with Exarch (cos I had 4 spare points)
Hemlock
Crimson Hunter Exarch with Starcannons

Ulthwe Supreme Command
Eldrad
Farseer Skyrunner (witchblade)
Warlock Skyrunner (witchblade) x3

Also tempted to swap the Alaitoc Hemlock to another CHE, but again, not 100%.

Choices. Choices….

The Storm Guardian thing sounds a lot like what Chaos can do with Cultists. They have characters that give hit and wound re-rolls in CC, and DttFE and Prescience give them lots of extra attacks against Imperium units. It's effective. Granted, Cultists are half the price of Guardians and Doom isn't that great unless you're throwing all of them at one big unit. I agree that you're probably better off using Defenders, and possibly even charging with them to tie stuff up, while buffing something else.