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You're missing Karandras for Death from a Thousand Stings.

Honestly, the bigger question is does Supreme Disdain with Karandras make Scorpions worth it alone? Enhance, Quicken, and cover all turn up the combo to the next level but if you need all of these than it's likely too much investment. Although getting a spiritseer or warlock for enhance shouldn't be too much of a lift.

mmimzie wrote:
Then everything behind the screens will light up the exposed soft meats of your scorpions and banshees 6 serpents just break 11 conscript kills a turn.

How will the opponent chew up scorpions and banshees that are within 1” of units that they have trapped?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Except for armies that fly like Tau suit spam or Mech DE)

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

mmimzie wrote:
Then everything behind the screens will light up the exposed soft meats of your scorpions and banshees 6 serpents just break 11 conscript kills a turn.

How will the opponent chew up scorpions and banshees that are within 1” of units that they have trapped?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Except for armies that fly like Tau suit spam or Mech DE)

As an avid GSC player trapping chaffe is near impossible. It's either they trap you, and no visa verse if you're a good player. You can pile into the chaffe, but they back up and then just shoot you in the face or the things behind the chaffe shoots you in the face.

Most armies actualy don't care about you locking them in combat. Guard have order that let them keep shooting, or enough chaffe to just leave combat with the chaffe and shoot you any way.

https://spikeybits.com/2017/10/top-5-army-lists-in-8th-edition-40k-from-socal-open.html

So looking at those list. I don't see the banshee/scorp serpent spam working against any of those save for maybe the grey knight/AM list where they lack chaffe, but even then i think the grey knight nemsis dreads might just win that melee fight any way.

The other forces ahve enough chaffe or alt deployments where getting locked into combat isn't that big a problem.

The first list has 3 squads of scripts that you just aren't gonna move. Getting them stuck in combat isn't realyl gonna work well because you chose which models in your units die. From thier the gatling cannons and scions are gonna hot drop and rock the melee force.

the second list Has berserks that can win the melee fight, and a decent enough amount of cultist that they could win in the fight or at as a screen to allow the obliterators to live up to thier name sake.

THe third list as i said is a toss up, but if he uses his 60 infantry men to block off your charge you won't get through that fast enough to stop the hurts, and everyone that got out will get rocked. Though i'm not familiar enough with the grey knight stuff to give you a good opinion i'll admit.

The fourth list ifeel good about how this scorp banshee list would do. I think it might be a little bit of a toss up depending on how the soul burst go, but i think the banshee/scorps would have a pretty nice shot.

The 5th list thier is just no chance for the banshee/scorp list too many brims and no way to deal with them, and good damage out put from magnus and the khorne boys to take the game of the chaos players pace.

I think with the addition of the guadian drop this changes a bit though. With a storm guardian drop or two you could clear away a lot f that chaffe in no time.

Just to clarify the Storm Guardian Drop.

take 24 max
Don't take special weapons
Do take Chainswords for all 24 models.
That is 8pts per guardian so 192 point unit
Enhance+ Black Guardian + Quicken are critical
Shiftshroud is a way to get 1 warlock in range.
Skyrunner is another way.
a 2 warlock conclave is another at 36" range w/stratagem
An autarch helps
A Farseer with Doom and Will of Asurman or Fortune will be needed.
A very lot can go wrong so prep for that.

 admironheart wrote:
Just to clarify the Storm Guardian Drop.

take 24 max
Don't take special weapons
Do take Chainswords for all 24 models.
That is 8pts per guardian so 192 point unit
Enhance+ Black Guardian + Quicken are critical
Shiftshroud is a way to get 1 warlock in range.
Skyrunner is another way.
a 2 warlock conclave is another at 36" range w/stratagem
An autarch helps
A Farseer with Doom and Will of Asurman or Fortune will be needed.
A very lot can go wrong so prep for that.

actually misspoke and said storm guardians. <.< i always think about them because they are cooler, but i prefer the defender drop. Doesn't need support, and if you take them in craftworld biel-tan you can get a free damage boost. The defenders also target chaffe so they make a great module for undoing chaffe heavy armies. They also don't need warlock or far seers to really get thier job done. Makes them very plug and playable into almost any list idea.

Going against an opponent with no chaffe?? having a bright lance in your guardian squad keep them relavent, and allows you just to deploy them back field and take a few pop shots.

 admironheart wrote:
Just to clarify the Storm Guardian Drop.

take 24 max
Don't take special weapons
Do take Chainswords for all 24 models.
That is 8pts per guardian so 192 point unit
Enhance+ Black Guardian + Quicken are critical
Shiftshroud is a way to get 1 warlock in range.
Skyrunner is another way.
a 2 warlock conclave is another at 36" range w/stratagem
An autarch helps
A Farseer with Doom and Will of Asurman or Fortune will be needed.
A very lot can go wrong so prep for that.

Storm guardians in codex with chain swords cost only 7. Chain sword cost zero in the codex and guardians are 7

Thanks for sharing the lists. I’ll have to try out some variations. So far, using all my 6 serpents and all banshee + scorpion models, i still have about 800 points left in 2 battalions. So there are some options. Storm guardians are looking good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I personally haven’t found it difficult to trap units in melee to protect my guys from shooting, especially where there are vehicles around. But I have been playing jump pack heavy marines, and flying makes it easier to grab a model or two during consolidation.

Obviously where your opponent flies or if you happen to draw the Valhallan conscript army, then plan B.

 clodax66 wrote:


Storm guardians in codex with chain swords cost only 7. Chain sword cost zero in the codex and guardians are 7

Awesome...I never even checked that out....Thanks!!

The talk of Wave Serpent heavy lists got my brain going and I threw this list together - mostly because I am in the buying stage and want to make sure I have lots of solid options.

Biel-Tan Battalion 3CP

HQ:
Asurmen
[175]

Troops:
(10) Dire Avengers
Double Shurikens
[124]

(10) Guardians
Shuriken Cannon
[95]

(10) Guardians
Shuriken Cannon
[95]

Dedicated:
Wave Serpent
Twin Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon
Spirit Stones
[144]

Wave Serpent
Twin Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon
Spirit Stones
[144]

Wave Serpent
Twin Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon
Spirit Stones
[144]

[956]

Ulthwe Supreme Command 1CP

Eldrad
Guide/Fortune/Doom
Fate Reader
[150]

Warlock
Quicken/Restrain
[35]

Warlock
Protect/Jinx
[35]

Elites:
(5) Wraithguard
D-Scythes
[225]

Dedicated:
Wave Serpent
Twin Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon
[134]

[579]

Alaitoc Spearhead 1CP

HQ:
Spiritseer
Conceal/Reveal, Shiftshroud
[45]

Heavy:
Fire Prism
Prism Cannon, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones
[175]

Fire Prism
Prism Cannon, Twin Catapults, Spirit Stones
[170]

Support Weapon
D-Cannon
[75]

[465]

[2000]

8 CP

Go hard for the enemy lines with shooty units, some D-Scythe WG, and a tanky Phoenix Lord. The rest all supports that mission.

Ok, quick question that I've noticed... what weapons can a Vyper take?

The wargear section says it can replace it's shuriken cannon with a heavy weapon. Fine, easy, done.

Also says you can exchange the shuriken catapults for a shuriken cannon. Ok, done.

So now I have a shuriken cannon and a heavy weapon... so why can't I then swap that shuriken cannon for a heavy weapon?

There doesn't seem to be any wording saying I can't, and other units in the game allow you to do stuff like this (especially in imperial codices).
Just wanted to see if there was a ruling, as it makes a difference for my write up.

Niiru wrote:
Ok, quick question that I've noticed... what weapons can a Vyper take?

The wargear section says it can replace it's shuriken cannon with a heavy weapon. Fine, easy, done.

Also says you can exchange the shuriken catapults for a shuriken cannon. Ok, done.

So now I have a shuriken cannon and a heavy weapon... so why can't I then swap that shuriken cannon for a heavy weapon?

There doesn't seem to be any wording saying I can't, and other units in the game allow you to do stuff like this (especially in imperial codices).
Just wanted to see if there was a ruling, as it makes a difference for my write up.

I think the assumption is that once you swap your Twin Shuricat to a Shuricannon, that's it for swapping it as it says you may swap its "Cannon", not "Cannons"
I'm interested to see what everyone else says though.

Also keep in mind that this would also affect the Falcon which also comes default with Cats and a Cannon and can swap that Cats for a Cannon and its Cannon for a Heavy weapon.
It would be really cool to have a double Star Cannon Vyper or a double Lance / Pulse laser Falcon.

-

I doubt the intent was to allow it to do two heavy weapons.

Niiru wrote:
Ok, quick question that I've noticed... what weapons can a Vyper take?

The wargear section says it can replace it's shuriken cannon with a heavy weapon. Fine, easy, done.

Also says you can exchange the shuriken catapults for a shuriken cannon. Ok, done.

So now I have a shuriken cannon and a heavy weapon... so why can't I then swap that shuriken cannon for a heavy weapon?

There doesn't seem to be any wording saying I can't, and other units in the game allow you to do stuff like this (especially in imperial codices).
Just wanted to see if there was a ruling, as it makes a difference for my write up.

This has come up multiple times with different armies and setups like this. The general consensus is you cant swap a weapon twice, you can make the catapults a cannon or make the other cannon into a dif heavy weapon, but not catapults to cannon to heavy weapon. I know there are rulings that back this up, I just don't remember where they are at the moment.

mmimzie wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

mmimzie wrote:
Then everything behind the screens will light up the exposed soft meats of your scorpions and banshees 6 serpents just break 11 conscript kills a turn.

How will the opponent chew up scorpions and banshees that are within 1” of units that they have trapped?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Except for armies that fly like Tau suit spam or Mech DE)

As an avid GSC player trapping chaffe is near impossible. It's either they trap you, and no visa verse if you're a good player. You can pile into the chaffe, but they back up and then just shoot you in the face or the things behind the chaffe shoots you in the face.

Most armies actualy don't care about you locking them in combat. Guard have order that let them keep shooting, or enough chaffe to just leave combat with the chaffe and shoot you any way.

https://spikeybits.com/2017/10/top-5-army-lists-in-8th-edition-40k-from-socal-open.html

So looking at those list. I don't see the banshee/scorp serpent spam working against any of those save for maybe the grey knight/AM list where they lack chaffe, but even then i think the grey knight nemsis dreads might just win that melee fight any way.

The other forces ahve enough chaffe or alt deployments where getting locked into combat isn't that big a problem.

The first list has 3 squads of scripts that you just aren't gonna move. Getting them stuck in combat isn't realyl gonna work well because you chose which models in your units die. From thier the gatling cannons and scions are gonna hot drop and rock the melee force.

the second list Has berserks that can win the melee fight, and a decent enough amount of cultist that they could win in the fight or at as a screen to allow the obliterators to live up to thier name sake.

THe third list as i said is a toss up, but if he uses his 60 infantry men to block off your charge you won't get through that fast enough to stop the hurts, and everyone that got out will get rocked. Though i'm not familiar enough with the grey knight stuff to give you a good opinion i'll admit.

The fourth list ifeel good about how this scorp banshee list would do. I think it might be a little bit of a toss up depending on how the soul burst go, but i think the banshee/scorps would have a pretty nice shot.

The 5th list thier is just no chance for the banshee/scorp list too many brims and no way to deal with them, and good damage out put from magnus and the khorne boys to take the game of the chaos players pace.

I think with the addition of the guadian drop this changes a bit though. With a storm guardian drop or two you could clear away a lot f that chaffe in no time.

It's very easy - with your colsolidate move - you surround 1 modle - thats all you need to do.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's very easy - with your colsolidate move - you surround 1 modle - thats all you need to do.

I don't think this is easy at all with units that you actually charged. You only consolidate 3". You basically need Fly to have any chance of doing this to something that you didn't already have partially-surrounded -- moving a 1" model all the way around another 1" model already requires a >3" move (your model's center is moving pi inches). But since you have to set this up with your charge and pile in, your opponent will likely be able to remove casualties so as to make it impossible for you to complete the trap with your consolidation. It can be a lot easier if you originally pile into a unit that you didn't charge, though that requires there be a handy unit close by.

Now, with vehicles it's a lot easier. Here casualty removal isn't a problem, because it's a one-model unit.

SM Infantry sometimes can double swap, sometimes can't, depending on finer print in the wording. The RAI seems to support this.

Vypers and similar in the CWE dex have had this question come up every edition. I've still never seen a Vyper modelled with both swapped. Much less played on the table.

The RAW is arguable. The RAI is obvious.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's very easy - with your colsolidate move - you surround 1 modle - thats all you need to do.

Assuming battle shock doesn't exist. Sure... and with AM I can chose to use LD 9 or 4 and use which everyone gives me the best advantage. You can consolidate after I pull models via battle shock.

But look your free to try, and the come back and tell me how that goes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's very easy - with your colsolidate move - you surround 1 modle - thats all you need to do.

I don't think this is easy at all with units that you actually charged. You only consolidate 3". You basically need Fly to have any chance of doing this to something that you didn't already have partially-surrounded -- moving a 1" model all the way around another 1" model already requires a >3" move (your model's center is moving pi inches). But since you have to set this up with your charge and pile in, your opponent will likely be able to remove casualties so as to make it impossible for you to complete the trap with your consolidation. It can be a lot easier if you originally pile into a unit that you didn't charge, though that requires there be a handy unit close by.

Now, with vehicles it's a lot easier. Here casualty removal isn't a problem, because it's a one-model unit.

I agree with this completely.

Another thing I think is important is the order in which the options are given.
Swapping the Shuicannon for a Heavy weapon is listed first, meaning that if you wish to swap, it happens at a point at which the Vyper only has 1 Shuricannon.
THEN you may swap the Twin cats for another Shuricannon

But that is more of a RAI argument, which seems redundant as we all kinda agree on the RAI

-

That's cool guys, if everyone is playing the rule as Vypers can only have one heavy weapon, then that is what I will put in the Tactica.

And on that note, the basic summaries for the Tactica are done! Well, except for LoW/Superheavies, but I figured all the other slots were more important to get written up first.

So if anyone wants to read through and start on some feedback/changes/corrections, it's all ready to go. Otherwise, I will now start on adding in the most-used loadouts and any tactics that people come up with

mmimzie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's very easy - with your colsolidate move - you surround 1 modle - thats all you need to do.

Assuming battle shock doesn't exist. Sure... and with AM I can chose to use LD 9 or 4 and use which everyone gives me the best advantage. You can consolidate after I pull models via battle shock.

But look your free to try, and the come back and tell me how that goes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's very easy - with your colsolidate move - you surround 1 modle - thats all you need to do.

I don't think this is easy at all with units that you actually charged. You only consolidate 3". You basically need Fly to have any chance of doing this to something that you didn't already have partially-surrounded -- moving a 1" model all the way around another 1" model already requires a >3" move (your model's center is moving pi inches). But since you have to set this up with your charge and pile in, your opponent will likely be able to remove casualties so as to make it impossible for you to complete the trap with your consolidation. It can be a lot easier if you originally pile into a unit that you didn't charge, though that requires there be a handy unit close by.

Now, with vehicles it's a lot easier. Here casualty removal isn't a problem, because it's a one-model unit.

I agree with this completely.

It's a lot easier with bonus to your pile in move. Like siamhan get with their warlord trait. Probably the only craftworld that should take aspect close combat warriors anyways. Also with banshees - which have insane movement - you were probably surrounded at the start of the assault. It's only going to get worse as you lose models. I use to think falling back was automatic and free but it's actually pretty easy to trap a unit if you know what you are doing.

Niiru wrote:
That's cool guys, if everyone is playing the rule as Vypers can only have one heavy weapon, then that is what I will put in the Tactica.

And on that note, the basic summaries for the Tactica are done! Well, except for LoW/Superheavies, but I figured all the other slots were more important to get written up first.

So if anyone wants to read through and start on some feedback/changes/corrections, it's all ready to go. Otherwise, I will now start on adding in the most-used loadouts and any tactics that people come up with

Having looked at it thier is abit of a disconnect.

I can tell some pages were written that are more neutral. While others where more fishing for what's better or worse.

For instance functionally dire avengers and swoopnhawks habe the same damage out put/pts against about every target when you factor in thier grenade which has a very generous range of effect. The difference between the two being: do you want speed, mobility, and alternate deployment or do you want obsec and a troop choice.

This is a real distinction as swoop hawks will almost always have range for thier attacks against the target you want. Except for the grenades which might be alittle bit harder to land where you want. Where as dire avengers give you obsec and more cp, but do you need more to or is obsec worth it when its on such a comparatively slow unit.

From thier. I do agree wind riders are bad, but one small boon I would be that make the best forwarding targets when armed woth scatter lasers or sgurxan cannons. Giving them great range and a lot of shot if you take a unit of 9. In these same roles they also gain a lot from guide, and if they constantly have access to guide giving you more mileage than many other units can or would normally get.


Anywho keep up the good work.

mmimzie wrote:

Niiru wrote:
That's cool guys, if everyone is playing the rule as Vypers can only have one heavy weapon, then that is what I will put in the Tactica.

And on that note, the basic summaries for the Tactica are done! Well, except for LoW/Superheavies, but I figured all the other slots were more important to get written up first.

So if anyone wants to read through and start on some feedback/changes/corrections, it's all ready to go. Otherwise, I will now start on adding in the most-used loadouts and any tactics that people come up with

Having looked at it thier is abit of a disconnect.

I can tell some pages were written that are more neutral. While others where more fishing for what's better or worse.

For instance functionally dire avengers and swoopnhawks habe the same damage out put/pts against about every target when you factor in thier grenade which has a very generous range of effect. The difference between the two being: do you want speed, mobility, and alternate deployment or do you want obsec and a troop choice.

This is a real distinction as swoop hawks will almost always have range for thier attacks against the target you want. Except for the grenades which might be alittle bit harder to land where you want. Where as dire avengers give you obsec and more cp, but do you need more to or is obsec worth it when its on such a comparatively slow unit.

From thier. I do agree wind riders are bad, but one small boon I would be that make the best forwarding targets when armed woth scatter lasers or sgurxan cannons. Giving them great range and a lot of shot if you take a unit of 9. In these same roles they also gain a lot from guide, and if they constantly have access to guide giving you more mileage than many other units can or would normally get.


Anywho keep up the good work.

It's the hazard of having to write up 40 different summaries for units in a vacuum, when there's no damage/pts/durability standards out there. I didn't realise that Avengers and Hawks had the same damage/pts output as each other. It's why I asked a few days ago if people would want a standard damage/durability per points stat for each unit, but it didnt seem to get much of a backing so I haven't looked into doing anything about it yet.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll alter those summaries a little so they're a bit more even handed. All the summaries are basically drafted off the top of my head or using other peoples opinions from forums, so there's going to need to be some updates (especially as there is now the codex).

mmimzie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's very easy - with your colsolidate move - you surround 1 modle - thats all you need to do.

Assuming battle shock doesn't exist. Sure... and with AM I can chose to use LD 9 or 4 and use which everyone gives me the best advantage. You can consolidate after I pull models via battle shock.

But look your free to try, and the come back and tell me how that goes.

Goes pretty well in my experience. Actual assaults are pretty messy, not a clean one-to-one unit fight, but (if you set it up right) fights that pull in vechicles, monsters, and characters who are nearby in a crowded parking lot. Anybody who hasn’t anticipated models being pulled by battle shock isn’t playing the game very well. You have to grab multiple models, or characters who don’t die from battleshock.

And you don’t have to go *all* the way around with your move—just enough to make three points of contact with the base. But I agree, it is easier with flying assaulters.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Anybody who hasn’t anticipated models being pulled by battle shock isn’t playing the game very well. You have to grab multiple models, or characters who don’t die from battleshock.
.

This more or less kind of sums up my point.

I don't like strategies where apart of it is out Sherlock holding your opponent. To me it's allitle bit "my if my opponent plays poorly."

I definitly get where you guys are coming where you can do it. It's more the executiong, and thier being many ways to prevent you from having this option. I've had my fair share of games where I snare my opponents and lock units in combat all game, but odds are after doing it to that opponent 2 or 3 times, they'll realize they can just position better and be okay.

Launching off that idea in a tournament one can assume the top opponent won't be so easily pulled in this sitiation. Having played both sides of this melee army that tries to tie you in combat to protect your models from damage. It's not super reliable, and being only T3 with a 3+/4+ save any charge squad has a decent shot of just punching you to death. Even guard can double thier combat phase these days, and some guard are str 4.

As always try it. If it works report back, but I suspect in the ling run this strategy will fall flat.


Just to show you I don't even think the idea is completely ridiculous. I have been building up a jet bike force with lots of shining spears and wind riders that aim to lock opponents in melee turn 1. But as has been admited. Fly lets you do this stray a lot better, and doing it turn one prevents you from being too beat up before you get there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niiru wrote:



It's the hazard of having to write up 40 different summaries for units in a vacuum, when there's no damage/pts/durability standards out there. I didn't realise that Avengers and Hawks had the same damage/pts output as each other. It's why I asked a few days ago if people would want a standard damage/durability per points stat for each unit, but it didnt seem to get much of a backing so I haven't looked into doing anything about it yet.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll alter those summaries a little so they're a bit more even handed. All the summaries are basically drafted off the top of my head or using other peoples opinions from forums, so there's going to need to be some updates (especially as there is now the codex).

Well even handedness isn't required unless it's your goal. It just depends on if that what you want the most out of the site or not. I think an even ton for summaries and a more pros/cons to tactics would look really good.

mmimzie wrote:

Niiru wrote:



It's the hazard of having to write up 40 different summaries for units in a vacuum, when there's no damage/pts/durability standards out there. I didn't realise that Avengers and Hawks had the same damage/pts output as each other. It's why I asked a few days ago if people would want a standard damage/durability per points stat for each unit, but it didnt seem to get much of a backing so I haven't looked into doing anything about it yet.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll alter those summaries a little so they're a bit more even handed. All the summaries are basically drafted off the top of my head or using other peoples opinions from forums, so there's going to need to be some updates (especially as there is now the codex).

Well even handedness isn't required unless it's your goal. It just depends on if that what you want the most out of the site or not. I think an even ton for summaries and a more pros/cons to tactics would look really good.

I can agree with that. As the summaries gradually get longer from information on here, I'll then start splitting up the general "summary" information from the pros/cons tactic information. At the moment I only have basic summaries, so splitting it up is a bit of a waste.

Edit: Also it was pointed out to me that the "disconnect" you found when reading through the summaries might just be because there were two different Authors - Dawnstrider was kind enough to do a couple of the pages of summaries for me, and I only mildly edited them when I put them onto the site. Some of his text should really be in the tactics sections, but I haven't sorting it all out yet. Like I said, over time it should all end up with the right info in the right places

I’d like to hear peoples thoughts on the idea of Brightlance/Starcannon Saim-Hann Vypers vs the Crimson Hunter Exarch, especially when paired with an Autarch.

2 Bright Lance-Shuriken Cannon Vypers and the Autarch Skyrunner with Lance are 93 points more expensive than the Crimson Hunter Exarch with Bright Lances, but each time I look at the figures, the Vypers are significantly better vs GEQ, and then pretty much on par vs everything else in terms of rough average damage output.

Vs Vyper.......CHE
GEQ............... 3.888.......1.945
MEQ............... 2.333.......1.783
TEQ (5++).......2.246.......2.593
TEQ Stormshield.....1.382.......1.297
Primaris...........3.629.......3.566
T5....................4.666.......4.668
Custodes.........1.728.......1.686
T6....................4.407.......4.668
T7....................4.147.......4.668
T8....................3.240.......3.501



Overall, both units have 12 wounds, but the CHE has +1 T and is hard to hit. However, the CHE has “somewhat” limited movement options, cannot hold objectives and is an added risk in terms of “Troops on the Ground” rules.
Now, personally I feel like I’ll almost always be running an Autarch warlord due to some of the synergies he already provides, along with the CP regain and being a “potential” melee threat when needed, but others might not agree -especially as I’ve not seen many included in Dakka lists so far.

Starcannon comparison.

Vs....................Vyper.......CHE
GEQ................5.184.......2.918
MEQ................2.765.......2.107
TEQ (5++).......3.283.......3.371
TEQ Stormshield.....1.901.......1.686
Primaris...........4.493.......4.214
T5....................4.493.......4.538
Custodes.........1.901.......1.815
T6....................3.370.......3.890
T7....................2.246.......3.242
T8....................2.246.......2.755

As you can see, again the Vypers tend to do significantly better vs GEQ and standard troops, but starts to suffer from T6+ vs the CHE.
So, thoughts around Vypers vs Crimson Hunter Exarchs? And which would you consider running? The Bright Lances or the Starcannons?

Edit - excuse the "....." Dakka formatting OP and i can't upload pics right now.

Your problem is, that starcannons and brightlances aren't supposed to be fired at GEQ. Therefore being good at that is not a selling point.

Kdash wrote:
I’d like to hear peoples thoughts on the idea of Brightlance/Starcannon Saim-Hann Vypers vs the Crimson Hunter Exarch, especially when paired with an Autarch.

2 Bright Lance-Shuriken Cannon Vypers and the Autarch Skyrunner with Lance are 93 points more expensive than the Crimson Hunter Exarch with Bright Lances, but each time I look at the figures, the Vypers are significantly better vs GEQ, and then pretty much on par vs everything else in terms of rough average damage output.

Vs Vyper CHE
GEQ 3.888 1.945
MEQ 2.333 1.783
TEQ (5++) 2.246 2.593
TEQ Stormshield 1.382 1.297
Primaris 3.629 3.566
T5 4.666 4.668
Custodes 1.728 1.686
T6 4.407 4.668
T7 4.147 4.668
T8 3.240 3.501



Overall, both units have 12 wounds, but the CHE has +1 T and is hard to hit. However, the CHE has “somewhat” limited movement options, cannot hold objectives and is an added risk in terms of “Troops on the Ground” rules.
Now, personally I feel like I’ll almost always be running an Autarch warlord due to some of the synergies he already provides, along with the CP regain and being a “potential” melee threat when needed, but others might not agree -especially as I’ve not seen many included in Dakka lists so far.

Starcannon comparison.

Vs Vyper CHE
GEQ 5.184 2.918
MEQ 2.765 2.107
TEQ (5++) 3.283 3.371
TEQ Stormshield 1.901 1.686
Primaris 4.493 4.214
T5 4.493 4.538
Custodes 1.901 1.815
T6 3.370 3.890
T7 2.246 3.242
T8 2.246 2.755

As you can see, again the Vypers tend to do significantly better vs GEQ and standard troops, but starts to suffer from T6+ vs the CHE.
So, thoughts around Vypers vs Crimson Hunter Exarchs? And which would you consider running? The Bright Lances or

I prefer the Brightlances on the CHE. With the reroll of 1 to hit, I find this to be a good platform for my anti tank

 Sarigar wrote:

Kdash wrote:
I’d like to hear peoples thoughts on the idea of Brightlance/Starcannon Saim-Hann Vypers vs the Crimson Hunter Exarch, especially when paired with an Autarch.

2 Bright Lance-Shuriken Cannon Vypers and the Autarch Skyrunner with Lance are 93 points more expensive than the Crimson Hunter Exarch with Bright Lances, but each time I look at the figures, the Vypers are significantly better vs GEQ, and then pretty much on par vs everything else in terms of rough average damage output.

Vs Vyper CHE
GEQ 3.888 1.945
MEQ 2.333 1.783
TEQ (5++) 2.246 2.593
TEQ Stormshield 1.382 1.297
Primaris 3.629 3.566
T5 4.666 4.668
Custodes 1.728 1.686
T6 4.407 4.668
T7 4.147 4.668
T8 3.240 3.501



Overall, both units have 12 wounds, but the CHE has +1 T and is hard to hit. However, the CHE has “somewhat” limited movement options, cannot hold objectives and is an added risk in terms of “Troops on the Ground” rules.
Now, personally I feel like I’ll almost always be running an Autarch warlord due to some of the synergies he already provides, along with the CP regain and being a “potential” melee threat when needed, but others might not agree -especially as I’ve not seen many included in Dakka lists so far.

Starcannon comparison.

Vs Vyper CHE
GEQ 5.184 2.918
MEQ 2.765 2.107
TEQ (5++) 3.283 3.371
TEQ Stormshield 1.901 1.686
Primaris 4.493 4.214
T5 4.493 4.538
Custodes 1.901 1.815
T6 3.370 3.890
T7 2.246 3.242
T8 2.246 2.755

As you can see, again the Vypers tend to do significantly better vs GEQ and standard troops, but starts to suffer from T6+ vs the CHE.
So, thoughts around Vypers vs Crimson Hunter Exarchs? And which would you consider running? The Bright Lances or

I prefer the Brightlances on the CHE. With the reroll of 1 to hit, I find this to be a good platform for my anti tank

Because the CHE will already re-roll 1's due to it's built in rule.

Wait!!! I'm an idiot and have got the CHE info wrong! Give me a few mins to adjust it all!

Kdash wrote:
I’d like to hear peoples thoughts on the idea of Brightlance/Starcannon Saim-Hann Vypers vs the Crimson Hunter Exarch, especially when paired with an Autarch.

2 Bright Lance-Shuriken Cannon Vypers and the Autarch Skyrunner with Lance are 93 points more expensive than the Crimson Hunter Exarch with Bright Lances, but each time I look at the figures, the Vypers are significantly better vs GEQ, and then pretty much on par vs everything else in terms of rough average damage output.

Vs Vyper CHE
GEQ 3.888 1.945
MEQ 2.333 1.783
TEQ (5++) 2.246 2.593
TEQ Stormshield 1.382 1.297
Primaris 3.629 3.566
T5 4.666 4.668
Custodes 1.728 1.686
T6 4.407 4.668
T7 4.147 4.668
T8 3.240 3.501



Overall, both units have 12 wounds, but the CHE has +1 T and is hard to hit. However, the CHE has “somewhat” limited movement options, cannot hold objectives and is an added risk in terms of “Troops on the Ground” rules.
Now, personally I feel like I’ll almost always be running an Autarch warlord due to some of the synergies he already provides, along with the CP regain and being a “potential” melee threat when needed, but others might not agree -especially as I’ve not seen many included in Dakka lists so far.

Starcannon comparison.

Vs Vyper CHE
GEQ 5.184 2.918
MEQ 2.765 2.107
TEQ (5++) 3.283 3.371
TEQ Stormshield 1.901 1.686
Primaris 4.493 4.214
T5 4.493 4.538
Custodes 1.901 1.815
T6 3.370 3.890
T7 2.246 3.242
T8 2.246 2.755

As you can see, again the Vypers tend to do significantly better vs GEQ and standard troops, but starts to suffer from T6+ vs the CHE.
So, thoughts around Vypers vs Crimson Hunter Exarchs? And which would you consider running? The Bright Lances or the Starcannons?

Anti infantry weapons do better against infantry is really no surprize. Crimson hunter is our best tank hunter. It goes after tanks. It's also good vs other flyers.