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Both Banshees and Scorpions have pretty poor damage output without support but good rules for getting them into combat.

Fortunately Eldar can put out so many buffs you really just need any warm body in the right place to put them on. There are buffs for making units hit, generating additional attacks, making units wound and lowering saves. So use the aspects rules to get them into place and the buffs to do the damage.

As a back up, the ability for these units to easily get where there need to be has some value by itself. Scorpions can DS onto objectives and Banshees speed and ability to ignore overwatch means they can shut down shooting units.

I don't think doing this really makes either unit highly competitive but they can at least do work.


I used both once so far and thought they showed potential:

The Scorpions dropped in next to some grot heavy weapons that were camping an objective in cover. I used the Court of the young king strat to give them a 7" charge and hit on 2's rerolling 1's. Had I not rolled snake eyes for the charge they would have wiped out a heavy support choice and been sat on an objective in my opponents backfield with a 2+ save. Sadly they just got shot off the board.

The banshees jumped out of a Wave Serpent, got buffed up, and dashed ~30" to charge a Trygon and put 17 wounds on it.

What buffs are allowing Banshees putting 17 wounds on a trygon in one turn.

This doesn't sound impossible, but so statistically unlikely that's it's basically meaningless.

Just noticed it but did someone considered or tested Vaul's Wrath with Vibro canon as a Nid counter?

1d3 S7 -1 will surely cause 1 wound on most normal nids and then negate them advancing, thus shutting down some turn 1 charges ( at least for the 1st screening units)

On later turns the extra Ap and fixed wounds can make the weapons shine blasting bigger creatures out of the table.

Any toughts or experience with those?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What buffs are allowing Banshees putting 17 wounds on a trygon in one turn.

This doesn't sound impossible, but so statistically unlikely that's it's basically meaningless.

Empower will give them a +1 to wound, and Doom will let you re-roll wounds. You can also then enhance and/or Jinx to lower saves and a further +1 to hit


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Perversor wrote:
Just noticed it but did someone considered or tested Vaul's Wrath with Vibro canon as a Nid counter?

1d3 S7 -1 will surely cause 1 wound on most normal nids and then negate them advancing, thus shutting down some turn 1 charges ( at least for the 1st screening units)

On later turns the extra Ap and fixed wounds can make the weapons shine blasting bigger creatures out of the table.

Any toughts or experience with those?

I've been looking at the vibro cannon as a potential Dark Reaper replacement. Unless i've got it wrong (need to re-visit the math) but 2 vibro cannons will out perform a unit of 5 Reapers, for 15 points less. There are, of course other things to consider though.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What buffs are allowing Banshees putting 17 wounds on a trygon in one turn.

This doesn't sound impossible, but so statistically unlikely that's it's basically meaningless.

Going from my less than perfect memory:

Quicken, Enhance, Empower, Doom and Supreme Disdain.

Averages:

10 Pistol shots= 2.5 wounds (slightly more due to reroll 1s from Biel-tan).

9 Power swords= 9.26 wounds.

Executioner= 4.4 wounds

Total= ~16 wounds.

Maths is quick and dirty but I think it's right.

You were saying?


Edit: Interestingly the maths is the same vs most vehicles in the game (T7 3+ sv). Fire Dragons got killed? Banshees be like: "Hold my beer".

Maths doesn’t seem right.
1 Str 7 shot at ap -1 d3 wounds and 1 Str 7 shot at ap-2, +1 to wound and d3+1 wound doesn’t look anywhere close to 5 Str 8 ap-2 3 damage shots that always hit on 3s.

Where the vibrocannons do have the advantage is survivability in that t5 and 5w is a lot harder to kill then t3. Plus you have to wipe the vibriocannon completely before it loses any offence. And then you have the second one to get through. Whereas each dead reaper is one less shot coming out.

Wyldcarde wrote:
Maths doesn’t seem right.
1 Str 7 shot at ap -1 d3 wounds and 1 Str 7 shot at ap-2, +1 to wound and d3+1 wound doesn’t look anywhere close to 5 Str 8 ap-2 3 damage shots that always hit on 3s.

Where the vibrocannons do have the advantage is survivability in that t5 and 5w is a lot harder to kill then t3. Plus you have to wipe the vibriocannon completely before it loses any offence. And then you have the second one to get through. Whereas each dead reaper is one less shot coming out.

The Vibro Cannons now have D3 shots i believe, so i was averaging 4 shots vs the 5.

Oh sorry. Battlescribe was showing old stats.
Ok so d3 Str 7 ap-1 d2 shots and d3 str7 ap-2 d3 shots. Yeah that definitely stacks up more favourably. Str 7 to Str 8 is a big deal tho. Against their ideal targets reapers are 3s to hit 3s to wound while vibrios are 3s to hit 4s to wound. With a similar amount of shots, 1 less ap on half the shots and one less damage on half the shots. So advantage reapers.
Against lighter targets reapers just switch to heavy 2 and get twice as many shots as the vibros with a similar roll required as Str 7 and Str 5 are both wounding t4 on 3s.
Then the reapers get 3+ to hit and rerolled 1s for the exarch. Plus tempest launcher for an extra 5 points. Vibrocannons get shuriken catapault shots within 12” but if the enemy are that close the support weapon is in trouble.
So edge still sits with the reapers. A third vibrocannon makes things interesting tho. Still have the edge survivability tho.
Close enough for consideration tho.

Wyldcarde wrote:

Where the vibrocannons do have the advantage is survivability in that t5 and 5w is a lot harder to kill then t3. Plus you have to wipe the vibriocannon completely before it loses any offence. And then you have the second one to get through. Whereas each dead reaper is one less shot coming out.

Vibrocannons actually degrade really poorly relative to Dark Reapers because of their special rule, and are not more durable in the face of long-range anti-tank shooting. When half of the Reapers die, the unit shoots half as well -- they just scale with unit size. Against T7 3+, when one of three vibro cannons dies, the unit shoots half as well. When one of two cannons dies, the unit shoots 36% as well. The last of three vibro cannons shoots 18% as well as all three did originally. It's true that the vibro cannons keep more of their firepower if the unit takes some wounds but not enough to actually kill a single cannon, but this is not very likely to happen since they're still pretty fragile.

Also note that a BS3+ lascannon expects to kill 10 points of Dark Reaper in cover vs 18 points of vibro cannon. With stuff like heavy bolters this is flipped, but it's not clear to me that one is more durable than the other in general since it's not like your artillery will be in range of most small arms. You can also protect the Reapers with Serpents on turn 1.

Reapers also come with an Exarch, who is fantastic. Simply bringing the Exarch along as an extra wound makes a 3-man Reaper squad almost as durable (per point) in the face of assault cannon fire as a vibro cannon battery. The Exarch also makes sure that the Reapers degrade more slowly than the cannons even when the units only take a small amount of fire.

Who is shooting lascannons at dark reapers?

If your opponent is shooting lascannons at a vibrocannon that is a win right there.
The reason I meant the same points cost of vibros is more survivable is more along the lines of:
A 5 man reaper squad takes 5 wounds. The unit is dead and no longer shooting. The vibrocannons take 5 wounds. 1 vibrocannon is dead but the other can still shoot. So whereas the vibrocannons are less effective at least they are still actually alive.

And with the prevalance of deep striking etc it isn’t difficult for an anti infantry unit to get into range of a reaper unit early on. Wave serpent helps turn 1 but once they get out and shoot they are fair game. And will be priority one to kill.

That being said I’d still take the reapers.

Dionysodorus wrote:

Wyldcarde wrote:

Where the vibrocannons do have the advantage is survivability in that t5 and 5w is a lot harder to kill then t3. Plus you have to wipe the vibriocannon completely before it loses any offence. And then you have the second one to get through. Whereas each dead reaper is one less shot coming out.

Vibrocannons actually degrade really poorly relative to Dark Reapers because of their special rule, and are not more durable in the face of long-range anti-tank shooting. When half of the Reapers die, the unit shoots half as well -- they just scale with unit size. Against T7 3+, when one of three vibro cannons dies, the unit shoots half as well. When one of two cannons dies, the unit shoots 36% as well. The last of three vibro cannons shoots 18% as well as all three did originally. It's true that the vibro cannons keep more of their firepower if the unit takes some wounds but not enough to actually kill a single cannon, but this is not very likely to happen since they're still pretty fragile.

Also note that a BS3+ lascannon expects to kill 10 points of Dark Reaper in cover vs 18 points of vibro cannon. With stuff like heavy bolters this is flipped, but it's not clear to me that one is more durable than the other in general since it's not like your artillery will be in range of most small arms. You can also protect the Reapers with Serpents on turn 1.

Reapers also come with an Exarch, who is fantastic. Simply bringing the Exarch along as an extra wound makes a 3-man Reaper squad almost as durable (per point) in the face of assault cannon fire as a vibro cannon battery. The Exarch also makes sure that the Reapers degrade more slowly than the cannons even when the units only take a small amount of fire.

Another point you need to take into consideration is that sometimes you're not too bothered about doing the damage due to the new vibro rule halving the movement of the target unit.

I'd also argue that, while a Lascanoon will expect to do more points per shot worth of damage, when it does wound, it will kill 1 Reaper, while it only has a 33% chance of killing the Vibro cannon. -IF- the cannon survives, the drop in damage the Reapers will take vs the cannon starts to become more apparent. Also, alpha strike units, like plasma scions will also reduce the damage out put of the Reapers quicker than the cannons, as they are separate units.

I'm just thrilled that VibroCannons are in the conversation at all!

DCannon4Life wrote:
I'm just thrilled that VibroCannons are in the conversation at all!

Seems odd given your username.

Wyldcarde wrote:
Oh sorry. Battlescribe was showing old stats.
Ok so d3 Str 7 ap-1 d2 shots and d3 str7 ap-2 d3 shots. Yeah that definitely stacks up more favourably. Str 7 to Str 8 is a big deal tho. Against their ideal targets reapers are 3s to hit 3s to wound while vibrios are 3s to hit 4s to wound. With a similar amount of shots, 1 less ap on half the shots and one less damage on half the shots. So advantage reapers.
Against lighter targets reapers just switch to heavy 2 and get twice as many shots as the vibros with a similar roll required as Str 7 and Str 5 are both wounding t4 on 3s.
Then the reapers get 3+ to hit and rerolled 1s for the exarch. Plus tempest launcher for an extra 5 points. Vibrocannons get shuriken catapault shots within 12” but if the enemy are that close the support weapon is in trouble.
So edge still sits with the reapers. A third vibrocannon makes things interesting tho. Still have the edge survivability tho.
Close enough for consideration tho.

Sorry but you guys are focusing too much on mathammer, and i feel some of it it's based on the wrong assumption.

The vibro rule allow further weapons to improve it's Ap and *wound rolls* not damage of the weapon.

It's mean a 2nd weapon will just wound T8 on 4+ and 3rd should be there (reachin 180 points) will do at 3+ , so it's Dmg per shoot it's a flat 2.

But the thing that interest me mostly it's the No advance rule after suffer damage, we know nids get advantages of extra movement rules, Advance +charge, extra movement and Advance and i think a pair or Trio of Vibro cannons can allow us just that 1 extra turn of time by slowing the 1st lines of advancing nids.

P.S: also worth to remember Vaul's do have Guardian Keyword, so Celestial shield and Discipline of the Black guardians stratagems work for them.

Wyldcarde wrote:
Who is shooting lascannons at dark reapers?

If your opponent is shooting lascannons at a vibrocannon that is a win right there.
The reason I meant the same points cost of vibros is more survivable is more along the lines of:
A 5 man reaper squad takes 5 wounds. The unit is dead and no longer shooting. The vibrocannons take 5 wounds. 1 vibrocannon is dead but the other can still shoot. So whereas the vibrocannons are less effective at least they are still actually alive.

And with the prevalance of deep striking etc it isn’t difficult for an anti infantry unit to get into range of a reaper unit early on. Wave serpent helps turn 1 but once they get out and shoot they are fair game. And will be priority one to kill.

That being said I’d still take the reapers.

This doesn't really match my experience, and doesn't make any sense at all re: "If your opponent is shooting lascannons at a vibrocannon that is a win right there."

People shoot lascannons at Reapers all the time. As I said, a BS3+ lascannon expects to kill 10 points of Reaper in cover. This is a slightly better return than shooting BS3+ lascannons at Shining Spears (7.9 points per shot) or cheap Serpents (9.8 pps), and is only a little worse than shooting them at Hemlocks (13.5 pps). If both are Alatoic or the lascannons are BS4+ then it's even closer. Reapers will often be one of the best targets for lascannons in an Eldar list.

It's just silly to look at wounds alone. Reapers have fewer wounds for the points, but these wounds are split up among more models, which is good against multi-damage shooting, and they'll get a significantly better save since they have a 3+ base and are infantry in cover. Your comparison is only relevant for mortal wounds, which are generally very hard to place at range.

You shouldn't be letting people deep strike within 12" of your Reapers. Regardless, the vibro cannons are slightly more vulnerable to plasma guns and significantly more vulnerable to melta guns than are Reapers. I haven't seen much deep striking of anti-infantry shooting, but note anyway that batteries aren't significantly more durable in the face of bolter fire than small Reaper squads.

Vibro cannons are more vulnerable to lascannons than almost anything else Eldar can take. A lascannon kills more points of vibro cannon than points of shuriken cannon Vyper even. Unless you just think that support weapons are horribly overpriced such that the real right answer is to ignore them, shooting them with lascannons is a fantastic decision.

Kdash wrote:

Another point you need to take into consideration is that sometimes you're not too bothered about doing the damage due to the new vibro rule halving the movement of the target unit.

I'd also argue that, while a Lascanoon will expect to do more points per shot worth of damage, when it does wound, it will kill 1 Reaper, while it only has a 33% chance of killing the Vibro cannon. -IF- the cannon survives, the drop in damage the Reapers will take vs the cannon starts to become more apparent. Also, alpha strike units, like plasma scions will also reduce the damage out put of the Reapers quicker than the cannons, as they are separate units.

To be clear, I wasn't saying anything about the shooting of either unit. I was just pointing out that Reapers are as or more durable in most realistic scenarios.

It just seems very strange to me to talk like it's that big of an advantage for support weapons that they can take a couple wounds without losing a model. Armies don't just have two lascannons. Typical armies I play as and against are going to be in a position to fire a series of lascannon-type guns with lighter follow-up if necessary. You're also making the mistake of ignoring the Reaper's save. A lascannon hit has a 56% chance of killing a Reaper, and a 22% chance of killing a vibro cannon. And another 44% of the time it's going to do some damage to the cannon which makes it easier to kill later on.

I don't understand the point you're trying to make about plasma scions. I think you're saying that they're more likely to overkill the support batteries -- you want to devote just enough firepower to kill the battery but not enough to overkill it, and if you fall short then the battery is at full strength still. But people have to make pretty similar decisions with Reapers, which after all come in 4-wound squads. The Exarch's tempest launcher is a big deal, and you really want to make sure he dies. And armies will generally have other guns that they can direct at the squad to finish it off. When I shoot, I choose the units that are basically forced to fire at a particular target first, and then I choose targets for my longer-ranged units based on the results of that shooting. You don't just drop a plasma squad next to a unit and assume it's going to do its average damage or whatever.

Lord Perversor wrote:

But the thing that interest me mostly it's the No advance rule after suffer damage, we know nids get advantages of extra movement rules, Advance +charge, extra movement and Advance and i think a pair or Trio of Vibro cannons can allow us just that 1 extra turn of time by slowing the 1st lines of advancing nids.

I'm going to put my "Vibrocannon" into your "Genestealer". You won't be moving very fast afterwards.

Also note that you're only about 50% likely to do damage to Genestealers with a single vibro cannon, and you only stop them from advancing if you kill one.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Also note that you're only about 50% likely to do damage to Genestealers with a single vibro cannon, and you only stop them from advancing if you kill one.

Just to be clear: My post was a big fat pile of innuendo, not any kind of tactical advice.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

DCannon4Life wrote:
I'm just thrilled that VibroCannons are in the conversation at all!

Seems odd given your username.

I'm a huge fan of Distortion Cannons, it's true, but when I first started playing all I had were metal VibroCannons...that I proxied as Distortion Cannons because the VCs were so bad.

I don’t know what else you got running in your list but with wave serpents, hemlocks, fire prisms and crimson hunters flying around, if my opponent wants to shoot his anti tank weapons at a dark reaper unit, be my guest. Ditto at a vibrocannon.

Wyldcarde wrote:
I don’t know what else you got running in your list but with wave serpents, hemlocks, fire prisms and crimson hunters flying around, if my opponent wants to shoot his anti tank weapons at a dark reaper unit, be my guest. Ditto at a vibrocannon.

I mean, I specifically addressed 2 of these 4 things. Crimson Hunters are a lot like Hemlocks in terms of what they're vulnerable to. Fire Prisms are more vulnerable than Dark Reapers to lascannons, yes -- they're almost as fragile as vibro cannons. You're just not actually looking at how much these cost vs how much damage a lascannon actually expects to do to them. Your position just isn't coherent. Like, if you really think that it's great for your opponent to shoot a support battery with a lascannon instead of a Fire Prism, it must be because you value the Prism's offensive output much more relative to its durability. But it's slightly more durable than the battery. And actually lascannons are close to a worst-case scenario for Prisms. So really you just think that Fire Prisms are much better buys than vibro cannons, and you think your list would be a lot better if you just took your two or three vibro cannons and bought another Prism instead.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What buffs are allowing Banshees putting 17 wounds on a trygon in one turn.

This doesn't sound impossible, but so statistically unlikely that's it's basically meaningless.

Going from my less than perfect memory:

Quicken, Enhance, Empower, Doom and Supreme Disdain.

You were saying?

He was saying that it was so statistically unlikely that it was basically meaningless. And he's correct.

22% chance to cast all those powers assuming none are denied. Let alone 4 guys within range and spending command points.

Dionysodorus wrote:

Wyldcarde wrote:
I don’t know what else you got running in your list but with wave serpents, hemlocks, fire prisms and crimson hunters flying around, if my opponent wants to shoot his anti tank weapons at a dark reaper unit, be my guest. Ditto at a vibrocannon.

I mean, I specifically addressed 2 of these 4 things. Crimson Hunters are a lot like Hemlocks in terms of what they're vulnerable to. Fire Prisms are more vulnerable than Dark Reapers to lascannons, yes -- they're almost as fragile as vibro cannons. You're just not actually looking at how much these cost vs how much damage a lascannon actually expects to do to them. Your position just isn't coherent. Like, if you really think that it's great for your opponent to shoot a support battery with a lascannon instead of a Fire Prism, it must be because you value the Prism's offensive output much more relative to its durability. But it's slightly more durable than the battery. And actually lascannons are close to a worst-case scenario for Prisms. So really you just think that Fire Prisms are much better buys than vibro cannons, and you think your list would be a lot better if you just took your two or three vibro cannons and bought another Prism instead.

Just for reference - you need just over 6 lascannon hits to kill a Fire Prism, and 7 to kill 5 Dark Reapers. Not much different, but the Reapers also degrade faster. Cover affects both in a similar way, but Reapers are easier to squeeze into cover, and can benefit from more psyker buffs like Protect etc.

Worth noting that a Fire Prism is hurt a lot more by an opportune deviation than Reapers are. One really good Lascannon hit is always going to kill the same amount of Reapers as one really bad one, but not so for a Prism.

Dionysodorus wrote:

Wyldcarde wrote:
I don’t know what else you got running in your list but with wave serpents, hemlocks, fire prisms and crimson hunters flying around, if my opponent wants to shoot his anti tank weapons at a dark reaper unit, be my guest. Ditto at a vibrocannon.

I mean, I specifically addressed 2 of these 4 things. Crimson Hunters are a lot like Hemlocks in terms of what they're vulnerable to. Fire Prisms are more vulnerable than Dark Reapers to lascannons, yes -- they're almost as fragile as vibro cannons. You're just not actually looking at how much these cost vs how much damage a lascannon actually expects to do to them. Your position just isn't coherent. Like, if you really think that it's great for your opponent to shoot a support battery with a lascannon instead of a Fire Prism, it must be because you value the Prism's offensive output much more relative to its durability. But it's slightly more durable than the battery. And actually lascannons are close to a worst-case scenario for Prisms. So really you just think that Fire Prisms are much better buys than vibro cannons, and you think your list would be a lot better if you just took your two or three vibro cannons and bought another Prism instead.

Firstly, I’m not running vibrocannons. I don’t think they are good enough. But someone raised the comparison and looking st the numbers it is closer than I originally gave it credit for.

Secondly, your stance on lascannons shooting at reapers is all well and good in an army with infinite lascannons to shoot. But they don’t. Lascannons might be good at killing dark reapers and dark reapers might be expensive models making it an attractive model from a points killed per shot, but realistically your enemy has limited options to deal with the aforementioned threats I mentioned. So tactically from an opportunity perspective wasting those shots on something that can just as easily be killed by bolter Fire is absolutely a win for the eldar player, where the high strength and multiple wounds is pretty much wasted. And eventually your opponent will run out of good options to deal with those big tank threats.

I thibk when you get down to it you're all abit right on this vribro cannon/fire prism vs reaper debate

The real answer is more what fits best in your list.

All of these options can do thier job well. The vribro cannon isn't so good at killing T8 tanks but it's possible againdt T7 and T6 vehicles. The firm prism is great and has access to stratagem that make them better than everyone else, and the dark repeats are solid, and have a lot of the infantry flexibilities.

The all also are pretty vunerable. Las cannons at a repeat squad is a good idea if your army is all mechanized and you need to wodsle down the repeats or get beat up.

The real consideration I think is target reducrion. If your whole army is mechanized all of your army becomes more resilient against Las cannons as thier stops being enough Las cannons to punch a good hole in your list. Similar if your army is all infantry than all the small arms fire starts to become abit stretched and the Las cannons struggle to find targets.

On that note the mechanized list has an advantage as Las cannons do very well against reapers. However, that's because i don't honestly think reapers are the best anti tank option if you are looking to take this advantage.

Shining spears really out class repears in damage. Not even making combat the 3 man squad will run circles around the reapers in damage out put against everything, but the spears also have high speed and a devastating melee phase that warlocks can agument. From thier they aren't as vulnerable to Las cannons as thier is a chance that a Las cannon shot even if you fail invuln save might not kill you're models.

That said reapers do have range and this can be the difference from getting attacks on a target or not. Honestly, I'm not much of a reaper fan. Almost certainly because my phone always autp correct it to repeats lol. I think the repears are more like the AML where you really bring them to give the exarch a tempest missle launchers and the casual damage from the other two helps with anti armor.

If I really really wanted to add a strong anti tank module to my force i' d take take either a few units of shining spears, a big unit of shining spears (if you plan to bring warlocks support), or 2-3 fire prisms so you can use the stratagem.

EDIT for new topic:

Scat bike and or shuriken cannon bikes might actually have a place. With forewarn they work really well putting out more fire power than most other units and having a massive range. This can do a lot to counter deep strike units like surprise party genestealers in the new book, and plasma vets. Letting you effectively destroy either of these units or force them to stay out of your 36" range of fire on a face moving unit that will most likely be mid field turn 1. ON top of this the unit benefits greatly from guide as it's a lot of points being buffed at once, providing a pretty fair anti horde force once buffed, and not needing CP like guardian drop squads.

So I am looking at shining spears and I really like the idea of a first turn assault with their 16" move and quicken. But how big of a unit of shining spears should someone take and what are their preferred targets?

Also speaking of proper targets for units, what are warpspiders used for now? They used to be harassers that could move across the board like crazy but now I feel their mobility has been stunted and their gun doesn't seem different from the huge multitude of shuriken shots we have.

Honestly, with their ability to deepstrike, high mobility, solid saves, ability to use the Fly rule, and static -1 to be hit by shooting, I feel they'd do a better job at dropping in and tying up enemy units in CC than Scorpions would.

lambsandlions wrote:So I am looking at shining spears and I really like the idea of a first turn assault with their 16" move and quicken. But how big of a unit of shining spears should someone take and what are their preferred targets?

Spear can target anything really well. They pair as onpar to better against all enemy units when compared to really anything in the book (may or may not require actualy making melee to do really well). So basically throw them at anything you want dead, and you'll be excited.

Unit size is based on your army. If you wanna go big i'd say take 9, and try to hit two units. Though i'd only go 9 if you plan to also support them with warlock and maybe farseer support. Enhance +1 to hit and supreme disdain is great for killing GEQ/MEQ/TEQ level models. For tanks/monster Empower for +1 to wound works really well as it end up being something like a 50% increase in damage. If you want to throw the squad at a knight Empower/Enhance/supreme disdain (and maaaaaaybe doom) will see the knight dead in one round of combat on average with out even shooting the lances at the guy (you can guarantee the knight dies by throwing the lances at the thing and casting doom he'll die about every time, and autarch sitting around bufffing will also help push those odds). They can do the same against everything in the game to be honest. MAgnus/morty/Girlyman all are shaking in thier boots at the site of a buffed up squad, and with quicken you can gamble on buffing the squad outside of deny range, and then shoot the squad into the thick of things with quicken. Definitely think these are kind of a death starish unit.

Low support or no warlock support i'd just take min squads. They are still good, but the buffs are as amazing unless you get that dramatic force multiplication on tons of models.

Do note if you're worried about them taking heat turn 1 you always have the option to webway them in and quicken them with they drop. Quicken will still let them make charges normal units in that situation couldn't (over the heads of screens and scout screens).

Fafnir wrote:Honestly, with their ability to deepstrike, high mobility, solid saves, ability to use the Fly rule, and static -1 to be hit by shooting, I feel they do a better job at dropping in and tying up enemy units in CC than Scorpions do.

You know i don't disagree with you at all here. They are tough enough to deep strike attempt a long bomb charge, and failing that milk flicker jump and potential cover to tank through the enemy turn and go for the charge after they get thier move in.

Tabled 2000 points of Black templars primaris by turn 4 with this list: