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 Korlandril wrote:
I have been thinking about big squads of Shining Spears with buffs in line with the thinking here.

A similar combo I have been thinking of is 3 Vypers with double Shuriken Cannons. You can buff these up the same, protect for 2+ save, Alaitoc and Conceal for -2 to hit outside of 12". If you can keep 3 up then movement is 20" which is great.

Quicken can let these guys move 40" which could be great for objective grabbing.

In summary t5, 2+ save, 20" move, -2 to hit, 18 wounds for 210pts plus two Warlocks for buffs. Downside is 6 Shuriken cannons worth of firepower only.

I don't think your enemy will bother with a few Vypers if you go to all the effort of buffing their resilience with conceal and protect. They don't have enough teeth to be a threat, so your opponent will just shoot other more vulnerable targets.

So, originally i was thinking Saim-Hann for my webway Spears, but, part of me now things Biel-Tan is the way to go.

This is simply down to redundancy as others have mentioned. if quicken fails we have 2 options - Saim-Hann re-rolling charges, or Biel-Tan for a +2 to the charge.

The more i think about it, the +2 to charge is likely always going to be better in a failed Quicken situation as you can then use a further 1 CP to re-roll one of the dice... It means you're now spending up to 4 CP to get them into position compared to the 1 of Saim-Hann, but arguably more reliable.

If Quicken does go off though, then there are no problems.

If you are starting on the table though, you def want Saim-Hann for the stratagem in my opinion.

Kdash wrote:
So, originally i was thinking Saim-Hann for my webway Spears, but, part of me now things Biel-Tan is the way to go.

This is simply down to redundancy as others have mentioned. if quicken fails we have 2 options - Saim-Hann re-rolling charges, or Biel-Tan for a +2 to the charge.

The more i think about it, the +2 to charge is likely always going to be better in a failed Quicken situation as you can then use a further 1 CP to re-roll one of the dice... It means you're now spending up to 4 CP to get them into position compared to the 1 of Saim-Hann, but arguably more reliable.

If Quicken does go off though, then there are no problems.

If you are starting on the table though, you def want Saim-Hann for the stratagem in my opinion.

You are thinking about stuff wrong. Biel-tan's stratagem gives you +2 to you're charge. Saim-Hann's give your spears +6 to thier charge, as it allows your advancing units to charge, and bikes always advance 6, so you get to go 6' closer before you make you're charge. ON top of that you're also getting the reroll charge. Both stratagems (the biel-tan and Saim--hann one give you reroll 1's in the following fight phase). So for shining spears saim-hann is the only options.

realisticly i'd only think of using the stratagem only when i'm using two units any way, so you can advance one squads and charge, adn then quick another squad and charge. Only occationally would you really need to use the stratagem and quick a unit.

Yeah, even though I am 100% Biel-Tan in this instance, in the vacuum, Mmimzie is right. If you take your entire army into account maybe Beil-tan is better, maybe not. But just pure spears Saim-Hann is better.

Anyone know why the Biel-tan strat is 2CP? It would be more useful if it was 1 as power wise it's in line with the other Craftworld specific ones. Easily the worst Craftworld specific just because it's 2CP and not 1 despite being so similar to the Saim-hann strat.

 Korlandril wrote:
Anyone know why the Biel-tan strat is 2CP? It would be more useful if it was 1 as power wise it's in line with the other Craftworld specific ones. Easily the worst Craftworld specific just because it's 2CP and not 1 despite being so similar to the Saim-hann strat.

Everything involving the Avatar is ridiculously overpriced.

That's about all there is to it.


Yes, I'm bitter.

Who's the better babysitter for a squad of Dark Reapers? A farseer for Guide + Forewarned stratagem, or a Warlord Autarch for the passive re-roll 1s (no need to cast, frees up guide elsewhere) and a the chance to re-use CPs? Thinking primarily for a Siam-Hann list, so the Reapers are really going to be the only static unit.

 The Shadow wrote:
Who's the better babysitter for a squad of Dark Reapers? A farseer for Guide + Forewarned stratagem, or a Warlord Autarch for the passive re-roll 1s (no need to cast, frees up guide elsewhere) and a the chance to re-use CPs? Thinking primarily for a Siam-Hann list, so the Reapers are really going to be the only static unit.

Farseer is a no-brainer for a full sized squad. Forewarned can have a huge tactical impact. Min-sized can def favor Autarch, might even consider Maugen Ra for anything other than a hardcore game. With Saim Hann they likely are only going to live to shoot one turn, anyway.

Who has faced the new Nids yet ?

Any big changes that we should be scared of other than the psychic stuff?

mmimzie wrote:

Kdash wrote:
So, originally i was thinking Saim-Hann for my webway Spears, but, part of me now things Biel-Tan is the way to go.

This is simply down to redundancy as others have mentioned. if quicken fails we have 2 options - Saim-Hann re-rolling charges, or Biel-Tan for a +2 to the charge.

The more i think about it, the +2 to charge is likely always going to be better in a failed Quicken situation as you can then use a further 1 CP to re-roll one of the dice... It means you're now spending up to 4 CP to get them into position compared to the 1 of Saim-Hann, but arguably more reliable.

If Quicken does go off though, then there are no problems.

If you are starting on the table though, you def want Saim-Hann for the stratagem in my opinion.

You are thinking about stuff wrong. Biel-tan's stratagem gives you +2 to you're charge. Saim-Hann's give your spears +6 to thier charge, as it allows your advancing units to charge, and bikes always advance 6, so you get to go 6' closer before you make you're charge. ON top of that you're also getting the reroll charge. Both stratagems (the biel-tan and Saim--hann one give you reroll 1's in the following fight phase). So for shining spears saim-hann is the only options.

realisticly i'd only think of using the stratagem only when i'm using two units any way, so you can advance one squads and charge, adn then quick another squad and charge. Only occationally would you really need to use the stratagem and quick a unit.

While i agree that Saim-Hann gives you the extra 6", i'm talking about first turn from the Webway and the event of Quicken failing. In that event, i'd argue that the Biel-Tan stratagem is better, not to mention the bonus you'll have from re-rolling the shuriken catapult 1's.

If Quicken is cast successfully, then, it will all depend on the enemy deployment and whether or not you will need the extra 6" to get over the bubble wrap.

So, i think, if you get Quicken off, Saim-Hann is likely better, but, if you want to extra redundancy for the times it doesnt go off, then, Biel-Tan might be better.

Why webway Spears? I think you have to go S-H for full size Spears, which is their biggest downside.

 Galef wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
This is phenomenally powerful and is easily one of the best uses of Webway Strike. Though you probably want to go with a bigger squad since you're spending a CP and already planning on using Quicken. You don't need to deep strike a Warlock because Quicken has 18" range and Spears move 16" after getting hit with it. Especially if you're using a biker Warlock it's not going to be hard to reach one of the Spears unless you're wanting them to come on on your opponent's table edge (and he hasn't denied you the ability to do that). Consider also having another RoB caster use Protect since it gives them a 2+/3++.

Exactly. It's a lot of points and you risk something not going off (both powers need 7+) but if you can get 7-9 Spears to drop in, get Protect, then Quikcen them, you can assault pretty much anything you want. Preferably multiple units so you can tie up enemy shooting.
-

If you investing the points to do this, I would invest a few more points an another CP in a Warlock Conclave to cast the powers. Have a Farseer nearby so you can use the Seer Council stratagem to give you +1 to cast.

xmbk wrote:
Why webway Spears? I think you have to go S-H for full size Spears, which is their biggest downside.

Simply because of 1st turn. My army right now has more drops than most, so there is a strong chance i might not get first turn. In that case, my unit of 8 or 9 Spears will likely get targeted first turn as they will be one of the "main" threats and won't have any negatives to hit, like my flyers will.

For me, it's all about trying to plan for situations while playing a pretty glass hammer force.

They are pretty resilient. Is everything else in your list -2? I would rather have Spears shot turn 1 than Reapers.

So I personal leave the option open to webway in my shiny spears.


So in my list I have 2 big shiny spear squad.

If my opponent has devastating fire power that I can't deploy in such a away to protect both spear unirs. Then i can web way one unit and lightning reaction the other unit.

However if my opponents have really place scouts or need to move into me to really do thier eorst. Or if i can negate 8am lot of thier damage with my rangers (blocking drop plasm/tau commanders), then I'll deploy on the table and save my cp.

As for viel-tan you are right that you could get a more likely charge should quicken fail, but I use the saim-hann to go for two shining spear charges. One trying to charge after advancing and one trying to use quicken to allow a charge.

Also I think a better use of the two CP is to use seer council and maybe a command point reroll to have a better shot of getting quicken off.

mmimzie wrote:
So I personal leave the option open to webway in my shiny spears.


So in my list I have 2 big shiny spear squad.

If my opponent has devastating fire power that I can't deploy in such a away to protect both spear unirs. Then i can web way one unit and lightning reaction the other unit.

However if my opponents have really place scouts or need to move into me to really do thier eorst. Or if i can negate 8am lot of thier damage with my rangers (blocking drop plasm/tau commanders), then I'll deploy on the table and save my cp.

As for viel-tan you are right that you could get a more likely charge should quicken fail, but I use the saim-hann to go for two shining spear charges. One trying to charge after advancing and one trying to use quicken to allow a charge.

Also I think a better use of the two CP is to use seer council and maybe a command point reroll to have a better shot of getting quicken off.

Thats the only downside - 2 cp. While, as Biel-Tan i can give the warlock with Quicken the Biel-Tan relic to allow a full re-roll and then also use the farseer + warlock stratagem for a +1 to cast (this would also help with guide and fortune - though might be better to run it doom/fortune instead.)

Expensive in CP for all the options, but as i'm only running 1 squad it should drastically improve the odds of me getting the charge off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xmbk wrote:
They are pretty resilient. Is everything else in your list -2? I would rather have Spears shot turn 1 than Reapers.

Oh i agree they are pretty resilient, but, when everything else has -2 to hit/can't be targeted or is the 3 sets of dire avengers to make up the Biel-Tan battalion, i can fully see them being targeted every time. While it is up to 19 wounds to get through with a 4++, there are plenty of lists out there that can seriously damage the unit. A destroyed unit is then no real use to me due to my setup and i'd have to play the rest of the game defensively and hope they flyers make more than their points back.

A good chunk of my army is based around supporting them and ensuring they do as much damage in turns 1 and 2 as possible.

Kdash wrote:

mmimzie wrote:
So I personal leave the option open to webway in my shiny spears.


So in my list I have 2 big shiny spear squad.

If my opponent has devastating fire power that I can't deploy in such a away to protect both spear unirs. Then i can web way one unit and lightning reaction the other unit.

However if my opponents have really place scouts or need to move into me to really do thier eorst. Or if i can negate 8am lot of thier damage with my rangers (blocking drop plasm/tau commanders), then I'll deploy on the table and save my cp.

As for viel-tan you are right that you could get a more likely charge should quicken fail, but I use the saim-hann to go for two shining spear charges. One trying to charge after advancing and one trying to use quicken to allow a charge.

Also I think a better use of the two CP is to use seer council and maybe a command point reroll to have a better shot of getting quicken off.

Thats the only downside - 2 cp. While, as Biel-Tan i can give the warlock with Quicken the Biel-Tan relic to allow a full re-roll and then also use the farseer + warlock stratagem for a +1 to cast (this would also help with guide and fortune - though might be better to run it doom/fortune instead.)

Expensive in CP for all the options, but as i'm only running 1 squad it should drastically improve the odds of me getting the charge off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xmbk wrote:
They are pretty resilient. Is everything else in your list -2? I would rather have Spears shot turn 1 than Reapers.

Oh i agree they are pretty resilient, but, when everything else has -2 to hit/can't be targeted or is the 3 sets of dire avengers to make up the Biel-Tan battalion, i can fully see them being targeted every time. While it is up to 19 wounds to get through with a 4++, there are plenty of lists out there that can seriously damage the unit. A destroyed unit is then no real use to me due to my setup and i'd have to play the rest of the game defensively and hope they flyers make more than their points back.

A good chunk of my army is based around supporting them and ensuring they do as much damage in turns 1 and 2 as possible.

I'd rather give my spears -1 to hit by using lightning reflexes. You only in my opinion have the option of web way striking a spear squad because you want to force your opponent to shoot another spear squad who can be printed by lightning reactions.

 The Shadow wrote:
Who's the better babysitter for a squad of Dark Reapers? A farseer for Guide + Forewarned stratagem, or a Warlord Autarch for the passive re-roll 1s (no need to cast, frees up guide elsewhere) and a the chance to re-use CPs? Thinking primarily for a Siam-Hann list, so the Reapers are really going to be the only static unit.

Depends what else you have in your list. If you just have 1 biggish squad of Reapers then a Farseer is probably better as he can Guide them from up to 24" away so he is not tied to their location.

If you have multiple units or you have other shooty units nearby, the Autarch starts to look pretty good. It's not just Reapers that benefit. Support platforms, Grav Tanks, War Walkers and Wraithlords/knights are all good subjects for an Autarchs's buff. Basically any 2+ shoty units that are likely to remain in close proximity.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Anyone know why the Biel-tan strat is 2CP? It would be more useful if it was 1 as power wise it's in line with the other Craftworld specific ones. Easily the worst Craftworld specific just because it's 2CP and not 1 despite being so similar to the Saim-hann strat.

Everything involving the Avatar is ridiculously overpriced.

That's about all there is to it.


Yes, I'm bitter.

Not even considering the Avatar in that lol maybe if the regular version was what the Avatar gave it would be worth it.

I think the 3CP is more effective use of CP than the Biel-tan strat.

 Korlandril wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Anyone know why the Biel-tan strat is 2CP? It would be more useful if it was 1 as power wise it's in line with the other Craftworld specific ones. Easily the worst Craftworld specific just because it's 2CP and not 1 despite being so similar to the Saim-hann strat.

Everything involving the Avatar is ridiculously overpriced.

That's about all there is to it.


Yes, I'm bitter.

Not even considering the Avatar in that lol maybe if the regular version was what the Avatar gave it would be worth it.

I think the 3CP is more effective use of CP than the Biel-tan strat.

I ended up blowing 9 CP bringing The Avatar back 3 times in my last game. He was a pretty good sponge but he is far too fragile. He really should have a 2+/4+ like in the old days.

Used to be he would be protected from Dreadnoughts due to better initiative, usually wrecking them before they could attack, high WS meaning they would hit on 4+/5+. Would take about 40 attacks for them to take him down (if they got to attack). Nowadays if a Dreadnought gets a round against you The Avatar is probably going down hard.

 DivineVisitor wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Anyone know why the Biel-tan strat is 2CP? It would be more useful if it was 1 as power wise it's in line with the other Craftworld specific ones. Easily the worst Craftworld specific just because it's 2CP and not 1 despite being so similar to the Saim-hann strat.

Everything involving the Avatar is ridiculously overpriced.

That's about all there is to it.


Yes, I'm bitter.

Not even considering the Avatar in that lol maybe if the regular version was what the Avatar gave it would be worth it.

I think the 3CP is more effective use of CP than the Biel-tan strat.

I ended up blowing 9 CP bringing The Avatar back 3 times in my last game. He was a pretty good sponge but he is far too fragile. He really should have a 2+/4+ like in the old days.

Used to be he would be protected from Dreadnoughts due to better initiative, usually wrecking them before they could attack, high WS meaning they would hit on 4+/5+. Would take about 40 attacks for them to take him down (if they got to attack). Nowadays if a Dreadnought gets a round against you The Avatar is probably going down hard.

Oh wow, what was the reasoning for using basically all your CP on the resurection strat? You must have had a better use for them surely. How did the game go?

Just tweaking my Alaitoc gun line. It almost seems too simple but does the idea of babysitting 10 Rangers with a 35pt Warlock have any merit?

I'm thinking Empower = mortal wounds on a 5-6 (+regular damage) could start to get pretty uncomfortable?

Or perhaps 30 rangers with 3 Warlocks castin Empower.

Particularly if the target happens to be doomed as well ...

pessa wrote:
Just tweaking my Alaitoc gun line. It almost seems too simple but does the idea of babysitting 10 Rangers with a 35pt Warlock have any merit?

I'm thinking Empower = mortal wounds on a 5-6 (+regular damage) could start to get pretty uncomfortable?

Or perhaps 30 rangers with 3 Warlocks castin Empower.

Particularly if the target happens to be doomed as well ...

Empower is Fight phase only. Also, it can only be attempted once per turn.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

pessa wrote:
Just tweaking my Alaitoc gun line. It almost seems too simple but does the idea of babysitting 10 Rangers with a 35pt Warlock have any merit?

I'm thinking Empower = mortal wounds on a 5-6 (+regular damage) could start to get pretty uncomfortable?

Or perhaps 30 rangers with 3 Warlocks castin Empower.

Particularly if the target happens to be doomed as well ...

Empower is Fight phase only. Also, it can only be attempted once per turn.

Check. Now I just need to learn how to read and all will be well ...

Can we talk farseers and warlocks??? How many is too many?? Bikes or no bikes? What powers to bring???

Warlocks are the tricker one. Spirit seers exist and can cast big boy smites for 10 more points or so, while also gaining access to the runes of battle. Benefit is also that the warlocks are cheaper, and often the runes of battle spells are better used than smite is, unless your getting desperate later into the game. I think if you have one big melee units or two small ones (sub 300pts of your army worth of melee). I'd take one spirit seer as after your melee unit gets widdles down smite becomes more prominent. If you ahve 500+ pts in melee warlocks, and multiple become a reason option as these melee units can be buffed to give a massive bonus going into the later stages of the game where, while you might miss the smite saving a few points and bring a few extra locks for cheap can be worth it.

Farseer. In my mind i see two, maybe 3 farseers. Guide+Fortune, Doom+Execution+(smite late game), and Guide+Doom. I kind of rank them in that order. After a few games i feel like i either want a back field farseer who is keeping his distances casting guide and protecting himself in side of a fortuned unit. In my book moving any closer to cast doom feels bad. While doom also isn't always good. However, you can make your list use guide really well by taking a really large Scatt Bike or Dark reaper squad (depends on the unit type that is causing your list the most issues. Looking more into that.

Breaking it down more the Guide+Fortune allows you to stack defences and keep a long term on foot far seer pretty relaxed in the back. Potentially this farseer can take the relic wings allowing him to fly around and abuse terrain to fall back to a less effective smite spam state due to lack of good guide targets. Though this guy doesn't really need any mobility as he can just live and die by the protection of the guided unit you bring. I also think if your going to use this, it's good to bring a unit who likes being forwarded to stave off deep strikers. Good candidates to me would be Dark reapers/ Scatt bikes.

Doom+execute. This guy works great even more so when escorted by your hemlocks and crimson hunters, and he is mounted on a bike. He wants to get close and use doom, which lends itself well to also executing stuff or casting smite. Casting execute on units where you can garentee or almost garentee killing a model (1 or 2 wounds a model) will do more than a smite, but if you can't do this smite will always be better. You're also close enough to doom things that might be far back behind enemy lines, and combos with the hemlock/crimson hunter escort who might want to reach back thier and take something out.

Guide+Doom our old bog standard. it's pretty good, but i feel the need to step up put yours line in disarray. Plus you can't guarantee good targets. Looking at many competitive list the best target you can get is a conscript squad which hardly feels worth the price of admission to begin with. The best targets are big expensive death stars, but i'd bank on going Fortune+guide in most competitive games. Simply due to lack of good targets for doom.

Bike or no bike?? I think while you don't always pick your powers when you make your list. You should go into making your list with a good idea of what powers you want to use. Bikes work well on farseers as late game they can force your opponent to kill your fliers, as a far seer can quite easily keep up with 2 or more fliers and stay well protected. This allows you to skate the sudden death rules a little bit force your opponent to bring your fliers down to win the game, or give up tabling all together. Warlocks can also do this, but the far seer can spam smite will running, and use execute/doom/guide as well. So any farseer won't feel bad on a bike as long as you have fly support, and even with out fly support a single far seer can go toe to toe with several time's his points if played well.

Warlocks on bikes is another question. Doubling the cost of the warlock feels bad, but some spells you want to get close. You're melee units want to get up thier and you will want to be thier to support them. Wave serpents provide a good house foot warlocks allowing them to keep up. A bike lock does ahve the advantage of surviving perils of the warm 2/3rds of the times. In general i would only take a bike lock if you were planning to run Protect/Enhance/Empower as these buffs you'll want to cast at least twice, and your melee units might be way up the map. While also to some extent you might want to cast the inverse of these powers on enemy units and the bike will help you find the range you need. Quicken is best used on a foot lock. Odds are you really only need it turn 1. While casting the negative version of a wartime morty or magnus might be good; it often won't come up a lot, and you'll be trying to cast a difficult spell up against potentially superior enemy psykers.

For both our psykers the bike does has one good use, and i think that's the late game eldar. I think if you have a well built list it's more than likely your warlocks, and farseers will remain alive. Even more so if they were on a bike. In these turn 3s/4s/5s hopping around and harassing with smites becomes a very viable tactic, and snacking objectives with your very mobile characters becomes powerful. This again is compounded if you have flier support as they can interfere with shots, and the more heros you keep alive the more you can dampen the even's ability to remove you off the table. I think any eldar list would do well to have a farseer on bike, and any decently melee focused eldar list should also contain a warlock on bike.

anywho blurb of thoughts on our psykers after two games i had today and yesterday where my farseer and warlocks pretty much single handedly won those games after both armies were widdle to near nothings, and mobility and target massaging were king.

Edit: one more wa4lock consideration is seer council. I don't have my book on hand but if memory serves this stratagem requires a far seer and a warlock. Both getting +1 on thier spells for the turn. This is another mod in the direction of the wa4lock over the spirit seer.

Good summary of farseer.

The best loadout is entirely dependent on army composition.
I think you are undervaluing doom. The fact that it works against any target makes it clear mvp. Dooming big tanks or monsters or titans will guarantee a lot of damage.

I personally run a doom/guide farseer with faulchus wings supporting shadow spectres as that can guide them and doom a deep target, then a second farseer with fortune and doom to support dark reapers/fire support. Second doom is important to me as I rate it high.

A problem I've had with Farseers is that there are only 3 powers that you really want to cast every turn, which means that (without Eldrad) you're paying 100 points for the third power. The new ones are merely fine, with Executioner probably being the best. There's a strong case for Eldrad on this basis alone. Fortune is probably the most skippable depending on your build -- you need a single most scary unit to make it great.

I don't think I'd ever take a Warlock Skyrunner. You take Warlocks for buff powers, and it's just not hard to be within 18" of your own units. If you're wanting to debuff, then just pay 130 more points to get everything else a Hemlock provides along with the debuff power.

I think Farseers can also generally get away with being on foot. They have 24" range on their good powers, Guide and Fortune are buffs, and you generally want to Doom something close to the front because it's best with your short-ranged weapons. There's probably a case for Doom/Executioner on a bike alongside Guide/Fortune on foot, since you can more easily pick targets for Executioner this way.

mmimzie wrote:

Kdash wrote:
So, originally i was thinking Saim-Hann for my webway Spears, but, part of me now things Biel-Tan is the way to go..

You are thinking about stuff wrong. Biel-tan's stratagem gives you +2 to you're charge. Saim-Hann's give your spears +6 to thier charge, as it allows your advancing units to charge, and bikes always advance 6, so you get to go 6' closer before you make you're charge..

I think you missed his point in his first sentence. He is talking about deploying via the webway so there will not be any advance available to him....so that is moot.

I could use some thoughts on how to finish a list. I put it up in the army list section but it's also in a spoiler below. Essentially I have 160ish points to spend on something to fit into a mech list. Not enough for a unit in a transport so it needs to be something that can keep itself safe and is fast. Aspect Warriors would be preferred and a CC unit would nice. I'm actually finding it a tough choice between Shining Spears and Striking Scorpions lol.

I like the Hawks + Spiders or go for 8 spiders.

The spiders are big enough unit with 8 to tie up something in hth...yet tanky enough to be a survivable target.

I like MSU for the most part so I would still go Hawks and Spiders. At this point the spiders will die but they are the first wave to tie up something for your WS strike force.