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Spectres were blatantly undercosted. They went from "no-brainer in a top tournament list" to just good.

Heavy flamer is a standard 17 points. Concentrated beam is worth an extra 8. So that's 8 points for a T3/1W model that also has Fly, -1, 3+, and morale reduction. With their mobility, most of the time they will be -2 to hit with a 2+ save. That's 3 tanks firing 9 heavy Bolters to kill 1 Spectre, slightly more with reroll 1's. Or 72 lasgun shots. Or 27 bolter shots.

Spectres will be fine.

xmbk wrote:
Spectres were blatantly undercosted. They went from "no-brainer in a top tournament list" to just good.

Heavy flamer is a standard 17 points. Concentrated beam is worth an extra 8. So that's 8 points for a T3/1W model that also has Fly, -1, 3+, and morale reduction. With their mobility, most of the time they will be -2 to hit with a 2+ save. That's 3 tanks firing 9 heavy Bolters to kill 1 Spectre, slightly more with reroll 1's. Or 72 lasgun shots. Or 27 bolter shots.

Spectres will be fine.

This is a terrible way to think about point costs. It makes absolutely no sense to separate weapons from platforms in this way.

You're also being really optimistic about the situations Spectres will find themselves in. Yes, Alatoic Spectres are at -2 to hit and have 2+ saves when in cover and farther than 12" from the enemy. Of course, they have heavy flamers so they want to be close, and that also makes it hard to be in cover and outside 12". Even in cover they're very vulnerable to deep strikers, CC, and Smite (and other sources of mortal wounds that don't roll to hit). Without Alatoic, they're very vulnerable to long-range shooting -- mortar teams are happy to shoot non-Alatoic Spectres even in cover.

Some examples of things that just wreck Alatoic Spectres, even in cover:
A Hemlock can hit them wherever they are, and if outside of Deny range expects to kill about 150 points' worth.
Celestine can move 24", shoot them with a heavy flamer, and then charge (from let's say ~7" away so that she only takes a little Overwatch but is still reliably getting in) and expects to kill 120 points' worth.
An Eversor Assassin deep strikes in, kills 0.8 Spectres with shooting, and then very reliably gets into CC and kills another 3 (again ~120 points' worth, from a 70 point model).
Even with their price increases, a plasma Scion Command Squad just about makes back its cost when shooting them.
Obliterators put out about the same damage as a Scion squad and will commonly have a couple buffs available. Likewise a Chaos Terminator bomb.

Most armies have pretty popular options that are really good against them. It's true, they were too good. They were a staple of Craftworld-based Ynnari tournament lists. It's not actually clear if they were still nearly as good as non-Ynnari or as Ynnari post-nerf, but regardless it seems unlikely that they needed a 43% price increase.

How do we feel about wraithseers now? For a mere 12 points more than than a wraithlord with a sword, we get a wraithlord with a 5++ with the ability to give themselves (or another wraith unit) a 6+++ and 2 additional wounds and a better version of the sword. Plus the ability to equip them with a slightly reduced-in-points D-Cannon. Not too shabby.

However, I'm noticing it is still missing the "Wraith Construct" keyword, so it isn't affected by strategems or the psytronome from the craftworlds codex.

EDIT: They can't give themselves a 6+++.

Raulengrin wrote:
How do we feel about wraithseers now? For a mere 12 points more than than a wraithlord with a sword, we get a wraithlord with a 5++ with the ability to give themselves (or another wraith unit) a 6+++ and 2 additional wounds and a better version of the sword. Plus the ability to equip them with a slightly reduced-in-points D-Cannon. Not too shabby.

However, I'm noticing it is still missing the "Wraith Construct" keyword, so it isn't affected by strategems or the psytronome from the craftworlds codex.

EDIT: They can't give themselves a 6+++.

But they are T7 still. Compared to T8 for the Wraithlord. Or did they upgrade the Wraithseer too?

Heavy Flamers have a standard 17-point cost, across all lists.

And it's not being optimistic, it's my experience. It's 8th edition, anything the other guy wants dead will die. But due to their mobility, it's easy to keep Spectres from being a prime target. Not hard at all to stay on the outskirts and use their firepower to remove units that pose a threat. I don't think using Celestine as an example is very useful. I'll gladly sacrifice a unit of Spectres to get her out of position. As an Eldar player, you should not be surrendering disadvantageous deepstrikes. We control that phase.

As for Hemlocks, they are still right there with Reapers as our most undercosted units. It's not just Spectres that should fear them.

Weidekuh wrote:

Raulengrin wrote:
How do we feel about wraithseers now? For a mere 12 points more than than a wraithlord with a sword, we get a wraithlord with a 5++ with the ability to give themselves (or another wraith unit) a 6+++ and 2 additional wounds and a better version of the sword. Plus the ability to equip them with a slightly reduced-in-points D-Cannon. Not too shabby.

However, I'm noticing it is still missing the "Wraith Construct" keyword, so it isn't affected by strategems or the psytronome from the craftworlds codex.

EDIT: They can't give themselves a 6+++.

But they are T7 still. Compared to T8 for the Wraithlord. Or did they upgrade the Wraithseer too?

Oh, yeah. I'm so used to wraithlords being t8 I forgot that brief period they for some reason stopped being the toughest thing in the galaxy. Hope they get updated. Some day.

xmbk wrote:
Heavy Flamers have a standard 17-point cost, across all lists.

So? It's still not at all reasonable to try to come up with a balanced point cost for a unit by trying to figure out what its weapons and bodies should be priced separately. For a couple reasons, GW has written the codices with separated costs, but even they realize that you can't, like, apply a formula to these things separately. They just give weapons uniform costs and then give bodies wildly different costs to make up for that -- a Dark Reaper body is cheaper than a Guardian body, for example.

And it's not being optimistic, it's my experience. It's 8th edition, anything the other guy wants dead will die. But due to their mobility, it's easy to keep Spectres from being a prime target. Not hard at all to stay on the outskirts and use their firepower to remove units that pose a threat. I don't think using Celestine as an example is very useful. I'll gladly sacrifice a unit of Spectres to get her out of position. As an Eldar player, you should not be surrendering disadvantageous deepstrikes. We control that phase.

As for Hemlocks, they are still right there with Reapers as our most undercosted units. It's not just Spectres that should fear them.

I don't think this makes much sense. If anything the other guy wants dead will die, then you don't want to be paying a huge premium for offense on a relatively fragile unit. If your Spectres are staying on the outskirts then you're not getting much out of their flamers. If they're on the outskirts then how are you protecting them from deep strikers? What is it that "distracting" Celestine by giving up a ton of points is buying you? Why not just spend those points on more of the thing that you're actually concerned about her interfering with?

xmbk wrote:
Spectres were blatantly undercosted. They went from "no-brainer in a top tournament list" to just good.

Heavy flamer is a standard 17 points. Concentrated beam is worth an extra 8. So that's 8 points for a T3/1W model that also has Fly, -1, 3+, and morale reduction. With their mobility, most of the time they will be -2 to hit with a 2+ save. That's 3 tanks firing 9 heavy Bolters to kill 1 Spectre, slightly more with reroll 1's. Or 72 lasgun shots. Or 27 bolter shots.

Spectres will be fine.

Your point comparison only makes sense if Spectres could fire both modes of their gun at once. You get a gun with two functions, but it can only ever serve as one of them at any given time.

 Fafnir wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Spectres were blatantly undercosted. They went from "no-brainer in a top tournament list" to just good.

Heavy flamer is a standard 17 points. Concentrated beam is worth an extra 8. So that's 8 points for a T3/1W model that also has Fly, -1, 3+, and morale reduction. With their mobility, most of the time they will be -2 to hit with a 2+ save. That's 3 tanks firing 9 heavy Bolters to kill 1 Spectre, slightly more with reroll 1's. Or 72 lasgun shots. Or 27 bolter shots.

Spectres will be fine.

Your point comparison only makes sense if Spectres could fire both modes of their gun at once. You get a gun with two functions, but it can only ever serve as one of them at any given time.

But go gotta pay a premium for the flexibility, or would you pay the same for a simple heavy flamer and a heavy flamer which can charge its optimum target if needed?

Another topic: in my list https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/745177.page I have been told to lack anti-tank. I'm wondering if changing my Sword+Shield Wraithknight (I know I know, casual fodder) and Hemlock for a Heavy Wraithcannon Wraithknight and Crimson Hunter would help me.
Which option sounds better?
It's a casual list but looking for some competitiveness.

 DanielFM wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Spectres were blatantly undercosted. They went from "no-brainer in a top tournament list" to just good.

Heavy flamer is a standard 17 points. Concentrated beam is worth an extra 8. So that's 8 points for a T3/1W model that also has Fly, -1, 3+, and morale reduction. With their mobility, most of the time they will be -2 to hit with a 2+ save. That's 3 tanks firing 9 heavy Bolters to kill 1 Spectre, slightly more with reroll 1's. Or 72 lasgun shots. Or 27 bolter shots.

Spectres will be fine.

Your point comparison only makes sense if Spectres could fire both modes of their gun at once. You get a gun with two functions, but it can only ever serve as one of them at any given time.

But go gotta pay a premium for the flexibility, or would you pay the same for a simple heavy flamer and a heavy flamer which can charge its optimum target if needed?

Another topic: in my list https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/745177.page I have been told to lack anti-tank. I'm wondering if changing my Sword+Shield Wraithknight (I know I know, casual fodder) and Hemlock for a Heavy Wraithcannon Wraithknight and Crimson Hunter would help me.
Which option sounds better?
It's a casual list but looking for some competitiveness.

Its more like a HF or a always rend shuriken cannon.....

They needed to go up honestly, they were extremely good for what you got and the fact that you can use stratagems on them was insane, i'm glad you can, and i still love them as a unit and would still take 1 unit of them, tho 10pts might have been to much, 7pts would have been more reasonable increase.

An increase of up to 5 points would have been reasonable. But anything more than that would be ridiculous, and done with the intent of killing the unit rather than balancing it.

This myth that Spectres are fragile needs to go away. They are not.

No, you don't have to be able to fire both modes at once to say it's fair to pay a premium for flexibility.

Can't protect from deepstrike on the perimeter? Huh? Trust me, it's easy. Had a tournament game last week where my opponent delayed Obliterators for turn because they had nowhere to go, still had to drop them suboptimally. Big Reaper unit with Farseer changes the whole dynamic.

Name the Elite unit that is better.

As far as the Elites slot goes, prior to the nerf, you can't really name much in competition because the Eldar elite units are surprisingly poor. Wraiths and Dragons are solid, albeit in requirement of more support to do their jobs properly, Banshees are overcosted but functional, and Scorpions are just bad.

But within the scope of the entire codex, Dark Reapers, Shining Spears and Hemlocks are all superior units, before the nerf. Spectres were definitely one of the better units in the CWE armoury, but not to any excess compared to the best units in the codex. And while they warranted some cost adjustment, units like Striking Scorpions need to be rewritten entirely to be worth even considering alone, let alone in comparison.

 Fafnir wrote:
As far as the Elites slot goes, prior to the nerf, you can't really name much in competition because the Eldar elite units are surprisingly poor. Wraiths and Dragons are solid, albeit in requirement of more support to do their jobs properly, Banshees are overcosted but functional, and Scorpions are just bad.

But within the scope of the entire codex, Dark Reapers, Shining Spears and Hemlocks are all superior units, before the nerf. Spectres were definitely one of the better units in the CWE armoury, but not to any excess compared to the best units in the codex. And while they warranted some cost adjustment, units like Striking Scorpions need to be rewritten entirely to be worth even considering alone, let alone in comparison.

Completely agree, those three units you listed are the premium units in the Eldar Codex. In isolation, 3 units of 3 spears outperforms 9 spectres (for the same points after CA). However if your list is already built on those three units you listed, you would likely either end up going to 3+ hemlocks, or 3+ units of spears or into the 3rd unit of reapers, at that point you gain flexibility from having spectres.

I think true competitive TAC eldar lists have taken a blow with the spectre nerf, as now it's quite hit or miss whether a good horde list can be dealt with (orks/nids), but I also think it's a fair nerf. Spectres are in the right place at 33 points, they are still an option. Even at 28 points (5 point increase) they would've been a definite take. Now they'll still be better than the majority of the codex, but not better than our premium units. I was running 21 spectres before, now I'll be running 9-10.

The models are also gorgeous!!! My favourite aspect warrior!

Exactly what sad said. Though Hemlocks and Reapers are still the backbone of a top tier Eldar list, with chars. Round out with Spears, maybe a few Spectres. Everything else is inferior.

 Fafnir wrote:
...units like Striking Scorpions need to be rewritten entirely to be worth even considering alone, let alone in comparison.

What did you expect from them? What are they supposed to be? They deepstrike, they are as resilient as you can make them, they get two strength 4 attacks, a fluffy (and useful) bonus when attacking units in cover, and moderately useful Mandiblasters (not worse than previous versions) for a decent price.
What would the needed rewrite feature? Having 4 attacks? Guaranteed charge after deepstrike?
The only thing they really need is ap -1 on their chainswords. But hardly anyone gets this kind of CC weapons.

 DanielFM wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
...units like Striking Scorpions need to be rewritten entirely to be worth even considering alone, let alone in comparison.

What did you expect from them? What are they supposed to be? They deepstrike, they are as resilient as you can make them, they get two strength 4 attacks, a fluffy (and useful) bonus when attacking units in cover, and moderately useful Mandiblasters (not worse than previous versions) for a decent price.
What would the needed rewrite feature? Having 4 attacks? Guaranteed charge after deepstrike?
The only thing they really need is ap -1 on their chainswords. But hardly anyone gets this kind of CC weapons.

2 Strength 4 attacks is completely pathetic for what is meant to be a dedicated CC unit IMO. Barely scratches the paint on many things and if the enemy is decent at striking back, they have no hope. For me, if they really need something its more CC output. The claw is ok but no one wants a unit simply for exarch delivery.

They also lost their ability to stalk though cover and gain better bonuses from it. T3 with a 3+ save isn't that durable (no matter how many people say it is), and I don't see them often making it to close combat unless they manage to make their initial 9 inch charge. While that's not a deal breaker, I do certainly miss that rule compared to what they had in 7th, was nice and fluffy having to hug the cover and stalk on your way to make your assault. The bonus to hit enemies in cover seems arbitrary and strange to me by comparison.

So what's CWE's best anti-infantry/anti-horde options, particularly in dealing with MEQ toughness 4 type of units like Genestealers and Necron Warriors?

Spartacus wrote:

 DanielFM wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
...units like Striking Scorpions need to be rewritten entirely to be worth even considering alone, let alone in comparison.

What did you expect from them? What are they supposed to be? They deepstrike, they are as resilient as you can make them, they get two strength 4 attacks, a fluffy (and useful) bonus when attacking units in cover, and moderately useful Mandiblasters (not worse than previous versions) for a decent price.
What would the needed rewrite feature? Having 4 attacks? Guaranteed charge after deepstrike?
The only thing they really need is ap -1 on their chainswords. But hardly anyone gets this kind of CC weapons.

2 Strength 4 attacks is completely pathetic for what is meant to be a dedicated CC unit IMO. Barely scratches the paint on many things and if the enemy is decent at striking back, they have no hope. For me, if they really need something its more CC output. The claw is ok but no one wants a unit simply for exarch delivery.

They also lost their ability to stalk though cover and gain better bonuses from it. T3 with a 3+ save isn't that durable (no matter how many people say it is), and I don't see them often making it to close combat unless they manage to make their initial 9 inch charge. While that's not a deal breaker, I do certainly miss that rule compared to what they had in 7th, was nice and fluffy having to hug the cover and stalk on your way to make your assault. The bonus to hit enemies in cover seems arbitrary and strange to me by comparison.

You could give them 3 attacks, tops, by making Scorpion Chainswords +1 attack. Any more and you need special rules to justify non superhuman models with that many attacks IMHO.
Why would you need to stalk through cover on your way when you can pop right besides your enemy? Having +1 to cover sabes in a 3+ save model means a 1+ save, which appears to go against current GW design.
+1 to hit against enemies in cover not only makes sense (have you played one of the Batman: Arkham games? See how a stalker can turn the environment against you) but it's also functionally interesting by giving SS a role: dislodging backfield units from cover. Ok, they could be more efficient at it, but they are far from the useless disaster you make them appear to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
So what's CWE's best anti-infantry/anti-horde options, particularly in dealing with MEQ toughness 4 type of units like Genestealers and Necron Warriors?

D-scythe Wraithguard sounds pretty sweet at murdering the latter. Dark Reapers can do the same from affar. Ghostsword Wraithblades munch them in CC if you can get them there.
Dispersed Fire Prism is also very efficient at that.
People will say Shining Spears, but as I'm tired of reading it again and again (plus their models are awful) I wanted to give other choices.

I had those units in mind as well, glad someone else was having the same thought. Shining Spears seem good but I don't exactly see how they're great anti-horde? Sure they have Twin Shuriken Catapults and 2 attacks a piece but is that really enough to compete with the other mentioned units? Plus as someone considering going Alaitoc, I'm not sure how good Shining Spears would be in that Craftworld (although I supposed the -1 to hit as they're riding up the field is a nice bonus).

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
So what's CWE's best anti-infantry/anti-horde options, particularly in dealing with MEQ toughness 4 type of units like Genestealers and Necron Warriors?

Tempest launchers on multiple Dark Reaper exarchs. I like to bring four or five, one unit of 5 regular reapers + exarch for buffing/forewarned, the rest minsized to hide out of LoS and shoot the tempest.

Scorpions need +1 attack and -1AP to come close to reaching their point value.

 Fafnir wrote:
Scorpions need +1 attack and -1AP to come close to reaching their point value.

I'd be happy to settle on AP -1 melee as and extra attack seems a bit much. Now, if you give them an extra attack on a modified/unmodified 6 then that could be argued. They do deepstrike after all.

 Fafnir wrote:
Scorpions need +1 attack and -1AP to come close to reaching their point value.

This. Just compare them to Harlequins if you don’t agree. 4 attacks base, 4+ invuln, can be kitted with anti tank weapons, special cc weapons, or left bare bones for mulching hordes.

Am I missing something in that the Revenant increased by 800 pts while the Phantom stayed the same? Now the Phantom is twice as good as the Revenant but only about 400 pts more. Is this clear oversight or a plot to sell more big titans?

Likely the second part. You can write the changes done to anything from Forgeworld as being completely out of left field and done entirely out of hand.

If anything, GW's crazy points inflation of FW products only serves to undermine the legitimacy of the good changes.

Dionysodorus wrote:Some examples of things that just wreck Alatoic Spectres, even in cover:

Auto-hitting eldar jet, top tier melee units and Smite can kill a unit which relies on protection from shooting. That's not a surprise and probably is how game is supposed to work.

Which is fine. The problem is that now the return for killing a squad is so much higher, and a list with them can do less to defend them with good counterplay since they'll have less resources available for it.

 Asmodas wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Scorpions need +1 attack and -1AP to come close to reaching their point value.

This. Just compare them to Harlequins if you don’t agree. 4 attacks base, 4+ invuln, can be kitted with anti tank weapons, special cc weapons, or left bare bones for mulching hordes.

An Eldar with 4 attacks with no rules to justify it is too much. Never made sense to me, and it would make no sense for SS either.
4+ invulnerable is the same as 3+ against AP 0 and -1, and worse if in cover. It's not that superior.
Plus Mandiblasters. Plus Deepstrike.
They are different enough that a direct comparison is kind of moot.

I think 3 attacks at S4 for Scorpions would be fair enough. Often im finding my Scorpions and Banshees bounce off their targets unless im buffing with CP's/Powers or flying an Autarch nearby (and sometimes that isn't enough to help them do their jobs). I also think Mandiblasters should also be reworked to be wound on 4+ (vs everything) rather than mortal wound on 6+ (vs infantry).

Banshees should be our standard combat can openers and Scorpions our standard combat horde butchers but currently neither particularly shine in these roles.