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Has anyone found success with the new Fire Prisms? Do they often hold up for long enough to make their points back?

Also with two Fire Prisms using Linked Fire are you forced to fire both salvos for both Prisms at the same target? (Assuming you're declaring Linked Fire before firing the first salvo)

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
Has anyone found success with the new Fire Prisms? Do they often hold up for long enough to make their points back?

Also with two Fire Prisms using Linked Fire are you forced to fire both salvos for both Prisms at the same target? (Assuming you're declaring Linked Fire before firing the first salvo)

Yes, they both have to target the same unit.

Fire Prisms are a nice distraction unit, and if they survive, give elites and vehicles a hard time.

 Zuri Prime wrote:

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
Has anyone found success with the new Fire Prisms? Do they often hold up for long enough to make their points back?

Also with two Fire Prisms using Linked Fire are you forced to fire both salvos for both Prisms at the same target? (Assuming you're declaring Linked Fire before firing the first salvo)

Yes, they both have to target the same unit.

Fire Prisms are a nice distraction unit, and if they survive, give elites and vehicles a hard time.

I haven't tried the prisms yet, but this is my big issue with it. Yes, I can spend a CP every turn to kill the crap out of something, but it can only be that one thing.

In my local meta where tournament rounds seldom make it past turn 3 (because of time limits, not tabling), that's just not enough widespread damaging power.

I think your local meta definitely affects the effectiveness of Linked Fire if your opponents typically field many units as opposed to more elite armies/large single blobs of units. Being basically limited to deleting one unit a turn is certainly a reason to be wary, but realistically are you typically spreading your fire between your Prisms or focusing down one unit? I guess it depends on how you play or the situation but if it's usually the latter then I think being locked into one unit isn't as bad as you think.

The mathhammer's been saying, outside Linked Fire at least, other options will outperform the Prism when firing at MEQs or hard targets. So the Prism, according to the numbers at least, only makes sense if you factor in the opportunity to hurt either.

That's just the mathhammer, though. Haven't fielded one enough yet to really know.

Bharring wrote:
The mathhammer's been saying, outside Linked Fire at least, other options will outperform the Prism when firing at MEQs or hard targets. So the Prism, according to the numbers at least, only makes sense if you factor in the opportunity to hurt either.

That's just the mathhammer, though. Haven't fielded one enough yet to really know.

True, there are better options out the against vehicles and MEQs when you're talking about a lone Prism. However, I don't think people would take just one Prism for their lists. If they take Fire Prisms, they take it for Linked Fire and at that point you're always taking 2. With 2 Prisms and Linked Fire they'd probably outperform most units against MEQs and vehicles.

So not sure if this was discussed earlier, but with Shadow Spectres getting hit with the nerfstick, what types of "competitive" lists are looking good now? Still reaper spam?

Wayniac wrote:
So not sure if this was discussed earlier, but with Shadow Spectres getting hit with the nerfstick, what types of "competitive" lists are looking good now? Still reaper spam?

I still plan on running them. They are now only slightly overpriced as opposed to criminally cheap. Why not take them? They still fill a useful role in Alaitoc lists.

Hey all, I'd like to thank everyone who contributes here regularly. This is a great thread, and has really helped me get a handle on the new codex. I am more excited to play a Craftworld army than I have been in a long time. Anyway, I'd like to ask for a little advice. My list is spoilered below:



So basically, the list aims to max out on antihorde options at 1500 while also giving me the tools to deal with heavier things. Farseer typically takes Doom and something else (Fortune/Guide) and starts the game in the Serpent with the Reapers. The DAs catch a ride in the other serpent, and typically stay there until they are needed. I start the game with the Hawks, Autarch, Spiders and Guardians in reserve (1 CP to webway the Guardians into position). The Warlock takes Protect/Jinx and hides for the first turn.

I chose the Biel Tan attribute because my Craftworld color scheme is predominantly green and yellow, but I am really liking the attribute. Between the bikes, guardians, DAs, wave serpents and miscellaneous pistols and catapults, I have so much shuriken shooting that it gets a little ridiculous. The guardians dropping in and shooting at a Doomed target, with re-roll 1s from Biel Tan, is really quite nasty. If there is a good target for their shooting, I can also drop the Hawks in at the same time right behind them, since they are 24" range, and together they can really put the hurt on most light infantry (or even heavy infantry with the number of re-rolls and rends you can get, plus add Doom/Jinx if you really need something to die). Hordes are a big issue in my meta (Guard, GSC, Cultist-heavy CSM and Nids are all popular), so this set-up really works pretty well. Most of the army flies, too, so it is fairly easy to disengage if you do get charged by something.

The issue I am having is the Autarch. I love the model, but he is just not doing much here. Most of the army natively has re-roll 1s due to the Biel Tan attribute, which means he pretty much only affects Reapers, Spiders and Hawks. While re-roll 1s is nice to have on these models, it is just not really worth 100+ points (plus his 6" range pistol adds nothing when he deep strikes in 9" away). Nor is he much of a close combat threat - certainly not enough to dissuade an assault on my aspect warriors by anything moderately melee-oriented. So what to replace him with?

I do not have any Shining Spears or Hemlocks, although I have been considering proxying Harlequin skyweavers as Shining Spears, as I have 6 of those painted up. Options currently under consideration are Shadow Spectres (purchased from Forge World pre-nerf, and still haven't made it here in the mail ), another Farseer (perhaps on a bike), a foot Warlock, a Spiritseer, or perhaps a Vyper or War Walker. I also have Fire Dragons, Wraithblades and Banshees, but none of those really seem that great right now (not to mention they compete for a slot in the Serpents). Any thoughts?

Bharring wrote:
The mathhammer's been saying, outside Linked Fire at least, other options will outperform the Prism when firing at MEQs or hard targets. So the Prism, according to the numbers at least, only makes sense if you factor in the opportunity to hurt either.

That's just the mathhammer, though. Haven't fielded one enough yet to really know.

Can you share what the better options are over a lone Prism for similar costs? Genuinely curious whats been hashed out without having to go back through all the pages of this thread.

EDIT TO ADD: By points, I don't mean PPW or whatever, but literally filling the 150-165 slot.

I'm going to go out on a fairly safe limb and guess Dark Reapers.

Dark Reapers.

Fafnir wrote:I'm going to go out on a fairly safe limb and guess Dark Reapers.

DarknessEternal wrote:Dark Reapers.

Thanks!

I run a list of basically grav tanks and chatacters for all of my games in 8th so far, as a counter to the horde/anti-horde meta. Always run 3 fire prisms.

Dark reapers are great for the points, but in the context of my lists they would instantly be targets for all the assault cannons, heavy bolters and small arms. So would defeat the whole strategy.

I dont usually run into the issue of massive overkill when using the stratagem. Statistically I think 2 linked prisims should just kill about 1 Russ, Razorback or Predator per turn. Obviously it varies depending on the initial roll for number of hits and damage, so youll need to develop some judgement based on the performance of the initial Fire Prism shots. If you rolled well, alls good. If you didnt, maybe hit the tank with something else first. If you rolled really badly, link in the 3rd Fire Prism.

So I had a game vs Nids. Opponent has been a friend since 2nd ed.

Some takeaways. 2000 points.

Playing all Ulthwe is a drag. He reminded me of my FNP rolls more than I did and contributed to a much longer game. I will try not to take Ulthwe again except when I plan on using black guardians with Storm Guardians.

With his horde and my horde it took us 3.5+ hours to finish 5 rounds ...and the last 2 went really fast. I almost had him tabled.

He was winning on VPs til the 5th round when I took the lead 11 to 6.

Storm Guardians sitiing behind Dire Avengers was the antidote to Genestealer rush. Between Overwatch and the Black Guardian+Disdain+ Enhance (no doom....it was his turn) The stealers fate were sealed.

The Hive Guard with the no LOS weapon with -2 AP and d3 wounds plus biovore battery were BRUTAL on my Dark Reaper squads.

The Wave Serpents ruled the day! 2 of the 4 survived.
ofc Wraithguard kill the most.

My psychis sucked badly til the last 2 turns. We had 3 perils of the warp between us, even with rerolls.

Doom ofc was the game changer when I got it off the 2 times.

He played all Behemoth btw. I was more scared of the Nids stuff I read on the forums than what he presented on the battlefield.

It was a nasty fight that wasn't decided til I removed all his big bugs. I made so many first turn mistakes I thought the game was over but rebounded by turn 2.

I won the roll but let him take first turn. Turned out to be a good move despite my poor moves after he took out my main Wave Serpent on his opening turn.

 admironheart wrote:
So I had a game vs Nids. Opponent has been a friend since 2nd ed.

Playing all Ulthwe is a drag. He reminded me of my FNP rolls more than I did and contributed to a much longer game. I will try not to take Ulthwe again except when I plan on using black guardians with Storm Guardians.

Figured Ulthwe would be the easiest to play. Everything has 6+ FnP unless it already has a better one. Doesn't seem hard to forget lol.

Though, yes, it is a lot of picking up dice and rolling again.

 Marius Xerxes wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The mathhammer's been saying, outside Linked Fire at least, other options will outperform the Prism when firing at MEQs or hard targets. So the Prism, according to the numbers at least, only makes sense if you factor in the opportunity to hurt either.

That's just the mathhammer, though. Haven't fielded one enough yet to really know.

Can you share what the better options are over a lone Prism for similar costs? Genuinely curious whats been hashed out without having to go back through all the pages of this thread.

EDIT TO ADD: By points, I don't mean PPW or whatever, but literally filling the 150-165 slot.

The most comparable thing is a Crimson Hunter.

Even when using linked fire, a Prism only does a little bit better than a Hunter vs T7 3+. Without linked fire the Hunter is much better, and is even a bit better against T8 3+. The Hunter also gets a bonus vs things with Fly. The Hunter is even ~80% as good as the Prism against MEQs. At the same time, the Hunter is a lot more durable against just about everything and still hits on a 3+ after moving.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Marius Xerxes wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The mathhammer's been saying, outside Linked Fire at least, other options will outperform the Prism when firing at MEQs or hard targets. So the Prism, according to the numbers at least, only makes sense if you factor in the opportunity to hurt either.

That's just the mathhammer, though. Haven't fielded one enough yet to really know.

Can you share what the better options are over a lone Prism for similar costs? Genuinely curious whats been hashed out without having to go back through all the pages of this thread.

EDIT TO ADD: By points, I don't mean PPW or whatever, but literally filling the 150-165 slot.

The most comparable thing is a Crimson Hunter.

Even when using linked fire, a Prism only does a little bit better than a Hunter vs T7 3+. Without linked fire the Hunter is much better, and is even a bit better against T8 3+. The Hunter also gets a bonus vs things with Fly. The Hunter is even ~80% as good as the Prism against MEQs. At the same time, the Hunter is a lot more durable against just about everything and still hits on a 3+ after moving.

Yeah I was doing some reading last night and came to the same conclusion. Good to know I was on the right track with that.

I went ahead and found the extra points to up it to an Exarch for the re-roll 1's to squeeze into my list I want to try.

So with a few complaint threads about elder. Is this just normal or do you find in your games players go away from the match thinking that the Eldar are OP or are they generally well received?

I have almost tabled most of my opponents yet lost several of those games. I have yet to be tabled or have less units than my opponent even when I lose.

With that said I have NOT had any poor reactions to my Eldar Lists.

The only unit that I can vaguely tell that my opponents are annoyed with is how tough Wave Serpent spam can be.

(The lists with more than 2 WS are strictly due to having way too many MSUs and I need to lessen my drop count for first turn)

 admironheart wrote:
So with a few complaint threads about elder. Is this just normal or do you find in your games players go away from the match thinking that the Eldar are OP or are they generally well received?

I have almost tabled most of my opponents yet lost several of those games. I have yet to be tabled or have less units than my opponent even when I lose.

With that said I have NOT had any poor reactions to my Eldar Lists.

The only unit that I can vaguely tell that my opponents are annoyed with is how tough Wave Serpent spam can be.

Generally well received. There's a bit of grumbling at the cheap + powerful stratagems, (20x 4++, -1 to hit, deepstriking guardians for 3 cp, or simply linked fire), and a little flow over from previous editions. Personally, I don't run the cheesiest lists, and our meta has seen a fair share of baneblades, knights, and other "fething *******" units, so it's fine.

I've found we're strong, can be competitive, however if you avoid spamming reapers and play with grace, no-one cares.

 Puganaut wrote:

Generally well received. There's a bit of grumbling at the cheap + powerful stratagems, (20x 4++, -1 to hit, deepstriking guardians for 3 cp, or simply linked fire),

They can't do that for 3cp.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Puganaut wrote:

Generally well received. There's a bit of grumbling at the cheap + powerful stratagems, (20x 4++, -1 to hit, deepstriking guardians for 3 cp, or simply linked fire),

They can't do that for 3cp.

Would be 4cp, yeah - or 2cp and a psychic power.

Yeah my bad, got scamaz'd by another eldar player recently.

Anyways, we have some cheap and really worthwhile stratagems, that's been the only point of rage/discontent I've seen.

The Lighning reflexes stratagem is particularly reviled it would seem.

I think theres something psychological about modifying your opponents to hit rolls. They feel helpless when they cant hit the perfidious eldar as often, even though something like 'gain a 4++' is actually better at mitigating damage.

I may have gone crazy, but I'm considering taking a warlock conclave.

I wanted to try and do something interesting with Ulthwe as they seem the most boring Craftworld to build a list around.

I'm thinking:

Eldrad
4x Warlocks in a conclave

With the seer council stratagem for 1CP on these two units you can get +1 to cast on 5 psy powers. The concordance of power strat may also be handy for 36" range debuffs.

The obvious problem is that the warlocks die to a stiff breeze. They will need to start in a Waveserpent (not really a tax as serpents are so good), and need to try and hide out of line of sight. At 120pts it won't hurt too much when they get blown away.

Anyone had any luck with the conclave? I think a unit of 2 for 60pts, hiding at the back doing 36" range Jinx is decent, but I'm not sure about bigger units.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I may have

Anyone had any luck with the conclave?

I ONLY take a conclave of 2. But I take it in every list !!! It works wonders. My opponents have yet to target them as the Reapers and such seem more important to them.

The ability to cast 36" or get +1 is very helpful on a unit that can pick which of 2 powers is the preferred choice for that round. 1 Warlock can never be as useful or even as resilient as long as there is LOS blocking terrain to hide in.

That said Quicken is obvious on them. I like Conceal for nearby units. However after my last game I am thinking more about a second Protect/Jinx to get both off the same turn and making the other power Enhance. I only use Enhance once or twice a game and only on my 105 point Storm Guardian anti CC unit to charge and slaughter those that get in my gunline.

A conclave of 4 with Protect and Quicken has the option to do any combination of 2 of the 4 powers (or smite) which I quite like.

I like enhance for shining spears.

 admironheart wrote:
So with a few complaint threads about elder. Is this just normal or do you find in your games players go away from the match thinking that the Eldar are OP or are they generally well received?

I have almost tabled most of my opponents yet lost several of those games. I have yet to be tabled or have less units than my opponent even when I lose.

With that said I have NOT had any poor reactions to my Eldar Lists.

The only unit that I can vaguely tell that my opponents are annoyed with is how tough Wave Serpent spam can be.

(The lists with more than 2 WS are strictly due to having way too many MSUs and I need to lessen my drop count for first turn)

Overall I think the major complaints I've had from my playgroup is the stratagems - they tend to take units that are solid and turn them into game changers and I think that can be frustrating. That and being a Ynnari player there's some grumbling about using CWE Stratagems on Ynnari units. All that said my play group is pretty competitive (I routinely play against Bobby G Razorback lists and Primarch + Knight set ups) so its mostly good nature'd and then spending time figuring out how to counter play it. I do currently have the longest win streak at the club so there's also some desire to boot off the king of the hill.

king of the hill for the rest of 2017! go go go my man!

Has anyone got much experience with Saim-Hann?

I feel like an outrider detachment of something like:
Autarch Skyrunner w/novalance
Vypers: 2x bright lance + cannon
Vypers: 2x bright lance + cannon
Windriders: 3x shuri cannon

Maybe chuck in a farseer skyrunner for survivability, but for under 500 points that's a surprisingly durable, mobile and heavy-hitting little detachment without using spears. Is it competitive at all?