Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Lithanial wrote:

Option 2

Miss out on being a "craftworlds" detachment and add a Harlequin Troupe, possibly with Shadowseer. I'd get my CP and keep the intent of the force but if i'm assessing this option correctly I believe i lose out on objective secured from my Guardian Squads as well as any Craftworld trait. This feels like something I could live with, especially since any Harlequins keep Rising Crescendo, but could be a pain to be explaining to opponents.

Well, if you did include a Shadowseer and a Troupe they would qualify as a Patrol Detachment. And having them in a seperate detachment would allow the rest of your army to maintain their craftworld traits and ObSec. Unless you can't have another detachment, that would be the way to run Option 2.

Thanks for the input people, it's helped refine my thinking:

@ Karhedron - I steer clear of Avengers in transports mostly due to the points premium over Guardians for what is less firepower. The only exception to this is they make a good replacement for Storm Guardians as 2 small squads so that you double up on the Exarch's and can then shoot & charge for some good combined damage while you blitz onto an objective with Objective Secured backing you up. They do make the better objective holder though being able to go 3+ in cover and with better overwatch and LD to ensure they stick around.

@ admironheart - You pretty much nail why i don't think i need a screen, the rest of the force is more than capable of doing it exactly in the manner you describe. I've not decided on a trait yet but I'm leaning towards Biel-Tan as it's a very Shuriken heavy force, though Ulthwe certainly has it's perks. The one I wouldn't be going for is Alaitoc as i'm going to be down the opponents throat a lot so i won't get the best mileage from it.

@ Goobi2 - That would certainly get me the Harlequins, you are correct, however the objective here is to finish off the Batallion.

I think pooling the thoughts together my best option is actually a 10 man Dire Avenger squad on foot. Unlike a big blob of 20 guardians in the webway the avengers can be a bit more flexible in how i deploy them (webway, upfront screen to a guardian firing line or just chilling in a serpent) and they are not a big points investment so if I do choose to Webway them in to grab an objective, I can afford to wait until turn 2-3 without a big loss in firepower. It also makes the core a nice 1250 point block, leaving plenty of points for all sorts of options in what I attach to it at any given time.

List becomes:

Outrider - Farseer Skyrunner w/ Spear, 2x5 Windrider, 3x Vyper with twin Shuriken Cannon
Batallion - 2x Warlock, 2x10 Guardians w/ Starcannon, 10x Dire Avenger w/ Diresword, 2x Waveserpent w/ Starcannon

Cheers.

What is the point of the wsrlocks. Are you taking them as tax just to get the battlion??

I'd swap out the star cannons for bright lances or even out bright lances on. The voters. You are abit light on anti tank and the star cannons tend to be a none commitment weapon that does multiple different targets okay, but isn't really good at any one.

You might consider droping the hyper in favor of shurican cannon or scatter bikes. A big squad Loves!!! Forewarning alot and will see alot off deep strike units deleted the moment they hit the table. Scatter is my personal preference. Would drop axioms and the need deep strike daemons cold in thier tracks.

Two things I'd consider is if the theme of your force is ruining its function?? Sure you are fast, but why???

"Yeah I'm gonna cuddle you and shoot you with pretty decent weapons HAHa"

Seems alittle eh. I think a melee component like shining spears/wraithblade/storm guardiabs/ striking scorpions or anything really spooky would tie things together nicely. As the other flying units can support your melee components charging threats to your melee unit. A wa4lock council would be a cool self contained melee unit as an option.

The warlocks are support that I would be taking even without the battalion requirements. They will either be going Jinx/Protect so that all that Shuriken fire gets 2 chances at supporting buffs between that and Doom, then there is the chance at making the Vyper squad a 2+ save; alternatively i'll be going for the Mindwar bomb with Embolden/Horrify - they will need to be Warlocks rather than Spiritseers as you need to use the Seer Council stratagem to really add some reliability to that. The leadership bomb would become quite funny if i did add the Harlequins as you'd make the Shadowseer your Warlord and give it the -1LD aura equipment, combo'd with a Hemlock for a rather nasty -3LD bubble that would be quite troublesome and make for an effective hallucinogen launcher.

Star Cannons for Brightlances is one i've been mulling over and it really depends on the other 750 point block as to if i'd do that. Those 750 points will be changing around to add variety in what I play and could be anything from Harlequins with a tonne of Haywire launchers and fusion, a Spirit host of Wraithcannon or maybe a trio of Grav Tanks and an aspect host of Fire Dragons - plenty of ways to address the anti-tank in a good way.

The Harlequins is tempting since they would mix well with the main force, and when 3 skyweavers with 3 haywire cannons, 2 zephyrglaive and a star bolas come in cheaper than 2 Brightlance Warwalkers you could do some nifty things to beef out both the anti-tank and the melee side of things.

Almost a shame i'm painting things up as Iybraesil since a Lugganath force would suit that

I would upgrade the Warlocks to Spiritseers. 10 points for twice as many wounds is a bargain. You get the full-fat version of Smite and you will not go POP to a single perils.

I fully understand why so many people recommend spending the 10 points for a Spiritseer, however I would rather use those 10 points anywhere else in my list if I can. There are several ways to mitigate the perils risk with rerolls, and you have to be in a very bad way not to find a use for Runes of Battle powers before Smite.

You always need 1 warlock for the seer council stratagem.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
You always need 1 warlock for the seer council stratagem.

I'm of a similar view. The warlock powers are a bit too unreliable without it but they let you do some rather good things.

In other news, I've just found out that I would actually have the points to fit one of the most aesthetic vehicles the Eldar have into my list; does anyone have any experience with the Scorpion super-heavy tank?

I have run the Scorpion. I dont think it is quite worth the 700 pts, but it can really dish out some damage.

Stationary it can deal a TON of damage to 1-10 Model units. It isn't great vs Hordes, not that you would shoot at one with this anyway. A Crystal Targeting Matrix can help it move and shoot without penalty, but reduces your effective targeting options.

Moving nets you an invul save (that will degrade once you cant move far enough). A 5 or 6++ save isn't too amazing, but it should offer some protection vs the scary weapons that will target the Scorpion with priority. Spirit Stones are pretty much a must take upgrade, and offer more for their points here than on any Codex vehicle.

If you care to invest Guide into it, a Scorpion skating your backlines shooting across the battlefield can use its range as its primary source of defense, while falling back on the invul. If you don't want to Guide it, you can plop it in a corner using only its range for defense. Have screening units around to keep bad guys away and just delete units at your leisure.

While that all sounds pretty good, for 700 points you can probably do better with codex options. That is roughly 4 Fire Prisms with the same range that can do 8D3 S9 shots vs tanks or elites and 8D6 S6 shots vs hordes. You are less susceptible to overkilling units, lower toughness (but more wounds and reduces effectiveness slower), faster, can cover more objectives, etc.

The Scorpion does receive buffs better, though. And in my games with it, the Scorpion delivered steady devastating blows to the Pesky Tyranids that tried to approach.

Lithanial wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
You always need 1 warlock for the seer council stratagem.

I'm of a similar view. The warlock powers are a bit too unreliable without it but they let you do some rather good things.

In other news, I've just found out that I would actually have the points to fit one of the most aesthetic vehicles the Eldar have into my list; does anyone have any experience with the Scorpion super-heavy tank?

Yep you get what you pay for with the Scorpion I think.

Goobi summed it up, but 2 points from me:

1. Combos fantastically with the stratagems: Forewarned, Lightning reflexes, and Cloudstrike (in some cases)

2. Guide sounds great as a buff for a 700 point shooty unit but remember it hits on 2's until you start to degrade, so all guide will do is allow rerolls of 1 (due to modifiers after rerolls). A cheap Autarch in your gunline will do the same thing. The Farseer can then cast Fortune on it or something else more valuable.

What about the cobra? Stats wise it looks unimpressive but maybe I'm missing something

Thanks for the input, i've been working through the weapon comparisons between the Scorpion and the Cobra and they are both pretty terrifying and should one-shot almost any vehicle or monstrous creature, though the Scorpion looks to have a huge advantage in being able to blow up 10-man squads of any variety as well, so it's got a wider threat profile, albeit at the cost of a 150 point premium. I highly doubt the Scorpion will ever "make it's points back" in a match but it would certainly punch a hole big enough in an opponents force that the rest of the list could exploit for a true sword-wind style assault.

Guide and a CTM seem to be a necessity for either one as you won't want to be hit badly by degradation or people stacking -1 to hits. Feels so odd to catch yourself thinking about a Cobra as the "sensible" moderate option - what do you think the risk would be of a Cobra not having good targets in a game be? At the moment my gut is saying for a take-all-comers list you would pretty much have to go for the Scorpion.

Too bad you can't split the Scorpion's fire across 2 targets, one for each pulsar....

 Trashpanda wrote:
What about the cobra? Stats wise it looks unimpressive but maybe I'm missing something

I would always roll 1 for the D6 shots so its not for me

Also the main turn off I think is the 36" range. A lot of the time these things will want to target the big stuff hiding in the back, with only this much range you'll likely have to shift up a bit, which just makes it that much easier for the enemy to get at your expensive, relatively fragile glass cannon.

Edit:

Guide and a CTM seem to be a necessity for either one as you won't want to be hit badly by degradation or people stacking -1 to hits.

Guide won't help against enemies stacking the -1 modifiers.

Spartacus wrote:
Guide won't help against enemies stacking the -1 modifiers.

You'll have to explain that one to me as it makes no sense. Guide re-rolls failed hit rolls. -1 modifiers modify the roll - the roll fails, you get to reroll?

I get things like -1 modifiers not letting the autarch aura work since you only re-roll "rolls of 1" not "rolls of 2 that got modified to 1" but a fail is a fail right?

EDIT: nvm, found the part in the FAQ's about rerolls

I still don't know how to do the modifiers and rerolls even after readin the FAQ

basicly you just do your rerolls with out modifiers.

Reroll all to hit rolls, but you got -1.

reroll everything that would have missed ignoring your modifiers.

Then pick out the ones that miss due to modifers. Then you're done.

The best way to do it is to roll as if you had no modifiers, reroll fails, then apply modifiers

For example
Let's say you have a Guided unit of War Walkers with Bright lances that moved.
Roll your to hits as if you can hit on 3+ (because they have BS3+), rerolling only 1s and 2s. Once you get your post reroll results, than apply -1.

So basically this means that any 3+ rolls DO NOT get to be rerolled as they technically hit according to the WW BS, but once you reroll the 1s and 2s, you then remove the 3s as fails.

It is written this way to prevent the myriad "reroll 1s" auras from being able to reroll 2s.
Use the same example above, but instead of Guided, we use an Autarch. If modifiers came before rerolls, than all 1s AND 2s rolled would count as 1s and allow the Autarch aura to reroll twice the number of dice than intended.

Honestly, this is one of the few examples of GW writing that give me confidence that they know what they are doing some of the time (and maybe it's the community that twists things out of functionality)

-

 Galef wrote:
The best way to do it is to roll as if you had no modifiers, reroll fails, then apply modifiers

That is how my group does it - which I am rather sure is the correct way.

mmimzie wrote:

Two things I'd consider is if the theme of your force is ruining its function?? Sure you are fast, but why???

"Yeah I'm gonna cuddle you and shoot you with pretty decent weapons HAHa"

It's a relevant advantage if you play for the objectives game like Maelstrom or the ITC.

Has anyone tried webway assault with D-cannon support batteries? Sounds strange but dropping 2 or 3 close to enemy armor seems like a unorthodox tactic that could work. Thoughts?

Also shinning spears with fortune active are insane.

They can't use it.

 jvry8c wrote:
Has anyone tried webway assault with D-cannon support batteries? Sounds strange but dropping 2 or 3 close to enemy armor seems like a unorthodox tactic that could work. Thoughts?

Would be a nice way to get them in range turn 1, but the WW assault requires units to have the <Infantry> keyword, which Support batteries do not have.

And even if they did, you would only be able to drop 1 for 1CP, or 2 for 3CPs because when they are "set up" they become separate units. So while a unit of 3 is technically 1 drop, they would count as separate units and waste CPs for the WW assault.
They would also count as moving, which would be -1 to hit.

You'd be better off dropping WG with wraithcannons.

-

Hey, so I've been in pretty much all the tactica threads now, as I've been flipping between armies, struggling to find the one for me. I though maybe Genestealer Cults suited, but after reading their fluff I don't want anything to do with them haha. I think Eldar might suit instead, as I like speed.

A couple of questions:

1) Are Wraithguard and Wraithlords good? They're my favourite models of the Eldar range
2) Are Dire Avengers good? I much prefer their models to guardians
3) I have no idea where to start with leaders
4) Any tips or general ideas on which units are affective and which I should just stay away from?

Thanks in advance everyone. I've been struggling for a month now to settle on an army :/

 Galef wrote:

 jvry8c wrote:
Has anyone tried webway assault with D-cannon support batteries? Sounds strange but dropping 2 or 3 close to enemy armor seems like a unorthodox tactic that could work. Thoughts?

Would be a nice way to get them in range turn 1, but the WW assault requires units to have the <Infantry> keyword, which Support batteries do not have.

And even if they did, you would only be able to drop 1 for 1CP, or 2 for 3CPs because when they are "set up" they become separate units. So while a unit of 3 is technically 1 drop, they would count as separate units and waste CPs for the WW assault.
They would also count as moving, which would be -1 to hit.

You'd be better off dropping WG with wraithcannons.

-

They are a single unit in terms of list building and deployment, so you’d still be able to deploy a unit of 3 of them as one drop. Similar to how the Tallarn Ambush strat allows you to deep-strike a unit of 3 Leman Russes and 2 infantry units.

Kdash wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 jvry8c wrote:
Has anyone tried webway assault with D-cannon support batteries? Sounds strange but dropping 2 or 3 close to enemy armor seems like a unorthodox tactic that could work. Thoughts?

Would be a nice way to get them in range turn 1, but the WW assault requires units to have the <Infantry> keyword, which Support batteries do not have.

And even if they did, you would only be able to drop 1 for 1CP, or 2 for 3CPs because when they are "set up" they become separate units. So while a unit of 3 is technically 1 drop, they would count as separate units and waste CPs for the WW assault.
They would also count as moving, which would be -1 to hit.

You'd be better off dropping WG with wraithcannons.

-

They are a single unit in terms of list building and deployment, so you’d still be able to deploy a unit of 3 of them as one drop. Similar to how the Tallarn Ambush strat allows you to deep-strike a unit of 3 Leman Russes and 2 infantry units.

i agree it would work, but webway assault is strictly infantry and bikes. the Support batteries are neither. The cloud strike is flying vehicles which the support thing also isn't.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Hey, so I've been in pretty much all the tactica threads now, as I've been flipping between armies, struggling to find the one for me. I though maybe Genestealer Cults suited, but after reading their fluff I don't want anything to do with them haha. I think Eldar might suit instead, as I like speed.

A couple of questions:

1) Are Wraithguard and Wraithlords good? They're my favourite models of the Eldar range
2) Are Dire Avengers good? I much prefer their models to guardians
3) I have no idea where to start with leaders
4) Any tips or general ideas on which units are affective and which I should just stay away from?

Thanks in advance everyone. I've been struggling for a month now to settle on an army :/

welcome farseer. Funny enough i play genestealer cult and eldar. Soon i'll be adding daemons to that mix.My cult mech is near eternally shelved.

1. yeah they are quite decent but require some form of support to get them where they need to go (wraithguard). Or synergy to make them cost effective (wraithlords/wraith blades).


2. Dire avengers are good in that they have more range, but guardians are more cost effective for thier damage out put. Durability wise it's a wash ebtween the two units. So it's really just range over damage output.

3. Farseer. I prefer mine on a bike as late game jetting it around makes tabling you quite difficult if you also have some escort fliers. Autarch next was your warlord. Then spirit host and warlocks based on what is in your list.

4. Most of the stuff in our book is pretty decent. I think the forgeworld stuff as on now everyone considers quite bad for eldar (? i dont use it myself). The tops in my personal order of best units, but most list would be something similar would be: Shining spears >>> Hemlock> Crimson hunter= wave serpents>> Dark reapers. Honestly i think dark reapers are abit over hyped as i think there isn't much they can do that a shining spear/ hemlock/ crimson hunter could do better, but lots of people really really like them so maybe there is something there that i fail to see despite playing them a few times and not liking thier preformance or the math behind them

Just a quick question. I run Dark Eldar and Eldar and was wondering:

Can I use Webway strike for a unit of Wraithguard for 1 CP

then use 3CP on Grotesques and Warriors?

Can't find anything that is stopping me but just wanted to varify.

Thanks.

Incognito15 wrote:
Just a quick question. I run Dark Eldar and Eldar and was wondering:

Can I use Webway strike for a unit of Wraithguard for 1 CP

then use 3CP on Grotesques and Warriors?

Can't find anything that is stopping me but just wanted to varify.

Thanks.

yes they are two different stratagems

 Tiberius501 wrote:

A couple of questions:

1) Are Wraithguard and Wraithlords good? They're my favourite models of the Eldar range
2) Are Dire Avengers good? I much prefer their models to guardians
3) I have no idea where to start with leaders
4) Any tips or general ideas on which units are affective and which I should just stay away from?

1) Wraithguards are great, particularly the shooty variety but the CC Wraithblades can work well too. I nearly always run 2 squads, one with Wraithcannons and the other with D-scythes. They are very short ranged so either need a Wave Serpent or to be deployed using the Webway stratagem. Wraithcannons are the only version that really works well with the Webway as you have to deploy 9" away which means D-scythe units are out of range and Wraithblades only have a 28% chance of making their charge. You can use Quicken to get around this but that is vulnerable to failing your psychic test or your opponent denying the witch. You do not want a 200+ point unit just sitting there because of a bad dice roll. Webway is for Wraithcannons only.

Wraithlords are OK now that they have been boosted to T8. I feel they are outshone in the Heavy slot by Reapers and Fire Prisms but if you like the models, they can be made to work. Best build in my opinion is 2 shuricannons, 2 shuricats and a Glaive. This build can move, then advance and still shoot as all its weapons are assault. It can almost keep up with Wave Serpents if you roll well for your Advcance moves, is fairly cheap, can thin hordes and hits hard enough to make a mess of MEQs etc if it gets to charge.

2) I prefer Avengers to Guardians as I find the extra range and save makes them more versatile. I normally mech them up and hunt for objectives or shred other infantry. Against Doomed targets, their Dire catapults can be very effective. I would probably only use Guardians if I was running a unit of 20 with the webway stratagem. Rangers are also worth using as they are cheapish and long ranged which makes them good for objective camping. They are also useful for screening your more valuable units against enemies who can deep strike.

3) I normally take an Autarch on jetbike as my Warlord for the Path of Command to help regenerate CPs. He is fast enough to move about and buff whichever units need help and with a laser lance, he packs enough punch in CC to deal with small units on his own. I normally run him with the Shimmerplume helm as -1 to hit helps deter shooting and the "Eye on Distant events" Trait so that enemies cannot fire overwatch at him. I normally back him up with a Farseer. Mine is on foot but a jetbike is better. Doom is so good as to be almost mandatory in Eldar lists and your second power can be whatever you choose. I sometimes run a Spiritseer as a cheap 3rd HQ as several of the Runes of Battle powers are quite nice (Protect/Jinx is a favourite of mine). He is only 10 points more than a Warlock, has twice the number of wounds, gets Smite instead of Destructor and can buff your Wraith units.

4) Dark Reapers, Shining Spears, Hemlock Wraithfighters, Crimson Hunters, Wave Serpents and Fire Prisms all seem to punch above their weight in the codex and are worth including. Storm Guardiians are pretty poor. Wraithknights are massively overpriced (which is a shame as they are lovely models but cost at least 100 points too much currently). Swooping Hawks get my vote as the most underrated unit in the Codex but are actually very good. They are cheap, very mobile, can shred light infantry and come with a pile of special rules that can be used to threaten various targets.

 Karhedron wrote:


3) I normally take an Autarch on jetbike as my Warlord for the Path of Command to help regenerate CPs. He is fast enough to move about and buff whichever units need help and with a laser lance, he packs enough punch in CC to deal with small units on his own. I normally run him with the Shimmerplume helm as -1 to hit helps deter shooting and the "Eye on Distant events" Trait so that enemies cannot fire overwatch at him. I normally back him up with a Farseer. Mine is on foot but a jetbike is better. Doom is so good as to be almost mandatory in Eldar lists and your second power can be whatever you choose. I sometimes run a Spiritseer as a cheap 3rd HQ as several of the Runes of Battle powers are quite nice (Protect/Jinx is a favourite of mine). He is only 10 points more than a Warlock, has twice the number of wounds, gets Smite instead of Destructor and can buff your Wraith units.

No need to take the 'Eye on Distant Events' WT for your Autarch, a Banshee Mask does the same thing for free!

Yeah i tend to give my jetbike eldar swiftness instead, so he can still keep up with my flyers and shoot his heavy weapon.