Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins!

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**bullyboy**

mokoshkana wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
I have quite a lot of Eldar but since I don't play Alaitoc or have a single Dark Reaper or Shining Spear, I look forward to seeing the epic nerf those models will receive! It won't affect me at all. However, with recent tournament results I'm sure I'm going to get the eye roll about my army because everyone loves to hate on Eldar.

Wonderful anecdote that really drives the tactical discussion. I greatly appreciate your input

I actually thought the same thing after I wrote this. Was planning for more but had to rush out to work. Probably should have pressed delete rather than submit

**Algelion**

Got a question:

Can Ynnary units use Codex:Craftworlds stratagems?

And can Ynnary(alaitoc) use Seim-han stratagems?

**Ordana**

Algelion wrote:
Got a question:

Can Ynnary units use Codex:Craftworlds stratagems?

And can Ynnary(alaitoc) use Seim-han stratagems?

A Ynnari detachment does not unlock Craftworld Stratagems (because you have models that are not Asuryani)
If you have a 2nd detachment that is pure Craftworld then that would unlock use of the Craftworld Stratagems. (all of them, not just a specific craftworld's)

The stratagems list what their legal target is (mostly Asuryani, <Craftworld> or specific units). So long as you meet these requirements you can use craftworld statagems on Ynnari units.

So you can use 'Lightning fast reactions' on a Ynnari Dark Reaper unit to give the enemy -1 to hit (because they are also still Asuryani)
What you can never do is use a Saim-han stratagem on a unit that does not have <Saim-han> as per the statagem rules.

This is why the common tournament list has an Alaitoc detachment (to unlock stratagems and gain the alaitoc -1 trait) and a Ynnari detachment that has a mix of different <Craftworld> units. Like a Saim-Han Shining Spear unit so they can benefit from the stratagem to charge after advancing.

**Algelion**

Ordana wrote:
Algelion wrote:
Got a question:

Can Ynnary units use Codex:Craftworlds stratagems?

And can Ynnary(alaitoc) use Seim-han stratagems?

A Ynnari detachment does not unlock Craftworld Stratagems (because you have models that are not Asuryani)
If you have a 2nd detachment that is pure Craftworld then that would unlock use of the Craftworld Stratagems. (all of them, not just a specific craftworld's)

The stratagems list what their legal target is (mostly Asuryani, <Craftworld> or specific units). So long as you meet these requirements you can use craftworld statagems on Ynnari units.

So you can use 'Lightning fast reactions' on a Ynnari Dark Reaper unit to give the enemy -1 to hit (because they are also still Asuryani)
What you can never do is use a Saim-han stratagem on a unit that does not have <Saim-han> as per the statagem rules.

This is why the common tournament list has an Alaitoc detachment (to unlock stratagems and gain the alaitoc -1 trait) and a Ynnari detachment that has a mix of different <Craftworld> units. Like a Saim-Han Shining Spear unit so they can benefit from the stratagem to charge after advancing.

Thank you, i think Ynnari still need a nerf.

**zerosignal**

This whole cross-sub-faction stuff is pretty daft, maybe we will see a restriction (which would tone down the whole 'soup' nonsense).

**Shadenuat**

The reason it's that way is because Ynnari do not have their own codex, no stratagems, wargear or anything of that of their own. They are a cross-soup by design, they don't have their own army. They are supposed to be that stuff you slap on other elfs and play them in new interesting ways. Balance issues notwithstanding.

When (if) they get their own set of stratagems, GW would FAQ out using Craftworld ones probably.

**Galef**

The problem is the way the rules are written. Being Ynnari actually doesn't change the Faction of CWE units. They are still <Alaitoc> <Saim-Hann> or whatever.
The fact that you need a non-Ynnari CWE detachment to unlock the stratagems is a decent start though.

The real issue is when you get to layer stratagems and other powers on large single units. This is the main reason I think Reapers NEED to have a max unit size of only 5, not 10.
This would half the effectiveness of being Ynnari.
Especially since Ynnari already got nerfed into the ground by only allowing any type of Soulburst once per turn.

As soon as that change was made it stopped all Ynnari lists EXCEPT those with large Reaper and Spear units. If you lower the max unit size of both of those units to 5, you instantly "balance" Ynnari.
And by balance, I mean snuff out.

-

**Algelion**

Galef wrote:
The problem is the way the rules are written. Being Ynnari actually doesn't change the Faction of CWE units. They are still <Alaitoc> <Saim-Hann> or whatever.
The fact that you need a non-Ynnari CWE detachment to unlock the stratagems is a decent start though.

The real issue is when you get to layer stratagems and other powers on large single units. This is the main reason I think Reapers NEED to have a max unit size of only 5, not 10.
This would half the effectiveness of being Ynnari.
Especially since Ynnari already got nerfed into the ground by only allowing any type of Soulburst once per turn.

As soon as that change was made it stopped all Ynnari lists EXCEPT those with large Reaper and Spear units. If you lower the max unit size of both of those units to 5, you instantly "balance" Ynnari.
And by balance, I mean snuff out.

-

We play tournament before the Ynnari nerf here in Ukraine and we got top 3 Ynkarne Ynnari list, this awatar of Innead raped everyone.

**DarknessEternal**

Galef wrote:

As soon as that change was made it stopped all Ynnari lists EXCEPT those with large Reaper and Spear units. If you lower the max unit size of both of those units to 5, you instantly "balance" Ynnari.
And by balance, I mean snuff out.
-

More likely, they just raise the price on each of them by 15-20.

**Galef**

DarknessEternal wrote:
Galef wrote:

As soon as that change was made it stopped all Ynnari lists EXCEPT those with large Reaper and Spear units. If you lower the max unit size of both of those units to 5, you instantly "balance" Ynnari.
And by balance, I mean snuff out.
-

More likely, they just raise the price on each of them by 15-20.

Which would suck and would be the lazy answer. Lower that max unit size of Reapers to 5 and the damage of each weapon mode by -1 (S8 is Damage 2 or D3, S5 is damage 1 per shot)

No price increase needed, problems fixed.
Simply raising the cost means less models on the table, which is bad for GW. Hopefully they realize this

-

**fresus**

I still think Ynnari should be an all or nothing thing. If one of your detachment is Ynnari, then all of them must be.
It would stop cross faction stratagems without having to change anything (although it would be fairly easy to say the craftworld strats can't be used on a unit with the Ynnari keyword).
It would kill the faction given how weak SftD is, but it would make balancing Ynnari easier in the future, as a buff of their rules wouldn't affect CWE directly.

**stratigo**

admironheart wrote:
with LVO now done there is a lot of chatter to nerf the elder. Yet it was almost all ynarri with only 1 real elder near the top.

I think we have a really good codex even though I hear that others are better. I don't think Tyranids is actually the best like some state.

I think we dominate psychic most matchups which we should.
We do wipe away like paper as is fluffy.

I really don't think we are that hard hitting compared to other units...it is a nice mesh and synergy that makes our lackluster units good.

Imagine if we had no WebWay, Wave Serpents, DOOM or Shurikens. The army would be one of the worst.

I know the crowd clamours over Dark Reapers, but I don't think they are that much of a force multiplier.

Massed Shuriken fire, dropping in hard hitting units from reserves....the toughest transport in the game and the nicest set of synergetic psyche powers are the real game changers that make us good

And really that is what makes us elder. It is a good representation of elder (except that we throw a lot of lives away every battle....which has been ridiculous ever since 3rd)

I say NAY to the crowd that want to make changes.

At most add 3 or 6 points to dark reapers( the latter only if they get EML stats for that as the standard weapon)

Dark reapers are too good for their points. They're drastically too good for their points with word of the phoenix cast on them. Which creates a balance problem of its own. The points dark reapers should be at when they aren't allowed a trivial way to double shoot in a turn is, of course, going to be way way lower than the points they are going to be at when you can take a squad of 9 and shoot them twice in a turn.

DarknessEternal wrote:
Weidekuh wrote:

- ynnari is extremely efficient in a small reaper & spears detachement.

Please confine Ynnari tactics and conversation to the Ynnari thread.

This is Craftworlds.

This is nonsense. Ynnari is literally 3 units, 3 psychic powers, and a special rule. When the only ynnari part of an army is 9 dark reapers supported by psychic powers, which a handful of supplements to fill out a detachment, you have to stop and think a moment about "You're not allowed to talk about ynnari". Which sounds more like "Please don't focus on our OP stuff and maybe it won't get nerfed"

Galef wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:
Galef wrote:

As soon as that change was made it stopped all Ynnari lists EXCEPT those with large Reaper and Spear units. If you lower the max unit size of both of those units to 5, you instantly "balance" Ynnari.
And by balance, I mean snuff out.
-

More likely, they just raise the price on each of them by 15-20.

Which would suck and would be the lazy answer. Lower that max unit size of Reapers to 5 and the damage of each weapon mode by -1 (S8 is Damage 2 or D3, S5 is damage 1 per shot)

No price increase needed, problems fixed.
Simply raising the cost means less models on the table, which is bad for GW. Hopefully they realize this

-

raising point costs is the easiest solution and, well, people have already bought all those dark reapers since they saw what they could do. Time to nerf and make you think about buying something else

**DarknessEternal**

stratigo wrote:

raising point costs is the easiest solution and, well, people have already bought all those dark reapers since they saw what they could do. Time to nerf and make you think about buying something else

Dark Reapers haven't been for sale in the US by GW since before 8th edition, so not really.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

stratigo wrote:

This is nonsense. Ynnari is literally 3 units, 3 psychic powers, and a special rule. When the only ynnari part of an army is 9 dark reapers supported by psychic powers, which a handful of supplements to fill out a detachment, you have to stop and think a moment about "You're not allowed to talk about ynnari". Which sounds more like "Please don't focus on our OP stuff and maybe it won't get nerfed"
-

No, it means, there's an Ynnari thread for talking about Ynnari tactics on this forum.

This is the Craftworlds one.

**Weidekuh**

DarknessEternal wrote:

What isn't TAC about 100 Genestealers? It beats everything.

Please refer to the Genestealers thread for Genestealers tactics. Did I learn that right?

Limiting Dark Reapers to 5 models might help to nerf Ynnari and Craftworld intercept strategem. But in an Alatoic detachement small 3 model units to spam the tempest launcher is still extremely strong in an infantry screen meta. So it won't really do much. GW will change reapers and probably shining spears, both for a good reason. We have to hope they will get the balance just right.

**DarknessEternal**

Weidekuh wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:

What isn't TAC about 100 Genestealers? It beats everything.

Please refer to the Genestealers thread for Genestealers tactics. Did I learn that right?

No, that's actually a violation of the rules of this forum since it's an ad hominem attack and also deliberately misconstruing an out of context quote of how to beat Craftworlds with Tyranids.

Welcome to ignore, and reported.

**stratigo**

DarknessEternal wrote:
Weidekuh wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:

What isn't TAC about 100 Genestealers? It beats everything.

Please refer to the Genestealers thread for Genestealers tactics. Did I learn that right?

No, that's actually a violation of the rules of this forum since it's an ad hominem attack and also deliberately misconstruing an out of context quote of how to beat Craftworlds with Tyranids.

Welcome to ignore, and reported.

I’m not sure you understand what an ad hominem is

**FarseerReborn**

Eldar Craftworlds Tactics thread: the only place where players discuss about the best possible way to NERF their own codex

**Weidekuh**

Because some people don't like it when their toys are overpowered, but also fear they are going to get nerfed too much.

**em_en_oh_pee**

Weidekuh wrote:
nerfed too much.

Shadow Spectres being a good exmaple.

Le sigh.

**Farseer_V2**

FarseerReborn wrote:
Eldar Craftworlds Tactics thread: the only place where players discuss about the best possible way to NERF their own codex

Yeah because we don't want another Shadow Spectres situation where models that we've invested in are rendered useless.

**Gangrel767**

Farseer_V2 wrote:
FarseerReborn wrote:
Eldar Craftworlds Tactics thread: the only place where players discuss about the best possible way to NERF their own codex

Yeah because we don't want another Shadow Spectres situation where models that we've invested in are rendered useless.

Our our cousins Razorwing Flocks....

**sadhvikv**

Interestingly, spectres become more effective in the competitive environment as reapers get worse (which are a hard counter to spectres) - let's see if spears escape a nerf or not (imo they are better than reapers/game winners in a good players hands, you can't really make many mistakes playing reapers, but there's a lot of skill involved in good spear play)

**Fafnir**

Spectres only become more competitive in direct comparison fighting against Reapers. Reapers getting nerfed still won't see Spectres become a viable option, as they're just far too ludicrously expensive to work. People don't skip on Spectres because they're scared of Reapers. They skip on them because they're just not worth taking at all.

**sadhvikv**

Fafnir wrote:
Spectres only become more competitive in direct comparison fighting against Reapers. Reapers getting nerfed still won't see Spectres become a viable option, as they're just far too ludicrously expensive to work. People don't skip on Spectres because they're scared of Reapers. They skip on them because they're just not worth taking at all.

I'm not sure I agree with this. The reason I don't take them is:

1) Spears - spectres are outright worse for the points
2) Reapers - the eldar matchup is tough and 1st turn is powerful, reapers drop spectres painfully fast with the tempest launcher, which is also a more cost effective way of providing anti-horde

If there's a significant reaper nerf and a small spear nerf I think we'll start seeing spectres again (in a similar role to spears currently, Ynaari, quicken, protect, fortune, wotp), they're at the right point level, it's just spears and reapers are a bit overtuned.

Competitively, flyrants spam is a good counter to eldar, and the eldar mirror match is tough because first turn skews the game to one side a lot. Every other army struggles against good eldar play at the moment. That's why reapers are related to the viability of spectres.

I'm only talking competitively because that's all I really play nowadays - bit on edge about how this March FAQ goes!

**Fafnir**

Spears would need more than a small nerf. They were already better than Spectres before their point increase (outside of Ynnari armies at the time, which were broken).

**shortymcnostrill**

sadhvikv wrote:
Fafnir wrote:
Spectres only become more competitive in direct comparison fighting against Reapers. Reapers getting nerfed still won't see Spectres become a viable option, as they're just far too ludicrously expensive to work. People don't skip on Spectres because they're scared of Reapers. They skip on them because they're just not worth taking at all.

I'm not sure I agree with this. The reason I don't take them is:

1) Spears - spectres are outright worse for the points
2) Reapers - the eldar matchup is tough and 1st turn is powerful, reapers drop spectres painfully fast with the tempest launcher, which is also a more cost effective way of providing anti-horde

If there's a significant reaper nerf and a small spear nerf I think we'll start seeing spectres again (in a similar role to spears currently, Ynaari, quicken, protect, fortune, wotp), they're at the right point level, it's just spears and reapers are a bit overtuned.

Competitively, flyrants spam is a good counter to eldar, and the eldar mirror match is tough because first turn skews the game to one side a lot. Every other army struggles against good eldar play at the moment. That's why reapers are related to the viability of spectres.

I'm only talking competitively because that's all I really play nowadays - bit on edge about how this March FAQ goes!

I find this interesting. Say gw nerfs (or even conscript-nerfs) both reapers and spears, what would be the popular units then?

**sadhvikv**

shortymcnostrill wrote:
sadhvikv wrote:
Fafnir wrote:
Spectres only become more competitive in direct comparison fighting against Reapers. Reapers getting nerfed still won't see Spectres become a viable option, as they're just far too ludicrously expensive to work. People don't skip on Spectres because they're scared of Reapers. They skip on them because they're just not worth taking at all.

I'm not sure I agree with this. The reason I don't take them is:

1) Spears - spectres are outright worse for the points
2) Reapers - the eldar matchup is tough and 1st turn is powerful, reapers drop spectres painfully fast with the tempest launcher, which is also a more cost effective way of providing anti-horde

If there's a significant reaper nerf and a small spear nerf I think we'll start seeing spectres again (in a similar role to spears currently, Ynaari, quicken, protect, fortune, wotp), they're at the right point level, it's just spears and reapers are a bit overtuned.

Competitively, flyrants spam is a good counter to eldar, and the eldar mirror match is tough because first turn skews the game to one side a lot. Every other army struggles against good eldar play at the moment. That's why reapers are related to the viability of spectres.

I'm only talking competitively because that's all I really play nowadays - bit on edge about how this March FAQ goes!

I find this interesting. Say gw nerfs (or even conscript-nerfs) both reapers and spears, what would be the popular units then?

If reapers and spears are nerfed out of existence, I'm not sure there is a top table competitive build possible - potentially 5x Hemlocks + 6 spiritseers if the smite beta rules don't get confirmed. The TAC list would probably need wave serpents, fire dragons, swooping hawks, spectres and flyers - but it'd be tough. Let's hope they get the balance right without nuking spears + reapers.

**Fafnir**

shortymcnostrill wrote:
sadhvikv wrote:
Fafnir wrote:
Spectres only become more competitive in direct comparison fighting against Reapers. Reapers getting nerfed still won't see Spectres become a viable option, as they're just far too ludicrously expensive to work. People don't skip on Spectres because they're scared of Reapers. They skip on them because they're just not worth taking at all.

I'm not sure I agree with this. The reason I don't take them is:

1) Spears - spectres are outright worse for the points
2) Reapers - the eldar matchup is tough and 1st turn is powerful, reapers drop spectres painfully fast with the tempest launcher, which is also a more cost effective way of providing anti-horde

If there's a significant reaper nerf and a small spear nerf I think we'll start seeing spectres again (in a similar role to spears currently, Ynaari, quicken, protect, fortune, wotp), they're at the right point level, it's just spears and reapers are a bit overtuned.

Competitively, flyrants spam is a good counter to eldar, and the eldar mirror match is tough because first turn skews the game to one side a lot. Every other army struggles against good eldar play at the moment. That's why reapers are related to the viability of spectres.

I'm only talking competitively because that's all I really play nowadays - bit on edge about how this March FAQ goes!

I find this interesting. Say gw nerfs (or even conscript-nerfs) both reapers and spears, what would be the popular units then?

There wouldn't be any. The Eldar book is built on the backs of three good units and psyker support. Kill off two of them, and it no longer functions with any competitive viability. Don't be fooled by current tournament results, the Eldar codex is in a very unhealthy place right now, and needs some serious work across the entire army.

**admironheart**

Yes I'm getting tired of conversation after conversation about how 'overpowered' Reapers are at the game tables....and the next sentence out of every mouth......every mouth every time is that Yannari this and Yannari that.....

AAAAAAAAnnnnnndd tI tell them well that IS NOT craftworld.....that is Ynarri.....so don't complain about Craftworld Eldar....complain about Ynarri....

Sheeesh

**stratigo**

admironheart wrote:
Yes I'm getting tired of conversation after conversation about how 'overpowered' Reapers are at the game tables....and the next sentence out of every mouth......every mouth every time is that Yannari this and Yannari that.....

AAAAAAAAnnnnnndd tI tell them well that IS NOT craftworld.....that is Ynarri.....so don't complain about Craftworld Eldar....complain about Ynarri....

Sheeesh

It's dark reapers. Ynnari uses them best, but if ynnari poofed tomorrow, then you'd still see all the dark reapers.