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Not to mention the IoM has an extensive degree of genetic knowledge- they can use all kinds of GM crops to provide an adequate nutritional mix.

 Irbis wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:
Wrong. Purely vegetarian diet means dying in your thirties (if you're lucky to live that long) from malnutrition. In that he is entirely correct. There are only two ways to counteract this - either you eat very carefully monitored, varied diet of plants from at least 4 continents that do happen to contain most of the needed nutrients (some of which, ironically, have to be shuttled daily on planes to supermarkets in rich countries, greatly contributing to your carbon footprint and utterly destroying any ecological benefit from not eating meat) or you need to eat diet supplement pills by a handful to get multiple vitamins that are only present in meat and/or only soluble in fat. It's very telling that before modern era there were cultures adapted to 100% meat diet (Inuits) but there was literally none adapted to 100% plant diet, they always got at least some animal-origin nutrients from somewhere. That is not to say vegetarian diet can't exist in 40K, hive world would probably manufacture said diet supplements by a bucketful and generously slop them on algae wafers or whatever.

As for claim dying of malnutrition is not a thing, this is exactly the kind of thinking that leads to this:

http://www.rense.com/general13/malni.htm
https://www.vegan.com/blog/angelina-jolie-claims-vegan-diet-nearly-killed-her/

Curious, considering that vegetarianism has been around since at least ancient Greece and India with little evidence of malnutrition, despite not having access to 'plants from 4 continents'.

Correct that we have evolved with an omnivorous diet with a significant meat proportion, but that's primarily because meat is efficient for the effort required to procure it on an individual level. Since the advent of agriculture it's perfectly possible to ensure adequate nutrition from plants alone with sod all additional management.

 Irbis wrote:
Purely vegetarian diet means dying in your thirties (if you're lucky to live that long) from malnutrition.

Damn I'm going to die soon .
Well, eating all those pasta was still worth it .

On my grave I want my epitaph to be “Irbis was right and also India doesn't exist and stuff!”

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
Purely vegetarian diet means dying in your thirties (if you're lucky to live that long) from malnutrition.

Damn I'm going to die soon .
Well, eating all those pasta was still worth it .

On my grave I want my epitaph to be “Irbis was right and also India doesn't exist and stuff!”

If you eat beans and peanuts, you are getting key nutrients that is normally found in meat. That's how vegetarians manage to get by without dying from malnutrition.


But Ibris is right. A 100% pure veggie diet is not a good idea, health wise. Like I said before, Humans are omnivores. Not herbivores.

On the flip side, we're not carnivores either. So, a strictly meat diet isn't a good idea either.

 Haighus wrote:
Not to mention the IoM has an extensive degree of genetic knowledge- they can use all kinds of GM crops to provide an adequate nutritional mix.

Assuming its not against some random ad mech or munitorium policy.

besides good chance that 90% of crops probably just end up being ground into shelf stable nutrition paste. probably a ton of bugs fungus and plant matter and stock animals.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:



Humans, like most primates, are omnivores. Needed nutrition comes from both animal and plant products.


In our technological world, whether or not you get that needed nutrition from meat or plants is your choice. But absent that? You better get good a hunting and picking berries.

You don't need plant products though. Humans can easily thrive on meat alone (historically, many arctic cultures never had access to plants at all). We can also thrive on plants alone, but as has been mentioned in this thread already, this is much more precarious and either takes careful planning or the liberal use of food supplements.
I 40k, I imagine most of the average hive worlder's diet would be vegetarian (plants are more cost effective) in origin, but they certainly would not get any fresh vegetable or the like. They'd more likely get food in powdered form and such. I could also imagine things like synthetic meat being a big thing.

Speaking of synthetic meat

just tried the impossible burger.

not bad. but the texture is off and it has a odd bean after taste.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:



Humans, like most primates, are omnivores. Needed nutrition comes from both animal and plant products.


In our technological world, whether or not you get that needed nutrition from meat or plants is your choice. But absent that? You better get good a hunting and picking berries.

You don't need plant products though. Humans can easily thrive on meat alone (historically, many arctic cultures never had access to plants at all). We can also thrive on plants alone, but as has been mentioned in this thread already, this is much more precarious and either takes careful planning or the liberal use of food supplements.
I 40k, I imagine most of the average hive worlder's diet would be vegetarian (plants are more cost effective) in origin, but they certainly would not get any fresh vegetable or the like. They'd more likely get food in powdered form and such. I could also imagine things like synthetic meat being a big thing.

As far as I understand, humans do not easily adapt to eating solely meat diets. The Artic peoples are actually heavily adapted to their environments, and have a greater tolerance for eating oily fish than the majority of people. This oily fish is what they need to get sufficient nutrition from an all-meat diet, but it is also what would kill less adapted humans. Fish oils have an anti-coagulant effect, and eating the quantities of fish Inuits eat causes most people to become hypocoagulable and die of anaemia and blood loss (in the time span of months to a few years). Inuits actually often do die due to bleeds of some kind, but they are less susceptible to this than non-Artic populations.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:
If you eat beans and peanuts, you are getting key nutrients that is normally found in meat.

I'm pretty sure beans and peanuts aren't meat and are perfectly fine in a vegetarian diet though.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:
A 100% pure veggie diet is not a good idea, health wise.

Meh eating pasta every evening isn't a good idea health wise doesn't stop me it's good and easy to cook.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:
A 100% pure veggie diet is not a good idea, health wise.

Meh eating pasta every evening isn't a good idea health wise doesn't stop me it's good and easy to cook.

If Italians can manage it, it can't be that bad for you- Italians have a great life expectancy!

https://youtu.be/tHKOsdLB4HE

 Haighus wrote:
If Italians can manage it, it can't be that bad for you- Italians have a great life expectancy!

Italians don't eat pasta every evening, else how would they find time to eat pizza?
Wait I eat pizza too!
And I eat ice-cream too!
I have a very healthy diet. Really healthy! Nice.
I'm a very stable genius.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
If Italians can manage it, it can't be that bad for you- Italians have a great life expectancy!

Italians don't eat pasta every evening, else how would they find time to eat pizza?

By eating pasta at lunch. Then you have time for pizza too I joke but the guy in the video suggests eating pasta everyday is actually the norm in parts of Italy.

Wait I eat pizza too!
And I eat ice-cream too!
I have a very healthy diet. Really healthy! Nice.
I'm a very stable genius.

Sounds better than my diet...

Well this noon I made myself a special delicacy. In my home town it's called a "Belgian". It's taking a baguette (famous French bread), opening it, putting ketchup and mayonnaise and plenty of french fries, and then eating it.
I'll live old and slim for sure .

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:



Humans, like most primates, are omnivores. Needed nutrition comes from both animal and plant products.


In our technological world, whether or not you get that needed nutrition from meat or plants is your choice. But absent that? You better get good a hunting and picking berries.

You don't need plant products though. Humans can easily thrive on meat alone (historically, many arctic cultures never had access to plants at all). We can also thrive on plants alone, but as has been mentioned in this thread already, this is much more precarious and either takes careful planning or the liberal use of food supplements.
I 40k, I imagine most of the average hive worlder's diet would be vegetarian (plants are more cost effective) in origin, but they certainly would not get any fresh vegetable or the like. They'd more likely get food in powdered form and such. I could also imagine things like synthetic meat being a big thing.

I'd imagine it would be fairly easy to grow mushrooms in the underhive, too.
You'd get vitamin B from those, and there have been experiments with giving them texture (like chicken - back in the early 90s).

Damn. This thread is making me have hungry.

But I can't decide what for...

It should be noted that some regiments like the Mordant Acid Dogs come from places where the main form of sustenance is fortified algae.

Since 40k is fiction and doesn't have to follow any actual dietery laws, I bet there are tons of worlds whose grimdark is that they only have a single food source - some of which will be animal and some of which will be plant based.

Not sure if this has been brought up, But I seem to recall a Lexicanum article on the Imperium keeping alien cattle known as "Grox".

Here's a link: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Grox

EDIT: Ah! I remembered something else; I believe we've seen the evolution of the tau within the time humans have lived among the stars in the 40k universe. Seems plausible that some Humans on other planets would have evolved to eat different things available, some might even have become herbivores or carnivores.

 Lazzamore wrote:
Not sure if this has been brought up, But I seem to recall a Lexicanum article on the Imperium keeping alien cattle known as "Grox".

Here's a link: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Grox

EDIT: Ah! I remembered something else; I believe we've seen the evolution of the tau within the time humans have lived among the stars in the 40k universe. Seems plausible that some Humans on other planets would have evolved to eat different things available, some might even have become herbivores or carnivores.

humans have evolved over time, it's where abhumans such as ratlings, ogyrens and squats all come from

Did a lot of research before I became vegan. The only supplement which is recommended is B12 (this website summerises veganism and nutrients: https://www.peta.org/living/food/vegan-101-guide-for-new-vegans/vegans-guide-good-nutrition/) . Additionally, there are lots of scientific studies saying veganism results in a longer life. Meanwhile, the amount of resources required in terms of land and water is much less than meat and slightly less than vegetarian.

If the Imperium aims to maximise efficiency then veganism is an excellent option because, compared to meat diets, it would allow normal (or even extended) life of its citizens whilst using up less resources to feed those citizens.

 Samsonov wrote:
Did a lot of research before I became vegan. The only supplement which is recommended is B12 (this website summerises veganism and nutrients: https://www.peta.org/living/food/vegan-101-guide-for-new-vegans/vegans-guide-good-nutrition/) . Additionally, there are lots of scientific studies saying veganism results in a longer life. Meanwhile, the amount of resources required in terms of land and water is much less than meat and slightly less than vegetarian.

If the Imperium aims to maximise efficiency then veganism is an excellent option because, compared to meat diets, it would allow normal (or even extended) life of its citizens whilst using up less resources to feed those citizens.

And there are plenty of scientific studies saying exactly the opposite, that it has no health effects or is even detrimental (like there is a study suggesting vegetarians are at increased risk of lung cancer). You can find a scientific study proving X is good or bad for your health for almost everything, so always take it with a big pinch of . Especially if you take information from PETA.
Afaik, the mainstream scientific opinion still suggests that a varied and balanced diet including fish and unprocessed meat is optimal. Everything in moderation and with plenty of exercise of course.
Luckily, Imperial citizens will get plenty of exercise while working 25-hour shifts for the glory of the Emperor. A balanced and varied diet? Probably not at all.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

And there are plenty of scientific studies saying exactly the opposite

Very true, most biomedical research is at best tentative and large scale studies have a tendency of giving different results depending on various specifics of each experiment or due or varying populations being targeted. This is why I said veganism "would allow normal (or even extended) life of its citizens". I'm in for ethical reasons but it was nice to know there is no strong evidence that is reduces life expectancy.

Also, significant forces in the 40K universe take a monkish approach, such as space marines, sisters of battle, adeptus mechanicus. Monks often (in theory at least) favour a simple life without pleasure to consentrate on worship and I could easily imagine significant parts of the Imperium doing likewise. Hence meat might be considered too much of a luxury.

But marines can eat the flesh of their enemies to gain their knowledge.

wait does that mean a marine eating say a juicy steak will suddenly remember green pastures?

but yeah in theory 99% of the imperium would be eating mostly nutrition paste which probably contains mostly insects and vegetables. with the occasional nutrition rat and house hold pets.

Space Marines eat their own poo. This is totally still canon.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Space Marines eat their own poo. This is totally still canon.

So much for their advanced physiology. Can't even get all the nutrients and calories the first time through

 Melissia wrote:

 Cream Tea wrote:
Vegetarian food is more efficient to produce both in energy and area required

Debatable. A large number of vegetarian staples are inefficient, especially regarding calories provided compared to water used. In fact, most vegetables are very inefficient calorie-wise, making them unsuitable for prolonged heavy labor as needed by the Imperium's citizens.

Debatable you say, that’s odd everything I’ve read is to the contrary, so I say ok, let’s just google up some professional opinion.

The following is taken from a report by a professor on the cost of american farming (this is not vegan nonsense propaganda, no offence to anyone intended)

‘’Animal protein production requires more than eight times as much fossil-fuel energy than production of plant protein while yielding animal protein that is only 1.4 times more nutritious for humans than the comparable amount of plant protein’’

‘’If all the grain currently fed to livestock in the United States were consumed directly by people, the number of people who could be fed would be nearly 800 million‘’

‘’beef cattle production requires an energy input to protein output ratio of 54:1‘’

‘’Grain-fed beef production takes 100,000 liters of water for every kilogram of food‘’

‘’In comparison, soybean production uses 2,000 liters for kilogram of food produced; rice, 1,912; wheat, 900; and potatoes, 500’’

David Pimentel, professor of ecology in Cornell University's College of Agriculture and Life Sciences

This doesn’t take in to account the land needed to both grow the animals food and raise graze farm slaughter the animals and the impact they have on erosion, waste production, greenhouse gas. Simply put animals are tasty but wasteful, to think otherwise is to kid your self.

In all likeliness if it was ‘real’ they’d need to use every scrap they could so production of biofilm, algae, insects, fungus and recycled material would be very likely, only the rich could have real meat and fresh fruit. Some worlds isolated from the grind of the imperium however would be no different to here and everything would be on the table in a manner of speaking.

Doesn't seem like Melissia was saying that meat was better than vegetables but that a good portion of vegetables dont really provide much nutrition. and there are plenty that dont. (feth lettuces)

" biofilm, algae, insects, fungus and recycled material"

these are definitely the things that will be done on the most indoctrinated of worlds and pretty much all IG.

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
Simply put animals are tasty but wasteful, to think otherwise is to kid your self.

I am firmly in the crops are more efficient than meat camp, but with current tech it is not entirely true to say this. There is a lot of marginal land that is not suited to growing crops, but is able to sustain animal husbandry (the most obvious is goats, sheep and llamas in very mountainous regions). Sheep and llamas are a very interesting example because they also provide an extremely useful natural product (wool) during their life cycle, further driving up the utility.

Obviously, within the context of 40k this is only useful on less developed worlds, so civilised, death, feral and feudal worlds (which would be eating diets similar to ours on Earth today). Anything beyond that and the industrial capacity and technological means would allow the marginal lands to be heavily modified into productive land. Hive world food production is obviously entirely artificial (and supplemented by offworld supplies from agri-worlds), as the natural biosphere on such planets is devastated beyond any capacity to sustain typical agriculture and husbandry.

Also, the question of achieving adequate nutrition really is not comparable to today, because the "crops"* used are guaranteed to have 30,000 more years of selective breeding and genetic modification over what we have today. Most worlds will likely have a single crop that produces the correct nutrition mix for humans to survive off, probably with variants for specific jobs and roles (labourers having a greater calorific content in their diet than office workers for example). The alternative is growing several crops that are mixed in different proportions for different workers, but there would still likely only be a handful of crops. The crops grown will most likely vary between sectors, and between the specific conditions on each planet.

We do know that the Imperium will unsustainably strip meat and other foodstuffs from undeveloped worlds, as shown in the Ravenor series, although such meat is likely sold as a luxury product only available to the middle class equivalent at the least.

This is all from an organised perspective, in terms of the primary ways populations are fed on Imperial worlds. Obviously most hivers are not just going to eat their assigned gruel, but also spend their creds on rats-on-a-stick or mushrooms or alcohol etc, but these would be add-ons rather than the primary food source.

*Using this term loosely to describe something being grown. I would think algae films/vats would be most likely, with entirely artificial nutrient vats also being possible.

Oh speaking of vats

just realized dkok uses horses. so thats one utility animal they do raise.

 Desubot wrote:
Oh speaking of vats

just realized dkok uses horses. so thats one utility animal they do raise.

"Horses" They are pretty heavily GM and are also grown in vats, as you mention. Like many of the DKoK themselves, funnily enough.

Vat grown meat

i love it.