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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Bharring wrote:
Or take a Special or Heavy alongside those bolters.

The Shuriken Catapault is the better comparison. That's the basic troop weapon at about the same level. Lose the 1 shot at 24", gain the pseudorending.

The Avenger Shuriken Catapault is more in the Storm Bolter range. It's got 6" less range, and 2 fewer shots within 12", but it pseudorends.

The comparisons have been done to death.

Without 7E BattleFocus, Marines win even if the DAs get the alpha. By a lot. With 8thE, Marines win even if they sit outside 12", but in cover. It was close when Marines couldn't get within 12" each turn, but now they only have to close 6" - which is their base movement. It's not even close.

For hard targets, Avengers outshoot naked Marines, but die much faster. Against small arms - such as boltguns - *twice* as fast. When it was 7 DAs vs 5 PG/Combi Marines, the Marines had better shooting but some tradeoffs:
-Gets Hot on every Plasma shot
-Need to position so Plasma isn't killed early
-Combi is one-use

With the index, it became 5DAs vs 5 PG/Combi Tacs, and all drawbacks changed. Combis aren't one-use anymore. Plasma doesn't Gets Hot at S7. Ablative Wounds are guarenteed now. It's now 7DAs vs 5 Tacs, so the old math comes back. Except now, Tacs don't have those drawbacks.

If you want to kill Guard or Orkz or other light targets, the ASC is an equal tradeoff (1 less shot 18-24", 1 more at 12-18").

If you want to carry Melta or Flamer or Grav, DAs have no eqivelent. If you want to carry Lascannons or MLs or whatever, DAs can't.

If you want to give them a CC weapon, Marines add it for 4 points. DAs swap out their 4point weapon for a 4point CC weapon.

They can't even hold a Tac squad in CC - 5 Tacs will beat 10 DAs. Much less a min ASM squad or any other skirmishers. They aren't that much better than Guardsmen in CC, whereas Marines are.

As for the "easy access to a 5++", that's 24 points you're spending to upgrade your Exarch to have 0 shooting. At 5-mans, that's a LOT of lost dakka.

DAs are a little overtuned. Probably just need to pay 10pts for the Exarch again. But the ASC vs Bolter isn't the problem.

I'll explain why all that is wrong when I leave work, but I want to nitpick the part where you say that the Avenger Shuriken Catapult isn't comparable to the Bolter and the regular one is.

That's completely incorrect. The regular Shuriken Catapult is more comparable to the Shotgun Scouts carry (you choose between Bladestorm or S5 at 6" or less), on top of Guardians being more comparable to Scouts anyway.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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And Scouts can choose either the Boltgun or the Shotgun (or Sniper Rifles).

Guardians, unlike Scouts and Tac Marines, really can't endure being within 12" of the enemy. I'd rather have the Shuriken Catapault on my Tacs and Scouts, and the Boltgun on my Guardians - because they could do a midfield job so much better with that, but my Scouts and Marines want to get close.

Scouts make better foils for Guardians than Tac Marines, and Tac Marines make better foils for DAs.

The comparison is best with a Plas/CombiPlas Tac squad vs DAs, because they're both volume of fire with an anti-Elite bent. At a per-point level, that's 5 Tacs vs 7 DAs. About the same firepower. About the same survivability. They actually compare, math-wise, quite well. DAs are now a little ahead (if they cost 13 ppm or had to pay for the Exarch, I think it'd be even), as long as you don't look at CC options.
   
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Wyldhunt wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
This is a pretty cool idea. For all bolter weapons if you deal an unsaved wound ad an additional str 3 auto hit to the unit. To represent the explosion on the round on vehicals and over penetration on infantry.


Hmm. That is neat. Does the math work out on that in a desirable fashion? 5 marines shoot 10 shots at some guardsmen. They generate 6 ish hits (for the sake of easy math) which results in 4 wounds which results in about 3 dead guardsmen. This results in 3 bonus hits that will wound 1.5 times and kill one guardsman. Not amazing, but feels good.

6 hits against a chaos marine squad gives you 3 wounds, 1 dead chaos marine, 1 bonus hit, 1/3rd of a wound, and 1/9ths of a dead chaos marine. So not very useful.

6 hits against a rhino gives you 2 wounds, maybe 1 unsaved wound, 1 bonus hit, 1/6th of a wound, 1/18th of an extra hull point.

So I feel like this rule won't actually be very useful, but it also seems like it would feel good when it does work. And that rare time that you bsaically double your casualty count and evaporate a whole swarm of hormagaunts is going to feel pretty darn good. Would it be annoying to resolve though? For a bolter marine squad, it isn't too bad, but what about when you have to roll that extra to-wound roll and armor save and feel no pain roll each time a random drop pod or vehicle-mounted storm bolter tosses a couple of shots at you? You're almost doubling the time it takes to resolve a given bolt weapon's attacks.
Well the bolter really feels weak against light infantry to me. I think it should specialize at killing light infantry because that is kind of the roll marines have in general to fill. It really wouldn't take too long. It's will be quick to determine how many additional wound rolls to make because it's the same number of wounds you inflicted and the saves will be the same. It's just rolling a few more dice at the end of any bolter exchange. I catch your drift though. Something like an on a 6 effect just seems overdone. Maybe something like a +1 to wound against infantry?

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The bolter is weak against cheap infantry, because it is removing fewer points per shot against cheap stuff than it is elites.
   
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Halifornia, Nova Scotia

Martel732 wrote:
The bolter is weak against cheap infantry, because it is removing fewer points per shot against cheap stuff than it is elites.


The same is true of literally every single weapon.

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Bharring wrote:
And Scouts can choose either the Boltgun or the Shotgun (or Sniper Rifles).

Guardians, unlike Scouts and Tac Marines, really can't endure being within 12" of the enemy. I'd rather have the Shuriken Catapault on my Tacs and Scouts, and the Boltgun on my Guardians - because they could do a midfield job so much better with that, but my Scouts and Marines want to get close.

Scouts make better foils for Guardians than Tac Marines, and Tac Marines make better foils for DAs.

The comparison is best with a Plas/CombiPlas Tac squad vs DAs, because they're both volume of fire with an anti-Elite bent. At a per-point level, that's 5 Tacs vs 7 DAs. About the same firepower. About the same survivability. They actually compare, math-wise, quite well. DAs are now a little ahead (if they cost 13 ppm or had to pay for the Exarch, I think it'd be even), as long as you don't look at CC options.
You have to admit - with that pseudo rending it makes the shuriken cat a much better weapon. I'd take it over a bolter on almost any unit - other than an artillery piece.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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But those weapons are typically on cheaper bodies, getting more shots, and end up being functionally more efficient.
   
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Martel732 wrote:
But those weapons are typically on cheaper bodies, getting more shots, and end up being functionally more efficient.


See, now you're actually making a point. Stating that a weapon is weak against cheap stuff because cheap stuff is cheap is obvious and not a point to be made to adjust a weapon.

If you did an analysis of the weapon and the carrier and compared to similar units and weapons, then you'd have a point.

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For that much detail, GW can pay me.

Bolters are SUPPOSED to be more effective against light infantry, but they aren't. At least, that's my understanding.
   
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 Blacksails wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
The bolter is weak against cheap infantry, because it is removing fewer points per shot against cheap stuff than it is elites.


The same is true of literally every single weapon.

Well an elite killer usually comes with some -ap and possibly multiple damage. The approach for anti infantry weapons seems to be lots of shots. However - lots of shots ends up being more effective against elites than hordes. I see this as an issue. It's because there is no real specialization against the chaff infantry.

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Rumor is that the intercessor is going down to 18 pts. That's 10% more -1 AP shots from that model line. Of course, 18 pt intercessors is basically an admission that 13 pts is too much for a marine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/09 15:07:34


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
Rumor is that the intercessor is going down to 18 pts. That's 10% more -1 AP shots from that model line. Of course, 18 pt intercessors is basically an admission that 13 pts is too much for a marine.
IDK about that. I think it's more of a realization that a reiver is basically the same thing and cost 18 points. More importantly I'd like to see the weapons option on intercessors become free - the free weapon already being the best in gerneal option. I would like to have the ability to but auto bolters on them so I can advance and shoot. It might get me in CC a turn earlier.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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Or an admission there are WAY more multiple-wound weapons than they thought.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/09 15:15:53


 
   
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Halifornia, Nova Scotia

 Xenomancers wrote:
 Blacksails wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
The bolter is weak against cheap infantry, because it is removing fewer points per shot against cheap stuff than it is elites.


The same is true of literally every single weapon.

Well an elite killer usually comes with some -ap and possibly multiple damage. The approach for anti infantry weapons seems to be lots of shots. However - lots of shots ends up being more effective against elites than hordes. I see this as an issue. It's because there is no real specialization against the chaff infantry.


The core issue being the constant stacking of special rules on every basic weapon in some attempt to differentiate them and give them more uniqueness. As far as I'm concerned, I'd knock all the special rules off the basic infantry weapons of all factions and have the main differences be ranges, volume of fire, and maybe an AP modifiers on one or two of them.

Then again, the scale of the game is so borked that we run into issues of armies with literally 200 bodies on the table against an army with 3 models. Of course we'll have issues of most weapons not being able to mathematically chew through the horde, and that's a problem that can't really be addressed without breaking the game in some other area.

If the game was normalized so that a horde was somewhere in the 60 max models range, and a similarily pointed elite force fielded 10-20 models, we'd be able to hash out a reasonable profile for anti-horde weaponry. As it stands, short of a complicated mechanic involving secondary explosions and multiple damage to only certain units, the game is just proper dickered when it comes to the horde <-> elite spectrum. Basic weapons have long been mostly useless, and that's due to the scale creep of the game making heavy and special weapons the only weapons worth considering.

As an example, larger scale games aren't concerned with every basic infantry weapon. Most units are simplified to 1-3 profiles; their anti-infantry profile, an anti-tank profile, and potentially some special profile. The anti-infantry profile represents the mass of basic weapons and the section special weapon, while the anti-tank profile represents the section heavy weapon(s). At its core now, 40k is essentially a 15mm game played at 28mm, with 28mm mechanics rather than 15mm mechanics. Hence why we go through the same cycle every edition of complaining about basic weapons being useless and basic troopers being equally useless.

To give bolters a basic boost for now, I'd probably lean towards a basic ability like the 30k Fury of the Legion, sacrificing mobility or next turn's damage for a higher output when you need it.

TL;DR, game is broke, basic weapons have long sucked, bolters could use a small boost to be comparable to every other basic weapon now.

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So what is it about S4 AP0 on a BS+3, that hits 2/3rd of the time and wounds 2/3, 1/2, and 1/3 against T3/4/5 respectively?

Units that have better saves cost more, while units with weak saves cost less.

Bolter scouts cost less because they have less armor.

How do we go about fixing a bolter without overhauling the game?

Fluff or not, bolters arent supposed to be anti anything. They do baseline damage with baseline efficiency.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/09 15:31:20


 
   
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What basic weapons do you think are acceptable for killing hordes?

Pulse weaponry isn't any better at killing T3 than T4
Gauss weaponry is better at killing elitest saves
Shuriken weaponry is better at killing elistest saves
Splinter weaponry is better at killing high-T models - even worse than Bolters vs GEQ.

Lasguns are the only other small arms option that isn't skewed to killing Elites over GEQ.
   
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Bharring wrote:
What basic weapons do you think are acceptable for killing hordes?

Pulse weaponry isn't any better at killing T3 than T4
Gauss weaponry is better at killing elitest saves
Shuriken weaponry is better at killing elistest saves
Splinter weaponry is better at killing high-T models - even worse than Bolters vs GEQ.

Lasguns are the only other small arms option that isn't skewed to killing Elites over GEQ.


Assault cannons are my go to anti horde
   
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Bharring wrote:
What basic weapons do you think are acceptable for killing hordes?

Pulse weaponry isn't any better at killing T3 than T4
Gauss weaponry is better at killing elitest saves
Shuriken weaponry is better at killing elistest saves
Splinter weaponry is better at killing high-T models - even worse than Bolters vs GEQ.

Lasguns are the only other small arms option that isn't skewed to killing Elites over GEQ.


None of them, I guess.
   
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 Xenomancers wrote:
Well an elite killer usually comes with some -ap and possibly multiple damage. The approach for anti infantry weapons seems to be lots of shots. However - lots of shots ends up being more effective against elites than hordes. I see this as an issue. It's because there is no real specialization against the chaff infantry.


Its a quality over quantity issue. The game isn't as two dimensional as most us make it out to be.

Take a mortis dread with two assault cannons vs unit of 30 cultists. Cultists are doing +4 to hit with +6 to wound. The dread hits on +3 with +2's to wound. But it only does 12 max wounds you say? Well, the blob just lost 12 units with Ld6 so they remove another 12~17 models for morale.

You don't send in a pawn to do a rook's job.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/09 16:02:05


 
   
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Seems to be the Boltgun is one of the best Hordes-killers amongst small arms. If the problem is that even it isn't good enough vs Hordes, wouldn't buffing it vs Hordes just leave everyone else worse off?
   
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It's not one of the best. It's one of the worst because of who carries it. Or rather, how few bolters can be fielded. And it has inferior utility to most other small arms in addition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/09 16:52:34


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
It's not one of the best. It's one of the worst because of who carries it.


And yet the shuriken catapult is one of the best small arms in spite of who carries it?

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I don't know about that, really. I'm liking lasguns because of numbers. Catapults are just extra salt in the wounds of elite infantry.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/09 16:54:56


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
It's not one of the best. It's one of the worst because of who carries it.


But this is more related how point inefficient basic SM troops are and less so a weapon effectiveness discussion?

If we compare apples to apples, bolters are still the baseline weapon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/09 17:02:50


 
   
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Didn't we just go over 'most other small arms' and show that they're better suited for killing non-hordes?

It's a straight upgrade from the Shuriken Catapault when fighting anything without a relevant Armor Save. Sidegrade for those with minor armor. Anything else isn't hordes.

Gauss is identical for anything without a relevant Armor Save. It's only marginally better for those with minor armor. Anything else isn't hordes.

It's an upgrade from Splinter for any T3 hordes, identical for T4. Anything above that isn't hordes.

Pulse outperforms vs T4 hordes. Only has additional range vs T3 hordes - but that's Tau's schtick.

Gaunts with their lawlful shooting?
Lasguns are about on the same page (as stated).

What are all these tons of small arms that are better vs hordes than the Boltgun?
   
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They are inseparable, imo.
   
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Bharring wrote:
Didn't we just go over 'most other small arms' and show that they're better suited for killing non-hordes?

It's a straight upgrade from the Shuriken Catapault when fighting anything without a relevant Armor Save. Sidegrade for those with minor armor. Anything else isn't hordes.

Gauss is identical for anything without a relevant Armor Save. It's only marginally better for those with minor armor. Anything else isn't hordes.

It's an upgrade from Splinter for any T3 hordes, identical for T4. Anything above that isn't hordes.

Pulse outperforms vs T4 hordes. Only has additional range vs T3 hordes - but that's Tau's schtick.

Gaunts with their lawlful shooting?
Lasguns are about on the same page (as stated).

What are all these tons of small arms that are better vs hordes than the Boltgun?


Bolters are just standard weapon capable of reliably forcing save rolls on anything below T8. Most other basic weapons function in the same sense that any weapon above S4 deals varied amounts of damage to everything below T8.

There are specific weapons to deal with T3's and their tendency to blob up - and its not bolters.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/09 17:10:57


 
   
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I think that's some of the complaints here - what are some good Troops-level weapons for dealing with T3s? Might help to have some SM examples.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(T3 hordes)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/09 17:12:05


 
   
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No examples for sm. You have to pay for a 13 pt loser to start with. The marine tax ruins every marine anti-horde weapon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/09 17:14:04


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
No examples for sm. You have to pay for a 13 pt loser to start with. The marine tax ruins every marine anti-horde weapon.


Right. SM's don't deal with hordes with troops. They just do average damage to just about anything below T8.

We don't put up rock against and rock and see which rock is harder. We just put up papers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/09 17:17:30


 
   
 
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