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If I have, say, a Heavy Bolter or Missile Launcher team in my squad, is it legal to base the two crew it requires on different bases? Or are they required to share the same base because they crew this weapon?

M.

If you're referring to guard, they need to be based together, on a large base, to be legal.

Having that been said, i'd be fine playing with them based separately. There's a little weirdness in the rules associated with that, but I think they look stupid on the big base.

Some people have come up with elaborate means of dealing with this, such as basing them both separately on small bases and magnetizing the bases to sit on top of a large base.

You base them how they are packaged.

newer kits will have them on a single 60.

but older kits may have them individually. especially the metal ones.

ask your local group.

 daedalus wrote:
If you're referring to guard, they need to be based together, on a large base, to be legal.

Having that been said, i'd be fine playing with them based separately. There's a little weirdness in the rules associated with that, but I think they look stupid on the big base.

Some people have come up with elaborate means of dealing with this, such as basing them both separately on small bases and magnetizing the bases to sit on top of a large base.

Ah, unfortunate. I also think the big base is kinda weird looking, though I suppose I could do the magnetized version without any issue - they can be come separate casualties still yeah?

M.

Personally I wouldn't put them on one base. Regardless of the "rules".

What I have done, is to make a scenic, 60mm base, with two holes, that each fit a 25mm base. That way, I can model, paint and place the guardsmen that form the heavy weapons team separately as needed. It also allows me to remove one from the 60mm base as some sort of wound marker. Still allows me to play them as separate models in older editions, or whenever I play against people who also agree the rules for Heavy Weapons Teams are flawed, and largely incomplete.

 Infantryman wrote:

Ah, unfortunate. I also think the big base is kinda weird looking, though I suppose I could do the magnetized version without any issue - they can be come separate casualties still yeah?

M.

Technically they become a single two wound model. If you wanted to separate them and run them as two different models, you would have to treat one of them as if he wasn't actually there for any purposes except the wound. He can't fire, doesn't count as a casualty for morale, and doesn't get any extra attacks on his own in melee. Probably shouldn't count as being able to be in base to base with anything. There may be other ramifications I haven't thought all the way through on.

If you magnetize them, than you could always use one as a wound marker. There's not really any affect to the model itself though as a result of taking a wound other than the fact that it has a wound. It can still operate just as well as it could before.

I need to re-read the rules, again, then - you're saying a 2x man HW team is just one "guy" - no lasgun or anything from the "spotter"?

That's unfortunate.

M.

No RB at the moment, but I'm pretty sure a model can fire each weapon it's armed with. In the Index, at least, the HWT have a Lasgun and HW... I'm pretty sure. At work, so I'm just kind of talking out of my ass.

So, in the case of Single Wound attacks, the combined base is slightly better, because you get to keep using the "dead" lasgun. With Multiple wounds, it can suck, because instead of overkilling a chump, you take multi-wounds on your HWT.

Blast weapons USED TO only get one hit on an HWT, but that rule is no longer a thing.

In my experience, rules wise, treating the team as a 2-wound creature is microscopically better than two 1-wound creatures... but it's so close I wouldn't care. I base my Gunner on the big base, and left a place for the spotter to sit on his own base, and tip him over to represent a lost wound.

I take it the "model" in the "Each model is armed with a lasgun and frag grenades" refers to a single W2 model, which also has a heavy weapon, as opposed to two W1 models, one of whom has a heavy weapon?
So in order to avoid confusion it's probably best to put them both on the same base.

EDIT:

Now I'm wondering how a killed HW team inside an infantry squad affects morale. Do you get -1 on Ld or -2? If it's -1, that's one more reason to single-base the HW team.

 Infantryman wrote:
I need to re-read the rules, again, then - you're saying a 2x man HW team is just one "guy" - no lasgun or anything from the "spotter"?

That's unfortunate.

M.

So, that's a little weird. Each model can fire all of its weapons each turn, except for pistols and grenades because they have special exceptions.

Heavy Weapon Teams in a Heavy Weapon Squad are specifically stated to be armed with a lasgun and frag grenades. By the above, they can fire one lasgun and the heavy weapon. Fine so far.

But if you look at infantry, it says each guardsman is armed with a lasgun and frag grenades. It doesn't say anything about what a heavy weapons team would be armed with in that situation. Then if you look at the wargear options, two guardsmen can form a heavy weapons team who must take an item from the heavy weapons list, but it never says that they can actually have that lasgun in that case.

Anyone reasonable? "Yeah, sure, a HWT has a lasgun whether it's in infantry or in a HWS, and it can fire that lasgun too. It's just an oversight. Obviously."

I only bring this up because 40k isn't well known for reasonable people.

 daedalus wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
I need to re-read the rules, again, then - you're saying a 2x man HW team is just one "guy" - no lasgun or anything from the "spotter"?

That's unfortunate.

M.

So, that's a little weird. Each model can fire all of its weapons each turn, except for pistols and grenades because they have special exceptions.

Heavy Weapon Teams in a Heavy Weapon Squad are specifically stated to be armed with a lasgun and frag grenades. By the above, they can fire one lasgun and the heavy weapon. Fine so far.

But if you look at infantry, it says each guardsman is armed with a lasgun and frag grenades. It doesn't say anything about what a heavy weapons team would be armed with in that situation. Then if you look at the wargear options, two guardsmen can form a heavy weapons team who must take an item from the heavy weapons list, but it never says that they can actually have that lasgun in that case.

Anyone reasonable? "Yeah, sure, a HWT has a lasgun whether it's in infantry or in a HWS, and it can fire that lasgun too. It's just an oversight. Obviously."

I only bring this up because 40k isn't well known for reasonable people.

I agree on all counts - lasguns and reasonable people.

Alongside this, has it been settled how many points a barebones infantry squad with a Heavy Weapon Team is yet?

The bullet point in the codex on page 142 says that if they form a heavy weapons team, there's no additional point cost. Since they're all fixed size, I can't really find a way to willfully misinterpret that in any way other than "models per unit * points per model".

I have my lascannons and heavy bolters are on the provided 60mm bases with it's gunner attached to the same base. The second team member is on his own 25mm base, and I put him on the 60mm base as well, and I can remove him as a casualty.

My missile launcher teams have been on 2 25mm bases since 2nd edition. They look lost on a 60mm base.

My motar teams have the motar attached to a 40mm base and both team members on 25mm bases

Considering that the old style HWTS are un-based, I have no problem with modern HWTS being built un-based. After all, it's perfectly legal to use the old ones without a base, GW sold them this way after all. That said, I built my newer HWTs with the included base because it was easier, but I leave my old metal HWTs as they came.

4100xpb wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
I need to re-read the rules, again, then - you're saying a 2x man HW team is just one "guy" - no lasgun or anything from the "spotter"?

That's unfortunate.

M.

So, that's a little weird. Each model can fire all of its weapons each turn, except for pistols and grenades because they have special exceptions.

Heavy Weapon Teams in a Heavy Weapon Squad are specifically stated to be armed with a lasgun and frag grenades. By the above, they can fire one lasgun and the heavy weapon. Fine so far.

But if you look at infantry, it says each guardsman is armed with a lasgun and frag grenades. It doesn't say anything about what a heavy weapons team would be armed with in that situation. Then if you look at the wargear options, two guardsmen can form a heavy weapons team who must take an item from the heavy weapons list, but it never says that they can actually have that lasgun in that case.

Anyone reasonable? "Yeah, sure, a HWT has a lasgun whether it's in infantry or in a HWS, and it can fire that lasgun too. It's just an oversight. Obviously."

I only bring this up because 40k isn't well known for reasonable people.

I agree on all counts - lasguns and reasonable people.

Alongside this, has it been settled how many points a barebones infantry squad with a Heavy Weapon Team is yet?

Ugh, I've had my share of experiences back in the day. Bonus points if it's one of those Clever Guys who act like the most brilliant general in the world, running on technicalies and making things by the mm...

You'd think they'd have everything related to such a basic unit type figured out before they publish, yeah?

I'm considering making the base which allows a detachable guy - need to figure out how to mod the base. Infantry are, in theory, the minority of my IG army, so going a little extra isn't going to add ages to the build process. Hell, I was half tempted to run no heavy weapons in their squads at all!

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
Considering that the old style HWTS are un-based, I have no problem with modern HWTS being built un-based. After all, it's perfectly legal to use the old ones without a base, GW sold them this way after all. That said, I built my newer HWTs with the included base because it was easier, but I leave my old metal HWTs as they came.

Speaking of which, I need to hunt up some bitz to make any future las/auto cannon wheeled.

M.

 Infantryman wrote:
I need to re-read the rules, again, then - you're saying a 2x man HW team is just one "guy" - no lasgun or anything from the "spotter"?

That's unfortunate.

M.

RAW it's a single model with a heavy weapon, lasgun, frag grenades, and flak armor. It's basically a single guardsman from a rules point of view with two wounds.

This does mean you can fire the heavy weapon and the lasgun at the same time with no penalties at least, the base just has to fire both weapons at the same target, so the loader actually does far more now than he has for a good 3 editions.


I'm not a big fan of the 60mm bases either. They're incredibly difficult to use in ruins or terrain, even places where you can clearly tell a team would set up, just because they're difficult to balance, but thems the rules unfortunately. I have a ton of the old metal teams without 60mm bases that I played as separate models for a long time but eventually mounted them up on 60mm's just for simplicity's sake.

It's supposed to be two guys on one base, and for morale purposes it's one model. The 60mm bases are wonky, to keep them from falling off ledges constantly I have an old metal loader glued as close to the front as looks cool and glue a couple of nickels to the front of the base to add weight. I have loads of the old metal heavy weapons but they just don't look as sweet as the mini diorama modern gun teams.

Are the 60mm bases new to this edition? I remember 4e having "large" bases but I swear they seemed smaller. Actually, I swear the new bases that came with my Guardsmen are thinner, too. Top-injected as well.

I'll see about weighting down the base - good suggestion - and working out how to get them individually based and mountable to the 60mm. Thing there is now they're a base-thickness higher, which means they'll poke out of LOS a bit more often...maybe.

M.

 Infantryman wrote:
Are the 60mm bases new to this edition? I remember 4e having "large" bases but I swear they seemed smaller. Actually, I swear the new bases that came with my Guardsmen are thinner, too. Top-injected as well.

I'll see about weighting down the base - good suggestion - and working out how to get them individually based and mountable to the 60mm. Thing there is now they're a base-thickness higher, which means they'll poke out of LOS a bit more often...maybe.

M.

Go Steel Legion heavy bolter style. I think it looks awesome with the HB on the bipod and prone crew - I definitely plan on doing a team or two this way. Makes shooting from behind barriers a little tougher thought.

 daedalus wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
I need to re-read the rules, again, then - you're saying a 2x man HW team is just one "guy" - no lasgun or anything from the "spotter"?

That's unfortunate.

M.

So, that's a little weird. Each model can fire all of its weapons each turn, except for pistols and grenades because they have special exceptions.

Heavy Weapon Teams in a Heavy Weapon Squad are specifically stated to be armed with a lasgun and frag grenades. By the above, they can fire one lasgun and the heavy weapon. Fine so far.

But if you look at infantry, it says each guardsman is armed with a lasgun and frag grenades. It doesn't say anything about what a heavy weapons team would be armed with in that situation. Then if you look at the wargear options, two guardsmen can form a heavy weapons team who must take an item from the heavy weapons list, but it never says that they can actually have that lasgun in that case.

Anyone reasonable? "Yeah, sure, a HWT has a lasgun whether it's in infantry or in a HWS, and it can fire that lasgun too. It's just an oversight. Obviously."

I only bring this up because 40k isn't well known for reasonable people.

I'm not going to mention RAW. But RAI, it's an interesting question. In 2nd edition, heavy weapons were considered 'cumbersome' and the IG needed a gunner and a loader to fire the heavy weapon. Which distinguished them from marine armies, where a single dude could carry a heavy weapon and shoot it on their own (because they were awesome). My interpretation (basec on old rules which i know don't necessarily mean anything now) is that both guys on a heavy weapon base are constantly working at the heavy weapon, in which case they don't have time/ability to fire a lasgun/s on it's own. But that's just my interpretation of it, clarification from the devs would go a long way here.

As for modelling them? I went with the large base with one guy operating the heavy weapon, and then the 'loader' modeled onto a 25mm base that sat on top of that (which could be removed as a wound counter).

As for reasonable, who defines what is reasonable? There are some places where honour-killing is reasonable, who's right there? There's no such thing as common sense, it's all subjective. That's why we rely on RAW.

 Infantryman wrote:
Are the 60mm bases new to this edition? I remember 4e having "large" bases but I swear they seemed smaller. Actually, I swear the new bases that came with my Guardsmen are thinner, too. Top-injected as well.

I'll see about weighting down the base - good suggestion - and working out how to get them individually based and mountable to the 60mm. Thing there is now they're a base-thickness higher, which means they'll poke out of LOS a bit more often...maybe.

M.

I started in 5th after the IG codex dropped. To the best of my knowledge it was that one that started it.

4100xpb wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
Are the 60mm bases new to this edition? I remember 4e having "large" bases but I swear they seemed smaller. Actually, I swear the new bases that came with my Guardsmen are thinner, too. Top-injected as well.

I'll see about weighting down the base - good suggestion - and working out how to get them individually based and mountable to the 60mm. Thing there is now they're a base-thickness higher, which means they'll poke out of LOS a bit more often...maybe.

M.

Go Steel Legion heavy bolter style. I think it looks awesome with the HB on the bipod and prone crew - I definitely plan on doing a team or two this way. Makes shooting from behind barriers a little tougher thought.

I had considered that, actually - and indeed I was originally going to use Steel Legion figs - but it would take some work to figure out how to get a guy to lay down like that, I think. In the near term, I'm only planning to bring a missile launcher in my two squads - assuming I bring a heavy weapon at all!

M.

IandI wrote:
It's supposed to be two guys on one base, and for morale purposes it's one model. The 60mm bases are wonky, to keep them from falling off ledges constantly I have an old metal loader glued as close to the front as looks cool and glue a couple of nickels to the front of the base to add weight. I have loads of the old metal heavy weapons but they just don't look as sweet as the mini diorama modern gun teams.

Ergo, the model can shoot both its Heavy Weapon and its Lasgun in the shooting phase?

This is how most people usually model it if they want to easily keep track of wounds by removing people.

 Esmer wrote:

IandI wrote:
It's supposed to be two guys on one base, and for morale purposes it's one model. The 60mm bases are wonky, to keep them from falling off ledges constantly I have an old metal loader glued as close to the front as looks cool and glue a couple of nickels to the front of the base to add weight. I have loads of the old metal heavy weapons but they just don't look as sweet as the mini diorama modern gun teams.

Ergo, the model can shoot both its Heavy Weapon and its Lasgun in the shooting phase?

Yes, of course.

 Torga_DW wrote:

I'm not going to mention RAW. But RAI, it's an interesting question. In 2nd edition, heavy weapons were considered 'cumbersome' and the IG needed a gunner and a loader to fire the heavy weapon. Which distinguished them from marine armies, where a single dude could carry a heavy weapon and shoot it on their own (because they were awesome). My interpretation (basec on old rules which i know don't necessarily mean anything now) is that both guys on a heavy weapon base are constantly working at the heavy weapon, in which case they don't have time/ability to fire a lasgun/s on it's own. But that's just my interpretation of it, clarification from the devs would go a long way here.

That's fine too. I don't fire the lasgun myself, because honestly, I don't feel like I need it. I wouldn't begrudge anyone who wanted to use it though, because it is RAW. And it's just a lasgun. Not going to profoundly change the outcome of the game.

As for modelling them? I went with the large base with one guy operating the heavy weapon, and then the 'loader' modeled onto a 25mm base that sat on top of that (which could be removed as a wound counter).

As for reasonable, who defines what is reasonable? There are some places where honour-killing is reasonable, who's right there? There's no such thing as common sense, it's all subjective. That's why we rely on RAW.

Well, I define what's reasonable.

I would agree that the "model" (both guardsman and the heavy weapon) could fire the heavy weapon and a lasgun. The only thing you'd need to remember is that this particular "model" can't be used to throw a grenade or you'd do so in place of both those weapons (i.e. the assistant gunner can't chuck a grenade while the gunner is firing, etc.).

The Eldar grav platform is much easier and simply written.

 Esmer wrote:

IandI wrote:
It's supposed to be two guys on one base, and for morale purposes it's one model. The 60mm bases are wonky, to keep them from falling off ledges constantly I have an old metal loader glued as close to the front as looks cool and glue a couple of nickels to the front of the base to add weight. I have loads of the old metal heavy weapons but they just don't look as sweet as the mini diorama modern gun teams.

Ergo, the model can shoot both its Heavy Weapon and its Lasgun in the shooting phase?

yep, they just have to target the same unit.

Think of it as the lasgun is designating a target for the heavy weapon

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Esmer wrote:

IandI wrote:
It's supposed to be two guys on one base, and for morale purposes it's one model. The 60mm bases are wonky, to keep them from falling off ledges constantly I have an old metal loader glued as close to the front as looks cool and glue a couple of nickels to the front of the base to add weight. I have loads of the old metal heavy weapons but they just don't look as sweet as the mini diorama modern gun teams.

Ergo, the model can shoot both its Heavy Weapon and its Lasgun in the shooting phase?

yep, they just have to target the same unit.

Think of it as the lasgun is designating a target for the heavy weapon

Nope.

"If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit."