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Pretty much the title, but;

Imperial missile launcher: S8, AP-2, Dd6
Ork Rokkit: S8, AP-2, D3

It just seems to me, that of all the armies in the game to get d6 damage, you'd think it would be Orks - they've been known in every previous edition for their ridiculous rules, as well as random effects.

Now, I haven't mathhammered what effect this would actually have; but it feels like Imperial missile launchers/other factions should get the 3 flat, whereas the Orks get a d6 instead - some rokkits are duds, and others are loaded with explosives. - This would also give them a tad bit of increased effectiveness across the board too; as vehicles aren't designed with wounds divisible by 3, which means that it takes 4 rokkits minimum (which is the entire crux of the issue tbh) to blow even the lowliest transport up, versus the 2 minimum (5+, 5+) of a missile launcher/lascannon.

I get their trying to move Orks identity away from "random", but...

Because no-one uses rokkits in the first place. They are flat damage because the randomness is already built into the abysmal BS of Orks.

And with so many armies having ways of making their units LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO HIT, rokkits aren't going to be used any time soon.

Damage 3 rokkits, while making them less random, also puts a limit on their damage potential. A flat 3 is slightly lower than a D6 average and dramatically cuts the max potential damage. With a unit full of Rokkits, that may have been the concern when writing the unit rules.

@BaconCatBug

Fair enough - Still though, d6 average is 3.5 > 3; 33% chance to do 1-2 damage (less), 17% chance to do 3 damage (same), and 50% to do 4-6 damage (up to double).

I'd take a 33% chance to do less damage, for a 66% chance to do the same, or up to double, any day of the week. Of course, you'd have to hit first... which as you said, can be literally impossible.

@Vaktathi

Imperial missile launchers have far greater range (I forget if it's 36" or 48" off the top of my head); which matters because they're 4/6+20 points (HWT), versus 17ppm for a Tankbusta - that said, you need to get the tankbustas in their 24" range, which means you need a trukk; which turns the price of a tankbusta (10 member squad, 0 squigs) into 170+85, or... 25ppm.

About the same price per model, once you factor in the necessary transport and everything. The only thing Tankbustas get is a 5% better hit rate than BS4+ (5+, rr = 55%, 4+ = 50%); but significantly reduced ability to hit targets if they have a -1 to hit, and flat out being unable to hit targets with a -2 to hit. They are also 1W, versus 2W (HWT), which matters significantly for small arms fire.

I think d6 tankbustas are fair. There's literally no other source of anti-vehicle weaponry in the Ork Index, as it currently stands.

I wonder if GW was maybe thinking that with Ork shooting already being so random due to bad BS that they'd try to give us a break and fix the damage so it's reliable? If that's the case I don't think it was a good idea.

Maybe they were trying to cut down on the amount of rolling to save time?

Either way, after accounting for all the misses, failures to wound and armor saves there aren't going to be that many damage rolls. I'd rather have d6 damage and the possibility of using a command point to re-roll a 1 or 2.

AS orks I'd much rather have the flat 3, that way when I do hit at least I know what I'm getting. Sure the average on a D6 is better, but When you hit so infrequently that isn't really all that relevant. IT would suck way more to hit with one of your 3 rokkit shots and then end up doing only 1 damage.

As an Ork player I strongly prefer the flat 3 damage. It might be very slightly weaker, but we have enough pointless randomness to deal with already. I also strongly prefer the Assault 3 weapon profile of a Big Shoota rather than the annoying Assault D6 profile of the Big Lobba.

I kind of prefer the flat 3 as well. It's decent without the potential randomness of D6s, though you do have a point that orks are known for randomness.

I remember charging a wraithknight with a gargantuan squiggoth and doing a whopping 3 damage with 3x D6 damage rolls.

I might prefer it was 4 damage, but eh. 3 is decent.

fe40k wrote:
@BaconCatBug

Fair enough - Still though, d6 average is 3.5 > 3; 33% chance to do 1-2 damage (less), 17% chance to do 3 damage (same), and 50% to do 4-6 damage (up to double).

I'd take a 33% chance to do less damage, for a 66% chance to do the same, or up to double, any day of the week. Of course, you'd have to hit first... which as you said, can be literally impossible.

@Vaktathi

Imperial missile launchers have far greater range (I forget if it's 36" or 48" off the top of my head); which matters because they're 4/6+20 points (HWT), versus 17ppm for a Tankbusta - that said, you need to get the tankbustas in their 24" range, which means you need a trukk; which turns the price of a tankbusta (10 member squad, 0 squigs) into 170+85, or... 25ppm.

About the same price per model, once you factor in the necessary transport and everything. The only thing Tankbustas get is a 5% better hit rate than BS4+ (5+, rr = 55%, 4+ = 50%); but significantly reduced ability to hit targets if they have a -1 to hit, and flat out being unable to hit targets with a -2 to hit. They are also 1W, versus 2W (HWT), which matters significantly for small arms fire.

I think d6 tankbustas are fair. There's literally no other source of anti-vehicle weaponry in the Ork Index, as it currently stands.

I dont think D6 tankbustas would be unfair, just throwing out what may have been the thinking. Lots of what GW does has weird logic behind it. That said, having the flat damage isnt awful either, it does provide some consistency, and that has uses as well, especially in an army otherwise known for randomness.

Nothing about Orks should ever be reliable :p

That said, it is a little weird the missile launcher has the same ST as a battle cannon off of a Russ. And that it takes 4 missiles to destroy something...

Vehicle/Anti-Vehicle warfare in this edition is strange.

And it will be here for years to come...

M.

I would prefer D6 but I also want tankbustas to have a heavy reduction in points. They just aren't worth taking this edition. Rokkitz should be a 5pt upgrade AT MOST! Tank busted should be 11-12 a model


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would prefer D6 but I also want tankbustas to have a heavy reduction in points. They just aren't worth taking this edition. Rokkitz should be a 5pt upgrade AT MOST! Tank bustas should be 11-12 a model

fe40k wrote:
Pretty much the title, but;

Imperial missile launcher: S8, AP-2, Dd6
Ork Rokkit: S8, AP-2, D3

It just seems to me, that of all the armies in the game to get d6 damage, you'd think it would be Orks - they've been known in every previous edition for their ridiculous rules, as well as random effects.

Now, I haven't mathhammered what effect this would actually have; but it feels like Imperial missile launchers/other factions should get the 3 flat, whereas the Orks get a d6 instead - some rokkits are duds, and others are loaded with explosives. - This would also give them a tad bit of increased effectiveness across the board too; as vehicles aren't designed with wounds divisible by 3, which means that it takes 4 rokkits minimum (which is the entire crux of the issue tbh) to blow even the lowliest transport up, versus the 2 minimum (5+, 5+) of a missile launcher/lascannon.

I get their trying to move Orks identity away from "random", but...

One does not questions ork logic, one simply believes things work. But here


From a game play stand point orkz need there piss poor shooting to be effective once it works.

Seriously? This is probably the *least* of the Ork's problems, like the house is on fire, but you're trying to save that ceramic cat figurine in the curio case.

As an aside, when someone says "nobody takes...." I often find myself saying "*I* do...."

stroller wrote:
As an aside, when someone says "nobody takes...." I often find myself saying "*I* do...."

Generally they are referring specifically to "competitive" lists when they say that. For instance, nobody takes meganobz, kanz, dreadz, burnas, or a number of other Ork units. Maybe you do, and maybe they do as well, just never in a tournament where you are actively trying to win.

I love my Mek list. I love my 12 kanz, 2 dreadz and naut. But I will never take them to a tournament because I know I will lose every time.

I think that one solution to fixing Rokkits might be to make them Assault d3 and Damage 2. The multiple shots would especially help non-Tankbusta models with Rokkits. The max-damage wouldn't be any higher than a d6 weapon, and while admittedly Assault d3 and 2 damage is more reliable than Heavy 1 and d6 damage, the short 24" range goes a long way towards offsetting that advantage.

I think that for many Ork blast weapons a shorter range but more attacks than their Imperial counterparts would be fitting both in terms of game play and fluff.

(I've said similar things in other threads. I apologize if I sound like a broken record.)

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I think that one solution to fixing Rokkits might be to make them Assault d3 and Damage 2. The multiple shots would especially help non-Tankbusta models with Rokkits. The max-damage wouldn't be any higher than a d6 weapon, and while admittedly Assault d3 and 2 damage is more reliable than Heavy 1 and d6 damage, the short 24" range goes a long way towards offsetting that advantage.

I think that for many Ork blast weapons a shorter range but more attacks than their Imperial counterparts would be fitting both in terms of game play and fluff.

(I've said similar things in other threads. I apologize if I sound like a broken record.)

Assault D3 means averaging 2 shots which means .6 hits with a flat two DMG. That means 6 rokkitz = 12 shots 4 hits and 8 dmg. Where as right now it's 6 shots 2 hits and 6 dmg on average. So not terrible for a boost but not nearly enough to make me want to take them. Maybe if paired with a hefty points reduction.

Rokkits are so, so bad this edition. I have no idea what GW was thinking.

 Red_Five wrote:
Rokkits are so, so bad this edition. I have no idea what GW was thinking.

I'm convinced at this point that GW selects the one employee who either hates Orkz or can't beat them and has that one person design the codex with the goal of nerfing anything he had a hard time with previously and giving minor buffs to units that are complete trash so they can basically pretend they tried to make Orkz better.

I'd honestly use more rokkits if they were D6 damage. Heck I'd field 30 or more of them. Until my last game I didn't really see a place for them in my army, this "change" would make them more exciting.

As with so much Ork stuff, I don’t think rokkits are inherently bad, just far too many points for what they do.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I kind of prefer the flat 3 as well. It's decent without the potential randomness of D6s, though you do have a point that orks are known for randomness.

This. I'd happily do 0.5 less wounds on average to be certain that I will never do only 1 or 2 damage. When shooting a vehicle with d6 damage weapons I never plan on doing >4 damage, but I do feel I have to plan for low damage rolls (in addition to poor shooting/wounding rolls).

Flat damage 3 also enables me to efficiently target multi-wound infantry like wraithguard. I would be hesitant to shoot them with d6 damage weapons, as rolling 4+ damage is pointless* while rolling 1-2 damage is essentially a wasted shot.

*assuming no fnp

It's more effective because of the reliability imo, although that is indeed very un-orky.

Don't forget, Ork rokkits are assault weapons, able to fire after advancing. Sure, you hit on a 6+, but being able to normally move and shoot at 5+ while guardsmen also hit with their missile launchers 5+.

Also, those pesky 2/3 wound models will be much easier to kill, as any D6 weapon will fail to kill a 2 wound model 33% of the time and a 3 wound model 50% of the time.

It kind of hilariously puts the rocket launcher in a sort of ideal position - hunting low wound, high armour save models, like terminators/Primaris...

I'd also like to point out that orks have quite a few options that only have 1-3 rokkits.
If you actually manage to hit something with a rokkits, at the very least that hit should matter.

Random stops being fun when units start being unreliable. The SAG was awesome because most of the mishaps actually did something good.

 Jidmah wrote:
I'd also like to point out that orks have quite a few options that only have 1-3 rokkits.
If you actually manage to hit something with a rokkits, at the very least that hit should matter.

Random stops being fun when units start being unreliable. The SAG was awesome because most of the mishaps actually did something good.

That's a fair point. Unfortunately now the only mishap is not generating enough shots and missing most all of those.
The only reason I am pro d6 damage is the off chance of getting 4 or 5 hits with rokkits. I mention d6 damage weapons and it gets a psychological reaction from other players I know. Just like now though you need several hits to get through to even matter.

I just wish everything did flat damage.

feth all the D6/D3 damage nonsense.

Lazy, gakky rule writing.

 Jidmah wrote:
I'd also like to point out that orks have quite a few options that only have 1-3 rokkits.
If you actually manage to hit something with a rokkits, at the very least that hit should matter.

Random stops being fun when units start being unreliable. The SAG was awesome because most of the mishaps actually did something good.

Kill yourself
Kill your own units
Your opponent gets to kill your units
Transport yourself to die in CC
Become a small blast
Hit only 1 model.

The only good role out of all of them was double sixes which made the weapon a destroyer weapon.

I wish Vindicators had flat 3 Damage
rolling one shot and missing it is bad enough, but the possibility to roll 1 damage after you finally manage to hit and wound is just the worst.
And it is a heavy d3 24" gun that is supposed to shatter fortifications.

SemperMortis wrote:
Transport yourself to die in CC
Become a small blast
Hit only 1 model.

The only good role out of all of them was double sixes which made the weapon a destroyer weapon.

All of those are better than 8th edition SAG.

The entire ork army needs to have the same rule dark reapers have. Except it's on a 5+. Orks don't aim - they fill the air with lead.