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So, AM is evidently competitive, and Marines are not. Who else is?

Nids just got their Codex so it remains to be seen I guess, and Orks are about to get theirs so it might take a bit to get a real sense of them.

Chaos has their Codex, but I haven't seen much talk on them here as late, and I don't think anyone else has gotten theirs yet?

M.

Chaos Tzeetch Daemons/CSM and Death Guard are meta, mostly because of Mortarian, and Malific Lord spam.

To be honest, I would say that Space Marines will remain competitive in this Edition, but it will be harder to stray from a relatively specific sub-set of lists because the other Codeces are more competitive this Edition. In casual play, I maintain that Space Marines are just as competitive as they have ever been.

Also: Black Templars lists - especially those that involve more Crusader Squads and Land Raiders of all types are now more competitive due to things like the changes to Vehicles, the changes to Saves, etc etc etc. So I expect to see more Black Templar players joining the hobby or emerging from the woodwork.

Eldar and Nids will be competitive. That's my prediction. Especially nids.

Tyranids are animals. Played against a weaker list of them and was impressed.

The big lists are:

AM soup (mix n match Guilliman, Celestine, AM squads, mortars, arty carriages, etc etc)

Chaos Soup (mortarion, Magnus, m'lords, ARK, etc)

Ynnarilequins (Ynnari with Harlequins plus some Dark Reapers for the double tapping, maybe Hemlocks)

Maybe Nids alpha strike? Maybe Eldar Alaitoc? Time Will tell on those.

Tournament data so far puts the top contenders as Chaos (soup lists of some variety), IG (mostly soup, the occasional mono sneaking through), Marines (used to be RG, then G-man Assbacks), and Eldar (whatever they're calling themselves these days in whatever mix they can).

Hopefully Nids are done well. Seems like they have some strong points that could upset the current tourney scene, but we'll see how it plays out.

•Imperial Soup
•Imperial Guard (good enough on its own that it's well worth mentioning as a separate entity from soup)
•Malefic Lord Spam
•Ynnari
•Tzeentch
•Primarch builds of all three flavours

There are other armies that can run some competent lists, but not the sort of thing you would expect to see regularly topping tourney results.

Tyranids are looking to be really strong and versatile, but mostly reasonable outside of a few polarized matchups. It's entirely up in the air as to how much of a wave they'll make at this point, however.

Craftworlds are pretty solid for the most part, but pale in comparison to Ynnari, with the codex mostly functioning as a point-cost buff and stratagem access for Ynnari armies. The only things that Craftworld armies have access to that Ynnari lacks are faction traits, Battle Focus, relics, and the Avatar of Khaine, all of which range from solid-but-not-exceptional to absolute garbage. So while Craftworlds might be competent on their own, they'll be made mostly irrelevant outside of providing vehicles with Fieldcraft due to the existence of Ynnari lists.

I have found SM to be quite competitive so far. They are quite versatile and have some nifty stratagems.

 Infantryman wrote:
So, AM is evidently competitive, and Marines are not. Who else is?

Litterally everyone that already has the codex.

Pretty sure the Guilliman gun castle is here to stay, even if he goes up by 25 points or so.

Azrael/Darkshroud gun castle is nearly competitive straight from the index. If they get good stratagems and a few point adjustments, they might be in the running as well.

Both, admittedly, tend to do better in straight 40K without the deluge of ITC houserules popular on the other side of the Atlantic in particular, which tend to give huge units of cheap chaff an additional boost (not like they'd needed that).

Raven Guard pure-Primaris took 2nd place at GW's Heat 1.

 Blackie wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
So, AM is evidently competitive, and Marines are not. Who else is?

Litterally everyone that already has the codex.

Don't see much mechanicus nor grey knights on top spots of tournaments. Non-Guillimann marines are also rather rare.

 Fafnir wrote:

Craftworlds are pretty solid for the most part, but pale in comparison to Ynnari, with the codex mostly functioning as a point-cost buff and stratagem access for Ynnari armies. The only things that Craftworld armies have access to that Ynnari lacks are faction traits, Battle Focus, relics, and the Avatar of Khaine, all of which range from solid-but-not-exceptional to absolute garbage. So while Craftworlds might be competent on their own, they'll be made mostly irrelevant outside of providing vehicles with Fieldcraft due to the existence of Ynnari lists.

Didn't people make a huge fuss about how alatoic has nigh unkillable planes? (and rangers I guess) you can't enjoy fieldcraft as yanari.
Craftworld traits on general are pretty good. Losing the trait, the focus and being forced to take a yannari named dude feels like an actual trade for me, that some armies won't like making.
Saim Hann for example, strikes me as a potential to be a high tier list, heavy on shining spears and vypers. Time will tell.


Also, far too early to tell if nids can go toe to toe with top lists yet. Especially if mixed with cults.

 BoomWolf wrote:


Didn't people make a huge fuss about how alatoic has nigh unkillable planes? (and rangers I guess) you can't enjoy fieldcraft as yanari.

Craftworld traits on general are pretty good. Losing the trait, the focus and being forced to take a yannari named dude feels like an actual trade for me, that some armies won't like making.
Saim Hann for example, strikes me as a potential to be a high tier list, heavy on shining spears and vypers. Time will tell.


Also, far too early to tell if nids can go toe to toe with top lists yet. Especially if mixed with cults.

Yeah. But planes (and vehicles) don't benefit from the Ynnari Strength-of-Death either, while Ynnari Fire Dragons, Wraith-things, etc.. going in for the 7" Ynnari-thing don't benefit from Fieldcraft. So you mix Alaitoc planes (and possibly Wave Serpents) with Ynnari Infantry. And having at least 1 Alaitoc detachment (say, an Airwing) also gives you access to all the Stratagems from the Codex, which you can still play on any Ynnari unit that has the Aeldari keywold (e.g. Ynnari Fire Dragons or Wraithblades).

Imperial Guard is very competitive. They have the second-best smite bot, the best screening unit and the best tanks. They also have a lot of nice Forge World pay-to-win options.

Space Marines are also competitive, and Guilliman is a stable of many top Tournament lists. Space Marines benefits more from souping with Guard than the other way around, though.

Chaos are also very competitive, and, like imperium, Chaos has access to some very powerful soup shenanigans. Like the 3++ trick on Magnus, and the Alpha Legion Bezerker-fest. And then they have Malefic Lords, easily the most broken unit in the game right now. Obliterators also became super-nasty post-codex.

Eldar soup is also competitive, especially with the Craftworld codex inadvertently buffing the already strong Ynnari lists. Whether pure Craftworld will make it into the competitive meta remains to be seen.

Tyranid is the new kid on the codex-train. Their codex looks good, but it is still to early to tell if they are competitive at the top. My guess is that they are.

tneva82 wrote:


Don't see much mechanicus nor grey knights on top spots of tournaments.

Those are armies that are not quite common. Only a few people play them compared to the classic factions like SM, eldar, tyranids, orks, etc. Both of them can be allied to other imperium stuff while remaining mechanicus or grey kight lists and be competitive.

tneva82 wrote:


Non-Guillimann marines are also rather rare.

Because guilliman is the shiny new toy of SM and many people, especially the americans, love huge superheroes and centerpiece models. SM have other overpowered units in their codex, but of course guilliman is one of their best options. SM have also access to powerful allies as well. In fact even many tournament AM lists have allies, it doesn't mean that pure AM lists are not competitive.

 Blackie wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Don't see much mechanicus nor grey knights on top spots of tournaments.

Those are armies that are not quite common. Only a few people play them compared to the classic factions like SM, eldar, tyranids, orks, etc. Both of them can be allied to other imperium stuff while remaining mechanicus or grey kight lists and be competitive.

Thats pretty close to Tradito levels of goalpost moving.

 Blackie wrote:
Those are armies that are not quite common. Only a few people play them compared to the classic factions like SM, eldar, tyranids, orks, etc. Both of them can be allied to other imperium stuff while remaining mechanicus or grey kight lists and be competitive.

Or they aren't competive. You know saying "where there is smoke there is fire"?

Because guilliman is the shiny new toy of SM and many people, especially the americans, love huge superheroes and centerpiece models. SM have other overpowered units in their codex, but of course guilliman is one of their best options. SM have also access to powerful allies as well. In fact even many tournament AM lists have allies, it doesn't mean that pure AM lists are not competitive.

Or because tournament players have ran it over and figured he's so good for points that NOT having him is seriously bad idea. You know for the players aiming for tournament win fluff(and this includes being superhero...) etc are irrelevant. What matters is if it increases your army's chances to win by even 0.001%.

" SM have other overpowered units in their codex"

Such as?

tneva82 wrote:


Or because tournament players have ran it over and figured he's so good for points that NOT having him is seriously bad idea. You know for the players aiming for tournament win fluff(and this includes being superhero...) etc are irrelevant. What matters is if it increases your army's chances to win by even 0.001%.

Well he's overpowered, I agree, actually he's the most irritating thing in 40k IMHO But if guilliman is extremely good it doesn't mean that a SM list without him can't be competitive. Maybe a little less competitive but still quite powerful. AM also have a lot of good/very good options but in a tournament you won't see them, only the few overpowered stuff, but AM can be competitive even without spamming their best 4-5 units. SM and eldar are on the same spot, they have plenty of good options, basically their entire codex is at least viable. Probably even tyranids, but I haven't faced them after the new codex so I won't include them, but many players consider them top tiers and I'm sure they can have more than a tournament winning list.

Pure CW Eldar will NOT be top tier in this edition. Though we'll probably see plenty of lists that include Alaitoc Flyers / Wave serpents to unlock CW stratagems with a Ynnari core. But Aeldari as a whole do not have cheap screening units, which will hurt them in the long run.

Chaos and Nids seem posed to take top tier in 8E, which makes sense considering how low they have been over the past 2-3 editions.
Guard are already top tier even after the Commissar/Conscript nerf. Marines will havce a top tier showing as long as Bobby G exists, though it is clearly debatable if Marines as a whole are top tier (I, for one am positive some form of Marines will remain top tier, even if it is through an as yet released Codex)

-

I think you could build some very strong Eldar lists and sneak in a tournament win or two, but I don't see them very over-powered. Wave Serpent/Dark Reaper spam is strong, but not really game-winning in many cases.

Tyranids at a glance look really friggin' strong. AM are probably still king of the dice-pile strategy.

 Elbows wrote:
I think you could build some very strong Eldar lists and sneak in a tournament win or two, but I don't see them very over-powered. Wave Serpent/Dark Reaper spam is strong, but not really game-winning in many cases.

I agree with Galef than in most cases, a mix of CWE and Ynnari will be superior to pure CWE. With the current rules, you can basically choose between SftD or a Craftworld attribute on a unit-per-unit basis, while retaining access to stratagems. Some units will almost always be better off with SftD.

AM is the strongest for sure which is pretty obvious. I am thinking Nids will be top tier as they have great rules for blobs.

I am still playtesting. But it was promised that Nids would be top tier when 8th dropped and look where that went. This codex has some good stuff. But a lot of our units remain wholly unplayable, and we have a limited selection of usable HQs. Much of our good stuff can be shot off the table as it's >9w.

I have this disgusting feeling that the competitive tyranid list will be:

Tyranid supreme command - all flying hive tyrants.

The rest is imperial guard by way of GSC allies, for the usual plasma/mortar/taurox nonsense.

Have they announced the ork codex? I must have missed it (or the leak).