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Personal opinion: the points changes should be made available free. Everything else in the book is fair game to charge money for. And ultimately, GW has already set the precedent for updated points being free. Look at document that came out with points for the Primaris Space Marine units.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Personal opinion: the points changes should be made available free. Everything else in the book is fair game to charge money for. And ultimately, GW has already set the precedent for updated points being free. Look at document that came out with points for the Primaris Space Marine units.

Agreed. Points changes should be made free, even if it is just the point deltas rather than full points.

I wonder, would there be any legal issue (other than the usual "you can sue anyone for anything to bleed you dry" issue) of posting the points deltas (e.g. saying X is +3 points) so that you'd need the original book anyway?

Well, they did update 6th edition supplement ebooks to 7th edition... not for the better, but they did.


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 BaconCatBug wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Personal opinion: the points changes should be made available free. Everything else in the book is fair game to charge money for. And ultimately, GW has already set the precedent for updated points being free. Look at document that came out with points for the Primaris Space Marine units.

Agreed. Points changes should be made free, even if it is just the point deltas rather than full points.

I wonder, would there be any legal issue (other than the usual "you can sue anyone for anything to bleed you dry" issue) of posting the points deltas (e.g. saying X is +3 points) so that you'd need the original book anyway?

There probably is, but considering that you can get pretty much any 8th edition dataslate via google or bing image search, I think they have toned down a bit on their "Sue all the people!"-strategy.

If they reissued the BRB, Index and/or Codex with the extra content from FAQ and chapter approved and gave you a discount for returning your old one to them, then that would be cool. Even it's it's only 10% off, some people would take that. It might also mean people actually going into a Games Workshop to exchange it and they got to be "green" and recycle the old books. GW will still make money from it, look generous/sympathetic to their customers, environmentally friendly and would get people to engage their staff in their shops or online (which leads to extra sales).

Also they could produce stickers (for a small price in store, free PDF printable online, or even in White Dwarf) so that you can amend your own BRB or Codex. I'm sure they used to do something similar in the past.

Aside from that, any errata should be issued for free in a PDF version, so one can print them off and take them if required.

What they should not do is what they do currently...
You need a BRB, BRB FAQ, index, index FAQ, Codex, Codex FAQ, Chapter Approved.

It should just be BRB 8.1 and Codex 8.1 (or DataCards 8.1). Chapter Approved could then be just for fluff, painting schemes, extra objectives, game types, but not compulsory. You should feel like you're missing out for not buying it, but not actively penalized by GW!

If they keep producing updates and errata, the only timean editions rules are "stable" is when that edition has been replaced by the next one and GW stop supporting it.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Trade_Prince wrote:
This stuff costs money and time to produce. Why would it be free?

For the same reason that you don't pay for a windows update.

Except the windows update is a piece of software, this is a piece of hardware.

It didn't need to be hardware - that was their decision. This could easily be a free downloadable PDF or handled just like an errata. It is essentially an errata. GW just takes this opportunity to make money. Which is fine - they can do whatever they want. It's just very disingenuous to charge people for something that should have been included in their original release.

Points changes, balance passes, and clarifications should be free.

I wouldn't complain if the new stuff was free, but I'm not fussed if they charge for it. I'll hold wait and see if they charge a more standard exorbitant amount or its a fair price for the content.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Trade_Prince wrote:
This stuff costs money and time to produce. Why would it be free?

For the same reason that you don't pay for a windows update.

Except the windows update is a piece of software, this is a piece of hardware.

It's hardware cause gw opted so. On same logic ms could put updates on dvd @50 euro


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TarkinLarson wrote:
If they reissued the BRB, Index and/or Codex with the extra content from FAQ and chapter approved and gave you a discount for returning your old one to them, then that would be cool. Even it's it's only 10% off, some people would take that. It might also mean people actually going into a Games Workshop to exchange it and they got to be "green" and recycle the old books. GW will still make money from it, look generous/sympathetic to their customers, environmentally friendly and would get people to engage their staff in their shops or online (which leads to extra sales).

I could go for that. Up to date book over pile of erratas. Especially as gw didn't stick with point changes only

Grimlineman wrote:
That interesting I only been playing a couple years so I didn't know this history.
And I guess I should have explained things better in my OP I'm not asking for a free Chapter approved physical book. I would just like to see the rules/stats I already paid 80 dollars(between index and codex even more if you count rule book) for just a couple months ago be updated
in a way that the cost to them is min (as in online pdf as others have mentioned) and free for me sine I already paid this edtion. But from a company stand point I realize this brings in zero additional revenue.
I see both sides of the debate and I'm sorry some take it so personal like my question was a direct insult at them. I'm excited to see what comes in the book although I feel like its packaged to re-sell me something I already bought I will give it a chance.
This is my first and last time starting a thread like this.

Hey, do not get upset with the replies!
It may sound personal but I suspect it is not so much.
It was a valid observation and as stated, you were not aware of the rather large history of GW and it's 40k game.

I believe the Codex books get updated in ebook and epub form, correct me if I am wrong: so some of your concerns are addressed there.
The FAQ's have been updated at an "insane" pace compared to their prior publication habits.
It used to be occasional updates would come to us in White Dwarf.
They also became a place for major changes to the rules to be published.
8th is moving along as fast as 3rd edition felt so long ago.

Chapter approved was a way to bring all those updates together into one book.
Going from past memory, I liked those publications and in light of the changes lately, I would expect them to be pretty good.

tneva82 wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Trade_Prince wrote:
This stuff costs money and time to produce. Why would it be free?

For the same reason that you don't pay for a windows update.

Except the windows update is a piece of software, this is a piece of hardware.

It's hardware cause gw opted so. On same logic ms could put updates on dvd @50 euro

Windows Update is free because it includes fixing security issues with real-world financial implications, which affect a gigantic user base of both consumers and commercial clients. Microsoft wouldn't get away with charging for it because the minute something like WannaCry happened and they told big businesses "you'll need to pay us €50 per install to fix this" they'd be sued into oblivion.

Video game patches exist as an ongoing service because consumers expect them, and in the age of e-sports companies fighting for market share of the kind of highly competitive games which get visibility in that space have a vested interest in being seen to apply fixes and balance changes. Alternatively the cost of producing them may be offset - games which see frequent updates like WoW tend to be on subscription models, or you see pairing of FLC and DLC, where the purchasers of DLC fund the provision of FLC.

It's not really a fair comparison to luxury goods in a niche hobby. The expectations of "the community" are impossible to meet anyway - simultaneously GW fix everything faster and engage more with customers, and yet when they do those things they're accused of not having gotten it right the first time, and it should never have needed fixing in the first place, and so on. And of course they should definitely never, ever charge for anything. I'm surprised they bother at all.

On the same token Corrode - should they also charge for erratas? You make a pretty good case for charging for everything. Including basic updates to rules that should have been worked out in the supposed "play testing" phase.

 Xenomancers wrote:
On the same token Corrode - should they also charge for erratas? You make a pretty good case for charging for everything. Including basic updates to rules that should have been worked out in the supposed "play testing" phase.

For errata specifically, no - because those are supposedly things which were wrong with the book in its printed form, like e.g. failing to include points costs for Ironclad Assault Launchers. In that case you're correcting a fault with the product as shipped vs. the product as intended, no different than if you'd sold someone a red chair when they ordered a green one, or missing a part. FAQs fall into a similar area where they're clarifying something in the original product. In any case, GW have been more responsive than they ever have before in providing FAQ/errata free of charge. On the other hand Chapter Approved is a new product with more in it than just some revised points costs - at which point it's reasonable to charge for it.

Errata should be released for free. The dataslates for all the units should be released for free. The dataslates should be updated regularly with the errata changes to any of the rules wording.

The free rules should be playable for free when you buy a box of models.

Points are in a codex you have to pay for. The extra wargear options not on the dataslates are in the codex. Point adjustments being something you have to buy in Chapter Approved is fine because you had no access to points without going through the pay wall anyway.

 Corrode wrote:

Windows Update is free because it includes fixing security issues with real-world financial implications, which affect a gigantic user base of both consumers and commercial clients. Microsoft wouldn't get away with charging for it because the minute something like WannaCry happened and they told big businesses "you'll need to pay us €50 per install to fix this" they'd be sued into oblivion..

And microsoft produces luxury product not essential. You don\t NEED any of their products to run a computer. Customers could just as well pick up free option so it's not like m$ would be black mailing.

And as for chapter approved having new stuff and thus can be charged yes charge for new stuff but these are bugs in your product you are then charging more for fixes. Which are pretty much mandatory. The new stuff could be 100% utter useless garbage and it would still sell as there's not much choice for players. It's pay or don't play in any leagues, tournaments, FLGS's etc. For many their models would become useless book weights without buying the errata.

Hrm, for lots of purposes, Microsoft is pretty mandatory Particularly anything business related. There's a reason no competent business uses Open Office instead of MS office programs like Excel, and why basically nobody uses Macs in a business environment outside of a few small programming and graphics niches. Linux remains the domain of IT departments almost exclusively. Most any consumer computer people will buy will be running MS software, not alternatives, except those that want to look trendy and spend twice as much for the same hardware to get a sleeker looking plastic bevel screen with a fruit logo. Theoretically MS may not be necessary, but as a practical matter, it is necessary for the overwhelmingly vast majority of users

New content you should pay for if it's in a book format.

But rules updates and point changes should be free, as a part of the errata they publish. Since you need this to play. And you need a codex, because it has your stratagems. So now we'll get back to needing 2 books at minimum to play your army. That becomes unwieldy.

I think the points adjustments should be a free release, but the rest of it has a fair bit of work put into it. Stratagems, rules, apoc updates, etc, it's a decent supplement.

But hell, is it $50? The indexes were only around $20, and had complete rulesets for multiple armies.

It will probably cost like the General's Handbook, so 35$, 25€ and... I don't know how many pounds.

 Lance845 wrote:
Errata should be released for free. The dataslates for all the units should be released for free. The dataslates should be updated regularly with the errata changes to any of the rules wording.

The free rules should be playable for free when you buy a box of models.

Points are in a codex you have to pay for. The extra wargear options not on the dataslates are in the codex. Point adjustments being something you have to buy in Chapter Approved is fine because you had no access to points without going through the pay wall anyway.

I bought a Russ box and it had the data sheet for it at the back of the assembly instruction - is that not normal?

M.

 Infantryman wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Errata should be released for free. The dataslates for all the units should be released for free. The dataslates should be updated regularly with the errata changes to any of the rules wording.

The free rules should be playable for free when you buy a box of models.

Points are in a codex you have to pay for. The extra wargear options not on the dataslates are in the codex. Point adjustments being something you have to buy in Chapter Approved is fine because you had no access to points without going through the pay wall anyway.

I bought a Russ box and it had the data sheet for it at the back of the assembly instruction - is that not normal?

M.

GW has been reboxing the 40K line to include the datasheets. Thats why product keeps going out of stock while its being reboxed.

I could see the points adjustment being free but new rules/ lore should cost money. Also if all you want from it is points just simply wait for battle scribe to update points then you won't have to pay for it or just photocopy a friends.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Trade_Prince wrote:
This stuff costs money and time to produce. Why would it be free?

For the same reason that you don't pay for a windows update.

I think this is the most salient point, and the one I agree with most wholeheartedly. Chapter Approved really is functionally a patch.

I think the appropriate thing to do would be to give away the PDF for free, and sell the paper copies to people who prefer those, since of course there were manufacturing costs.

The whole point of stuff like Chapter Approved, and the rules in general, is to move product, and the product is space marines warhammer 40k models. Adding a needless paywall probably hurts the bottom lime more than it helps. Apparently all of these people screaming about how crazy it would be for a business to give anything away for free are unaware of the concept of a loss leader, which is pretty damn ironic a few days before Black Friday.

They should PDF the points changes, and post that. I can see charging for a bunch of Traits and Stratagems and missions. I may wish the Traits and Stratagems were released free, but I can understand that.

THe point changes, though, would set great precedent on GW supporting balance without always holding out their hands.

 Ouze wrote:
The whole point of stuff like Chapter Approved, and the rules in general, is to move product, and the product is space marines warhammer 40k models. Adding a needless paywall probably hurts the bottom lime more than it helps. Apparently all of these people screaming about how crazy it would be for a business to give anything away for free are unaware of the concept of a loss leader, which is pretty damn ironic a few days before Black Friday.

GW seems to be running on the idea that customers are limited on number of ITEMS they buy and not money they spend. So they figure "let's see. If we can force players to buy book that's mandatory for 30$ we get 30$ more per player" forgetting that 30$ is 30$ less they spend on say miniatures. And can even result in people buying LESS as they are less interested in playing in public events(tournaments, leagues, pick up games in FLGS) and thus are less interested in buying more units as well.

I have never been so excited about a game release that I have no intention of buying!

 Ouze wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Trade_Prince wrote:
This stuff costs money and time to produce. Why would it be free?

For the same reason that you don't pay for a windows update.

I think this is the most salient point, and the one I agree with most wholeheartedly. Chapter Approved really is functionally a patch.

I think the appropriate thing to do would be to give away the PDF for free, and sell the paper copies to people who prefer those, since of course there were manufacturing costs.

The whole point of stuff like Chapter Approved, and the rules in general, is to move product, and the product is space marines warhammer 40k models. Adding a needless paywall probably hurts the bottom lime more than it helps. Apparently all of these people screaming about how crazy it would be for a business to give anything away for free are unaware of the concept of a loss leader, which is pretty damn ironic a few days before Black Friday.

The problem with this argument is that it ignores a few things:
1) We know GW is in the process of doing an army builder that will be free online, like the Warscroll Builder for Age of Sigmar. It's not an actual substitute for a Codex like AoS has, but it's something that we know is underway and will depend on completion of the codices.
2) They've already put points up for some units for free online.

I expect points tweaks to be in FAQs for the indices, but nothing more.

Not sure how them releasing a couple of units for free is ignoring my point, which is that they should give this entire book away for free digitally and at a minor cost for print. If anything, them doing so is conceding that I'm right on principle and they just haven't gone to the same degree.

So far as some future project, well, that's a future project and this is now so I have to form an opinion based on the facts as they lay, not as they might be at some undetermined future date.


Selling some new minor rules and rulebook and codex patches is essentially an EA move. How well loved is EA? As I said, I think a much better play would be to release the rules and mechanics as a free PDF, and then sell the book - maybe include some art and lore as well to add value. The patches to remedy issues in the game really shouldn't be a revenue driving vehicle. Selling these poorly written and playtested books is a sucker's business and breeds more resentment than enthusiasm.

The rulebooks exist to move models, and they should be geared to do exactly that.

 Ouze wrote:
Not sure how them releasing a couple of units for free is ignoring my point, which is that they should give this entire book away for free digitally and at a minor cost for print. If anything, them doing so is conceding that I'm right on principle and they just haven't gone to the same degree.

The point that you seem to be missing is this:
The entire book is not points. It's not $35 for points and Apocalypse blurbs and the VDR rules. You're looking at something probably around 170-180 pages.
Points are, if the General's Handbook is anything to go by(which it likely is since that's the price point and other mechanics that they've said this Chapter Approved matches), likely going to be around 24-30 pages. It's just tables like that download I linked since the models themselves are intended to have the rules within the boxes.

I get that the points and stuff should be free. They very likely will be. Once the updated points hit in General's Handbook, they were put on the Warscroll Builder app as well.

So far as some future project, well, that's a future project and this is now so I have to form an opinion based on the facts as they lay, not as they might be at some undetermined future date.

Then I have to form an opinion based on the facts that people don't fething read the Community blurbs or bother to ask people who have experience with the General's Handbook for their thoughts as to what to expect. There's a whole forum here that you can ask.

Selling some new minor rules and rulebook and codex patches is essentially an EA move. How well loved is EA? As I said, I think a much better play would be to release the rules and mechanics as a free PDF, and then sell the book - maybe include some art and lore as well to add value. The patches to remedy issues in the game really shouldn't be a revenue driving vehicle. Selling these poorly written and playtested books is a sucker's business and breeds more resentment than enthusiasm.

The rulebooks exist to move models, and they should be geared to do exactly that.

EA, like GW, could give away a box labeled "FREE PUPPIES" and people would bitch about the fact that they have to pay for vet bills or that they like cats better.

Right now? People are throwing a hissy fit because they might have to pay to get points updates. Oh noes!

 Vaktathi wrote:
Hrm, for lots of purposes, Microsoft is pretty mandatory Particularly anything business related. There's a reason no competent business uses Open Office instead of MS office programs like Excel, and why basically nobody uses Macs in a business environment outside of a few small programming and graphics niches. Linux remains the domain of IT departments almost exclusively. Most any consumer computer people will buy will be running MS software, not alternatives, except those that want to look trendy and spend twice as much for the same hardware to get a sleeker looking plastic bevel screen with a fruit logo. Theoretically MS may not be necessary, but as a practical matter, it is necessary for the overwhelmingly vast majority of users

underlined for hilarity. I grew up an currently live in the Silicon Valley (San jo) and hate everything with that fruit logo. At school we had them shoved down our throats, my dad asked me what kind of computer we should get, I said "anything but that Apple crap". That was 1989.


Anyway back on topic, I'm looking forward to ChapApp and the new stuff in it. If it has balance related stuff that's just whipped cream on top of the additions to the game.

Chapter approved factions that are getting rules is finally shown. Literally not a single codex update, its fething ALMOST nothing. Just Index 1.5 to pick the pockets of the factions without codices yet.

Disgusting.


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Also, GK not getting True Grit is a slap in the face.

It seemed like ages ago that 8th edition was going to be this new streamlined game which would be easy for new players to pick up because they wouldn't need to buy 3 books to play...