Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
Watching the movie, while fun, I was perplexed by several issues, these may be oveboars but they stick out to me
Spoiler:
First, what is with Thanos and this "half of life must die" thing? I get his thing was originally for Death, but as is in the movie, it makes no sense. Killing off half of all life for "balance" is a stupid idea. It assumes theres imbalance everywhere in the first place, which is almost certainly not true, and killing half of everything randomly isnt going to return to any sort of balance (especially in outliers that are more negatively or positively hit by the randomness), and well...life reproduces fast...he's gonna have to keep flicking his fingers every few years. None of that makes any sense.
Three times an infinity stone is given up in like 60 seconds or less with the most cursory of torture by Thanos of people's friends/family. Loki, Strange and Gamora all do this. People who know exactly what Thanos will do, how powerful these items are, etc, and they roll over rather disturbingly quickly.
With Dr.Strange...he has the Infinity stone for time...he can control and command causality, as Thanos clearly displays at the end...and never uses it for much of...anything? One would think that would be an ultimate trump card when the fundamental nature of cause and effect are bound to your whim.
The Wakanda battle made little sense also. It was cool to see all the hand to hand fighting, but a modern military would have just blasted all those gribblies with automatic weapons, artillery, mortars, armor, etc, why would an even more technologically advanced civilization array for battle in preindustrial ranks to fight in melee combat like that?
Actually, more to the point with the Wakanda battle, for all their prattle about "not trading lives", the all sure seemed to be ok with trading lots of Wakandan lives to save Vision...
Finally, why does the Infinity Stones abilities with Thanos seem to mostly manifest in the ability to just punch harder?
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
I suspect Thanos will come to learn that life doesn't become more fair just because there's less of it. I do kind of find it funny that Thanos presumably disintegrated half the Asguardians, after having his men kill half of them on the ship that consisted of the half that survived Hela. Hopefully the remaining eighth are doing alright.
First, what is with Thanos and this "half of life must die" thing? I get his thing was originally for Death, but as is in the movie, it makes no sense. Killing off half of all life for "balance" is a stupid idea. It assumes theres imbalance everywhere in the first place, which is almost certainly not true, and killing half of everything randomly isnt going to return to any sort of balance (especially in outliers that are more negatively or positively hit by the randomness), and well...life reproduces fast...he's gonna have to keep flicking his fingers every few years. None of that makes any sense.
Thanos can't see that there could be other solutions. It's a limitation of his own mind and his own pride and his own megalomania. He saw what was happening to his own people. He came up with a solution. They called him mad, and then they met the end he predicted they would. To him this was justification. So he expanded his now justified solution to a universal scale but refused to have the universe face the same "inevitable" end that his people did.
Once Thanos has the gauntlet he could do anything. He could double the size of the universe and all it's resources. But he can't see that. All he can see is that he was right before and he won't let anything stop him from being right now.
Three times an infinity stone is given up in like 60 seconds or less with the most cursory of torture by Thanos of people's friends/family. Loki, Strange and Gamora all do this. People who know exactly what Thanos will do, how powerful these items are, etc, and they roll over rather disturbingly quickly.
With Dr.Strange...he has the Infinity stone for time...he can control and command causality, as Thanos clearly displays at the end...and never uses it for much of...anything? One would think that would be an ultimate trump card when the fundamental nature of cause and effect are bound to your whim.
Gamora knew she would be too weak and give it up. This is foreshadowed VERY well when she asks starlord to do her a favor.
Loki legitimately cares about Thor at this point and he thought he could take out Thanos and tried. He was wrong.
Dr. Strange tells Tony... "This was the only way" for a reason. The path they are on now is the only path where they win.
The Wakanda battle made little sense also. It was cool to see all the hand to hand fighting, but a modern military would have just blasted all those gribblies with automatic weapons, artillery, mortars, armor, etc, why would an even more technologically advanced civilization array for battle in preindustrial ranks to fight in melee combat like that?
A more technologically advanced people who do not and have not participated in a war since preindustrial times.
Actually, more to the point with the Wakanda battle, for all their prattle about "not trading lives", the all sure seemed to be ok with trading lots of Wakandan lives to save Vision...
They are not trying to trade lives. Their intent to to hold the barrier. And killing vision to get rid of the stone wouldn't stop Thanos's army. It would just get Thanos doing it the old hard way again. That battle was happening regardless. So you either kill your friend to stop the gauntlet from being completed and then fight for your lives in the war for half your species or you fight the war for half your species while trying to save your friend and eliminate the potential for the gauntlet.
Finally, why does the Infinity Stones abilities with Thanos seem to mostly manifest in the ability to just punch harder?
A limitation of Thanos himself. I suspect that he mostly doesn't WANT to be in fights and be flashy and showy with it. Every time he gets really creative with the gems is either when he first gets it (the reality stone) or when hes facing someone/s who are giving him a real run (the titan fight particularly vs Strange).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/07 22:55:13
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
I’m curious how they’re going to resolve the snap in Agents of Shield. They’ve directly referenced that the events of the movie are currently unfolding on the show, stating that Thanos’ forces were attacking the planet elsewhere at this very moment.
Finally, why does the Infinity Stones abilities with Thanos seem to mostly manifest in the ability to just punch harder?
A limitation of Thanos himself. I suspect that he mostly doesn't WANT to be in fights and be flashy and showy with it. Every time he gets really creative with the gems is either when he first gets it (the reality stone) or when hes facing someone/s who are giving him a real run (the titan fight particularly vs Strange).
It's more or less established immediately that Thanos is relishing the opportunity to get flex his muscles again and legitimately enjoys the fight. He fights the way he does because he doesn't really believe any of his opponents stand a chance. The only time that almost proves untrue is when he faces team of highly coordinated opponents essentially controlling time.
With Dr.Strange...he has the Infinity stone for time...he can control and command causality, as Thanos clearly displays at the end...and never uses it for much of...anything? One would think that would be an ultimate trump card when the fundamental nature of cause and effect are bound to your whim.
He actually does this. He checks through millions of causality scenarios, rewinds time and tries different things over and over until he finds something that results in a "win". It's just explained to us that all of these time alterations have already happened and then we get to see the best possible scenario play out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/07 23:57:16
Finally, why does the Infinity Stones abilities with Thanos seem to mostly manifest in the ability to just punch harder?
A limitation of Thanos himself. I suspect that he mostly doesn't WANT to be in fights and be flashy and showy with it. Every time he gets really creative with the gems is either when he first gets it (the reality stone) or when hes facing someone/s who are giving him a real run (the titan fight particularly vs Strange).
It's more or less established immediately that Thanos is relishing the opportunity to get flex his muscles again and legitimately enjoys the fight. He fights the way he does because he doesn't really believe any of his opponents stand a chance. The only time that almost proves untrue is when he faces team of highly coordinated opponents essentially controlling time.
There's also the possibility he may not know how to fully make use of the stones' power. Gaining godlike powers doesn't necessarily grant the godlike knowledge/experience required to make full use of them. You may know how to drive, and drive fairly well, but could you suddenly win a NASCAR race tomorrow even if I gave you the best car? In general, you stick to what you know.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/08 00:09:45
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
Dr. Strange tells Tony... "This was the only way" for a reason. The path they are on now is the only path where they win.
I have a suspicion that Strange saved Stark on Titan because "the only way" requires him to die later, making the "sacrifice play" for real, maybe even specifically to save Cap because everyone expects him to be the main "big name" real-casualty after Avengers 4. The fact Downey now apparently has a spot free in 2019/2020 to film Sherlock Holmes 3 after seven years of putting it off makes me a bit more certain of the idea than I was previously.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Dr. Strange tells Tony... "This was the only way" for a reason. The path they are on now is the only path where they win.
I have a suspicion that Strange saved Stark on Titan because "the only way" requires him to die later, making the "sacrifice play" for real, maybe even specifically to save Cap because everyone expects him to be the main "big name" real-casualty after Avengers 4. The fact Downey now apparently has a spot free in 2019/2020 to film Sherlock Holmes 3 after seven years of putting it off makes me a bit more certain of the idea than I was previously.
I dunno.
In the comics Nebula ends up with the Gauntlet. And Nebula is still around.
I could see Nebula getting it and trading a soul for a soul to restore Gamora as she undoes everything Thanos did but becoming the soul inside the gem herself. Then Nebula kind of takes on the Death role from the comics, with Thanos having the soul stone but being unable to use it for anything as Nebula silently refuses to acknowledge him.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
The Empire Film Podcast spoiler special advanced the theory that the people you should worry about are the ones who didn't turn to dust - they're quite likely to be brought back by wibbly magic, while the ones left standing at the end of this film could well be the ones to die in the process.
Dr. Strange tells Tony... "This was the only way" for a reason. The path they are on now is the only path where they win.
I have a suspicion that Strange saved Stark on Titan because "the only way" requires him to die later, making the "sacrifice play" for real, maybe even specifically to save Cap because everyone expects him to be the main "big name" real-casualty after Avengers 4. The fact Downey now apparently has a spot free in 2019/2020 to film Sherlock Holmes 3 after seven years of putting it off makes me a bit more certain of the idea than I was previously.
I dunno.
In the comics Nebula ends up with the Gauntlet. And Nebula is still around.
I could see Nebula getting it and trading a soul for a soul to restore Gamora as she undoes everything Thanos did but becoming the soul inside the gem herself. Then Nebula kind of takes on the Death role from the comics, with Thanos having the soul stone but being unable to use it for anything as Nebula silently refuses to acknowledge him.
Oh I wasn't suggesting Stark would wield the gauntlet or anything, just that whatever the one good outcome turns out to be, it requires him to die. I also think that's why they really laboured over Peter's death scene, to make sure Stark is 1000% in the mindset of "I will do anything to fix this".
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
I read theories that everyone who turned to dust is inside the soul stone. So when he’s defeated, they’ll all hop out. And agree that given her role in the comics, Nebula has a big part to play in the next movie. I expect Tony and Cap to both die, Banner and Hulk to separate completely, Black Widow and Banner retire while Hulk joins Thor as his right hand in a rebuilt Asgard. And the second coming of the Avengers take center stage.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.
I kinda wonder why any of the major heros have to die. So what if contracts are up. They've thrown money at RDJ to appear in additional parts, and who says it's not worth having these guys show up from time to time down the road? I don't think there will be as many deaths as people are expecting in A4. I think it will close some chapters maybe, but regardless of who they introduce into the MCU, kids are still going to like and want to see most of these heros as they are portrayed. Bucky might be a Captain America, but he is no Steve Rogers, as evidence in the comics.
KTG17 wrote: I kinda wonder why any of the major heros have to die. So what if contracts are up. They've thrown money at RDJ to appear in additional parts, and who says it's not worth having these guys show up from time to time down the road? I don't think there will be as many deaths as people are expecting in A4. I think it will close some chapters maybe, but regardless of who they introduce into the MCU, kids are still going to like and want to see most of these heros as they are portrayed. Bucky might be a Captain America, but he is no Steve Rogers, as evidence in the comics.
It might be more about the actors themselves wanting out. Hemsworth has actually developed a fairly high profile career outside of Marvel and may want that chapter "ended" so people don't keep asking for him back (see Harrison Ford and Star Wars). If Loki stays down assume it's cause Hiddleston wanted to. Same with Chris Evans who hasn't really had a solo movie since his first one. The Cap movies have basically already been mini-avengers movies anyway and maybe he's kinda done too. RDJ is one of the glues of the MCU but he doesn't have to get into the same shape as the Chris's to play his part so it's definitely easier on him. Plus they back up loads of money for him. He had to help fight to get the other original avengers more cash.
I think we'll see Cap go down as it makes the most sense. Stark won't simply because he is a glue and the potential for future banter with him and Strange given they both live in NYC plus Parker is huge. Thor will become Odin and maybe someone else from Asgard will step into an avenger role in the future. It would be interesting to see Stark after Cap goes down. Since day one of the Avengers Cap has kinda been Tony's counter weight with the group and a bit of a rock for him personally to hold onto in a storm.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/08 20:24:31
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
It is also more satisfying to "close out" the characters on screen somehow while the actors are still willing, rather than just have them not be around for "reasons"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/08 21:44:49
AndrewGPaul wrote: The Empire Film Podcast spoiler special advanced the theory that the people you should worry about are the ones who didn't turn to dust - they're quite likely to be brought back by wibbly magic, while the ones left standing at the end of this film could well be the ones to die in the process.
I'm personally trying to get away from using the "in the comics" reference for speculation. Marvel has been shockingly good at staying true to the spirit of the comics, but never telling the story in a way that knowledge of the comics really acts as any sort of insider knowledge as to what happens. I'm not expecting the movies to adapt the comic stories in any specific way anymore. They are very much doing their own thing.
Chris Evans has said that outside of being Cap he doesn't want to act anymore. He wants to direct.
If after the close of A4 Disney gives him the chance to direct I wouldn't be surprised if we got little Captain America cameos here or there while the universe moves forward. I don't think the character will die but I could see the character take a back seat. I also think it's only a matter of time before a lot of these characters are just recast.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
I’d rather see some torch passing rather than recasting. Leaves it open for a surprise team up of both versions of the character as well.
Pass the Captain America mantle to Bucky (which might have been the original plan with his 9 picture contract) or Falcon rather than recast Steve Rogers.
KTG17 wrote: I kinda wonder why any of the major heros have to die. So what if contracts are up. They've thrown money at RDJ to appear in additional parts, and who says it's not worth having these guys show up from time to time down the road? I don't think there will be as many deaths as people are expecting in A4. I think it will close some chapters maybe, but regardless of who they introduce into the MCU, kids are still going to like and want to see most of these heros as they are portrayed. Bucky might be a Captain America, but he is no Steve Rogers, as evidence in the comics.
It might be more about the actors themselves wanting out. Hemsworth has actually developed a fairly high profile career outside of Marvel and may want that chapter "ended" so people don't keep asking for him back (see Harrison Ford and Star Wars). If Loki stays down assume it's cause Hiddleston wanted to. Same with Chris Evans who hasn't really had a solo movie since his first one. The Cap movies have basically already been mini-avengers movies anyway and maybe he's kinda done too. RDJ is one of the glues of the MCU but he doesn't have to get into the same shape as the Chris's to play his part so it's definitely easier on him. Plus they back up loads of money for him. He had to help fight to get the other original avengers more cash.
I though Hemsworth was back on board with Thor post-Ragnarok, now the character is more a cosmic comedy-drama affair than the more po-faced version of the first two?
I think we'll see Cap go down as it makes the most sense. Stark won't simply because he is a glue and the potential for future banter with him and Strange given they both live in NYC plus Parker is huge. Thor will become Odin and maybe someone else from Asgard will step into an avenger role in the future. It would be interesting to see Stark after Cap goes down. Since day one of the Avengers Cap has kinda been Tony's counter weight with the group and a bit of a rock for him personally to hold onto in a storm.
Hmm, you could be right. It just seems like they did an awful lot of work to set Stark up for self-sacrifice, but that could be another fakeout.
When I read about it the whole "Lady Thor" thing in the comics it sounded just really, really dumb, but if it's an Asgardian who takes on the mantle rather than just a rando human who happens to be Thor's girlfriend...I could totally get behind a Tessa Thompson/Valkyrie version of Thor with Miek and Korg as sidekicks and Hemsworth doing smaller parts as nuOdin.
I also agree that torch-passing beats recasting. I mean seriously, RDJ is Stark, Evans is Cap, in the sense that they've embodied such definitive versions of those characters on screen that I don't think you could get away with recasting them until the generation of fans who saw their runs in the roles are crusty old folk who'll grumble that the new version isn't as good regardless of who they cast(ie, people the new generation of viewers are likely to ignore). Casting is another part of the formula that Marvel have just nailed, right to the fething wall - the downside of that being once an actor wants to leave or ages out of a part, you really do have to retire the version of the hero they're playing as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/09 04:16:34
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
It's not entirely true. Just as an example, The Tony Stark in the comics is NOT the original tony stark. The original tony stark ended up being a mind controlled plant for Kang the Conqueror and the avengers went back in time and bought forward a teenaged tony to help defeat his older self.
Then Onslaught happened and thus heroes reborn, where cap, hulk, thor, ironman, and the fantastic 4 all got put into pocket dimensions and effectively made into entirely new different people. The heroes we got out of heroes reborn are not the people who went in.
Events can happen in the movies to justify recasts.
I am not saying it would be easy. Just that it's possible. They would need to be REAL careful with who they cast.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Anyone else heard the rumor that in Avengers 4 Nebula, the Purple Man and Malekith will try to use the Time Gem to fix things, only to discover it's a 'fixed point' and cannot be altered?
Lance845 wrote: It's not entirely true. Just as an example, The Tony Stark in the comics is NOT the original tony stark. The original tony stark ended up being a mind controlled plant for Kang the Conqueror and the avengers went back in time and bought forward a teenaged tony to help defeat his older self.
Then Onslaught happened and thus heroes reborn, where cap, hulk, thor, ironman, and the fantastic 4 all got put into pocket dimensions and effectively made into entirely new different people. The heroes we got out of heroes reborn are not the people who went in.
Events can happen in the movies to justify recasts.
I am not saying it would be easy. Just that it's possible. They would need to be REAL careful with who they cast.
That would be really, really bad IMO. What's made the MCU so successful, apart from being just generally decent quality action films that are fun to watch, is that it gives audiences all the good bits of comics without all the bad bits, like pointlessly convoluted timey-wimey dimensional backflipping used pretty much entirely to "reset" characters so they can keep them as almost the same people regardless of how much time passes IRL. When they start pulling nonsense like that is when I peace out.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
They've done some trivial recasting, Rodney/War Machine being the only one any sane person would notice. I liked how they did it too, 'It's me just roll with it' or something like that.
Oh and Hulk I suppose but no one wants to remember either Hulk movie.
I'd be interested in seeing what happens if one fine day Thor shows up and it's Dwane Johnson or whoever.
Which makes a certain amount of sense. They've already shown an audience appetite for a wide range of tones within the MCU - the classic comparison of course being GotG and Winter Soldier. One is a space based laff-a-thon, the other a surprisingly gritty thriller. And both made big money for the studio.
Now exactly where they go with that? Well, who knows! But it does suggest they're looking to get new talent aboard (can you imagine the money the current stars would command when renegotiating their contracts?)
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
However, Iger did throw in something we didn’t know: “I’m guessing we will try our hand at what I’ll call a new franchise beyond Avengers, but that doesn’t necessarily mean you won’t see more Avengers down the road. We just haven’t made any announcements about that”.
Marvel has been doing the baton-passing thing since at least the 80s, when Rhodes became Iron Man (later spun off as Warmachine). Not hard to see Falcon or Winter Soldier become Captain America (both have had the role in comics) or even luring Natalie Portman back to be Thor.
And if the rumor about getting Fox comes true... well that's X-men and their infinite spin offs right there.
I think Sony still has the Fantastic Four and Spider-spin-offs, is there anyone else Marvel/Disney would be missing?
I don’t think the Falcon Cap thing went over super well in the comics, I think they’d go the Bucky route in the movies. I also don’t think they’ve laid enough character groundwork to do a Jane Foster Thor either.
One thing to keep in mind with torch passing is that several of the actors who have talked about maybe wanting to be done with the roles is because of how physically demanding they can be how they’re getting older. Most all the obvious torch recievers have been around just as long and ain’t really any younger.
And we are entering the 11th year of the MCU in 2019. That's a long old time to be in Thor Shape, for instance.
But hey, no need for another Thor - there's literally hundreds of other Avengers to choose from. Provided we retain a couple of 'anchor' characters, and get the odd cameo, anyone can be dropped in, no?
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
