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Ah, so it is well cemented now, then.

M.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Damn I love discussions where people really get eldar

I do think that the Necrons were absolutely interested in wiping out the Old Ones' surviving minions, if only due to the bile amd hate towards them they display once woken. Perhaps they believed them defeated. Driven to the ends of the galaxy, never to rise again.

Necrons go to sleep, eldar and orks come out of hiding and inherit an empty galaxy, believing themselves victorious. Unsurprising that they don't go searching for Tomb Worlds. Especially if they have to rebuild their civilisation from scratch, it would be a long time before they had the capabilities to take on a Tomb World. Long enough for the knowledge of them to have passed into myth.

Absolutely with you Iracundus on the whole 'dominant power does not mean they genocide everyone else'. That seems to be a development since the Fall and the rise of the Imperium. Any of the Culture novels from Ian M Banks give a great portrayal of how civilisations can flourish in the same space at (sometimes vastly) different levels of capability.

Also, I wonder if relative insularity was a bit of a defining feature of the eldar throughout their history. If you thought you lived in a galaxy of chimps, you'd probably keep to yourself too. Plus, one of the fundamental drivers for eldar arrogance (the fact that they were created exactly the way they were, whereas other species stumbled upon their form haphazardly by chance) has been there from the start. That sort of psychology would probably feed into a sort of 'laissez faire' attitude towards the rest of the galaxy. Whatsmore, eldar absolutely appear to have an appreciation for the natural world. Perhaps they viewed the other species (sentient or not) as part of that wider galactic garden over which they tended. Funny animals to be appreciated for their struggles in the same way we find it fascinating when monkeys use tools.

The Empire wasn't excessively insular until the corruption they suffered reached a certain point. They simply stopped caring about anything but decadence and self-gratification at that point.

And apparently the Craftworlds of the pre-Fall era had no problem helping and interacting with other races, especially advanced races like Humans. That's not the actions of a race that views others as animals. And it doesn't jibe with the depictions of the pre-corruption Eldar as an enlightened species prior to the rot setting in. Remember, the galaxy wasn't always wallowing in the grimdark.

Despite the racist rhetoric on the part of many "modern" Eldar, much of their disgust with Humanity is due the fact that Man wallows in ignorance and isn't living up to their potential. And also because the Eldar sees themselves in Humans, including making many of the same mistakes. The reasons they don't completely write off Man in the 41st/42nd Millennium is because: A. The destiny of both species have been tied together every since the Fall. And B: Humanity's strong faith is a potent weapon against Chaos. And C: Neither side will admit it, but they need each other to survive. But it still bruises a lot of egos, since Man's arrogance matches that of the Eldar pound for pound.

The only recent example I can think of involving a human living amongst Eldar is the Rogue Trader from the Forge of Wars series.

He only became a Rogue Trader after living among them, but that speaks well of his abilities and why there'd even be a reason for the Eldar to take pity on him after he was left for dead aboard his ship after an attack by Chaos.

I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually come across surviving perpetuals living among the eldar. but then I'm not sure we'll see a perpetual in 40k as anything other than an unconfirmed rumour or name drop as a nod to the HH novels

While not human related, there is an unconfirmed theory that Eldar via Eldrad himself, "created" the T'au race.
By which I mean that the Warp Storm that protected the Tau homeworld from being wiped out by the Imperium was conjured by Eldrad specifically because he saw a vision that the Tau needed to survive to be a tool to use later for the Eldar.

Eldar have a very clear motive for nurturing a species that is all but immune to the taint of Chaos. It is even possible that the Eldar influenced the first Etheraels to unite the Tau.
In the Gathering Storm books, the Eldar have a council to decide who to enlist as help for the upcoming conflict. Before deciding on waking up Guiliman, one of the Farseers mentions the Tau and quickly dismisses them as "too young". Almost as if the Eldar treat them as a child race in need of protecting, or that they are not ready for the Eldar's larger plans.

It's a neat theory that I'd like to believe, even if some players might not like it.

-

goundry wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually come across surviving perpetuals living among the eldar. but then I'm not sure we'll see a perpetual in 40k as anything other than an unconfirmed rumour or name drop as a nod to the HH novels

It's been said that Justicar Anval Thawn of the Grey Knights was the last Perpetual. However, the 7th Edition Codex omits that aspect of Thawn's background, implying either that it was retconned, or it was a simple oversight by the Codex writer(s) (which would be no surprise, since fact checking, consistency, and proofreading were lost arts during the 7th.)

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Yeah I don't know of any actual humans living with or under eldar anywhere outside of the Dark City (where most of their regular industry is captured slave-labour).

Might be some older fluff of limited veracity about exodites working together with humans, but if there is I've expunged it from my mind as it's all a bit too soppy for my interpretation of 40k. As far as I see it, the Tau view other species as inferior to the Tau but still as other nearly-equal beings. The eldar view other species as barely thinking animals*. Far too much contempt (and not to mention risk) in allowing them anywhere near eldar populations.

*Hah, that's just conjured up the idea of some bonkers eldar outcast who's got a massive 'collection' of humans in a sort of 'crazy cat lady' type deal. Goes around dressing them up in eldar garb and giving them eldar names and all that stuff that makes you worry slightly for their sanity

I mean. They even let them eat at the table with them! Where their food is and everything. Disgusting!

All I thought about was Trayzn as a crazy cat lady.

This is kinda opposite what the OP wanted to know, but I know it was common in RT and 2nd for Planetary Governors to hire Eldar agents...and it was equally common for them to switch sides or become insulted easily enough to outright make an enemy of the Governor. So it was very risky.

And yes the Knight Worlds and the Exodites were the genesis of the Knight titans of both sides. I cant remember who made the first knight titans (I think the Imperium) and the other side quickly copied and thus the Imperials would invade a Maiden/Exodite world only to have warp gates open on their own worlds with retaliation forces making decisive hit and run attacks.

I have a lot of the citadel journal and early knight titan early writings someplace.....It is very interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh remember that the SQUATS and Eldar got along well. The squats did their best to remain out of the Eldar and Ork wars as they traded with both. When some orks attacked the Homeworlds and the calls for aid to the Eldar were not given, the Squats never forgave the Eldar and forevermore Hated the Ork race.

 admironheart wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh remember that the SQUATS and Eldar got along well. The squats did their best to remain out of the Eldar and Ork wars as they traded with both. When some orks attacked the Homeworlds and the calls for aid to the Eldar were not given, the Squats never forgave the Eldar and forevermore Hated the Ork race.

You can't have Space Dwarfs without their hatred for Space Elfs and Space Orcs - that would be unseemly!

M.

It is cannon that either Eldar or Old Ones adjusted the development of Mankind.

Also, the Old Ones molded the development of Eldar, but that doesn't mean they created them out of whole cloth. It's just as likely that they could have adjusted the development of a culture that went through a similar advancement.

If it's the Old Ones who manipulated Mankind, the Eldar may have respected mankind's potential purpose. More likely, if it was Eldar that was playing with Mankind's development, they could have just been having a lark or been interested in how it would unfold. Either way, they wouldn't "prune" mankind as quickly as other races.

Eldar would 'prune' races that would go beyond where they should. There wasn't much point in genociding them - they just wanted to put them back in their place.

It's entirely reasonable that Mankind's ascent to the stars was after Eldar became wholly consumed by decadence. That'd make a lot of sense, and explain things like Eldar not curbstomping the Men of Iron.

Also, for Tau, it's not clear if it was Craftworlders, Cegorath, or Tzeech that brought them to be what they are. Seems most likely it was Cegorath (Harlequins best fits the description of those who harvest the queen, more capable of large Warp Storms than Craftworlders but not Tzeech, and the Incorruptable Swarm seems less likely to be a Tzeechian plot). That said, it could be a CWE or Cegorath plot while also being a Tzeechian plot. Or any combination thereof.

Note that Tau technology also seems to be advancing in the direction of CWE tech, with a lot of parallels. If it weren't an Eldar plot, that might not be the case (compare them to Necron or IoM tech).

All that said, whoever started the Tau, Eldrad clearly had visions that the Tau would be necessary. And has implored other Eldar to support them.

Uthwe and Eldrad (seperately, now) are in Rhana Dandra prep mode now. It's not about strengthening Uthwe or Eldar, it's about strengthening the opponents of Chaos. Moreso now than ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the first part: the codexes tend to take a 'gardener' analogy for Old Ones, and later Eldar's, role in the galaxy.

Bharring wrote:
It is cannon that either Eldar or Old Ones adjusted the development of Mankind.

Also, the Old Ones molded the development of Eldar, but that doesn't mean they created them out of whole cloth. It's just as likely that they could have adjusted the development of a culture that went through a similar advancement.

If it's the Old Ones who manipulated Mankind, the Eldar may have respected mankind's potential purpose. More likely, if it was Eldar that was playing with Mankind's development, they could have just been having a lark or been interested in how it would unfold. Either way, they wouldn't "prune" mankind as quickly as other races.

Eldar would 'prune' races that would go beyond where they should. There wasn't much point in genociding them - they just wanted to put them back in their place.

It's entirely reasonable that Mankind's ascent to the stars was after Eldar became wholly consumed by decadence. That'd make a lot of sense, and explain things like Eldar not curbstomping the Men of Iron.

Also, for Tau, it's not clear if it was Craftworlders, Cegorath, or Tzeech that brought them to be what they are. Seems most likely it was Cegorath (Harlequins best fits the description of those who harvest the queen, more capable of large Warp Storms than Craftworlders but not Tzeech, and the Incorruptable Swarm seems less likely to be a Tzeechian plot). That said, it could be a CWE or Cegorath plot while also being a Tzeechian plot. Or any combination thereof.

Note that Tau technology also seems to be advancing in the direction of CWE tech, with a lot of parallels. If it weren't an Eldar plot, that might not be the case (compare them to Necron or IoM tech).

All that said, whoever started the Tau, Eldrad clearly had visions that the Tau would be necessary. And has implored other Eldar to support them.

Uthwe and Eldrad (seperately, now) are in Rhana Dandra prep mode now. It's not about strengthening Uthwe or Eldar, it's about strengthening the opponents of Chaos. Moreso now than ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the first part: the codexes tend to take a 'gardener' analogy for Old Ones, and later Eldar's, role in the galaxy.

Just as with the idea that the Necrons were behind the Pariah Gene, the Old Ones creating or guiding Mankind is impossible. The Necrons were entombed and the Old Ones became extinct long before Man's earliest ancestors evolved. The climax of the War in Heaven took place right around the time the K-T Event wiped out the dinosaurs on Earth.


It is possible that the Eldar visited Earth, and even influenced early Humanity's development, in the past (in the 40k setting, this would be a good explanation for Old Earth's elf myths). But in the period of recorded history, it would be unlikely.


Humans were traveling the stars long before the bulk of the Eldar race became space shut-ins. But your post brings up an interesting point. It was around the same time that Humans discovered (or engineered) the Navigator Gene (allowing for long distance Warp travel) that the Eldar started withdrawing due to corruption. In no time at all, Humanity had a galactic federation and had reached it's pinnacle. A lack of Eldar influence probably allowed the process to be a fast one.

The Eldar Empire could've have defeated the Men of Iron. But based on the descriptions of the Men of Iron at the time of the cybernetic revolt, and Human technology at it's height (the technology that was behind the Men of Iron), it wouldn't have been a "curbstomp". It would have been one hell of a fight that could've given Khorne a boner the size of Jupiter.

Fluff has Eldar in the Sol system, certainly. And it does make more sense for them, not Old Ones, to play around with Human development.

Men of Iron would be powerful tech. But entirely based in the Materium most likely. Eldar had fought the *Necrons*, at the height of their power. Eldar were familiar with fighting advanced science and tech. And could alter reality fluently (warp powers). No need to restrain themselves like the CWE of the 40k era. Further, in adition to the Warp, Eldar had incredibly advanced technology as well.

From what I've seen of the lore, on a scale from 1 to 10, races tend to stack up like this:
1 - Orkz
2 - Average IoM world
3 - IoM as a whole
4 - Tau
5 - DAoT humans

Pre-Fall Eldar dialed it up to 11 (read some of their more interesting tech).

Necrons sitting comfortably at a 16.

A common example is the DAoT dreadnaught who's main gun did enough damage to a CWE cruiser to break it's holofields. Impressive, but only if you didn't cut your teeth fighting War in Heaven Necrons.

That said, I don't think there's much fluff on the relative power between pre-fall Eldar or Men of Iron to really know.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:


Just as with the idea that the Necrons were behind the Pariah Gene, the Old Ones creating or guiding Mankind is impossible. The Necrons were entombed and the Old Ones became extinct long before Man's earliest ancestors evolved. The climax of the War in Heaven took place right around the time the K-T Event wiped out the dinosaurs on Earth.

I'm almost willing to bet that GW placed the War in Heaven at around the time of the K-T Event precisely so they could imply that "Necrons Killed The Dinosaurs".

Which, while cool in theory, produces all sorts of screw-ups with the general 40k timeline.

On the final page on one of the old codices (the blue cover, I forget what edition) there was a fluff piece about how an imperial scholar had been living with the Eldar for many years and was actually attempting to be taught the language.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
On the final page on one of the old codices (the blue cover, I forget what edition) there was a fluff piece about how an imperial scholar had been living with the Eldar for many years and was actually attempting to be taught the language.

That is the 3rd edition Eldar Codex. That was a human scholar on Alaitoc before diplomatic relations with the Imperium were broken off. The scholar's fate is unknown.

I would see the situation as similar to how some great apes such as bonobos are taught languages today in a research setting. Their language is about that of a toddler's (which is actually quite impressive). A human would be similar in regards to the Eldar language (i.e. simple and function but nowhere near enough to function or be accepted in society as an adult), especially given what we know of it: numerous mythological/historical references, different formality levels to address people, people having multiple names to be used in different situations.

Given how the Eldar are stated now in the latest Codex to need nearly a century to reach maturation, I could see a human dying of old age before learning the nuances and etiquette forcing the exasperated Eldar teacher to start anew with a new human student.

Always thought it was kind of weird on these slow-growing races with overcomplicated basic communication (elfs, space elfs). That implies their offpsring spend decades or centuries being effectively useless in society.

M.

We spend nearly 2 decades being useless to society, but have a lifespan approaching a century.

Eldar spend nearly a century being useless to socienty, but have lifespans counted in millenia.

From the perspective of a shorter lived animal like a cat or dog, a human is immature for the entire lifespan of that animal.

Similarly, while a dog might understand some words and phrases of human language, they do not seem to be able to understand or remember the full grammar and details of more complex language (and probably would not understand why it matters). The Eldar are shown in the Path of the Eldar novels to have almost eidetic memory. A human might struggle with being able to remember which of the 50 tenses or conjugations to use in a given situation, but for the Eldar it might be as straightforward as being able to walk and talk at the same time. These human limitations IMO add to why the Eldar have trouble taking humans seriously.

I always thought it was humans constant bad decisions like using a gun that could explode and kill the user along with anyone standing too close at any time.

pm713 wrote:
I always thought it was humans constant bad decisions like using a gun that could explode and kill the user along with anyone standing too close at any time.

I said adds to. There are quite a few reasons why the Eldar facepalm when it comes to humanity.

The Craftworld Eldar are one of the very few 40K factions that don't seem willing to risk the lives of their own through their own weapons. Even the Tau do so with a few of their weapon systems.

Wraith troop use weapons that risk their own - and the rest of creation - every time they're fired.

Fluffwise, Distort- weapons (Wraithcannon/scythes) damage the Materium itself.

It's why only Wraiths carry Distort weapons - they only use it when things are so dire they're even willing to risk their Honored Dead.

Fluffwise Wraiths are safe from the side effects of D weapons and they're mainly safe from actual death because the soul stones are encased in wraithbone which is regenerative and one of the hardest substances in the universe apparently.

But a Wraith is made of Wraithbone - it's still a risk to deploy one, as many of their foes are capable of cracking Wraithbone somehow. If that weren't the case, they'd deploy much more Wraithbone than they do.

They have to crack both the Wraithbone and the stone which requires the equivalent of vehicle killing power into the Wraiths head. It's much more sensible to take out a wraiths legs or arms or other joints and move on from a hostile view. Plus not many people actually know what soulstones are.

They'd have to make much more wraithbone to do that which seems like a very laborious project for a race that doesn't really have anything like forcing people to build things. Plus they use psycho-plastics which can alter their shapes for infantry armour which seems more practical.

Makes sense.

But the off chance that a LasCannon hits just right and pops it means you've damned an Honored Dead to Slanesh.

You have but you can't really completely remove the risk to an Eldar in battle no matter what you do. A lucky Lascannon hit will send pretty much any Eldar to Slaanesh and you're probably much safer encased in Wraithbone than you are as a Banshee or Dire Avenger with the trade off of being a worse fighter.

Iracundus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I always thought it was humans constant bad decisions like using a gun that could explode and kill the user along with anyone standing too close at any time.

I said adds to. There are quite a few reasons why the Eldar facepalm when it comes to humanity.

The Craftworld Eldar are one of the very few 40K factions that don't seem willing to risk the lives of their own through their own weapons. Even the Tau do so with a few of their weapon systems.

I'm afraid you're forgetting warp spiders here

Bharring wrote:We spend nearly 2 decades being useless to society, but have a lifespan approaching a century.

Only because of social convention - by the time you're 4 or 5, you can actually work. It's just illegal to.

M.

The Craftworlders certainly see little to no value in human culture (they are even ambivalent towards their fellow kin on other Craftworlds) although I think the genodical stuff is mostly a 3rd ed direction that Gav took when 40k was at its most grimdark. Biel Tan are characterised as being highly xenophobic as befits their militaristic culture. The craftworlders in general now seem to have reverted back to their pre-3rd ed mode which is characterised by a reluctant tolerance of humanity. The Eldar understand that humanity is a necessary buffer against Chaos although they clearly resent being usurped by what they perceive as an inferior culture.

The whole "uber-racist supremacism" thing with the Eldar was pretty much kickstarted in 3rd Edi. The 2nd Edi Eldar were much nicer - it was specified in Code Imperialis that Eldar were more often allied with humans than fighting against them - and there was a short story in "Codex: Eldar" where a Craftword Eldar is appreciating the human art inside an Imperial temple. Since the Eldar came off as too "good guy-ish" overall - and we can't have good guys in 40k now, can we - they were made much nastier in the subsequent edition.
Of course, the same edition would also introduce us to the first "sunshine and lollipops" interation of the Tau.

I think the current splitline within Eldarkind in regards to tolerating other races is between Ynnari and non-Ynnari - with the former being more akin to 2nd Edi, and the latter to 3rd Edi. I'm not sure though how things are with the Ynnari-aligned Dark Eldar - do they continue to practice the whole Commorite "murder/torture" thing, or did they knock it off?