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Welcome to the world where IG alpha strike is king. Shooting has a massive advantage in this system, especially long range shooting, as does any army able to naturally generate a whole bunch of CP on its own. Play IG fill 2-3 brigades, make Sure to bring powerful shooting as part of your list. Bid 0 every game, profit.
Both of OP's fixes disproportionally favour IG , and they really the buff right now vs GK alpha striking who are proabably getting the most nerfed here.
The only real way to fix 1st turn nonsense has always been to do away with the archaic UGOIGO turn system. Alternating unit activations entirely eliminates this problem.
Of course this would require a significant overhaul of the game, but that's the solution anyways.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
Blacksails wrote: The only real way to fix 1st turn nonsense has always been to do away with the archaic UGOIGO turn system. Alternating unit activations entirely eliminates this problem.
Of course this would require a significant overhaul of the game, but that's the solution anyways.
I agree that alternating activations would fix the alpha strike problem, but I disagree with the idea that it would require a significant overhaul of the game (still a few tweaks, though). You could implement alternating activations in the next game you played with minimal disruption; at the very least, any disruption you did see would be outweighed by the benefits of diminished alpha strike. You could just roll off each turn to see who gets first activation, with the loser getting 1CP in compensation.
Having said that, there are cases where assigning one activation for one unit can be a problem. Lords of War might need to declare "windup" and/or "cooldown" activations that are effectively "pass" activations, in order to allow the opponent to prepare for, or respond to, the damage they cause in their main activation.
Blacksails wrote: The only real way to fix 1st turn nonsense has always been to do away with the archaic UGOIGO turn system. Alternating unit activations entirely eliminates this problem.
Of course this would require a significant overhaul of the game, but that's the solution anyways.
I agree that alternating activations would fix the alpha strike problem, but I disagree with the idea that it would require a significant overhaul of the game (still a few tweaks, though). You could implement alternating activations in the next game you played with minimal disruption; at the very least, any disruption you did see would be outweighed by the benefits of diminished alpha strike. You could just roll off each turn to see who gets first activation, with the loser getting 1CP in compensation.
Having said that, there are cases where assigning one activation for one unit can be a problem. Lords of War might need to declare "windup" and/or "cooldown" activations that are effectively "pass" activations, in order to allow the opponent to prepare for, or respond to, the damage they cause in their main activation.
The issue is actually the opposite, Lords of War are hurt badly by straight alternating activation, as if I play lots of units with a deepstrike alpha strike, I can force those Lords of war to activate, maybe kill a small unit or 2, then get alpha struck off the table. The game would need a significant overhaul to go to straight alternate activations, there are variations of alternate activation that could work more easily, but using straight alternate activations changes the value of units quite a bit. Aura Buffs are worse, buff psykers are worse, some powers are near unusable (Da Jump from orks is horrible in alternate activation without a re-write), How do drop pods work? They are a unit right so the unit that jumps out cannot activate and gets murdered.
I agree that a transition to alternating activation would be better, but it needs a lot of work to actually function in the current 40k.
pismakron wrote: Sure, and then your opponent bids ninety, gets first turn with ninety CP's?
You play a farce of a game where both players use literally every stratagem at every possible opportunity. The problem is that, before you bid, you have to ask whether or not you want to participate in the system at all. If you want the first turn you have to carefully weigh the options on how much you can afford to bid, and you probably get something reasonable for a number. If you don't care about going second, because you have a reserves-heavy beta strike list or just plan to win on end-of-turn objective grabs, you bid infinite points and have infinite stratagem use. A bid of 10 CP and 999999999999999999 CP have the same (nonexistent) chance of winning, so of course you take the bigger supply of CP.
If you are the highest bidder and go second, then you don't get any CP at all, and you do not need to pay any CP to activate units. The lowest bid gets a cache of CP with which to conduct his first turn, so there would be no incentive to submit a very large bid, nor a very small bid.
For sake of argument consider the following:
You are playing Guard against me, playing Orks.
Your list is:
3 x Company commander
3 x vetsquads, las cannon 3x grenadelauncher
6 x inf squads, plasma + lascannon
3 x scout sentinels, h flamer
3 x bassilisks
tank commander, punisher
4 standard leman russ
13 CP (i think)
My list is
2 x warboss, klaw
2 x big mek, choppa, kustom force field
2 x weirdboy, da jump & warpath
2 x painboy, klaw
6 x 30 boyz, boss nob with klaw
6 kommandos, klaw
6 kustom mega kannons
9 CP
I don't have the AM codex, and I am not super familiar with Guard listbuilding, so bear with me here.
So the question is this: What number would you write on your piece of paper?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breng77 wrote: Welcome to the world where IG alpha strike is king. Shooting has a massive advantage in this system, especially long range shooting, as does any army able to naturally generate a whole bunch of CP on its own. Play IG fill 2-3 brigades, make Sure to bring powerful shooting as part of your list. Bid 0 every game, profit.
Why would you profit? You would essentially have a regular shooty guard alpha strike list, with the added disadvantage of having to spend a CP from your regular pool for every movement or shooting action in your first turn? Why would anyone do this?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Earth127 wrote: Both of OP's fixes disproportionally favour IG , and they really the buff right now vs GK alpha striking who are proabably getting the most nerfed here.
I don't see why this would favour IG over GK? Care to explain that?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/05 12:58:26
Blacksails wrote: The only real way to fix 1st turn nonsense has always been to do away with the archaic UGOIGO turn system. Alternating unit activations entirely eliminates this problem.
Of course this would require a significant overhaul of the game, but that's the solution anyways.
I agree that alternating activations would fix the alpha strike problem, but I disagree with the idea that it would require a significant overhaul of the game (still a few tweaks, though). You could implement alternating activations in the next game you played with minimal disruption; at the very least, any disruption you did see would be outweighed by the benefits of diminished alpha strike. You could just roll off each turn to see who gets first activation, with the loser getting 1CP in compensation.
Having said that, there are cases where assigning one activation for one unit can be a problem. Lords of War might need to declare "windup" and/or "cooldown" activations that are effectively "pass" activations, in order to allow the opponent to prepare for, or respond to, the damage they cause in their main activation.
The issue is actually the opposite, Lords of War are hurt badly by straight alternating activation, as if I play lots of units with a deepstrike alpha strike, I can force those Lords of war to activate, maybe kill a small unit or 2, then get alpha struck off the table. The game would need a significant overhaul to go to straight alternate activations, there are variations of alternate activation that could work more easily, but using straight alternate activations changes the value of units quite a bit. Aura Buffs are worse, buff psykers are worse, some powers are near unusable (Da Jump from orks is horrible in alternate activation without a re-write), How do drop pods work? They are a unit right so the unit that jumps out cannot activate and gets murdered.
I agree that a transition to alternating activation would be better, but it needs a lot of work to actually function in the current 40k.
Yeah, 40k needs a good look at itself and decide what it wants to be. Currently its not achieving anything special with its gameplay; the big selling point is the supposed freedom to play whatever you want, which leaves us with a mess of a game when people bring 3 superheavies against a foot marine army.
Typically, a 28mm game would be no larger than a company level game, and ideally no larger than a reinforced platoon level game. In 40k terms, we're talking about IG forces no larger than a Russ squadron with a small infantry platoon for support, or marines running a few squads with supporting elements. Throw in alternating activations, and now the biggest disparity in number of activations would be no greater than a few units between the forces. If we throw it in currently at a 2k level game, we could have one side with 3 activations for superheavies, and another side 24 activations. In such a system, the player ultimately decides on the pros and cons of number of activations; less activations means each activation is individually more powerful, but you lose out on flexibility of reacting to your opponent while the opposite would be true for someone with more activations. The system inherently is self balancing if the difference isn't massive.
When you fix the scale issues, throw in alternating activations, and tweak the CP system so that they aren't used for re-rolls of some sort but rather for meaningful in game actions like rallying units (morale should be waaaayyyy more important), setting units up on overwatch (proper out of turn shooting, not a simple extra attack as someone charges you), activating two units in one go, delaying an activation, and so on.
I've been keeping tabs on the Gates of Antares 40k port because it seems way more up my alley than the cluster that is this edition.
I totally understand that there are people who love playing multiple superheavies and flyers, and call me old fashioned, but I seriously miss the days where those elements were strictly for Apoc. I think the game was better for it, and their introduction into the base game marks the game's decline for me.
Looking forward to giving Necromunda a shot though!
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
Breng77 wrote: Welcome to the world where IG alpha strike is king. Shooting has a massive advantage in this system, especially long range shooting, as does any army able to naturally generate a whole bunch of CP on its own. Play IG fill 2-3 brigades, make Sure to bring powerful shooting as part of your list. Bid 0 every game, profit.
Why would you profit? You would essentially have a regular shooty guard alpha strike list, with the added disadvantage of having to spend a CP from your regular pool for every movement or shooting action in your first turn? Why would anyone do this?
Consider this
Guard
Brigade
3 x company commander
6 x infantry squad
3 x command squad
3 x scout sentinels
3 x basilisk
2x 3 moratar team
Brigade
3 x company commander
6 x infantry squad
3 x command squad
3 x scout sentinels
3 x Mantacore
2x 3 moratar team
(mind you I made this in about a minute) 21 CP - I bid 0 every game to give me at worst a roll off for first turn, on which if my opponent is say GK and have 7 CP, units which need to move to shoot, have psychic powers etc. SO if the GK player wins first turn he activates 2-3 units, which generally are going to attack my screen then I blow him off the table.
Do I have to pay CP to scout my sentinels forward it happens before turn 1? If not I've gotten a free move with 6 units which can now shoot and are denying deepstrike. I have so many units I can see where most opponents will deploy. I have 10 units which I really don't need to move so I can spend 10 CP just to shoot, have scouted my sentinels forward as a screen, and still have 11 CP remaing. Or if I'm facing those GK maybe I bid 1 or 2 and still not give up an advantage, but get extra CP unless they want turn 1.
IF scout moves don't count as needing CP I'll bid 1 or 2 CP against your ork list. With 9 CP what are you doing shooting my screen with a KMK? and jump charging 1 unit of boyz? This system is hugely advantageous to units that don't need to move
Blacksails wrote:The only real way to fix 1st turn nonsense has always been to do away with the archaic UGOIGO turn system. Alternating unit activations entirely eliminates this problem.
Of course this would require a significant overhaul of the game, but that's the solution anyways.
This is the only real solution.
usernamesareannoying wrote:we fixed it in my group by completely removing the first turn and just going straight to the last turn.
we set everything up, roll a dice and whoever gets the highest wins.
it really knocks out all of the arguments and balance problems.
The longer I dwell here, the more it sounds like this is everything players want but just won't admit to themselves
Marmatag wrote: With the addition of new codexes, first turn advantage has diminished quite a bit.
Also, in ITC progressive scoring missions, with scoring done at the end of the game turn as well as player turns, getting the last turn before game turn scoring is a big deal.
I recently played in a tournament and chose to go second every game.
Sure, but the pages upon pages of ITC rulings are a much more extensive and invasive set of houserules with far more wideranging changes to the game than the little CP-activation suggested above.
ITC 40K is very from vanilla 40K.
This is incorrect in 8th edition. There is very little editing done from base line 8th to move into ITC - effectively its an addition of scenarios a few small bits of clarity.
Brigade
3 x company commander
6 x infantry squad
3 x command squad
3 x scout sentinels
3 x basilisk
2x 3 moratar team
Brigade
3 x company commander
6 x infantry squad
3 x command squad
3 x scout sentinels
3 x Mantacore
2x 3 moratar team
(mind you I made this in about a minute) 21 CP - I bid 0 every game to give me at worst a roll off for first turn, on which if my opponent is say GK and have 7 CP, units which need to move to shoot, have psychic powers etc. SO if the GK player wins first turn he activates 2-3 units, which generally are going to attack my screen then I blow him off the table.
The GK player, assuming sanity, would never bid 0, so you would go first with your 21 CP. Now you would be in the situation of getting an alpha-strike with half of your units, spending double-digit CP's to do so. A huge nerf from the regular alpha strike, where you can move and shoot with ALL of your units and keep ALL 21 CP's. And even though you would have needlessly crippled yourself by bidding 0, you would probably win because GK sucks. But it is still a lot of CP's to spend in order to shoot a little at his 3 storm-ravens in a corner deployment.
IF scout moves don't count as needing CP I'll bid 1 or 2 CP against your ork list. With 9 CP what are you doing shooting my screen with a KMK? and jump charging 1 unit of boyz? This system is hugely advantageous to units that don't need to move
Scout moves does not count as needing a CP. So, given that, what would you bid as the Guard player in the scenario I proposed to Peregrine above?
Blacksails wrote:The only real way to fix 1st turn nonsense has always been to do away with the archaic UGOIGO turn system. Alternating unit activations entirely eliminates this problem.
Of course this would require a significant overhaul of the game, but that's the solution anyways.
This is the only real solution.
A house rule that requires a significant overhaul of the entire game is not really a solution at all. Also, boobs are nice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/05 14:41:20
A house rule that requires a significant overhaul of the entire game is not really a solution at all.
To be fair, a house rule that doesn't solve the issue and causes other imbalances is also not a solution, which is basically every suggestion in this thread so far.
Also, boobs are nice.
They are indeed.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
I'm more a proponent of adapting and learning to overcome challenges rather than legislating around them.
I'm sure some small rules and point tweaks are warranted, but this seems a bit drastic. Though I support others giving it a shot on a broad scale and if it seems worthwhile we can give GW a shout.
Brigade
3 x company commander
6 x infantry squad
3 x command squad
3 x scout sentinels
3 x basilisk
2x 3 moratar team
Brigade
3 x company commander
6 x infantry squad
3 x command squad
3 x scout sentinels
3 x Mantacore
2x 3 moratar team
(mind you I made this in about a minute) 21 CP - I bid 0 every game to give me at worst a roll off for first turn, on which if my opponent is say GK and have 7 CP, units which need to move to shoot, have psychic powers etc. SO if the GK player wins first turn he activates 2-3 units, which generally are going to attack my screen then I blow him off the table.
The GK player, assuming sanity, would never bid 0, so you would go first with your 21 CP. Now you would be in the situation of getting an alpha-strike with half of your units, spending double-digit CP's to do so. A huge nerf from the regular alpha strike, where you can move and shoot with ALL of your units and keep ALL 21 CP's. And even though you would have needlessly crippled yourself by bidding 0, you would probably win because GK sucks. But it is still a lot of CP's to spend in order to shoot a little at his 3 storm-ravens in a corner deployment.
Except I largely won't need all those CP to be effective, and I would not need to spend very much to shoot everything I care about shooting at his units. Still get my alpha strike, be guaranteed turn 1. Further 3 storm ravens is the only viable GK build because then his 6 CP can move and shoot his 3 main units. So as IG I'd bid a bunch of CP let him go first, spread out and deny him shooting at anything I care about and table him.
IF scout moves don't count as needing CP I'll bid 1 or 2 CP against your ork list. With 9 CP what are you doing shooting my screen with a KMK? and jump charging 1 unit of boyz? This system is hugely advantageous to units that don't need to move
Scout moves does not count as needing a CP. So, given that, what would you bid as the Guard player in the scenario I proposed to Peregrine above?
Regards.
I wouldn't build that guard Army, using the one I built (or close). For you to have an effective turn 1 that I care about you would need to spend 6 CP to shoot your KMKs, 2 to cast your powers, and 2 to charge and fight with your boyz mob (not sure if you have just 6 commandos or 6 units) but even without them that is 10 CP to maybe do something. Even then I would not be greatly worried, I'd bid 2 points. If you want to take first turn you would do very little, otherwise I get to shoot you with impunity, Even if you let me go first I still have more CP than you after my turn 1.
IF scout type deployments don't count I could also go For guard brigade + raptors(Raven guard) alpha strike with something like 15 CP starting. Basically if I run an army that does not need to pay to move, pay to charge, pay to fight(unless that is free, you said a CP every phase), but if I only need to pay CP to shoot I can do way more damage, so Artillery is super powerful on that turn 1.
The issue you have is you are assuming lists designed for current 40k, the problem is when you do this you go back to essentially whoever finishes deploying first goes first. List building becomes a game to abuse the system you put in place.
as I sid before 8th dropped (because first turn advantage isnt a new thing) 40k needs to switch to alternating activation or random activation so your opponent isnt bored to death watching you kill his army.
Necrons - 6000+
Eldar/DE/Harlequins- 6000+
Genestealer Cult - 2000
Currently enthralled by Blanchitsu and INQ28.
I'm not sure the first turn advantage is so big as to require fixing. Isn't the fact that the first turn goes to the smaller force five sixths of the time in itself a form of balance? If people are getting a significant amount of their army wiped by first turn alpha strikes it could probably be remedied by more terrain, greater planning or better deployment.
I used to be in favor of bidding CP for the first turn, but the issue is CP aren't valuable enough, many Alpha strike armies would happily bid all to remove the randomness of going first. Any decent solution will have to be a combo of individual tweaks.
My group of tweaks:
1.) No deep strike in the first round
2.) Units that start their movement outside of the player's deployment zone can not assault in the first round.
3.) 1st story of buildings do not automatically block line of sight to vehicles.
The third one is the only one that requires any explanation, Currently in ITC, because of the rule about first floor blocking LoS, there are too many places where artillery vehicles can be out of LoS. Since you can't get LoS they will be effectively unkillable until their screening units are dispersed. The Goal of this change is to make such artillery alpha strikes armies less safe, both in the first turn and after. There will still be places where artillery can hide but there will be a lot less of it, and it will be much easier to get around.
Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.
craftworld_uk wrote: I'm not sure the first turn advantage is so big as to require fixing. Isn't the fact that the first turn goes to the smaller force five sixths of the time in itself a form of balance? If people are getting a significant amount of their army wiped by first turn alpha strikes it could probably be remedied by more terrain, greater planning or better deployment.
Not really in that the smaller force probably had loaded up on high points cost weapons or tech instead of generic boots on the ground.
Blacksails wrote: The only real way to fix 1st turn nonsense has always been to do away with the archaic UGOIGO turn system. Alternating unit activations entirely eliminates this problem.
Of course this would require a significant overhaul of the game, but that's the solution anyways.
I agree that alternating activations would fix the alpha strike problem, but I disagree with the idea that it would require a significant overhaul of the game (still a few tweaks, though). You could implement alternating activations in the next game you played with minimal disruption; at the very least, any disruption you did see would be outweighed by the benefits of diminished alpha strike. You could just roll off each turn to see who gets first activation, with the loser getting 1CP in compensation.
Having said that, there are cases where assigning one activation for one unit can be a problem. Lords of War might need to declare "windup" and/or "cooldown" activations that are effectively "pass" activations, in order to allow the opponent to prepare for, or respond to, the damage they cause in their main activation.
The issue is actually the opposite, Lords of War are hurt badly by straight alternating activation, as if I play lots of units with a deepstrike alpha strike, I can force those Lords of war to activate, maybe kill a small unit or 2, then get alpha struck off the table. The game would need a significant overhaul to go to straight alternate activations, there are variations of alternate activation that could work more easily, but using straight alternate activations changes the value of units quite a bit. Aura Buffs are worse, buff psykers are worse, some powers are near unusable (Da Jump from orks is horrible in alternate activation without a re-write), How do drop pods work? They are a unit right so the unit that jumps out cannot activate and gets murdered.
I agree that a transition to alternating activation would be better, but it needs a lot of work to actually function in the current 40k.
It's not that difficult or significant.
Where logical you activate 2-3 units at a time.
If you activate a unit within 3" of a character the character can activate with that unit. If a character activates within 3" of a body guard that can protect them the body guard can activate with them.
When you activate a transport you can either activate the transport itself or the units inside. If you activate the transport it moves and shoots like now. If the unit inside could shoot out of the transport it can do so with the transport. If the unit inside is activated it disembarks and does it's activation. If there is a character embarked with a unit you can activate the character using the rule above (embarked together is considered to be within 3").
When you select a unit from reserves to activate you deploy it and do it's activation. If that reserves unit is a transport or otherwise brings units with it you activate the embarked units at the same time.
Ork Psykers that can cast Da Jump are Characters. Activate the unit of Boyz, use the first rule to activate the Weirdboy with it, Do the characters activation first to manifest Da Jump, do the Boyz activation second to make use of it.
It's not particularly hard.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/05 18:23:46
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Blacksails wrote: The only real way to fix 1st turn nonsense has always been to do away with the archaic UGOIGO turn system. Alternating unit activations entirely eliminates this problem.
Of course this would require a significant overhaul of the game, but that's the solution anyways.
I agree that alternating activations would fix the alpha strike problem, but I disagree with the idea that it would require a significant overhaul of the game (still a few tweaks, though). You could implement alternating activations in the next game you played with minimal disruption; at the very least, any disruption you did see would be outweighed by the benefits of diminished alpha strike. You could just roll off each turn to see who gets first activation, with the loser getting 1CP in compensation.
Having said that, there are cases where assigning one activation for one unit can be a problem. Lords of War might need to declare "windup" and/or "cooldown" activations that are effectively "pass" activations, in order to allow the opponent to prepare for, or respond to, the damage they cause in their main activation.
The issue is actually the opposite, Lords of War are hurt badly by straight alternating activation, as if I play lots of units with a deepstrike alpha strike, I can force those Lords of war to activate, maybe kill a small unit or 2, then get alpha struck off the table. The game would need a significant overhaul to go to straight alternate activations, there are variations of alternate activation that could work more easily, but using straight alternate activations changes the value of units quite a bit. Aura Buffs are worse, buff psykers are worse, some powers are near unusable (Da Jump from orks is horrible in alternate activation without a re-write), How do drop pods work? They are a unit right so the unit that jumps out cannot activate and gets murdered.
I agree that a transition to alternating activation would be better, but it needs a lot of work to actually function in the current 40k.
It's not that difficult or significant.
Where logical you activate 2-3 units at a time.
If you activate a unit within 3" of a character the character can activate with that unit. If a character activates within 3" of a body guard that can protect them the body guard can activate with them.
When you activate a transport you can either activate the transport itself or the units inside. If you activate the transport it moves and shoots like now. If the unit inside could shoot out of the transport it can do so with the transport. If the unit inside is activated it disembarks and does it's activation. If there is a character embarked with a unit you can activate the character using the rule above (embarked together is considered to be within 3").
When you select a unit from reserves to activate you deploy it and do it's activation. If that reserves unit is a transport or otherwise brings units with it you activate the embarked units at the same time.
Ork Psykers that can cast Da Jump are Characters. Activate the unit of Boyz, use the first rule to activate the Weirdboy with it, Do the characters activation first to manifest Da Jump, do the Boyz activation second to make use of it.
It's not particularly hard.
Except that you then needed to re-write your simple alternating activation to get all of that to work. The transport rule still doesn't solve units like drop pods, unless you are saying that deepstriking a vehicle does not count as activating it. What about Trygons? Units using the tunnel now cannot activate.
Can I activate all characters within 3" of a unit or only 1 character? If multiples what stops character spam armies from abusing the system?
I just provided a few examples where it does not work and you already had to back track on simple alternating and add additional rules to get those things to work.
Like I said alternate activation is not impossible, but it requires a significant set of changes to the rules to get it to work properly.
I could solve all the issues you describe much easier than what you have done.
Each player divides their army into battlegroups consisting of as close to 500 points as possible. When on a players "turn" he may activate 1 of these groups (which can move, cast psychic powers, shoot, charge, fight), then play passes to his opponent how activates 1 of his groups. Once both players have activated all of their battle groups the battle round ends.
Blacksails wrote: The only real way to fix 1st turn nonsense has always been to do away with the archaic UGOIGO turn system. Alternating unit activations entirely eliminates this problem.
Of course this would require a significant overhaul of the game, but that's the solution anyways.
I agree that alternating activations would fix the alpha strike problem, but I disagree with the idea that it would require a significant overhaul of the game (still a few tweaks, though). You could implement alternating activations in the next game you played with minimal disruption; at the very least, any disruption you did see would be outweighed by the benefits of diminished alpha strike. You could just roll off each turn to see who gets first activation, with the loser getting 1CP in compensation.
Having said that, there are cases where assigning one activation for one unit can be a problem. Lords of War might need to declare "windup" and/or "cooldown" activations that are effectively "pass" activations, in order to allow the opponent to prepare for, or respond to, the damage they cause in their main activation.
The issue is actually the opposite, Lords of War are hurt badly by straight alternating activation, as if I play lots of units with a deepstrike alpha strike, I can force those Lords of war to activate, maybe kill a small unit or 2, then get alpha struck off the table. The game would need a significant overhaul to go to straight alternate activations, there are variations of alternate activation that could work more easily, but using straight alternate activations changes the value of units quite a bit. Aura Buffs are worse, buff psykers are worse, some powers are near unusable (Da Jump from orks is horrible in alternate activation without a re-write), How do drop pods work? They are a unit right so the unit that jumps out cannot activate and gets murdered.
I agree that a transition to alternating activation would be better, but it needs a lot of work to actually function in the current 40k.
It's not that difficult or significant.
Where logical you activate 2-3 units at a time.
If you activate a unit within 3" of a character the character can activate with that unit. If a character activates within 3" of a body guard that can protect them the body guard can activate with them.
When you activate a transport you can either activate the transport itself or the units inside. If you activate the transport it moves and shoots like now. If the unit inside could shoot out of the transport it can do so with the transport. If the unit inside is activated it disembarks and does it's activation. If there is a character embarked with a unit you can activate the character using the rule above (embarked together is considered to be within 3").
When you select a unit from reserves to activate you deploy it and do it's activation. If that reserves unit is a transport or otherwise brings units with it you activate the embarked units at the same time.
Ork Psykers that can cast Da Jump are Characters. Activate the unit of Boyz, use the first rule to activate the Weirdboy with it, Do the characters activation first to manifest Da Jump, do the Boyz activation second to make use of it.
Except that you then needed to re-write your simple alternating activation to get all of that to work. The transport rule still doesn't solve units like drop pods, unless you are saying that deepstriking a vehicle does not count as activating it. What about Trygons? Units using the tunnel now cannot activate.
If you read what I wrote this is clearly spelled out. The transport is in reserves. Its your turn. You activate the drop pod, which is what allows it to be deployed and deepstriked. Was there a unit in the drop pod? It activates too.
The trygon is sitting in reserves. On your turn you activate it, which allows it to deploy onto the table and do it's turn. Was there a unit with the trygon? It activates too.
Can I activate all characters within 3" of a unit or only 1 character? If multiples what stops character spam armies from abusing the system?
All. It's an expansion of heroic intervention. What stops "Spam armies" from abusing the system is the same thing you were just complainiing about. MSU. If you want to activated 10 Astropaths as one big activation to try to move them within 18" of unit and fire off 10 mini smites then you just lost 10 activations and my next chunk of activations will be laying those astropaths to waste. Meanwhile you just lost 10 whole units because you tried to activate too much.
It's the same thing as normal MSU or larger units in a alternating activation system. MSU has little or no impact per an activation, a few massive point units are too inflexible and will get out maneuvered. Play smart.
I just provided a few examples where it does not work and you already had to back track on simple alternating and add additional rules to get those things to work.
Like I said alternate activation is not impossible, but it requires a significant set of changes to the rules to get it to work properly.
No you didn't. You just seemed to have trouble understanding what I wrote.
The changes are not significant. It's just logical. You activate things together that wouldn't actually work if they couldn't.
I could solve all the issues you describe much easier than what you have done.
Each player divides their army into battlegroups consisting of as close to 500 points as possible. When on a players "turn" he may activate 1 of these groups (which can move, cast psychic powers, shoot, charge, fight), then play passes to his opponent how activates 1 of his groups. Once both players have activated all of their battle groups the battle round ends.
Done, no other rules are needed.
Crap rule with problems you don't see for some reason. The units in 40k are meant to be moving all over the board and synergizing with lots of different units. What happens when one battlegroup gets reduced to a couple characters who can no longer keep up with the other battle groups? What happens to their auras? What happens to their protections? What happens when units don't fit into your 500 point blocks. like trying to bring the swarmlord and 3 tyrant guard in 2 tyrannocytes. Thats closer to 700 points then 500. You could split them into other battlegroups easy enough to make 2 different battelgroups, but then the tyrant guard will never be in range of the swarmlord, making the whole set up unplayable.
Your battlegroup rule is crap.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/12/05 19:32:23
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Except I largely won't need all those CP to be effective, and I would not need to spend very much to shoot everything I care about shooting at his units. Still get my alpha strike, be guaranteed turn 1. Further 3 storm ravens is the only viable GK build because then his 6 CP can move and shoot his 3 main units. So as IG I'd bid a bunch of CP let him go first, spread out and deny him shooting at anything I care about and table him.
First you claim that bidding 0 was a no-brainer, and now you want to bid a bunch of CP's letting him get first turn? Which one is it? If you do as you propose, he would get first turn with a handfull of additional CP's. And with a traditional GK-army of three stormravens with terminators and the rest in reserves, he could do a lot of damage. In both cases the advantage of your two brigades and 21 CP's is nil, even though you would probably win by brute force and number of bodies alone.
I wouldn't build that guard Army, using the one I built (or close). For you to have an effective turn 1 that I care about you would need to spend 6 CP to shoot your KMKs, 2 to cast your powers, and 2 to charge and fight with your boyz mob (not sure if you have just 6 commandos or 6 units) but even without them that is 10 CP to maybe do something. Even then I would not be greatly worried, I'd bid 2 points. If you want to take first turn you would do very little, otherwise I get to shoot you with impunity, Even if you let me go first I still have more CP than you after my turn 1.
If you'd bid 2 points you would be certain of going first. And you would then need to spend 18 of your 21 CP's to just shoot (without moving) with HALF of your army. That sure is a crippling nerf you imposed on yourself right there.
As Orks I'd bid around six or seven. I would have to contend with your full firepower anyways, but with 6 movements before the barrage I could advance all my blobs to the edge of the KFF, or I could shoot all of the KMK killing the punisher tank commander. Six CP's is more than enough to take a little bit of the bite out of a Guard alpha-strike. And that is what this system does: It pushes the alpha strike back to the second turn of the first battle round, allowing the first player a handfull of moves or shooting actions before it begins.
Using CP's to conduct a full alpha strike in the first turn is only possible by having very FEW units, like 3 knights and Guilliman or something like that, which is the systems real weakness. Having two brigades of Guard infantry would certainly not work, as you would need 36 CP's just to fire their weapons.
IF scout type deployments don't count I could also go For guard brigade + raptors(Raven guard) alpha strike with something like 15 CP starting. Basically if I run an army that does not need to pay to move, pay to charge, pay to fight(unless that is free, you said a CP every phase), but if I only need to pay CP to shoot I can do way more damage, so Artillery is super powerful on that turn 1.
The sentinel scout-move does not require CP's because it is an abillity, and it happens before the first turn. But the strike from the shadows stratagem is not free, so you would have to spend 2 CP's for every unit that you would want to infiltrate and shoot with, and 4 CPs if you also wants them to move and charge. There is nothing game-breaking here, the system works as it should.
And yes, artillery would be super-powerfull on turn 1. It already is. Having to pay 1 CP to shoot that mortar HWS would certainly not make it MORE powerfull.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grimgold wrote: I used to be in favor of bidding CP for the first turn, but the issue is CP aren't valuable enough, many Alpha strike armies would happily bid all to remove the randomness of going first. Any decent solution will have to be a combo of individual tweaks.
Then just don't call it CP's. Call it candy-points.
Both players write down a number on a piece of paper, and whoever wrote the lower number gets that amount of candy points. Candy points allows a player to activate some amount of units before the other player gets his alpha strike. It is a simple system, at it is very easy to tweak. Like requiring different amount of candy for moving, shooting and deepstriking, and requiring extra candy for LoW and very expensive units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/05 19:52:55
Blacksails wrote: The only real way to fix 1st turn nonsense has always been to do away with the archaic UGOIGO turn system. Alternating unit activations entirely eliminates this problem.
Of course this would require a significant overhaul of the game, but that's the solution anyways.
I agree that alternating activations would fix the alpha strike problem, but I disagree with the idea that it would require a significant overhaul of the game (still a few tweaks, though). You could implement alternating activations in the next game you played with minimal disruption; at the very least, any disruption you did see would be outweighed by the benefits of diminished alpha strike. You could just roll off each turn to see who gets first activation, with the loser getting 1CP in compensation.
Having said that, there are cases where assigning one activation for one unit can be a problem. Lords of War might need to declare "windup" and/or "cooldown" activations that are effectively "pass" activations, in order to allow the opponent to prepare for, or respond to, the damage they cause in their main activation.
The issue is actually the opposite, Lords of War are hurt badly by straight alternating activation, as if I play lots of units with a deepstrike alpha strike, I can force those Lords of war to activate, maybe kill a small unit or 2, then get alpha struck off the table. The game would need a significant overhaul to go to straight alternate activations, there are variations of alternate activation that could work more easily, but using straight alternate activations changes the value of units quite a bit. Aura Buffs are worse, buff psykers are worse, some powers are near unusable (Da Jump from orks is horrible in alternate activation without a re-write), How do drop pods work? They are a unit right so the unit that jumps out cannot activate and gets murdered.
I agree that a transition to alternating activation would be better, but it needs a lot of work to actually function in the current 40k.
It's not that difficult or significant.
Where logical you activate 2-3 units at a time.
If you activate a unit within 3" of a character the character can activate with that unit. If a character activates within 3" of a body guard that can protect them the body guard can activate with them.
When you activate a transport you can either activate the transport itself or the units inside. If you activate the transport it moves and shoots like now. If the unit inside could shoot out of the transport it can do so with the transport. If the unit inside is activated it disembarks and does it's activation. If there is a character embarked with a unit you can activate the character using the rule above (embarked together is considered to be within 3").
When you select a unit from reserves to activate you deploy it and do it's activation. If that reserves unit is a transport or otherwise brings units with it you activate the embarked units at the same time.
Ork Psykers that can cast Da Jump are Characters. Activate the unit of Boyz, use the first rule to activate the Weirdboy with it, Do the characters activation first to manifest Da Jump, do the Boyz activation second to make use of it.
Except that you then needed to re-write your simple alternating activation to get all of that to work. The transport rule still doesn't solve units like drop pods, unless you are saying that deepstriking a vehicle does not count as activating it. What about Trygons? Units using the tunnel now cannot activate.
If you read what I wrote this is clearly spelled out. The transport is in reserves. Its your turn. You activate the drop pod, which is what allows it to be deployed and deepstriked. Was there a unit in the drop pod? It activates too.
The trygon is sitting in reserves. On your turn you activate it, which allows it to deploy onto the table and do it's turn. Was there a unit with the trygon? It activates too.
So then taking things like Trygons is super powerful, still has problems.
Can I activate all characters within 3" of a unit or only 1 character? If multiples what stops character spam armies from abusing the system?
All. It's an expansion of heroic intervention. What stops "Spam armies" from abusing the system is the same thing you were just complainiing about. MSU. If you want to activated 10 Astropaths as one big activation to try to move them within 18" of unit and fire off 10 mini smites then you just lost 10 activations and my next chunk of activations will be laying those astropaths to waste. Meanwhile you just lost 10 whole units because you tried to activate too much.
It's the same thing as normal MSU or larger units in a alternating activation system. MSU has little or no impact per an activation, a few massive point units are too inflexible and will get out maneuvered. Play smart.
Except this makes MSU even more powerful, do I need to force you to activate first. I do it. Am I in position to wipe you out by activating my 10 characters at once, I do it. Still a problem
I just provided a few examples where it does not work and you already had to back track on simple alternating and add additional rules to get those things to work.
Like I said alternate activation is not impossible, but it requires a significant set of changes to the rules to get it to work properly.
No you didn't. You just seemed to have trouble understanding what I wrote.
The changes are not significant. It's just logical. You activate things together that wouldn't actually work if they couldn't.
Which then creates loopholes in your alternating activation, which you need to address. You say "if things wouldn't work" who defines that, where are the exceptions made? A psyker might work ok on his own, or he might not, why do all characters get to mass activate if they want?
I could solve all the issues you describe much easier than what you have done.
Each player divides their army into battlegroups consisting of as close to 500 points as possible. When on a players "turn" he may activate 1 of these groups (which can move, cast psychic powers, shoot, charge, fight), then play passes to his opponent how activates 1 of his groups. Once both players have activated all of their battle groups the battle round ends.
Done, no other rules are needed.
Crap rule with problems you don't see for some reason. The units in 40k are meant to be moving all over the board and synergizing with lots of different units. What happens when one battlegroup gets reduced to a couple characters who can no longer keep up with the other battle groups? What happens to their auras? What happens to their protections? What happens when units don't fit into your 500 point blocks. like trying to bring the swarmlord and 3 tyrant guard in 2 tyrannocytes. Thats closer to 700 points then 500. You could split them into other battlegroups easy enough to make 2 different battelgroups, but then the tyrant guard will never be in range of the swarmlord, making the whole set up unplayable.
Your battlegroup rule is crap.
How many characters have an issue of not being able to fit into a 500 point block with other units? Rowboat? Your swarmlord and 3 tyrant guard, in tyranocytes, which have worse issues in your system because they can never come in together? If we are allowing such expensive characters to mass activate hope you like Magnus + Mortarian + a knight all activating at once in your system. Maybe you don't put the spores in your example in the same battlegroup as swarmlord and the guard? So they have to wait through 1 activation before they assault Maybe you put them in different groups and engage them with things that cannot fall back because they already activated?
Are there some issues maybe, but it is far less open to abuse than your system.
Except I largely won't need all those CP to be effective, and I would not need to spend very much to shoot everything I care about shooting at his units. Still get my alpha strike, be guaranteed turn 1. Further 3 storm ravens is the only viable GK build because then his 6 CP can move and shoot his 3 main units. So as IG I'd bid a bunch of CP let him go first, spread out and deny him shooting at anything I care about and table him.
First you claim that bidding 0 was a no-brainer, and now you want to bid a bunch of CP's letting him get first turn? Which one is it? If you do as you propose, he would get first turn with a handfull of additional CP's. And with a traditional GK-army of three stormravens with terminators and the rest in reserves, he could do a lot of damage. In both cases the advantage of your two brigades and 21 CP's is nil, even though you would probably win by brute force and number of bodies alone.
They only do damage if they have range and LOS to units that are not chaff, which they won't, unless the table has little to no LOS blockers.
I wouldn't build that guard Army, using the one I built (or close). For you to have an effective turn 1 that I care about you would need to spend 6 CP to shoot your KMKs, 2 to cast your powers, and 2 to charge and fight with your boyz mob (not sure if you have just 6 commandos or 6 units) but even without them that is 10 CP to maybe do something. Even then I would not be greatly worried, I'd bid 2 points. If you want to take first turn you would do very little, otherwise I get to shoot you with impunity, Even if you let me go first I still have more CP than you after my turn 1.
If you'd bid 2 points you would be certain of going first. And you would then need to spend 18 of your 21 CP's to just shoot (without moving) with HALF of your army. That sure is a crippling nerf you imposed on yourself right there.
As Orks I'd bid around six or seven. I would have to contend with your full firepower anyways, but with 6 movements before the barrage I could advance all my blobs to the edge of the KFF, or I could shoot all of the KMK killing the punisher tank commander. Six CP's is more than enough to take a little bit of the bite out of a Guard alpha-strike. And that is what this system does: It pushes the alpha strike back to the second turn of the first battle round, allowing the first player a handfull of moves or shooting actions before it begins.
Using CP's to conduct a full alpha strike in the first turn is only possible by having very FEW units, like 3 knights and Guilliman or something like that, which is the systems real weakness. Having two brigades of Guard infantry would certainly not work, as you would need 36 CP's just to fire their weapons.
But I don't need to shoot with half my army, maybe 10-16 units would bother to shoot turn 1. At which point if I bid 2, and have 22 CP I still would have 6-12 CP left so similar to what you had to start with. You are making assumptions that I care about my chaff shooting turn 1. I don't I care about my artillery, and mortars. Again the list might need some tweaking, but your ork list won't be in range to attack much for several turns so if I cripple your army a bit turn 1 with my great amount of CP, then you move up and I hit you again turn 2 I still win. The point is I take chaff that I don't care about doing anything with other than occupying space, sentinels to move out for free and deny deepstrikers getting close, then I pound you with my power units.
IF scout type deployments don't count I could also go For guard brigade + raptors(Raven guard) alpha strike with something like 15 CP starting. Basically if I run an army that does not need to pay to move, pay to charge, pay to fight(unless that is free, you said a CP every phase), but if I only need to pay CP to shoot I can do way more damage, so Artillery is super powerful on that turn 1.
The sentinel scout-move does not require CP's because it is an abillity, and it happens before the first turn. But the strike from the shadows stratagem is not free, so you would have to spend 2 CP's for every unit that you would want to infiltrate and shoot with, and 4 CPs if you also wants them to move and charge. There is nothing game-breaking here, the system works as it should.
And yes, artillery would be super-powerfull on turn 1. It already is. Having to pay 1 CP to shoot that mortar HWS would certainly not make it MORE powerfull.
What makes it more powerful is getting it and also guaranteed turn 1 if I want it. That is what you are not seeing. Your system is, high CP armies can alpha strike turn 1 and have the advantage at getting turn 1, right now the opposite is true. So sure I spend a bunch on strike from the shadows, units, but if I bring Issodon from Raptors I get a bunch of free infiltrate in addition. So artillery + infiltration = alpha strike with auto-first turn.
Blacksails wrote: The only real way to fix 1st turn nonsense has always been to do away with the archaic UGOIGO turn system. Alternating unit activations entirely eliminates this problem.
Of course this would require a significant overhaul of the game, but that's the solution anyways.
I agree that alternating activations would fix the alpha strike problem, but I disagree with the idea that it would require a significant overhaul of the game (still a few tweaks, though). You could implement alternating activations in the next game you played with minimal disruption; at the very least, any disruption you did see would be outweighed by the benefits of diminished alpha strike. You could just roll off each turn to see who gets first activation, with the loser getting 1CP in compensation.
Having said that, there are cases where assigning one activation for one unit can be a problem. Lords of War might need to declare "windup" and/or "cooldown" activations that are effectively "pass" activations, in order to allow the opponent to prepare for, or respond to, the damage they cause in their main activation.
The issue is actually the opposite, Lords of War are hurt badly by straight alternating activation, as if I play lots of units with a deepstrike alpha strike, I can force those Lords of war to activate, maybe kill a small unit or 2, then get alpha struck off the table. The game would need a significant overhaul to go to straight alternate activations, there are variations of alternate activation that could work more easily, but using straight alternate activations changes the value of units quite a bit. Aura Buffs are worse, buff psykers are worse, some powers are near unusable (Da Jump from orks is horrible in alternate activation without a re-write), How do drop pods work? They are a unit right so the unit that jumps out cannot activate and gets murdered.
I agree that a transition to alternating activation would be better, but it needs a lot of work to actually function in the current 40k.
It's not that difficult or significant.
Where logical you activate 2-3 units at a time.
If you activate a unit within 3" of a character the character can activate with that unit. If a character activates within 3" of a body guard that can protect them the body guard can activate with them.
When you activate a transport you can either activate the transport itself or the units inside. If you activate the transport it moves and shoots like now. If the unit inside could shoot out of the transport it can do so with the transport. If the unit inside is activated it disembarks and does it's activation. If there is a character embarked with a unit you can activate the character using the rule above (embarked together is considered to be within 3").
When you select a unit from reserves to activate you deploy it and do it's activation. If that reserves unit is a transport or otherwise brings units with it you activate the embarked units at the same time.
Ork Psykers that can cast Da Jump are Characters. Activate the unit of Boyz, use the first rule to activate the Weirdboy with it, Do the characters activation first to manifest Da Jump, do the Boyz activation second to make use of it.
Except that you then needed to re-write your simple alternating activation to get all of that to work. The transport rule still doesn't solve units like drop pods, unless you are saying that deepstriking a vehicle does not count as activating it. What about Trygons? Units using the tunnel now cannot activate.
If you read what I wrote this is clearly spelled out. The transport is in reserves. Its your turn. You activate the drop pod, which is what allows it to be deployed and deepstriked. Was there a unit in the drop pod? It activates too.
The trygon is sitting in reserves. On your turn you activate it, which allows it to deploy onto the table and do it's turn. Was there a unit with the trygon? It activates too.
So then taking things like Trygons is super powerful, still has problems.
Oh yeah, totally. A single turn with 1 trygon and a single infantry unit is going to totally break the game.
It's not a problem. It just is what it is. The advantage of these taxi units is the deepstrike and the surprise activation. Next turn they get activated separately. You know whats worse then a trygon and it's one troop? Your entire army.
Can I activate all characters within 3" of a unit or only 1 character? If multiples what stops character spam armies from abusing the system?
All. It's an expansion of heroic intervention. What stops "Spam armies" from abusing the system is the same thing you were just complainiing about. MSU. If you want to activated 10 Astropaths as one big activation to try to move them within 18" of unit and fire off 10 mini smites then you just lost 10 activations and my next chunk of activations will be laying those astropaths to waste. Meanwhile you just lost 10 whole units because you tried to activate too much.
It's the same thing as normal MSU or larger units in a alternating activation system. MSU has little or no impact per an activation, a few massive point units are too inflexible and will get out maneuvered. Play smart.
Except this makes MSU even more powerful, do I need to force you to activate first. I do it. Am I in position to wipe you out by activating my 10 characters at once, I do it. Still a problem
Again, MSU have many units with little or no effect. It's neat in the first round, but then they get annihilated quickly. What happens by turn 3 when more than half your units are gone because they all had no staying power? Have you ever actually play tested this with 40k? Ive been doing it on and off with several systems for the last 2 years. What you are claiming are game breaking problems are in fact just not even problems. Stop looking at activations in a vacuum and consider how players will handle it over the course of a game.
I just provided a few examples where it does not work and you already had to back track on simple alternating and add additional rules to get those things to work.
Like I said alternate activation is not impossible, but it requires a significant set of changes to the rules to get it to work properly.
No you didn't. You just seemed to have trouble understanding what I wrote.
The changes are not significant. It's just logical. You activate things together that wouldn't actually work if they couldn't.
Which then creates loopholes in your alternating activation, which you need to address. You say "if things wouldn't work" who defines that, where are the exceptions made? A psyker might work ok on his own, or he might not, why do all characters get to mass activate if they want?
I see none of it as a problem. Your the one with an issue. Ive already spelled out how it would work out and what advantages and disadvantages exist because of it. The basic structure I laid out is not the best version of alternating activations but it is a fully functional one.
I could solve all the issues you describe much easier than what you have done.
Each player divides their army into battlegroups consisting of as close to 500 points as possible. When on a players "turn" he may activate 1 of these groups (which can move, cast psychic powers, shoot, charge, fight), then play passes to his opponent how activates 1 of his groups. Once both players have activated all of their battle groups the battle round ends.
Done, no other rules are needed.
Crap rule with problems you don't see for some reason. The units in 40k are meant to be moving all over the board and synergizing with lots of different units. What happens when one battlegroup gets reduced to a couple characters who can no longer keep up with the other battle groups? What happens to their auras? What happens to their protections? What happens when units don't fit into your 500 point blocks. like trying to bring the swarmlord and 3 tyrant guard in 2 tyrannocytes. Thats closer to 700 points then 500. You could split them into other battlegroups easy enough to make 2 different battelgroups, but then the tyrant guard will never be in range of the swarmlord, making the whole set up unplayable.
Your battlegroup rule is crap.
How many characters have an issue of not being able to fit into a 500 point block with other units? Rowboat? Your swarmlord and 3 tyrant guard, in tyranocytes, which have worse issues in your system because they can never come in together? If we are allowing such expensive characters to mass activate hope you like Magnus + Mortarian + a knight all activating at once in your system. Maybe you don't put the spores in your example in the same battlegroup as swarmlord and the guard? So they have to wait through 1 activation before they assault Maybe you put them in different groups and engage them with things that cannot fall back because they already activated?
Are there some issues maybe, but it is far less open to abuse than your system.
I disagree it is less open to abuse. Instead of creating a system where each side is activing small clusters AT MOST of units but mostly just activating 1 unit at a time your systems is about activating your army in pre built deathstars. It only SLIGHTLY gives some tactical flexibility (in that you get 4 activations in a 2k game instead of 1) while keeping the game about swinging clubs back and forth at each other with little or no ability to respond.
Not to mention your system creates paper work. If I have 3 units of genestealers and each one is part of a different battle group how the feth am I supposed to keep track of that on the table? Do I need both a token that follows them around all game differentiating them from the other units AND a token to mark each unit in a battlegroup when the battlegroup has been activated? What a nightmare.
You gain none of the actual benefits of alternating unit activation while doubling the problems of both IGOUGO and AA.
Great.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
I mean its not like alternating activations is rocket science. It worked fine in a basic form in epic 40k, a GW game. It would work fine in normal 40k if the game was designed around it.
Bolt Action and its derivatives or dropzone commander are two examples who've done it in different ways but completely successfully.
Alternating activations isn't perfect, but its a far sight better than IGOYOUGO and its a hell of a lot more fun than sitting around rolling saves for half an hour when its not your turn.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress 
Necrons - 6000+
Eldar/DE/Harlequins- 6000+
Genestealer Cult - 2000
Currently enthralled by Blanchitsu and INQ28. 
