Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Now that chapter approved has modified the points cost of what we're previously very competitive (maybe overly competitive) units, what still stands out? What's a must take for a competitive build? Most 2k tournament lists I saw before CA are now 200-300 points over.

There have been no significant changes.

Conscripts nerfed to oblivion, astropaths doubled in price, taurox primes and melts guns with significant price increases, I'm not saying AM isn't viable, but you can't argue there are no significant changes.

Manticores and wyverns are still boss and way undercosted. Start there.

Is the manticore worth the extra 35 points over the basilisk?

This has to be a joke thread.

Guard were not significantly impacted by anything in chapter approved. You still dominate every phase of the game without even trying.

The same netlists that have been dominating the meta will still continue to do so. If you haven't discovered manticores, wyverns, taurox primes, plasma scions yet... Where have you been?

A bit harsh, but accurate.

Sub conscripts for infantry - win most your games. Nothing changes. Manticores are worth it - best shooting unit in the game probably. Mortars are also worth it - take lots of mortars.

AM is currently a "have" faction. We pretty much "have" it all. There's no real weakness to fall into, unless you like the really weird stuff but even then, I assume you use a decent amount of the core units so shouldn't have a problem.

We're the Eldar of 8th edition. We have all the tools to play to the win conditions of this edition. It's hard to go wrong. You could pretty much randomly determine the contents of an army list, and you'd be ok vs most opponents.

Maybe not literally, but you'd have to try / use a heavily skewed list to build something "Bad" army list wise.

At this point, we're in a fortunate position to be able to play whatever we want, and have it be competitive. I wish all factions were so fortunate.

Take Infantry Squads. The artillery and Tanks are great. But Guardsmen are probably the best unit in the game right now. Amazing durability, punishing damage-output, and they will dominate the objective-game. Combine them with one of the two best doctrines: Vostroyan or armageddon.

I had already dropped conscripts after the commissar nerf and can definitely say standard squads are they way to go.

I've swapped my Salamander Command Tank for Master of Ordnance and ratling squad. The left over points pay for my wyvern's new point cost - although I am considering swapping them for more effective artillery.

Riggs wrote:
Is the manticore worth the extra 35 points over the basilisk?

Leaving the heavy bolters aside, Manticore is 35% more expensive than basilisk for an average of 7 shots vs 4, a 75% improvement. If you are also catachan I think the numbers are similar. Seems worthwhile to me, but currently I am running catachan basilisks and will see how that works out.

Main issue is Manticore is AP -2 instead of -3, is "more eggs in one basket" compared to a Basilisk, and cannot fire its main weapon on turn 5 or turn 6.

 greatbigtree wrote:
AM is currently a "have" faction. We pretty much "have" it all. There's no real weakness to fall into, unless you like the really weird stuff but even then, I assume you use a decent amount of the core units so shouldn't have a problem.

We're the Eldar of 8th edition. We have all the tools to play to the win conditions of this edition. It's hard to go wrong. You could pretty much randomly determine the contents of an army list, and you'd be ok vs most opponents.

Maybe not literally, but you'd have to try / use a heavily skewed list to build something "Bad" army list wise.

At this point, we're in a fortunate position to be able to play whatever we want, and have it be competitive. I wish all factions were so fortunate.

Thank you for your honesty. Exalted.

Riggs wrote:
Now that chapter approved has modified the points cost of what we're previously very competitive (maybe overly competitive) units, what still stands out? What's a must take for a competitive build? Most 2k tournament lists I saw before CA are now 200-300 points over.

unless they were really loading up heavy on conscripts, most lists I see are 30-90pts above where they were, most shouldnr be too terribly impacted.

Im not sure I like Wyverns much anymore, Conscripts are pointless, and Meltaguns on BS3+ platforms might as well not exist anymore, but the Manticore, Astropath and Primaris psyker increases were fine.

I dont see why the point of the Tempestus Command Rod nerf was though, and I think the Taurox and Taurox Prime is hideously overcosted now, but then I cant stand the Taurox model anyway and dont run or own any

 Vaktathi wrote:

Riggs wrote:
Now that chapter approved has modified the points cost of what we're previously very competitive (maybe overly competitive) units, what still stands out? What's a must take for a competitive build? Most 2k tournament lists I saw before CA are now 200-300 points over.

unless they were really loading up heavy on conscripts, most lists I see are 30-90pts above where they were, most shouldnr be too terribly impacted.

Im not sure I like Wyverns much anymore, Conscripts are pointless, and Meltaguns on BS3+ platforms might as well not exist anymore, but the Manticore, Astropath and Primaris psyker increases were fine.

I dont see why the point of the Tempestus Command Rod nerf was though, and I think the Taurox and Taurox Prime is hideously overcosted now, but then I cant stand the Taurox model anyway and dont run or own any

The taurox price increase was a bit of a head scratcher (frankly they should be a similar price as the chimera since they trade off speed, space, and toughness) but the Prime was well deserved, for the price you were paying you were getting Russ level firepower at close range with a troop capacity.

Eh, the Prime doesnt really match a Russ for firepower. We've got a D6 shot S7 cannon which isnt matching up to a potential 2d6 S8 shot gun, an S4 20 shot gun thats measuring up against a potentially 40 shot S5 gun, and a two shot missile launcher thats more expensive than any Russ weapon, on a T6 vehicle.

The normal Taurox I thought was fine before, the Chimera I thought was painfully overcosted given its armament and cargo.

Riggs wrote:
Conscripts nerfed to oblivion, astropaths doubled in price, taurox primes and melts guns with significant price increases, I'm not saying AM isn't viable, but you can't argue there are no significant changes.

And none of that has any impact on how AM functions in a competitive meta.

Good god. Some people get such a massive hard on for guard hate. We get it. You're salty. Really god damn salty. You've been salty for months.

As for fellow guard players, don't pay attention to these people. They want you to self-flagellate and apologize for the rest of 8th edition. You have nothing to apologize for.

I'm pretty sure the majority of high tourney placements are still loyalist and chaos marines, but you're not allowed to say anything about them, unless it's how "tacticals suck" and how "they're not having fun with 8th edition anymore". I'm just so tired of it.

ThePorcupine wrote:
I'm pretty sure the majority of high tourney placements are still loyalist and chaos marines

I am admittedly not very keyed-in to the tournament scene, but from posts I've seen around here of tournament placings loyalist marines are not typically placing near the top anymore, and those that place at all require RG to function. I know even less about chaos, but the impression I've gotten is that it's mostly been soup armies with a heavy reliance on FW (especially Malefic Lords, hence the nerf) that have been dominating. Is this not the case? At what tournaments have marines of various flavors been dominating, at least since the Guard, Eldar, Nid, etc codexes have dropped?

ThePorcupine wrote:
As for fellow guard players, don't pay attention to these people. They want you to self-flagellate and apologize for the rest of 8th edition. You have nothing to apologize for.

Personally, just I want their armies better written.

M.

I don't hate AM. But nothing in Chapter Approved makes that army worse relatively.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Riggs wrote:
Conscripts nerfed to oblivion, astropaths doubled in price, taurox primes and melts guns with significant price increases, I'm not saying AM isn't viable, but you can't argue there are no significant changes.

And none of that has any impact on how AM functions in a competitive meta.

Right, because the effective deletion of Earthshakers and Conscripts has done absolutely nothing to a competitive Guard list.

AM is top tier also after the CA.
Not much change here.

ThePorcupine wrote:
Good god. Some people get such a massive hard on for guard hate. We get it. You're salty. Really god damn salty. You've been salty for months.

As for fellow guard players, don't pay attention to these people. They want you to self-flagellate and apologize for the rest of 8th edition. You have nothing to apologize for.

I'm pretty sure the majority of high tourney placements are still loyalist and chaos marines, but you're not allowed to say anything about them, unless it's how "tacticals suck" and how "they're not having fun with 8th edition anymore". I'm just so tired of it.

As a guard player, IG absolutely is still just as powerful as before. The tools have changed a bit but they've hardly shook up the meta in a meaningful way. Unless you took lots of FW stuff, FW stuff got smacked around pretty good. Not that you particularly need it (sorry I completely forget FW exists sometimes, I almost never see it locally)

If you can't see why we're so powerful I don't really know what to tell you. Certain problem units like conscripts and commissars are gone, sure, but it's hardly stopped us from succeeding. Infantry squads are one of the best troop units this edition, the only exception being Stormtroopers. Orders are insanely helpful and can cover almost any situation. Regiment traits are so good you can make valid points for each being powerful with the proper build. Psychic powers are good as are the units that use them. Heavy support is cheap and put out good firepower. We are swimming in command points and have excellent strategems. I can go on.

Weaknesses... Yeah I got nothing. Leadership is a non issue most of the time even with commissars gone. Assault is a joke 99% of the time. We straight up counter chaos with Cadia on a level even Grey Knights are jealous of. Deepstrike can never get to priority targets as we have the best screens in the game. You can't outnumber us, you can barely beat us in quality because Stormtroopers are excellent, you can't beat our armor, you can't beat our pyskers, you can't even beat us in things we traditionally sucked at like speed or assault.

I'm not self flagellating and apologizing, I'm just able to understand basic game design and wonder how the heck chapter approved hardly even gave us a slap on the wrist.

Chapter approved did not meaningfully affect the guard's way of doing things. Maybe Manticores aren't a hard autotake over russe's anymore but it's hardly the end of the world. I hate the complaints as much as everyone else does but I highly doubtful any of us didn't complain about Eldar or Tau in 7th or what have you.

So yeah to OP not much has changed. Yes there were points tweaks but they changed precious little, even if you took a high amount of the nerfed units you maybe lost a tank or a few astropaths at most.

It's funny how so many people rant about AM without really knowing what they are talking about.

CA *has* impacted (and I mean nerfed) AM. More than most other armies. Certainly not brutally, except for making some things unplayable (Conscripts) and some others hardly worth it (meltaguns, Astropaths, most FW stuff). AM is still very viable and very powerful, no doubt about that. Broken? Not really. And apart from CA, what is currently 'nerfing' AM is the overall game balance as shown from other codexes, mainly the proliferation of -1 hits. This alone makes most AM long-range firepower a risky choice to invest into, and sometimes (Eldar) pretty much useless. At the moment, the game is evolving towards short-range firefights, and while AM can put up a good fight there it is certainly not broken.

Wyverns overpowered? Yeah, in your dreams.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Im not sure I like Wyverns much anymore, Conscripts are pointless, and Meltaguns on BS3+ platforms might as well not exist anymore, but the Manticore, Astropath and Primaris psyker increases were fine.

I disagree on the Astropath. I agree that it needed to cost more, but doubling its cost seems a bit much. I think 20-25pts (or ~30pts with the 6pt staff) would have been more reasonable.

ThePorcupine wrote:
Good god. Some people get such a massive hard on for guard hate. We get it. You're salty. Really god damn salty. You've been salty for months.

As for fellow guard players, don't pay attention to these people. They want you to self-flagellate and apologize for the rest of 8th edition. You have nothing to apologize for.

I'm pretty sure the majority of high tourney placements are still loyalist and chaos marines, but you're not allowed to say anything about them, unless it's how "tacticals suck" and how "they're not having fun with 8th edition anymore". I'm just so tired of it.

Right? Been collecting guard for nearly 20 years & the amount of vitriol towards guard this edition is worse than 5th edition. Its ridiculous. If all the people complaining about guard were genuinely concerned about "balance" then they would be asking for GW to buff conscripts. That hasn't happened. Conscripts post CA are dead. 4pts per model, 50% chance for orders to work, have little to no synergy with commissar. GW could have accomplished the same results by deleting the entry in the codex. They will end up just like penal legion, medusas, rough riders etc. Commissars which I'd argue are the most iconic unit in the imperial guard next to guardsmen are also obsolete unless you are running Valhallans with relic pistol or a Lord Commissar w/ draconian discipline. They are just as likely to screw you over as help you. Regimental standards are the go to now for ldrship buffs. Minor details though right? Apparently getting gutted every FAQ/update isn't enough.

 Commissar Benny wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Good god. Some people get such a massive hard on for guard hate. We get it. You're salty. Really god damn salty. You've been salty for months.

As for fellow guard players, don't pay attention to these people. They want you to self-flagellate and apologize for the rest of 8th edition. You have nothing to apologize for.

I'm pretty sure the majority of high tourney placements are still loyalist and chaos marines, but you're not allowed to say anything about them, unless it's how "tacticals suck" and how "they're not having fun with 8th edition anymore". I'm just so tired of it.

Right? Been collecting guard for nearly 20 years & the amount of vitriol towards guard this edition is worse than 5th edition. Its ridiculous. If all the people complaining about guard were genuinely concerned about "balance" then they would be asking for GW to buff conscripts. That hasn't happened. Conscripts post CA are dead. 4pts per model, 50% chance for orders to work, have little to no synergy with commissar. GW could have accomplished the same results by deleting the entry in the codex. They will end up just like penal legion, medusas, rough riders etc. Commissars which I'd argue are the most iconic unit in the imperial guard next to guardsmen are also obsolete unless you are running Valhallans with relic pistol or a Lord Commissar w/ draconian discipline. They are just as likely to screw you over as help you. Regimental standards are the go to now for ldrship buffs. Minor details though right? Apparently getting gutted every FAQ/update isn't enough.

The marine whiners don't care about details! They care about *results*. Well, results that confirm the conclusion they've pre-selected. Other results don't count.

 Commissar Benny wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Good god. Some people get such a massive hard on for guard hate. We get it. You're salty. Really god damn salty. You've been salty for months.

As for fellow guard players, don't pay attention to these people. They want you to self-flagellate and apologize for the rest of 8th edition. You have nothing to apologize for.

I'm pretty sure the majority of high tourney placements are still loyalist and chaos marines, but you're not allowed to say anything about them, unless it's how "tacticals suck" and how "they're not having fun with 8th edition anymore". I'm just so tired of it.

Right? Been collecting guard for nearly 20 years & the amount of vitriol towards guard this edition is worse than 5th edition. Its ridiculous. If all the people complaining about guard were genuinely concerned about "balance" then they would be asking for GW to buff conscripts. That hasn't happened. Conscripts post CA are dead. 4pts per model, 50% chance for orders to work, have little to no synergy with commissar. GW could have accomplished the same results by deleting the entry in the codex. They will end up just like penal legion, medusas, rough riders etc. Commissars which I'd argue are the most iconic unit in the imperial guard next to guardsmen are also obsolete unless you are running Valhallans with relic pistol or a Lord Commissar w/ draconian discipline. They are just as likely to screw you over as help you. Regimental standards are the go to now for ldrship buffs. Minor details though right? Apparently getting gutted every FAQ/update isn't enough.

To be fair, i never understood all this "AM IS OP!!!! GW YOU SUCK!!!!!". They were broken for a limited period when they could deploy 200 fearless conscripts, but now? Now i think that they are good and well designed, but in line with the other factions.

The army has definitely been affected by CA, that cannot be argued with, as costs were changed. However, this does not necessarily mean that the army is worse off, just that some choices are now more efficient. If you previously took Conscripts, you should probablyswitch to Infantry Squads. If you took Earthshaker Carriages, you might take Basilisks now.

Everything is not competitive, but you can easily make a very competitive army and the power level of the army has not really changed. In fact, the people hit hardest were those who like to play a particular style and found their mainstay units heavily nerfed.