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That would seem to be correct. They really should have worded all powers with out the If manifested because it is completely unnecessary.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Just follow the steps in the rule book through one at a time. They tell you exactly what to do. You will not be required to look up the targetting restrictions until step 4.

The problem people are having is that they are starting with the wording of the individual powers and trying to work backwards.


I really don't know how someone could read:

"If manifested, select a target within 24"..."

And;

"If manifested, the closest unit takes D3 mortal wounds..."

and then come to the conclusion that the timing is different.


This should never have ended up in YMDC, but the mods were right to move it.

The timing isn't different - you do everything stated after 'if manifested' at the appropriate time. Then move to the next step which is to deny the witch, then to the 4th step where the effects are resolved. I.e. if a unit actually suffers mortal wounds from executioner or smite for example - the wounds are not suffered until the resolution of step 4.

No one has yet made a compelling argument simply against the rules as they are written. If the rules state to do X when Y occurs then you do X when Y occurs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlackSwanDelta wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

BlackSwanDelta wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
That is incorrect - the power states VERBATIM - if manifested choose. The power is manifested when you pass the psychic test, that is what is written in the rulebook. There is no reason to suggest you would never reference the power prior to resolution because you must know the WC for step 2 of the phase.

If that's the case, then it only applies to the Runes of Fate because they have "if manifested", and not the Runes of Battle because none of them say "if manifested" for the Eldar.

So for Runes of Fate you choose before, but for Runes of Battle you choose after.

Again this is incorrect - each and every rune of fate includes the language "If manifested'

Conceal: Choose a friendly ASURYANI INFANTRY or ASURYANI
BIKER unit within 18" of the psyker – your opponent must
subtract 1 from all hit rolls for ranged weapons that target that
unit until your next Psychic phase.

Reveal: Choose an enemy unit within 18" of the psyker – it does
not gain any bonus to its saving throws for being in cover until
your next Psychic phase.

Straight out of the book. "If manifested" isn't there in any of the Runes of Battle, only in the Runes of Fate like Doom/Guide/etc.

EDIT: formatting

Read immediately above the language you've quoted and you will find VERBATIM - Conceal/Reveal has a warp charge of 6. if manifested choose one of the following.

Edited for tone.

Woops

Correct - so you see that it says 'if manifested' correct?

Ok, yeah, you're right. But still, "if" and "when" are two different things and make the difference.

I think Farseer has the tight of this, RAW-wise. Manifestation occurs before the rest by the explicit language. In this case "if manifested" is the same as "once manifested" just like if I said "if you cross the bridge, go right" as opposed to "once you cross the bridge, go right".

You're skipping the first part of the RoB description.

That seems very counterintuitive considering all of the powers would then need to be fully completed before anyone would care to decide if they wanted to deny, and then we have to undo everything.

Edit: which would still make step 4 entirely worthless and unnecessary.

BlackSwanDelta wrote:
Ok, yeah, you're right. But still, "if" and "when" are two different things and make the difference.

Re-reading - I never see the book or the psychic powers reference 'when' only if. Where am I missing then statement 'when manifested'?

It just says to choose one of the following if it's manifested.

it doesn't say partially resolve the targeting description if manifested.

You're just picking which one that is going to get resolved.

It actually does say to partially resolve the targeting - it says if manifested then do X. So it does tell us when to resolve each portion of the power.

Again I fail to see a RAW argument against this - the rules are explicitly clear here purely as they are written. If X occurs do Y.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

BlackSwanDelta wrote:
Ok, yeah, you're right. But still, "if" and "when" are two different things and make the difference.

Re-reading - I never see the book or the psychic powers reference 'when' only if. Where am I missing then statement 'when manifested'?

My entire point is that it doesn't say "when", that's the entire crux of the issue.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
It actually does say to partially resolve the targeting - it says if manifested then do X. So it does tell us when to resolve each portion of the power.

Again I fail to see a RAW argument against this - the rules are explicitly clear here purely as they are written. If X occurs do Y.

It doesn't say to resolve anything until step 4. It simply says if it's manifested, you choose one of the following. Then, if it's resolved, you execute the description which contains the targeting. Choosing the power doesn't resolve anything.

Black Swan was clearly referencing the Runes of Battle, which only say "If manifested, choose one of the following." There is nothing about targeting in that.

Fair point and one that by RAW is accurate. To be clear I am referring to specifically RoB here because of the further deceleration of powers defined therein.

 Red_Ink_Cat wrote:
Black Swan was clearly referencing the Runes of Battle, which only say "If manifested, choose one of the following." There is nothing about targeting in that.

To be fair I was being stupid about the "if manifested" slightly different out of it's position compared to the Runes of Fate and then noticed that when it was pointed out I was missing that descriptor line.

You also never addressed that, assuming they really mean you have to do the stuff that comes immediately after "if manifested," there is nothing indicating that the text must be subdivided. Stating "if manifested" at the beginning of every sentence is absolutely insane, but a lot of spoken English goes if x, then y. Sentence expounding on y. Sentence expounding on x. We don't just spontaneously stop at the end of the first sentence because it makes no sense and is ignoring half the rest of the context.

You could also make the bad faith argument that everything in the card happens immediately after the power is manifested, even if the power is denied, specifically because the deny the witch section does not state what to negate other than "effects" and "effects" are not defined, even though they are also used in step 4.

Furthermore, effects being used in steps 3 and 4 illustrates that if you are correct, nothing can be denied because there is no reference to effects anywhere else, even on the cards, and everything by your logic takes place in step 2, which never mentions effects.

This is incorrect because it specifically ignores both the language in steps 3 and 4. Those steps clearly lay out that you deny a successfully manifested psychic power and that you then resolve the power after that fact. There is no inconsistency - you manifest, declare targets, generate wounds, etc. per the power's language after manifesting and then move to steps 3 and 4. The book very clearly tells us that you can only deny a psychic power that has been manifested and that the effects are negated. It doesn't matter that you manifested the power, selected the target unit, etc. because it tells us explicitly that the effects are negated (i.e. the mortal wounds, re-rolling failed to wound etc).

Let's follow it through.


1. Choose a psyker and a power.

Farseee and doom.

-this satisfies step one, no need to start reading the rules for doom.


2. Take Psychic test.

Roll 2d6, beat or equal the warp charge, power is manifested.

I roll an 8. The power is manifested.

-this satisfies step 2. You need to look at the casting cost but nothing else, no need to start reading the rules for doom.


3. Deny the witch.

My opponent rolls a 5 so fails to deny.

-this satisfies step 3, no need to start reading the rules for Doom.


4. Resolve the power

I passed the test, didn't die to perils and was not denied. I now resolve the power as described in it's rules.

- and now we need to start reading the rules for doom.



It's a simple process really. You go wrong if you start with the rules for doom, pick out "manifested" as some kind of defined trigger word, and cross reference with the rulebook looking for said trigger word. You're totally over thinking it at that point.

Incorrect - you were required to reference doom to determine its WC and thus are also aware of the targeting requirement in its language. The book doesn't tell us to never read the psychic power - it simply tells us to attempt o manifest, which once we accomplish we must now do anything required by the power we're attempting to cast.

The book tells us that if the power is manifested we do something - the power is manifested after successfully passing the psychic test. If you manifest the power then choose a target - you have manifested the power once you pass the psychic test. Not after your opponent has denied the witch - the power was manifested before that for the deny to even occur.

Doom says if manifested - that means once it is manifested (defined in the rulebook) then you choose a unit. The rules are not ambiguous or unclear - did you manifest the power? Yes - then choose a unit.

You are ignoring specific examples that prove your argument wrong.

Both executioner and smite have text that deals wounds immediately following "if manifested." By your logic, this is not an effect because it would take place in step 2. Therefore, smite and executioner in fact have no effects and cannot actually be denied.

The only expounding upon what effects are is the fragment "which will be described in the power itself." This thus means that the entirety of the card is the "effect" as pertaining to steps 3 and 4, which means absolutely 0 of the card is accomplished on step 2.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:


Executioner says if manifested - that means once it is manifested (defined in the rulebook) then you deal D3 mortal wounds to a unit. The rules are not ambiguous or unclear - did you manifest the power? Yes - then deal D3 wounds to a unit.

I edited your quote replacing it with the wording for executioner instead of doom. Surely you can see it now? If you have to choose your target for doom before deny then you have to deal D3 from executioner before deny.


Edit: to be clear: I am not saying that this is how it works! Mearly pointing out the absurdity your argument leads to. Just follow it through in the rulebook like you never played the game before.

Reading the current rules with such a lawyer-sharp wording eye doesn't work, sadly. They don't stand up to technical writing scrutiny, so a colloquial interpretation has to be used because they're colloquially written. You can absolutely attempt to deny Smite, no matter what the words exactly say.

It says the effect is negated - what are the effects of smite? D3 mortal wounds, if we negate that then those wounds don't occur. I don't see how that disproves anything - the unit suffers D3 mortal wounds then you attempt to deny and if successful you negate the effects of the power.

Ultimately the issue I have with this is it feels like someone finding an Easter egg. I so far have argued strictly from a RAW stand point - I play Eldar so this benefits me quite a bit honestly if it is 'cast, deny, then choose' however when we've seen tournament reports, battle reports, GW reports, etc. and not a single one has played it this way? An attempt to do otherwise feels like its looking for an advantage in a rule by picking it apart and finding the hidden language that rewards the 'best' reader. I will awlays take issue with this 'Easter Egg Hunt' type of rules reading because we know GW isn't going to design with that intent.

I've submitted it both GW and Frontline for FAQ at this point - I believe the RAW is clear and honestly will continue to play it as such because I prefer to play ambiguous scenarios to my opponent's benefit and not to my own because ultimately if the FAQ favors the 'cast, deny, target' interpretation then I'll come out on top. I'm going to bow out at this point because I've regurgitated my own argument several times. I don't think I'll see a compelling counter point because ultimately I believe anyone arguing for the 'cast, deny, target' is arguing in bad faith (i.e. is arguing to their own benefit as opposed to observing the situation). If someone else feels like they can add value to the conversation feel free.

So, here are my 2 cents, and I am going to use Smite as the exmaple, as I am sure we all know what it does.

Choose psyker - Bob.
Bob decides to attempt to manifest smite.
Bob succeeds at psychic test.
Smite is successfully manifested.
-> Follow the psychic power. Closest Visible enemy is chosen. a D3 is rolled, resulting in a 2.
Opponent then gets the chance to Deny.
If failed, apply the effects and finish resolution.


Deny the Witch does not stop the manifesting of a power. It resists and negates its effects.

While I can see why both sides, I am going to side on the 'targetting happens before deny' and the like.
If Deny the Witch negates the effects of a psychic power, then the effects have to have been applied first. Can't negate something that hasn't happened yet.

Man, if only GW took the side of Easy to read rules as opposed to Super fluffy writing.

Well, I sure hope that is not the case because it's going to make some games substantially longer.

So we should roll to see how many mortal wounds happen before DtW? What about saves against mortal wounds like fortune? Before or after the deny roll?

Edit: The above is sarcasm.

This isn't some clever interpretation, it's what happens if you just follow the steps in the book. We all automatically say "I'm casting Doom at your terminators" but that's not what the rules tell you to do. I would assume that in previous editions the rules were worded differently and that's why we're all still doing it.

Pretty sure it was explicitly stated in previous editions that targeting was part of announcing which power you wanted to cast, but I would have to reread 7th to make sure

Except 'Manifested' takes place during step 2 as clearly stated in the rules.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
I believe anyone arguing for the 'cast, deny, target' is arguing in bad faith (i.e. is arguing to their own benefit as opposed to observing the situation).

That's a crappy thing to assume, the psychic phase is a huge part of a lot of armies that go both ways.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
So we should roll to see how many mortal wounds happen before DtW? What about saves against mortal wounds like fortune? Before or after the deny roll?

If this is what GW wants to pick, it is pretty counter to their no using Reroll after the fact type of things. It makes a lot of psychic powers even worse since it would mean the person denying gets to know exactly how good or bad the power will be before they decide to roll.

Edit:

BlackSwanDelta wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
I believe anyone arguing for the 'cast, deny, target' is arguing in bad faith (i.e. is arguing to their own benefit as opposed to observing the situation).

That's a crappy thing to assume, the psychic phase is a huge part of a lot of armies that go both ways.

Honestly, I figured Farseer was arguing in bad faith for whatever reasons, since I only see this going 1 of 2 ways now that it has been brought to GW's attention - 1) people don't get to know what the power is targetting until after they deny (which is a mild buff at best and makes fluffy sense) or 2) we have to roll out the entire result of a psychic power before the opponent gets to decide if they want to deny, which is very tedious and game-lengthening.