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Alrighty I'm convinced. Would love to see the spears in action, you got a pic?

colevir wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

colevir wrote:
Needs some Windriders w/Scatter to help clear wraps. Maybe another detachment to help with slots and a Warlock Skyrunner with protect/jinx as i find that can ruin a unit. With the Saim-Hann trait letting them move and shot at full BS they can bring back those bad dreams from the past. Besides have to do something with all the scatterbikes shelved at the start of 8th.

Last I recall, SC bikes are better than Scatterbikes.

They are without the trait because they go to BS4 but with the Craftworld trait and the Scatterlaser point drop they stay at BS3 you gain a shot and 12" over SC for the same price.

But in this edition, AP modifiers are a must. Shuricannons clear almost the same amount of "chaff" in cover as Scatter lasers (even with BS4) and are WAAAAAYY more effective against the majority of other units in the game. The only real advantage Scatters have is the range, which can be largely irrelevant given that Battle Focus is actually good on Windriders.
Scatterbike 16" move + 36" range = 52" threat range
Shuricannon bike 22" move + 24" = 46" range
A whopping 6" difference, big deal. If anything tries to get close to the Windriders because they had to get closer, great, now they just made the Spears job easier.

 Puganaut wrote:
Alrighty I'm convinced. Would love to see the spears in action, you got a pic?

Don't be ridiculous. Of course he doesn't have that many Spears. He is probably just using Scatterbikes left over from 7th. And really that isn't too far fetched to just add plastic Elven spears to them and call it a day.
Afterall, the clock is ticking to when Spears get the inevitable FAQ nerf, so someone actually having this many Spears is just a bad idea.
But it shouldn't stop someone from trying out a fun spammy list while it's good, so long as they have appropriate proxies (in this case, Windriders)

-

I'd be quite interested to see how this would fare against a genestealer spam army.

The one to get first turn would pretty much win I guess... Genestealers are very able to get off a few first turn charges with the help of trygons or something like that. That small of an army would get multicharged and nom'd quite easily.

Morkphoiz wrote:
I'd be quite interested to see how this would fare against a genestealer spam army.

The one to get first turn would pretty much win I guess... Genestealers are very able to get off a few first turn charges with the help of trygons or something like that. That small of an army would get multicharged and nom'd quite easily.

Rangers are actually pretty good screens against most T1 charges. And since they infiltrate, you can still deploy your spears right up to the deployment zone limit and still put your rangers 18" in front.

 Galef wrote:


Afterall, the clock is ticking to when Spears get the inevitable FAQ nerf, so someone actually having this many Spears is just a bad idea.

This is seriously causing me issues with 40k of late. Glad I am not the only one this cynical. One main reason I am building my armies slower than ever is that I get options nerfed if I get them too soon (looking at my Shadow Specters...).

I love the FAQ to address issues, but too much tweaking is making it frustrating.

fresus wrote:

Morkphoiz wrote:
I'd be quite interested to see how this would fare against a genestealer spam army.

The one to get first turn would pretty much win I guess... Genestealers are very able to get off a few first turn charges with the help of trygons or something like that. That small of an army would get multicharged and nom'd quite easily.

Rangers are actually pretty good screens against most T1 charges. And since they infiltrate, you can still deploy your spears right up to the deployment zone limit and still put your rangers 18" in front.

I'm a little puzzled. How would one screen with 15 models? Especially when the usual nid army has enough psykers to just smite them out of the way while advancing?

Morkphoiz wrote:

fresus wrote:

Morkphoiz wrote:
I'd be quite interested to see how this would fare against a genestealer spam army.

The one to get first turn would pretty much win I guess... Genestealers are very able to get off a few first turn charges with the help of trygons or something like that. That small of an army would get multicharged and nom'd quite easily.

Rangers are actually pretty good screens against most T1 charges. And since they infiltrate, you can still deploy your spears right up to the deployment zone limit and still put your rangers 18" in front.

I'm a little puzzled. How would one screen with 15 models? Especially when the usual nid army has enough psykers to just smite them out of the way while advancing?

The screen puts distance between models because you can't deploy close to the main force. Even if you wipe them out, you will be out of range of charging.

 Puganaut wrote:
Yeah look I'm not one to do this but I am going to question your reporting and/or ownership of this list here.


1) I do feel like nids/guard could well hold out, or provide some contest. If you're in a meta that gladly and openly accepts nearly 50 spears and two autarchs, then I don't think it's a far stretch to imagine you've gone up against 400+ conscripts or something equally ludicrous.
2) Furthermore, what if you don't get the first turn and end up against a list that is similarly alpha-strikey? Again, assuming your meta is just as spammy as this list I can easily imagine about 70 death company dropping in and tearing up.
3) Pre-nerf, I think Lawrence's razor-spam list would still not lose to this list, and surely you would have vs'd that at some stage?

Obviously, it's a solid concept. Taking the strongest unit in the game and spamming USD $800 worth of it will win you some games. However I don't believe it's unbeatable.

If you could link us a batrep, it'd help out a lot Sorry if this comes across as confrontational, I'm just a bit of a skeptic.

I'm not sure how you think an army which has a core of 6 razorbacks would stand any chance against this army. It's not unreasonable to assume every razorback is in CC on turn 1 and will be in CC after turn 2 for the rest of the game. Even storm ravens fall easy prey to spears.

They are pretty much unbeatable without insanely bad luck.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I'm not sure how you think an army which has a core of 6 razorbacks would stand any chance against this army. It's not unreasonable to assume every razorback is in CC on turn 1 and will be in CC after turn 2 for the rest of the game. Even storm ravens fall easy prey to spears.

They are pretty much unbeatable without insanely bad luck.

The tac squads screen the razors...? Also, 1st turn to the razors would hurt this army quite a bit. I don't know if it's completely unbeatable, I'd definitely like to see it taken to a serious tournament before we write it off.


@Galef:
I'm a sucker for cohesive armies, and this seems to fit the bill! Not doubting credibility at this point, more just interested in the actual army. TBH elven spears would look pretty dope as a full army. Probably better in the showcase forum though, you're right.

 Puganaut wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I'm not sure how you think an army which has a core of 6 razorbacks would stand any chance against this army. It's not unreasonable to assume every razorback is in CC on turn 1 and will be in CC after turn 2 for the rest of the game. Even storm ravens fall easy prey to spears.

They are pretty much unbeatable without insanely bad luck.

The tac squads screen the razors...? Also, 1st turn to the razors would hurt this army quite a bit. I don't know if it's completely unbeatable, I'd definitely like to see it taken to a serious tournament before we write it off.


@Galef:
I'm a sucker for cohesive armies, and this seems to fit the bill! Not doubting credibility at this point, more just interested in the actual army. TBH elven spears would look pretty dope as a full army. Probably better in the showcase forum though, you're right.

tac squads really have no influence on this at all. Small units can not screen spears - they move too far and they have vicious assault so there is no place you could put tac marines to prevent the spears from charging razorbacks. Each 6 man averages a kill on a 5 man marine without a problem. Even guilliman will easily fall to them.

With that many drops, i would get +1 to go first. Magnus plus alpha legion zerker rush would eat this list. It can erase 6 squads of your Spears in the first turn. Not scared of this at all if I get first turn and I also play eldar so......

Is it wrong I clicked on this jus tto see if Xeno was in here?

Morkphoiz wrote:

fresus wrote:

Morkphoiz wrote:
I'd be quite interested to see how this would fare against a genestealer spam army.

The one to get first turn would pretty much win I guess... Genestealers are very able to get off a few first turn charges with the help of trygons or something like that. That small of an army would get multicharged and nom'd quite easily.

Rangers are actually pretty good screens against most T1 charges. And since they infiltrate, you can still deploy your spears right up to the deployment zone limit and still put your rangers 18" in front.

I'm a little puzzled. How would one screen with 15 models? Especially when the usual nid army has enough psykers to just smite them out of the way while advancing?

I would put screening units in two categories: the first one is comprised of models you need to kill to access the juicy target, like guardsmen tightly wrapping an IG gunline and preventing you from charging anything of value unless you kill them. So to be effective, you need many, very cheap models (so like IG).
Then you have screens that are just there to provide speed bumps, and more importantly, to prevent deep-strikes. If you deploy your screen 18" in front of your valuable unit, no one can drop closer than 28" from your unit (18" + 1" base + 9" deep strike). In practice, with non smooth board and limited screen you can't push the limit that far, but it's not that hard to deny ~24" around your guys. And that's where rangers excel, because they can deploy outside of your deployment zone before the opponent's first turn, so you don't even have to limit the spear's deployment to fully benefit from screening rangers. With a huge denial zone like that, you protect the spears against deep-striking plasma (pretty valuable for 2W models), and against deep-striking charges, because even with a move after a deep-strike, units will be out of range.
So yes, the rangers might all die during the opponent's first psychic or shooting phase, but by that time they already fulfilled their purpose. The opponent might keep his/hes deep-strikers in reserve to drop close to the spears on T2 when there's room close to them, but then it means the spears had a full turn already, so it's far from being as effective.

 quickfuze wrote:
With that many drops, i would get +1 to go first. Magnus plus alpha legion zerker rush would eat this list. It can erase 6 squads of your Spears in the first turn. Not scared of this at all if I get first turn and I also play eldar so......

The +1 to go first is the worst rule they've come up with. +1 to the roll only gives you a 58% chance to win. But then with seize the initiative, you're only left with a 49% chance to go first. Finishing deploying first actually makes you less likely to go first.
Also, keep in mind that you need to infiltrate your zerkers before he infiltrates his rangers, otherwise they'll be out of range T1. So to use them you need to win two roll offs (the one to infiltrate first, then the one to deploy first), so only about 25% chance. So not that reliable.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Puganaut wrote:
Yeah look I'm not one to do this but I am going to question your reporting and/or ownership of this list here.


1) I do feel like nids/guard could well hold out, or provide some contest. If you're in a meta that gladly and openly accepts nearly 50 spears and two autarchs, then I don't think it's a far stretch to imagine you've gone up against 400+ conscripts or something equally ludicrous.
2) Furthermore, what if you don't get the first turn and end up against a list that is similarly alpha-strikey? Again, assuming your meta is just as spammy as this list I can easily imagine about 70 death company dropping in and tearing up.
3) Pre-nerf, I think Lawrence's razor-spam list would still not lose to this list, and surely you would have vs'd that at some stage?

Obviously, it's a solid concept. Taking the strongest unit in the game and spamming USD $800 worth of it will win you some games. However I don't believe it's unbeatable.

If you could link us a batrep, it'd help out a lot Sorry if this comes across as confrontational, I'm just a bit of a skeptic.

I'm not sure how you think an army which has a core of 6 razorbacks would stand any chance against this army. It's not unreasonable to assume every razorback is in CC on turn 1 and will be in CC after turn 2 for the rest of the game. Even storm ravens fall easy prey to spears.

They are pretty much unbeatable without insanely bad luck.

I would argue that if all 6 Razorbacks end up in combat turn 1, the person playing them has messed up in a big way.

Spears are super fast, yes, but only 1 unit can advance and charge and only 1 unit can get quicken.

Now, it is entirely possible for them to get all 6 in combat with those 2 units alone, but it is not a guarantee, especially if they can screen to prevent deep strike via webway.

Not sure why anyone thinks that 6 Razorbacks will mow down 47 Shining Spears. Even if all 72 shots are in range, get to shoot first and don't move, hit on 3, wound on 3, armor save of 4+, that is 16 wounds, or 8 of 47 down on average. Even if they all have reroll hits that's about 22 wounds, leaving 36 spears to crush them on their turn. The 36 lances alone after shooting and assaulting will average 24 wounds for 48 damage, and that's not even counting the Shurikens which will do something. And lets be honest, not all are going to have reroll hits and they are likely to have to move to get into position to shoot.

Just played against an Imperial Knight Army.

IK went first, no suprise, and shot down 11 bikes.
Bikes destroyed one knight and damaged another in retaliation. (all through shooting)

IK destroyed another 7 bikes on second turn.
Bikes destroyed 2 more knights and damaged the last

IK destroyed 3 bikes on the 3rd turn.
Bikes destroyed the last knight.

I honestly have a hard time thinking of a list that could beat this one easily...

I like that he has taken the time to think this through, but I do wonder about some lists. An army made up of Axe/Shield and D-scythe wraithguard plus a few barebones wraithlords with spiritseers.

Iyanden
HQ
spiritseer, psytronome,seer of shifting vector (Protect/Jinx) 45
spiritseer (Enhance/drain) 45
spiritseer (Empower/Ennervate) 45

wraithlord 103
wraithlord 103
wraithlord 103
wraithlord 103
wraithlord 103


5 wraithscythe 225
5 wraithscythe 225
5 wraithscythe 225
5 wraithscythe 225
5 wraithaxe 225
5 wraithaxe 225


2000pts

not sitting down and doing the math but curious on your thoughts. Would use the axes and wraithlords to create alternating line of defence to stop wraithscythes being targeted by shooting in your first round

 bullyboy wrote:
I like that he has taken the time to think this through, but I do wonder about some lists. An army made up of Axe/Shield and D-scythe wraithguard plus a few barebones wraithlords with spiritseers.

Iyanden
HQ
spiritseer, psytronome,seer of shifting vector (Protect/Jinx) 45
spiritseer (Enhance/drain) 45
spiritseer (Empower/Ennervate) 45

wraithlord 103
wraithlord 103
wraithlord 103
wraithlord 103
wraithlord 103


5 wraithscythe 225
5 wraithscythe 225
5 wraithscythe 225
5 wraithscythe 225
5 wraithaxe 225
5 wraithaxe 225


2000pts

not sitting down and doing the math but curious on your thoughts. Would use the axes and wraithlords to create alternating line of defence to stop wraithscythes being targeted by shooting in your first round

Footslogging those units ensures that wraithguard won't survive long against anyone wih some decent shooting (so, 90% of the lists out there), while wraithblades and wraithlords can be tied up in combat easily by cheap chaff. I'm afraid that this list won't work.

Plus, that list will struggle against other lists, while the OP's list is actually solid against just about everything.

And when the nerf bat hits shining spears, your army will be scoring dust on a shelf. Thats why I'll be careful with spam-lists.

Teschio wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I like that he has taken the time to think this through, but I do wonder about some lists. An army made up of Axe/Shield and D-scythe wraithguard plus a few barebones wraithlords with spiritseers.

Iyanden
HQ
spiritseer, psytronome,seer of shifting vector (Protect/Jinx) 45
spiritseer (Enhance/drain) 45
spiritseer (Empower/Ennervate) 45

wraithlord 103
wraithlord 103
wraithlord 103
wraithlord 103
wraithlord 103


5 wraithscythe 225
5 wraithscythe 225
5 wraithscythe 225
5 wraithscythe 225
5 wraithaxe 225
5 wraithaxe 225


2000pts

not sitting down and doing the math but curious on your thoughts. Would use the axes and wraithlords to create alternating line of defence to stop wraithscythes being targeted by shooting in your first round

Footslogging those units ensures that wraithguard won't survive long against anyone wih some decent shooting (so, 90% of the lists out there), while wraithblades and wraithlords can be tied up in combat easily by cheap chaff. I'm afraid that this list won't work.

his shooting is all short ranged

 Spreelock wrote:
And when the nerf bat hits shining spears, your army will be scoring dust on a shelf. Thats why I'll be careful with spam-lists.

I'm not sure this will happen. Shining spears are nice, but on their own they are not powerful or used enough to warrant the nerf (like Serpents and Reapers are, for example). It's only in a list like this, with nohing but them, that they become awesome.

 bullyboy wrote:

his shooting is all short ranged

Exactly, but the enemy's shooting won't be. This is one of the reasons why it won't work. If you read my comment again, I was speaking against this list, not for it. His wraithguard will die before they arrive within range, and his melee units will eat chaff until the opponent is ready to take them down.

Teschio wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

his shooting is all short ranged

Exactly, but the enemy's shooting won't be. This is one of the reasons why it won't work. If you read my comment again, I was speaking against this list, not for it. His wraithguard will die before they arrive within range, and his melee units will eat chaff until the opponent is ready to take them down.

No, you're missing my point. Aside from the Rangers, the max shooting of the spears is 12" (with catapults) and 6" with laser lance. This is well within any weapon range of the wraiths. He will have to get through the wraithlords and axe/shield wraithguard (with Protect on one unit) before he gets to the scythes.
Don't know how good it is but it's not an easy proposition to get through.

 bullyboy wrote:

Teschio wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

his shooting is all short ranged

Exactly, but the enemy's shooting won't be. This is one of the reasons why it won't work. If you read my comment again, I was speaking against this list, not for it. His wraithguard will die before they arrive within range, and his melee units will eat chaff until the opponent is ready to take them down.

No, you're missing my point. Aside from the Rangers, the max shooting of the spears is 12" (with catapults) and 6" with laser lance. This is well within any weapon range of the wraiths. He will have to get through the wraithlords and axe/shield wraithguard (with Protect on one unit) before he gets to the scythes.
Don't know how good it is but it's not an easy proposition to get through.

They Fly and have good movement. They can just leapfrog the units he doesn't want to engage. And the range is 12", but the practical range is higher because of their movement.

He can leapfrog units to charge, for sure, but harder to set up shooting which is all the scythes are concerned about. If you want to assault them, they will do significant damage. At some point he still has to get close enough to cause damage (and I do agree that it throws out significant damage at short range) but I'm wondering what the damage output is to 5 wraithlords and 10 axe/shield guard.

One of his sqds may put 3 wounds on a wraithlord per shooting phase, and probably double in assault so that's 1 sqd per wraithlord per turn which is pretty impressive. Vs the axe guard (without Protect), it will only get through 2 guard per shooting and assault phase, leaving 3 to swing back. Overall, the wraithlords and axe guard should brunt most of the spears assault, leaving the 4 sqds of wraithscythes to attack next turn. No way to get through more than a couple of squads of spears at most, so the return fire in second turn should be pretty devastating. Definitely a nasty list.

i think this list need more magic.
Runes of battle +1 to hit +1 to wound and additional move is a big thing.
6 spears cant destroy a land raider with one charge, coz its only 3+ to hit and 5+ to wound, and no rerolls, its not what much really.

 bullyboy wrote:
He can leapfrog units to charge, for sure, but harder to set up shooting which is all the scythes are concerned about. If you want to assault them, they will do significant damage. At some point he still has to get close enough to cause damage (and I do agree that it throws out significant damage at short range) but I'm wondering what the damage output is to 5 wraithlords and 10 axe/shield guard.

One of his sqds may put 3 wounds on a wraithlord per shooting phase, and probably double in assault so that's 1 sqd per wraithlord per turn which is pretty impressive. Vs the axe guard (without Protect), it will only get through 2 guard per shooting and assault phase, leaving 3 to swing back. Overall, the wraithlords and axe guard should brunt most of the spears assault, leaving the 4 sqds of wraithscythes to attack next turn. No way to get through more than a couple of squads of spears at most, so the return fire in second turn should be pretty devastating. Definitely a nasty list.

I think your math may be a little bit off. Even if you can effectively screen all your wraithguards and shoot at the bikes the turn after they assault you, 4 full squads of them will kill 8 bikes. Not really devastating, when you have 48. But first, let's see what damage those 48 bikes can do when they assault you (I hope you can agree that there is absolutely no chance that they won't be able to assault you whenever and wherever they want, with their far superior movement). As it turns out, they will deal an average of 106 wounds to wraithlords (ignoring the autarch rerolls and the autarch themselves, just the basic bikes), or 68 wounds to wraithblades with forceshields. Which means, those 48 bikes can kill 5 wraithlords AND 10 wraithblades in a single turn. With some damage to spare too. Next, you can retaliate and kill those 8 bikes. This leaves you with 20 wraithguards (and NOTHING ELSE), and your opponent with 40 bikes. Just by shooting, without having to eat overwatch, 40 bikes can do 49 wounds to wraithguards, which means you are left with 4 models, at which point I can even eat some overwatch and remove you from the table. In 2 turns those bikes would table you (make it 3, the first turn would be used just to position themselves better to engage you on their terms on turn 2). You, on the other hand would barely kill 1/6th of his army... oh, and I didn't even considered the autarchs (and their rerolls) in the calculations...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Algelion wrote:
i think this list need more magic.
Runes of battle +1 to hit +1 to wound and additional move is a big thing.
6 spears cant destroy a land raider with one charge, coz its only 3+ to hit and 5+ to wound, and no rerolls, its not what much really.

6 spears can't destroy a LR, I agree. But a land raider costs as much as 2 squads of 6 bikes. And those 12 bikes will do an average of 21.3 wounds to a LR, without any pshychic support or even autarch rerolls. Do you still think you need those +1s to hit and wound? Comparing units with different costs makes little sense, to be honest. 6 spears can't destroy a titan, but the number of spears equivalent in cost to a titan can, with a lot of damage to spare too (61 wounds on average to a warhound scout titan, and he has 35...)

6 spears can't destroy a LR, I agree. But a land raider costs as much as 2 squads of 6 bikes. And those 12 bikes will do an average of 21.3 wounds to a LR, without any pshychic support or even autarch rerolls. Do you still think you need those +1s to hit and wound? Comparing units with different costs makes little sense, to be honest. 6 spears can't destroy a titan, but the number of spears equivalent in cost to a titan can, with a lot of damage to spare too (61 wounds on average to a warhound scout titan, and he has 35...)

Correct me if im wrong:
10 Shinihg spears + 2 Exarch = 20 attack str 6 + 6 attack str 8(reroll to wound)
20 attack on 3+ its 13 hits wound on 5+ its 4 wound, 6+ armor save / none. And its 8 wound suffered.
Exarch 6 attack 3+, 4 hit, 3 wound(including reroll), and one 6+ suсcess = 4 wounds
So the total is 12.

Did i miss something?
My calculation is blunt really but the result is far from 21.3

 Algelion wrote:

6 spears can't destroy a LR, I agree. But a land raider costs as much as 2 squads of 6 bikes. And those 12 bikes will do an average of 21.3 wounds to a LR, without any pshychic support or even autarch rerolls. Do you still think you need those +1s to hit and wound? Comparing units with different costs makes little sense, to be honest. 6 spears can't destroy a titan, but the number of spears equivalent in cost to a titan can, with a lot of damage to spare too (61 wounds on average to a warhound scout titan, and he has 35...)

Correct me if im wrong:
10 Shinihg spears + 2 Exarch = 20 attack str 6 + 6 attack str 8(reroll to wound)
20 attack on 3+ its 13 hits wound on 5+ its 4 wound, 6+ armor save / none. And its 8 wound suffered.
Exarch 6 attack 3+, 4 hit, 3 wound(including reroll), and one 6+ suсcess = 4 wounds
So the total is 12.

Did i miss something?
My calculation is blunt really but the result is far from 21.3

You only calculated the attacks from melee. What makes Spears so good is the 1-2 punch of their shooting THEN melee. Do the calculations including their shuricats and lance shot.

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