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Cool to hear that you've had some success with the Lord of Change. What spells did you kit him out with?

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I feel like it's not a Daemon in AoS so they can shoe-horn their weird eight million factions. It, clearly, should be a Daemon. Who knows what GW will do in the end, though.

It's a corrupted beast, not a daemon (nor a daemon beast, which are basically daemons but with bestial behaviors). Unlike daemons, it presumably has a physical body, can meet and mate with other mutalith beasts to produce babies, doesn't feed off of emotions and instead feeds off of either plants or meat (likely meat), and it doesn't get banished to the warp when killed but instead just gets killed. And can bleed. And needs to breathe. Etc.

Saying a mutalith is a daemon would be the same as saying Tzaangors and Chaos Spawns are demons. Just because something is heavily mutated and corrupted by the warp doesn't make it a daemon. The only exception where something can be mutated from a non-daemon into a daemon are daemon princes who are explicitly transformed into daemons by the gods (Possessed and Daemon Engines aren't daemons, but instead are humans and engines POSSESSED by daemons). (I guess we can menition Plaguebearers too, but Plaguebeaers are actually the person's soul being mutated into a daemon, not their physical body, if I recall correctly)

I fully acknowledge that a LoC is a potential durable unit, but it doesn't do anything.

I'm absolutely going to test them, but if they can only kill a maximum of 11 models a turn, or potentially one stronger unit if they're lucky, I don't see what their purpose is.

Are they casting powers? The Tzeentch powers are pretty bad, realistically speaking. There's two buffs, one bad character only smite, one reroll power for one dice, and another spell that's typically just a smite.

I'm not being a miserable about it, I own the models, but we need to judge them honestly that they simply don't /do/ anything.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I feel like it's not a Daemon in AoS so they can shoe-horn their weird eight million factions. It, clearly, should be a Daemon. Who knows what GW will do in the end, though.

It's a corrupted beast, not a daemon (nor a daemon beast, which are basically daemons but with bestial behaviors). Unlike daemons, it presumably has a physical body, can meet and mate with other mutalith beasts to produce babies, doesn't feed off of emotions and instead feeds off of either plants or meat (likely meat), and it doesn't get banished to the warp when killed but instead just gets killed. And can bleed. And needs to breathe. Etc.

Saying a mutalith is a daemon would be the same as saying Tzaangors and Chaos Spawns are demons. Just because something is heavily mutated and corrupted by the warp doesn't make it a daemon. The only exception where something can be mutated from a non-daemon into a daemon are daemon princes who are explicitly transformed into daemons by the gods (Possessed and Daemon Engines aren't daemons, but instead are humans and engines POSSESSED by daemons). (I guess we can menition Plaguebearers too, but Plaguebeaers are actually the person's soul being mutated into a daemon, not their physical body, if I recall correctly)

Hate to break it to you, bud, Possessed, Daemon Engines and Obliterators are Daemons as far as 40k is concerned.

I understand it's just different justification of lore, but even your own example was incorrect in that GW just slaps labels on them whether we agree or not.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I fully acknowledge that a LoC is a potential durable unit, but it doesn't do anything.


Hate to break it to you, bud, Possessed, Daemon Engines and Obliterators are Daemons as far as 40k is concerned.

I understand it's just different justification of lore, but even your own example was incorrect in that GW just slaps labels on them whether we agree or not.

That's why I brought them up. They're counted as daemons in gameplay because they're possessed by daemons.

The mutalith beast is NOT possessed by a daemon. I hate to break it to you bud, but GW doesn't classify them as daemons for a reason, and they are the reasons I stated.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Mutalith-Vortex-Beast

"A Mutalith Vortex Beast is an utter abomination of nature. It is a terrifying fusion of monster and magic, a creature mutated beyond all reason by the power of Chaos."

At most, a mutalith beast is a MUTANT mutated by chaos and magic (just like Tzaangors and Chaos Spawn), not a daemon.

Okay. Would it bother you less if the original comment was written as with "In my opinion" instead of being prefaced with "I feel"?

I'm not refuting you that it's a beast mutated into whatever it is, I just -feel- like it should be something else, because of what it is.

I'm not of the opinion that "changed by the warp" and "born of the warp" are different enough to warrant a distinction for the purpose of determining which special boy is warpy enough.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Cool to hear that you've had some success with the Lord of Change. What spells did you kit him out with?

I ended up using it as a disruption unit and anchor more than for raw offensive power. Treason of Tzeentch, Flickering Flames, and Infernal Gateway for powers, I took the sword as a test.

Gateway is CRAZY GOOD, and versus a meta-style aura gunline can cause massive casualties if they're grouped up in cover. One cast into a mess of reapers and support killed ~3 characters (farseer, spiritseer, and one other) along with a decent number of reapers. it is an indirect way to snipe fragile buff characters if your opponent is not very careful, and Treason with the casting buff is reliable enough to pose a real risk as well.

overall I think he's worth running with robe/gate/treason and getting up close and personal to can-open vehicles and majorly disrupt gunlines and castling.

Gateway seems like it'll work once and then your opponent will remember to position their units more carefully and you'll never hit more than one unit ever again. You can ask the Grey Knight community about their experiences with Vortex, it's basically the same spell.

Is it true that you hit your own allies with Gateway? I've heard conflicting reports and hope it isn't true, that would make the spell reaaaally suck for a model that wants to be in melee like the LoC.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Okay. Would it bother you less if the original comment was written as with "In my opinion" instead of being prefaced with "I feel"?

I'm not refuting you that it's a beast mutated into whatever it is, I just -feel- like it should be something else, because of what it is.

I'm not of the opinion that "changed by the warp" and "born of the warp" are different enough to warrant a distinction for the purpose of determining which special boy is warpy enough.

Nah, changing your original post won't "bother me less" because I wasn't bothered by your original post. My original post had no bother in it and was me sincerely giving you an honest answer why GW didn't consider them to be demons. My bother instead comes from your post after my original post where you clearly didn't appreciate my sincere answer and thought to provoke me with your condescending "I hate to break it to you, bud".

Anyways, daemons aren't daemons JUST because they're born of the warp. They're also daemons because they have no physical bodies (which is why possessed are able to be possessed by them in the first place. The "daemon" keyword for the model sn't referring to the physical body that is being possessed, but to the daemon inside the physical body possessing it. Ditto for the avatar of Khaine, by the way).

This affects several aspects of them, one of the most important being that mutaliths are fully capable of living outside the warp as long as they get enough food and drink but daemons meanwhile will eventually fade away back to the warp if there aren't souls and emotions to sustain them or if they aren't possessing someone.

....well, that and the whole fact that daemons feed on souls and emotions in the first place while mutaliths don't.

Also, the fact that they're nonphysical beings that feed on souls and emotions is a large part of what makes them vulnerable to anti-daemon rituals, which mutaliths wouldn't be vulnerable to because mutaliths aren't made out of emotional energy.

Again, saying a Mutalith is a daemon would be the equivalent of saying Tzaangors and Chaos Spawns are daemons (if anything, chaos spawns are even more mutated by chaos than Mutaliths are). Mutaliths being a beast warped by chaos but not being daemons is consistent with the lore of all those other guys mutated by chaos but not being daemons.

Of course, this is going by their Age of Sigmar fluff and rules (and Warhammer Fantasy, where they weren't daemons there, either). We still haven't seen the WH40k ones. But mutalith beasts have been a part of the WARRIORS OF CHAOS faction, not Daemons, ever since they existed, so it'd be a deviation from their WHFantasy fluff to make them daemons in 40k. And GW apparently has decided not to deviate from that fluff.

Furies are and have been in the fast attack slot, but actually did get cheaper. They’re 10 ppm now. Rules unchanged. Could do worse, but dunno how worthwhile they are, exactly.

We'll disagree on the mutual levels of sincerety we felt from one another's replies, but I'm sure we'll agree for the sake of the thread that our squabble can cease and we'll return to discussion of Codex Daemons.

That being said, I'm glad you had luck with the LoC, Windstorm. I just can't help but have my doubts.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Gateway seems like it'll work once and then your opponent will remember to position their units more carefully and you'll never hit more than one unit ever again. You can ask the Grey Knight community about their experiences with Vortex, it's basically the same spell.

Is it true that you hit your own allies with Gateway? I've heard conflicting reports and hope it isn't true, that would make the spell reaaaally suck for a model that wants to be in melee like the LoC.

you do, but only 3" range from the closest unit to you, so as long as you don't cast it while you're already stuck in melee, but before you engage, you can do just fine. I got 3 solid casts in over a four-turn game, because the LoC has enough movement to reposition for maximum effect, and as said before if you use him to kill vehicles he does that pretty reliably with the sword and has to worry less about being tied up. Worst case if you spot a golden opportunity for gateway you can fallback and cast it. The constant threat of that has a pretty chilling effect on enemy movement and spacing.

I think his value isn't in the direct damage he causes, but the psychological effects/consequences of Gate/Treason and the fact that the threat is a pain in the to remove

Flickering flames is also a damn good spell and has multiple viable uses.

The weakness of gateway is not opponent counter positioning. Buffing characters typically have a 6" bubble. Spreading out so that no 2 units are within 3" of each other is a terrible position. It leaves vulnerable support units open to be charged or shot by fast moving units and leaves every unit in the army a bit isolated. There is enormous strength from clustering units in 8th and denying an opponent that option is powerful.

The weaknesses of gateway is it's short range. A 6" diameter is huge but between a 12" range and having to target the closest enemy the power is severely gimped unless it's on a very fast platform. Fortunately most of the Platforms like the LoC are very fast.

Last but not least the +2 to cast is a big deal on the LOC. Reducing the 12+ to a 10+ means whenever 1 of the 2 dice is a 6 there is a 50% chance of getting a 10 by reroll the lower die which is a good use of the new power that allows 1 reroll a turn.

Cinderspirit wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Facebook.
Peraphrasing:
Why are the herald mount options missing
No they are not. They are just under a different name.

Now... that's just weird. Why would they say that. Slaanesh Herald is the ONLY Herald without a name change in the codex. Did they change the name, have the 2 pages of missing models but misprinted it?

Well, the question was about all heralds, and for Tzeentch and Khorne variants the answer is true. Guess they just took the easy way out, since the question wasn't "Why are the herald of Slaanesh mount options missing?".

It was like that. I didn't write that. My bad :p

 WindstormSCR wrote:
you do, but only 3" range from the closest unit to you...

Did you play this correctly? The 3" bubble of damage is based on the nearest model within 12" of the tzeentch caster, not nearest unit.

Mchaagen wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:
you do, but only 3" range from the closest unit to you...

Did you play this correctly? The 3" bubble of damage is based on the nearest model within 12" of the tzeentch caster, not nearest unit.

I think if it is 3 inch from the nearest model, the power becomes almost useless. You will never be able to hit more than 1 unit and certainly not characters.
Can anyone confirm that it is the closest model?

 Astmeister wrote:
I think if it is 3 inch from the nearest model, the power becomes almost useless. You will never be able to hit more than 1 unit and certainly not characters.
Can anyone confirm that it is the closest model?

Here you go (power discussed at 33:14);
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scVUa-88Ebk

It's also identical to the Grey Knights vortex power, which is why most were saying it's pretty bad. There might be a few situational uses for it, but they will be rare.

So, with Flesh Hounds costing 15 ppm...How the hell is GW going to continue justifying the price of their very own Flesh Hound models? They cost nearly double what other models of that cost run for. I'm glad i'm proxying mine with Warhounds.

 vaklor4 wrote:
So, with Flesh Hounds costing 15 ppm...How the hell is GW going to continue justifying the price of their very own Flesh Hound models? They cost nearly double what other models of that cost run for. I'm glad i'm proxying mine with Warhounds.

i go with these guys, actually prefer them to GW models and cheaper
https://puppetswar.eu/product.php?id_product=260

 Latro_ wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
So, with Flesh Hounds costing 15 ppm...How the hell is GW going to continue justifying the price of their very own Flesh Hound models? They cost nearly double what other models of that cost run for. I'm glad i'm proxying mine with Warhounds.

i go with these guys, actually prefer them to GW models and cheaper
https://puppetswar.eu/product.php?id_product=260

I sometimes play at an official GW store, so I can't go too far with my proxying

Just use second hand Chaos Hounds, you get them for cheap and best way to do it as you don't now if they are back on the shelf again in 6 months

 vaklor4 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
So, with Flesh Hounds costing 15 ppm...How the hell is GW going to continue justifying the price of their very own Flesh Hound models? They cost nearly double what other models of that cost run for. I'm glad i'm proxying mine with Warhounds.

i go with these guys, actually prefer them to GW models and cheaper
https://puppetswar.eu/product.php?id_product=260

I sometimes play at an official GW store, so I can't go too far with my proxying

I use these guys.



They come 6 in a box for 20$. Then I bought the proper base size to rebase them. They are slightly more expensive than the warhounds of chaos, but they meld better with bloodletters.

They are from the board game expansion for a game called The Others: 7 Sins. It is the Wrath expansion. The guy they call a controller also works well for chaos spawns.

 Astmeister wrote:

Mchaagen wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:
you do, but only 3" range from the closest unit to you...

Did you play this correctly? The 3" bubble of damage is based on the nearest model within 12" of the tzeentch caster, not nearest unit.

I think if it is 3 inch from the nearest model, the power becomes almost useless. You will never be able to hit more than 1 unit and certainly not characters.
Can anyone confirm that it is the closest model?

Yeah, I was initially excited, sounded like a way to force enemy dispersal, but this unreliable and inelegant power is probably not going to see as much actual use as the Stratagems that combine three Vindicators or Zoanthrope broods to drop a saucer of mortal wounds. It’s not going to have the same psychological effect as, say, HA psykers being capable of using a familiar to drop a Death Hex on a deathstar.

...huh. HA Daemon Princes, and Daemonic mounted Sorcerers, can benefit from psychic-relates Stratagems affecting DAEMON units. That’s a thought.

...hmm. Are Apocalypse battles still literally ‘use anything you want’? There’s DAEMON units outside of CHAOS that could cause a bit of a scene...

 kodos wrote:
Just use second hand Chaos Hounds, you get them for cheap and best way to do it as you don't now if they are back on the shelf again in 6 months

Yup, agreed. They are fugly as hell, but their cost justifies it, IMO. I had 30 of those Barghest fiends, but sold them because I play in GW stores exclusively.

I keep saying "soon" those AoS-hero-style Flesh Hounds will arrive. *rocks back and forth* Soon... soon...

They seem like legit, reliable psychic defense now.

quick one, do we know if blood crushers changed in pts?

 Latro_ wrote:
quick one, do we know if blood crushers changed in pts?

I think someone said they are the same points.

 Latro_ wrote:
quick one, do we know if blood crushers changed in pts?

Nothing's changed, they're still garbo.

bah think i'll just snap the riders off and use em as spawn

RE Flesh Hound models: why not Fenrisian Wolves? Paint ‘em red, sure they’ll look the part. A GS collar should be a fairly simple project if you want them more distinct.

Too expensive for what you get and what how much you would need

Fantasy hounds are cheap enough