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Pink Horror wrote:
We have proof from a designer now that the Forgeworld indices were a rush job, right? That's reason enough to ban them from a tournament.

So was pretty much everything in the index books, and Chapter Approved already hit broad swathes of the FW stuff with rather heavy nerfs. Aside from Malefic Lords and Earthshaker carriages, it's not like FW was terribly successful in competitive events anyway in terms of power gaming lists, it's going to be even less so now.

Seems a reasonable thing to ban, just for games to run smoothly. Nothing makes a tournament quite as much of a headache is adjudicating what things do when they're unfamiliar to half or more of the people participating (including the TOs).

This isn't true for things like Sisters or Knights, since they're right there in the Index.

Voss wrote:
Seems a reasonable thing to ban, just for games to run smoothly. Nothing makes a tournament quite as much of a headache is adjudicating what things do when they're unfamiliar to half or more of the people participating (including the TOs).

The TO who isn't familiar with FW units shouldn't be a TO. We have books for reference, and if that's not enough then the person should not be organizing tournaments.

Disallowing FW is just an alternate format of 40k, like Highlander or any other restriction a TO could put on list building. Only one detachment? No flyers? Minimum 6 troops? It's their choice, and if it's not a popular choice, attendance will suffer as a result.

Considering you can get FW rules digitally now without having to pay the hilarious amount of duty on books, I don't really see how accessibility is an issue anymore. This isn't the good ol days where the Contemptor Mortis had three different rules come out in four or five months (Aeronautica, Apocalypse 2, WMoAA2, all only available from FW proper.

Voss wrote:
This isn't true for things like Sisters or Knights, since they're right there in the Index.

FW rules are also right there in the index. In fact, since all of the FW rules are in the three index books instead of the index books plus codices it's less of a burden to keep track of them. If you want to simplify the rules then you should ban codices and force everyone to use the index rules.

Voss wrote:
Seems a reasonable thing to ban, just for games to run smoothly. Nothing makes a tournament quite as much of a headache is adjudicating what things do when they're unfamiliar to half or more of the people participating (including the TOs).

This isn't true for things like Sisters or Knights, since they're right there in the Index.

And every player has every index and codex right...

This same argument is 100% valid for banning every GW codex. I have only IG codex. Therefore apart from orks and IG all armies are basically full of unfamiliar stuff for me. BAN GW CODEXES! Too much unfamiliar stuff!

At least FW rules are cheaper to collect them all than GW ones...

 Peregrine wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Again all gw kits have all the parts you need to make said model. They may lack a specific weapon option (though they are writing some of that out of the game). But there exists no kit which requires another purchase to make a unit. This is not true for FW where I might need to buy 3 separate kits just to have arms for my model (for instance if I buy an ork mega dread, I need to buy 2 arms for it to make the model usable in any way)

Only if you want to lose every game you play. Playing IG? Better buy some conversion parts to give your veterans/command squads/SWS/etc full loads of plasma/melta, if you build them with just the contents of the kit you have a trash unit that should never appear in anything but a joke list. For all practical purposes you are required to buy multiple kits to assemble a single unit, just like FW models. And at least the FW kits make it clear that you're buying the body and arms separately, while most of GW's plastic kits contain no notification at all that you're going to have to buy extra conversion parts to do anything useful with it

You still fail to acknowledge the difference between needing multiple kits to make a model and multiple kits to powergame. There are plenty of perfectly viable builds I can make in IG that require no extra kits. Especially if I am buying multiple infantry boxes just for the bodies. FW does not always make it super clear that you need to buy deprecate kits (the mechanic dress entry just says ork mechanic dread, but the first picture has it with translucent arms, and then the description says it works with any of the arm kits. That could mean those are upgrade parts and thus optional. Some other kits specify body in the title. I will concede that codex entries exist that may require multiple kits, but no kits exist that cannot be used without buying additional kits. More often kits have more stuff than you will ever use. Which if you are then smart makes GW much cheaper than FW because you can buy bits to make more models. Again not saying any of this leads to banning. Just that you would be better served accepting that there is a difference in the product line, and if bans are a thing in your area working on slow acceptance through restricted use, rather than screaming from the roof tops that no difference exists and thus no ban should exist. It simply put isn't a compelling argument, and that many FW players get super huffy about people having fear of the unknown is a major reason many people don't like it.

Breng77 wrote:
You still fail to acknowledge the difference between needing multiple kits to make a model and multiple kits to powergame.

It's not just powergaming, it's playing the game at even a minimal level of competence. Many units are utter trash when built straight out of the box, and require additional parts to be viable.

There are plenty of perfectly viable builds I can make in IG that require no extra kits.

There really aren't. The basic Cadian box has no melta or plasma or heavy weapons of any kind. Your basic troops will require buying additional boxes to include their weapon upgrades.

FW does not always make it super clear that you need to buy deprecate kits (the mechanic dress entry just says ork mechanic dread, but the first picture has it with translucent arms, and then the description says it works with any of the arm kits.

You mean this kit, where the description clearly says "body" in the title, the grayed-out arms tell you that these are parts that are not included, and the text description says that you have to buy the arms separately? If you look at that product page and can't figure out that the arms are a separate purchase that's your problem.

I will concede that codex entries exist that may require multiple kits, but no kits exist that cannot be used without buying additional kits.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-AU/Space-Marine-Plasma-Guns

Plus, many kits only pass your test on a technicality. You can assemble a rules-legal unit, if you don't care about ever winning games, but it would be stupid to ever do it that way. In practical terms an IG infantry squad requires a heavy weapon team and melta/plasma conversion parts to be used in a real game.

More often kits have more stuff than you will ever use.

This is a double-edged sword. Including more stuff than you'll ever use means that you're paying for extra stuff. Buying weapons/arms/etc separately allows you to buy only the models that you want, without having to pay extra for options you aren't going to use.

 Cream Tea wrote:
Disallowing FW is just an alternate format of 40k, like Highlander or any other restriction a TO could put on list building. Only one detachment? No flyers? Minimum 6 troops? It's their choice, and if it's not a popular choice, attendance will suffer as a result.

Dude, I see you're a Swede. This is primarily a US problem, you'd have to be here to see what we're talking about. It's just something old and stupid that we Yanks can't seem to get out from under.

It's a stupid stigma on Forge World. For a long time, people would believe absurd things. I've had shop owners look me in the face and tell me that Forge World isn't official. We've had guys get asked to leave the FLGS/GW store because they play DKoK or Elysian drop troops. As I said earlier, I was told I couldn't participate in a tournament because I had Forge World models- and by that, I mean cosmetic upgrades in the form of Alpha Legion heads, jump packs, and torsos and used Outriders as my bikers (literally every unit I had was in the Chaos Codex, but the intent was for it to look like Heresy-Era Alpha Legion). FFS, I have Sicaran tanks that TO's have told me is 'overpowered', even if some neckbeard guard player blew it up in turn 1.

It's beyond nonsense. It's a holdover from the old days where older players accepted this as law and gospel, and no one can seem to shake it off. As we call it in my area, the 'Paw-paw gamer mentality'.

We get all the excuses:

"Not everyone has access to the information" is a BS excuse, because it's not my problem if someone MUST have every Codex and can't afford books from Forge World.

"Not everyone can afford them" is just as stupid, welcome to 40k- Pay 2 Win before online gaming even existed. Want good units? Spend money, use your cash wisely. That's how it works.

"The TO's aren't familiar with them" isn't my problem, he can read my book if he likes if he needs to. If he can't run a tournament unless he has the unit's stat line memorized, he's unfit to be a TO.

"They are too powerful" sounds like the thing you hear from WAAC Wally who puts down full tank or Knight armies, once they see a Relic Sicaran Omega Tank Destroyer.

It's all basically a bunch of 'house rules' that some places invoked back in the 90's and some of the old neckbeards still think this should be 'the rule'. They complain, because let's face it- some of the old neckbeards complain about literally everything. We have a few that I'm convinced are just showing up to the store to cross their arms and talk about how much better X edition was, and the most gaming I've seen from them is when they open up a smelly box of banged-up metal models and talk about how much better the one-piece beakie models were.

And as I understand it, stores that sell GW products should NOT be banning Forge World models from play on their tables. Tournaments are a different story, but I can honestly tell you that TO's who have 'no Forge World' rules usually have small, sad little tournaments with the same handful of people showing up.

Yes, there seems to be some incongruence between the stated reasons to ban Forge World, and the actual reasons.

The stated reasons are easily debunked or proven to be inconsistently applied (at best) while the actual reasons remain mysterious.

I myself believe it is because there are people with deep emotional or spiritual (I guess?) misgivings about Forge World, and who don't actually have a reason in the objective sense but rather simply wish to ban FW to make themselves feel more comfortable and less emotionally/spiritually beset.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes, there seems to be some incongruence between the stated reasons to ban Forge World, and the actual reasons.

The stated reasons are easily debunked or proven to be inconsistently applied (at best) while the actual reasons remain mysterious.

I myself believe it is because there are people with deep emotional or spiritual (I guess?) misgivings about Forge World, and who don't actually have a reason in the objective sense but rather simply wish to ban FW to make themselves feel more comfortable and less emotionally/spiritually beset.

What is there to debunk about a rules format? No one is arguing that banning forge world is necessary. Just that there are advantages to banning it because it reduces the number titans/super heavies/OP units in the game - that makes it a valid ban if that is what the TO is after.

One better: My current league is no FW AND no special characters.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes, there seems to be some incongruence between the stated reasons to ban Forge World, and the actual reasons.

The stated reasons are easily debunked or proven to be inconsistently applied (at best) while the actual reasons remain mysterious.

I myself believe it is because there are people with deep emotional or spiritual (I guess?) misgivings about Forge World, and who don't actually have a reason in the objective sense but rather simply wish to ban FW to make themselves feel more comfortable and less emotionally/spiritually beset.

What is there to debunk about a rules format? No one is arguing that banning forge world is necessary. Just that there are advantages to banning it because it reduces the number titans/super heavies/OP units in the game - that makes it a valid ban if that is what the TO is after.

It's not debunking the format, it's debunking the rationality behind it.

It's totally fine to have an emotionally motivated format, but don't try to tout it as "logical" or "reasonable" or even "sane" necessarily.

And yes, it does reduce the number of Titans/Superheavies/OP units... sort of. It depends what game you're playing but if it's 2000 points, then no, all you've accomplished is to alienate a large segment of players. The FW Titans/Superheavies/OP stuff are generally either useless at 2000 points, outperformed by GW equivalents at 2000 points, or are only good because they're misunderstood / not read / people don't know how to play against them yet and learning is hard.

 Xenomancers wrote:
What is there to debunk about a rules format? No one is arguing that banning forge world is necessary. Just that there are advantages to banning it because it reduces the number titans/super heavies/OP units in the game - that makes it a valid ban if that is what the TO is after.

So, sounds like to me the TO should set a limit on titans and superheavies.

Martel732 wrote:
One better: My current league is no FW AND no special characters.

Show your TO a calendar. It's not 1997 any more.

Both of these quoted instances sound like the TO is playing Tau or Dark Eldar, maybe GSC. A lot of those players incessantly whine about the same things, namely the ones that don't know how to use their army and need to stack the deck to win.

Nope, he's got a chaos army and an eldar army. They basically were getting rid of Rick and Morty and Bobby G and nailed Lemartes in the process.

Martel732 wrote:
Nope, he's got a chaos army and an eldar army. They basically were getting rid of Rick and Morty and Bobby G and nailed Lemartes in the process.

Interesting. Is there any specific reason they have a problem with Rick and Morty and Bobby G? Presumably, it's a competitive league, if there's no narrative driving the games and there is prize support at the end. If it is narrative, then perhaps the players who want to bring the Dynamic Duo and Rerolls Geewhillickers to a campaign where the narrative doesn't support it are the problem.

It's actually narrative. It's basically a moon system we battle over and it's too far out of the way for special characters to be there. That's the fluff. I just think its funny how every BA list on here is driven by special characters.

Martel732 wrote:
Nope, he's got a chaos army and an eldar army. They basically were getting rid of Rick and Morty and Bobby G and nailed Lemartes in the process.

Oh. He doesn't know how to use his armies.

People who flip out about Bobby G generally don't. Sounds like you might want to avoid the tournament. In my experience, ones ran like that are being stacked for his pals.

It's not a tournament. It's a league. Of course I wouldn't play in that tournament.

Martel732 wrote:
It's actually narrative. It's basically a moon system we battle over and it's too far out of the way for special characters to be there. That's the fluff. I just think its funny how every BA list on here is driven by special characters.

Ohh, that makes sense for the No Special Characters ban (though that kind of puts the kabosh on some fluffy lists, I.E. "Splaterina Kayfax is my Inquisitor Lord, using the Katerina Greyfax rules since there are no rules for generic Hereticus inquisitor lords." So I still don't like it, but I suppose it follows.)

The no FW ban doesn't make sense though, as a out-of-the-way moon system is exactly the place that a lot of FW models would make sense (e.g. Elysian Drop Troops would have a field day in a close-together system of planets, and old, rickety Malcador tanks could easily be found abandoned in such a place!).

@peregrine- no you can field many kits (most) with a level of competive ness without requiring further purchase, it is only for top end min maxing that you require multiple kits. You mention cadian infantry, right now their most common load out is lasguns to act as chaff, no one is putting in heavy/special weapons in there squads. They are putting heavy weapons (mortars mostly) in separate units which can be purchased in their own kit. Most other competitive units in AM don't need extra purchases (taurox, psykers, commanders, mantacore, wyvern, basilisk, leman Russ, sentinels, psykers) Really just scions appear to need added gear if you want to maximize their efficiency.

As for the ork kit no I meant this one https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Ork-Mega-Dread and yes the description tells you the arms are separate but I need to read the description to know that. I don't need to do that for say a deff dread.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's actually narrative. It's basically a moon system we battle over and it's too far out of the way for special characters to be there. That's the fluff. I just think its funny how every BA list on here is driven by special characters.

Ohh, that makes sense for the No Special Characters ban (though that kind of puts the kabosh on some fluffy lists, I.E. "Splaterina Kayfax is my Inquisitor Lord, using the Katerina Greyfax rules since there are no rules for generic Hereticus inquisitor lords." So I still don't like it, but I suppose it follows.)

The no FW ban doesn't make sense though, as a out-of-the-way moon system is exactly the place that a lot of FW models would make sense (e.g. Elysian Drop Troops would have a field day in a close-together system of planets, and old, rickety Malcador tanks could easily be found abandoned in such a place!).

They hate FW and people have a bad habit of showing up with FW units with no pricey rule books to go with them.

Martel732 wrote:
It's actually narrative. It's basically a moon system we battle over and it's too far out of the way for special characters to be there. That's the fluff. I just think its funny how every BA list on here is driven by special characters.

Well, I suppose that makes sense. I mean, I'm a little wary. But since you said it was a league, the guy running it might be encouraging people to create their own unique units and such. Anyone can buy a character, he's probably really encouraging you to customize your HQ units and such to give it flavor.

I mean, I've made my own chapter and it's fun to make 'your dudes'. My Chaplain is a conversion from the Primaris Captain. I'm currently trying to figure out what sort of thing I can use for the Crozius to give them a distinctive flavor.

My base list is from before the BA codex, and so my captain just stands in a gunline. Real unique, I now.

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's actually narrative. It's basically a moon system we battle over and it's too far out of the way for special characters to be there. That's the fluff. I just think its funny how every BA list on here is driven by special characters.

Ohh, that makes sense for the No Special Characters ban (though that kind of puts the kabosh on some fluffy lists, I.E. "Splaterina Kayfax is my Inquisitor Lord, using the Katerina Greyfax rules since there are no rules for generic Hereticus inquisitor lords." So I still don't like it, but I suppose it follows.)

The no FW ban doesn't make sense though, as a out-of-the-way moon system is exactly the place that a lot of FW models would make sense (e.g. Elysian Drop Troops would have a field day in a close-together system of planets, and old, rickety Malcador tanks could easily be found abandoned in such a place!).

They hate FW and people have a bad habit of showing up with FW units with no pricey rule books to go with them.

1) is emotional, so yeah, I guess hatred motivates people to do a lot of dumb things.

2) cheating is always bad, and if they have a problem with people cheating, they should examine the people for other methods of cheating as well. I know a bunch of buddies who use battlescribe and don't own their GW codexes and miss rules all the time - though it's usually accidental and a rule that benefits them. I always tell them to simply own and read their codex; the same thing I would tell to someone with a FW model but not the rules (or the rules from Battlescribe or whereever).

Also, the books aren't that expensive; they're like 15 quid iirc for the ebook.

It's not cheating, it's just the hassle of finding the docs on their phones during the game because the players are too cheap to get the IA book. The FW thing completely died with the scatterbike for me, but evidently not in my community. My only real bias is that I hate resin.

Martel732 wrote:
My base list is from before the BA codex, and so my captain just stands in a gunline. Real unique, I now.

Kit him up and make him cool, man. Order up some Forge World Blood Angel legion upgrades, make all of your dudes look unique.

Most Leagues have a 'contest' at the end to vote on the coolest army. In the one I did, a guy that one only a handful of games came in second place overall because he made his army unique and cool looking.

Oh my guy is pretty unique; he's a 5th ed captain. Not many players still have a 5th ed space marine captain.

Martel732 wrote:
It's not cheating, it's just the hassle of finding the docs on their phones during the game because the players are too cheap to get the IA book. The FW thing completely died with the scatterbike for me, but evidently not in my community. My only real bias is that I hate resin.

Resin is a pain in the butt to deal with, and it's not good for you to breathe the particles from it.

But I actually just print out the stuff from the books, or copy them from someone else. Absolutely no one where I'm at has taken issue with me using this for ONE tank- I'd be a fool to buy the whole book for ONE unit.