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Made in us
Storm Guard




There's a local tournament nearby that's running and they have a rule : No forgeworld units. Is this normal? It seems arbitrary to me. I understand if they don't want warhounds and such stomping around, but the tournament is 1000 points - not sure you could fit anything in there that would be titan scale.

It doesn't really affect me, as I have no forgeworld units - but I eventually would like to grab some Death Korps, which would inexplicably be banned from the tournaments by this organizer.

Is this a common thing in tournaments?
   
Made in de
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Not really common allready. More of a legacy thing. Fw does have a bunch of brokenly good units that are not titan scale though.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Yes and no. Forgeworld has long had a reputation of pay to win. Not an unwarranted reputation in some cases. Well waac players would exploit the ever living crap out of the problem models, compounding the issues. Generally you find if a limitation is being imposed something in the shape of, Krieg's normal forgeworld nerf is run it as "normal" IG/AM, which is BS. The other most common ones, i have seen are power level caps, or point per model limits and one forgeworld option. Again i personally think it BS and a hang up of past editions. If we find a problem child, sure ban or limit the model until GW can address it. Personally have not seen one since chapter approved.

Forgeworld in 8th was not completely out of whack from my experience. Most if the under costed things took a massive nerf hammer in chapter approved. Post chapter approved, forgeworld seems perfectly reasonable to outright over costed from my experience.

At this point i think they are hating on forgeworld for the sake of hating.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/12/31 00:13:46


In war there is poetry; in death, release. 
   
Made in us
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker






I agree. The FW hate doesn't seem to have any real traction nowadays. It's a lingering thing from days of old. Playing at a semi local tournament that allows FW nothing seemed overly powerful.

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Frenzied Juggernaut





ft. Bragg

Prob just a group of TO's who either don't have or can't afford FW. So if they can't play with it they wont let anyone. Bet they all play Imperium with either IG tank armies or parking lot space marines with BobbyG.

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SirWeeble wrote:
There's a local tournament nearby that's running and they have a rule : No forgeworld units. Is this normal? It seems arbitrary to me. I understand if they don't want warhounds and such stomping around, but the tournament is 1000 points - not sure you could fit anything in there that would be titan scale.

It doesn't really affect me, as I have no forgeworld units - but I eventually would like to grab some Death Korps, which would inexplicably be banned from the tournaments by this organizer.

Is this a common thing in tournaments?


Mixed really.
It used to be more common, its on the wane these days.

From a TO perspective I am not really surprised why some people ban forgeworld. Lots of people do not play with it - and more importantly do not know what it does. This can quickly be a problem if you figure that from a TO's perspective the main objective is to ensure everyone has a good time.
Some people like anything goes - others feel putting the pre-CA Greater Daemon of Tzeentch on the table was effectively an insult.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




It is still common, but it probably shouldn't be. Forge World is a part of the game. Even GW's own Grand Tournament allows full use of Forge World models and rules.
   
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Storm Guard




I don't know much about the local meta, so I don't know the TOs or what anyone plays or their army builds or if FW is common or not. I would guess than FW is not common locally though.

I just got back into the game and I've only played about 2 games and probably won't even join the tourney, as I'm still pokey with the rules. I'm more into painting/modeling, but it's off-putting that an army I have my eyes on is outright banned by the TO - which I've heard is the only guy that does 40k tourneys for the shop.

It's possible to Counts-as Kreigers as standard IG, but due to the Korps building restrictions, I'd be stuck using either Kreig's heavily restricted list - without it's benefits, or buying specific units just for a competitive tourney list - which I'm not going to do.

My current army is Admech and will work in the tourneys, but their unit choices are few and it won't take long for me to get bored of that restriction.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/31 01:32:09


 
   
Made in au
Unrelenting Rubric Terminator of Tzeentch





Like many others have said, depends on the local meta. FW has a bad rep in some places, in others you'll get run out of town for suggesting that FW isn't the most balanced thing ever. Rarely do you get any give or take between the two sides, just mindless vitriol because they don't like the other persons view on toy soldiers.

At the end of the day, your best bet is to ask around at your local store/club/area to see if a ban on FW is common. If so, well, then you can make up your own mind if it's worth it to buy FW stuff, but please don't ask, find out it's banned, go out and buy a bunch of FW and then complain about it being banned - that way lies madness. If FW is generally accepted and it's only a few events a year where it's off limits, well, again, up to you to decide if you really want what FW has to offer for most games and either sit out or take a "normal" GW list to events where the restriction is in place.

This is an old, old, old argument that shows no sign of being resolved any time soon and both sides are firmly entrenched with their views, so yeah, play to your meta.

 Peregrine wrote:
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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





SirWeeble wrote:
I don't know much about the local meta, so I don't know the TOs or what anyone plays or their army builds or if FW is common or not. I would guess than FW is not common locally though.

I just got back into the game and I've only played about 2 games and probably won't even join the tourney, as I'm still pokey with the rules. I'm more into painting/modeling, but it's off-putting that an army I have my eyes on is outright banned by the TO - which I've heard is the only guy that does 40k tourneys for the shop.


Don't know what to tell ya, other than talk to them. Find out why, my guess would be they don't have access to and are unwilling to pay for the books. But if you have the books and all the other updates and they still say no. I think you landed in a questionable meta, with a bad TO.

Previous editions i would have agreed with the no forgeworld standpoint, or at least limited FW models, in 8th i have yet to see a boogeyman after chapter approved.

Hell i have even ordered my first FW models, to flush out my new project, simply because they look better.

In war there is poetry; in death, release. 
   
Made in ca
Furious Fire Dragon





SirWeeble wrote:
There's a local tournament nearby that's running and they have a rule : No forgeworld units. Is this normal? It seems arbitrary to me. I understand if they don't want warhounds and such stomping around, but the tournament is 1000 points - not sure you could fit anything in there that would be titan scale.

It doesn't really affect me, as I have no forgeworld units - but I eventually would like to grab some Death Korps, which would inexplicably be banned from the tournaments by this organizer.

Is this a common thing in tournaments?

I have a decent DKOK army and my local place is just finally coming around to allowing them. Best bet is to talk to them and see if they will cave. Most of the complaints boil down to being to poor to be able to spend the FW premium price.
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




The forgeworld restriction was very nearly dead...then the FW indexes came out and suddenly you needed blanket bans to just not destroy the game due to how INCREDIBLY poor those books were.

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Made in fi
Fixture of Dakka





It's bunch of sour whiners as to. No real reason for it. Balance least of all. If they cared about balance they would rather ban gw codexes

“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

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Augusta GA

The recent chapter approved book seems to have nerfed most of the troublemaker Forgeworld stuff out of tournament lists anyway. Any TO’s still blanket banning are doing it out of momentum and stubbornness now.
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




 Badablack wrote:
The recent chapter approved book seems to have nerfed most of the troublemaker Forgeworld stuff out of tournament lists anyway. Any TO’s still blanket banning are doing it out of momentum and stubbornness now.


Agreed. That said, policy and perception change slowly.

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Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




It used to be a common ruling, mainly due to 3 factors:

1) Highly unbalanced models
2) Harder accessibility for players (both models and rules)
3) Cannot be purchased in LGS

With CA the first point is now mostly moot, but the other 2 still stand, so i do understand when a TO enforces the FW ban.
   
Made in gb
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





If anyone takes offense to you bringing R&H after the appalling FW index, FAQ and CA then frankly that is someone you should not be playing with in the first place.

Just to clarify, R&H became pure garbage as a faction.

Please note, for those of you who play Chaos Daemons as a faction the term "Daemon" is potentially offensive. Instead, please play codex "Chaos: Mortally Challenged". Thank you. 
   
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Hamburg

Recently, we had a local tourney with 10 players. 1500 pts, no models with more than 16 wounds, no special characters, standard missions. Very smooth gameplay.

A reason for banning FW might be that the models/units may not be balanced with compared with codex/index ones.

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Made in fi
Fixture of Dakka





 wuestenfux wrote:
Recently, we had a local tourney with 10 players. 1500 pts, no models with more than 16 wounds, no special characters, standard missions. Very smooth gameplay.

A reason for banning FW might be that the models/units may not be balanced with compared with codex/index ones.


Sorry but with gw codexes and indexes wiping floor wrth fw models doesn't hold water

Last time fw was bigger source of broken stuff was closer to 3rd edition

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/31 13:19:12


 
   
Made in gb
Imperial Admiral





Glasgow

 wuestenfux wrote:

A reason for banning FW might be that the models/units may not be balanced with compared with codex/index ones.

They certainly aren't balanced with the GW units - the vast majority sit between meh and garbage. The ones that were good or OP all got nerfed hard as is usually the case (and, as usual, quite a few okay units got caught in the crossfire).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/31 13:30:25


 
   
Made in de
Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





And yet, Gargantuan Squiggoths keep doing very well in tournaments, and Zardsnark is a staple in competitive ork lists.

Selective perception is very strong with people in favor of forgeworld at tournaments.

Considering that the vast majority of FW units I have encountered in 10 years of gaming were both operated with pirated rules and not actually represented by models from forgeworld, I can understand that a TO would ban it from their event - even if I would personally not.

Drager wrote:
I'd heard there would be a clatter, then perhaps a hiss, but that's not what it's like. We'd all been told that these things lurked in vents and crevices, that they could sneak up on a man no matter how alert, but that just wasn't what happened. We saw them coming, well, we heard them first, an ear-splitting boom as they accelerated across the plain. They must have been 2 miles away when we heard the crack, but we barely had time to lift our weapons before they were on us and then... past us. Running faster than I could follow. They didn't attack, didn't even try and it was then, as the whole platoon stared after them that a dread crept through me and I turned to see that which they had been running from.

-Infantryman Collins, 5th Umbra Rifles
 
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
And yet, Gargantuan Squiggoths keep doing very well in tournaments, and Zardsnark is a staple in competitive ork lists.


So? That's like saying IG infantry is doing well, Guillimann is doing well etc.

Duh of course FW will also have good units and not just crap. And yes some are broken. But GW codex has lot more of that stuff so if BALANCE is reason then first step should be ban GW codex. That way you get rid of more broken stuff if you want to try to fix balance by stupid sweeping bans of any book that might have broken unit.

As for pirated rules etc...That's actually easier to sort. Require rules to be there and no photocopy or print isn't enough. No different to expecting player to have GW codex with you rather than printed papers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/02 13:06:52


“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

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My local does the same thing, no fw. I think it's a mixture of multiple things, people not actually owning the rules and using custom models / people not being familiar with the rules so not knowing what to expect and then maybe getting cheated because the fw user may have misinterpreted the rules / hold over from earlier fw issues / fw not getting play tested enough to be considered as balanced as normal gw stuff.

An example, a few months ago I watched 2 people playing their lists and getting ready for a local tourney at a different store, one that allowed fw. The player with his custom fw model (some dreadnought) used an attack that did a ton of moral wounds to the other players side, wiping out a bunch of horrors / rubrics / changeling, and put wounds on magnus. The tzeench player was like "good lord, that's a crazy attack, wow is that op" .

Another player overheard and came over (guy is a normal judge at the stores tourneys) and interjected, asking to see the rules because that didn't sound right. Fw player handed over a piece of paper from the net where he got the rules, and that's what they said. Judge player then went to his bag and pulled out the actual fw imperial armor book and looked it up. The units weapons didn't match, whereever the fw player got them from had modified the weapon on the paper to make it better than it should be.

Point being giving the fw player the benefit of doubt that he honestly thought those where the rules you never know when it comes to fw and it's simply safer to say no unless you have the actual stuff. And even then, the player who was getting screwed was going to allow it because they didn't know better and the fw player is known to be a stand up guy, not a wacc or jerk or anything. If the tournament organization doesn't know fw well it may simply be easier to say no fw for them.
   
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Falls Church, VA

Azuza001 wrote:
My local does the same thing, no fw. I think it's a mixture of multiple things, people not actually owning the rules and using custom models / people not being familiar with the rules so not knowing what to expect and then maybe getting cheated because the fw user may have misinterpreted the rules / hold over from earlier fw issues / fw not getting play tested enough to be considered as balanced as normal gw stuff.

An example, a few months ago I watched 2 people playing their lists and getting ready for a local tourney at a different store, one that allowed fw. The player with his custom fw model (some dreadnought) used an attack that did a ton of moral wounds to the other players side, wiping out a bunch of horrors / rubrics / changeling, and put wounds on magnus. The tzeench player was like "good lord, that's a crazy attack, wow is that op" .

Another player overheard and came over (guy is a normal judge at the stores tourneys) and interjected, asking to see the rules because that didn't sound right. Fw player handed over a piece of paper from the net where he got the rules, and that's what they said. Judge player then went to his bag and pulled out the actual fw imperial armor book and looked it up. The units weapons didn't match, whereever the fw player got them from had modified the weapon on the paper to make it better than it should be.

Point being giving the fw player the benefit of doubt that he honestly thought those where the rules you never know when it comes to fw and it's simply safer to say no unless you have the actual stuff. And even then, the player who was getting screwed was going to allow it because they didn't know better and the fw player is known to be a stand up guy, not a wacc or jerk or anything. If the tournament organization doesn't know fw well it may simply be easier to say no fw for them.


I do make a point of having the actual Imperial Armour book for my models.

This is just dumb, and cheating. People should actually get the rules for their models, whether GW or FW.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

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Glasgow

Azuza001 wrote:
My local does the same thing, no fw. I think it's a mixture of multiple things, people not actually owning the rules and using custom models / people not being familiar with the rules so not knowing what to expect and then maybe getting cheated because the fw user may have misinterpreted the rules / hold over from earlier fw issues / fw not getting play tested enough to be considered as balanced as normal gw stuff.

An example, a few months ago I watched 2 people playing their lists and getting ready for a local tourney at a different store, one that allowed fw. The player with his custom fw model (some dreadnought) used an attack that did a ton of moral wounds to the other players side, wiping out a bunch of horrors / rubrics / changeling, and put wounds on magnus. The tzeench player was like "good lord, that's a crazy attack, wow is that op" .

Another player overheard and came over (guy is a normal judge at the stores tourneys) and interjected, asking to see the rules because that didn't sound right. Fw player handed over a piece of paper from the net where he got the rules, and that's what they said. Judge player then went to his bag and pulled out the actual fw imperial armor book and looked it up. The units weapons didn't match, whereever the fw player got them from had modified the weapon on the paper to make it better than it should be.

Point being giving the fw player the benefit of doubt that he honestly thought those where the rules you never know when it comes to fw and it's simply safer to say no unless you have the actual stuff. And even then, the player who was getting screwed was going to allow it because they didn't know better and the fw player is known to be a stand up guy, not a wacc or jerk or anything. If the tournament organization doesn't know fw well it may simply be easier to say no fw for them.


You realise that there was an 'improved' eldar codex floating around online during 5th?

And who hasn't had someone tell them a super awesome rule that turned out to be much less impressive when verified?

Everyone should have the actual rules for their units. Most tournaments insist on this (and all of them should)

There used to be a big problem with not knowing which version of FW rules were current but that isn't a problem a the moment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/02 17:09:00


 
   
Made in be
Crazed Witch Elf





Yeah that's not a Fw issue , that's straight up (maybe ,and it's a big maybe, Unintentionally) Cheating of the highest degree. Right up there with wrongly calculating upgrades/points costs.

By and large Fw isn't OP, but can quickly turn into rock-paper-sciccors ina smaller game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/02 17:07:50





 
   
Made in us
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Banning FW is just defining the meta...there is nothing wrong with that.

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Made in de
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tneva82 wrote:
As for pirated rules etc...That's actually easier to sort. Require rules to be there and no photocopy or print isn't enough. No different to expecting player to have GW codex with you rather than printed papers.


In my 10 years of playing WH40k I have met two players who had both the forgeworld models and the rulebooks to match.
Almost every other player using forgeworld was proxying some random model or using a cheaper third party model or bulked up a GW model with bits as something that battlescribe let them add to their list, often with no rulebooks whatsoever, neither GW nor FW.
Heck, look into any tactics thread. No one will advise people to actually buy FW models to improve lists. They will advise scratch-building them or using some other model instead.

Requiring the actual rules and the actual FW models would pretty much be the same as banning FW for 99% of the players. Maybe it's the better option since that one DKOK guy doesn't get screwed and all others can simply be told to stop bitching and actually pay FW for their work.

IMHO the only reason to use Forgeworld should be because you want to use one of their models. If you are not using their models, you should not be allowed to use their rules.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/02 17:49:14


Drager wrote:
I'd heard there would be a clatter, then perhaps a hiss, but that's not what it's like. We'd all been told that these things lurked in vents and crevices, that they could sneak up on a man no matter how alert, but that just wasn't what happened. We saw them coming, well, we heard them first, an ear-splitting boom as they accelerated across the plain. They must have been 2 miles away when we heard the crack, but we barely had time to lift our weapons before they were on us and then... past us. Running faster than I could follow. They didn't attack, didn't even try and it was then, as the whole platoon stared after them that a dread crept through me and I turned to see that which they had been running from.

-Infantryman Collins, 5th Umbra Rifles
 
   
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On moon miranda.

FW stuff in general hasn't been a real balance issue outside a couple outliers in any edition of at least the last 10 years and 4 editions, certainly hasnt had anything near the broken record of core GW stuff. When allowed at 5E, 6E and 7E events, FW stuff never really dominated tables, FW wasnt necessary to play at those levels and was far more often than not completely absent from winning lists.

Most issues with FW come from people either making stuff up and claiming its FW (*very common*), playing it wrong or with outdated rules (also very common), or abusing one of the rare outliers (which FW usually nerfs long before GW does their stuff), or from people with deep seated neurosis that cant shake the "it was banned in 4E and should remain so forever" mindset.

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Falls Church, VA

Even the stuff banned in 4E really wasn't a big deal.

I always laughed when my local group had a blast with FW in 3e and 4e, and then they were banned at tournaments. We'd watch tournament players gnash their teeth over Iron Warriors heavy support spam and whatnot, and then happily play away with our Leman Russ Vanquishers fighting Baneblades.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
 
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