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 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
The Peltists and Hoplites seem like a nice idea, but they just aren't worth the points (not a surprise from forgeworld.) And it seems silly for them to not get traits. If they were troops, got traits, and were ~2 points cheaper, then we'd be talking.

You want a guardsman with double firepower, carapace armour, an invulnerable and canticles, plus two alternate firing modes to cost less than 9ppm?

FW isn't dying, they're just rightly moving towards Primaris.

changemod wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
The Peltists and Hoplites seem like a nice idea, but they just aren't worth the points (not a surprise from forgeworld.) And it seems silly for them to not get traits. If they were troops, got traits, and were ~2 points cheaper, then we'd be talking.

You want a guardsman with double firepower, carapace armour, an invulnerable and canticles, plus two alternate firing modes to cost less than 9ppm?

40k forums in a nutshell.

changemod wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
The Peltists and Hoplites seem like a nice idea, but they just aren't worth the points (not a surprise from forgeworld.) And it seems silly for them to not get traits. If they were troops, got traits, and were ~2 points cheaper, then we'd be talking.

You want a guardsman with double firepower, carapace armour, an invulnerable and canticles, plus two alternate firing modes to cost less than 9ppm?

Thats where the "Always competitive, all the time" internet mentality has lead us. If it isn't stupidly broken it isn't worth it.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

And the primary purpose of this product was to flesh out the sodding AdMech in 40K. It was finished, and while everyone grasps that they had to update the rules even if they don't care for 8th, the fact it's now apparently being even further delayed to change the background material for no worthwhile reason given FW sell one Primaris-related kit and it's a HUEG superheavy that only a handful of people will ever buy.

That's the primary reason many people want the book, but the primary purpose of the Imperial Armour books has never been the rules. They're there to support the story and models.

Which is also why they're talking about alternative versions of the Primarchs (be that daemons, or simply the same character later in the Heresy. All the ones we have now are basically presented as they were at the outbreak of the war); because that's where the Heresy story is going, so they want the models to reflect that.

Yes? So? And? Que?

It had a story, written, complete, one a lot of us were anticipating. Nobody's saying they should never, ever, ever produce content in the advanced timeline, just that there was no need at all to take a complete story in the pre-Primarchfest setting and rewrite it to cram in the newshiny "official" storyline(or rather, the newshiny "official" models, since for all your claims of story that's what this change is about; supporting Primaris sales for GW).

You go on to say the story "no longer fits", but that's been addressed - it fits fine, where it was in the timeline before. It doesn't need to take place in "the present" any more than Badab or Heresy or the other IA books did - some of them were, some of them weren't, people still bought them. This pathological need to keep everything "moving forward" that seems to have developed at GW and their subsidiaries in the last couple of years is something I really detest despite all the other positive changes they've been making - the whole point of a setting this broad is you don't have to keep telling the same ongoing soap opera storyline, you can branch out and dig deeper into "historical" events as well.

But no, gotta sell dem Bigmarines. Sure, it's all about the story

 Overread wrote:
FW is clearly restructuring itself and pushing to become more mainstream in GW product lines. They've added a Sigmar segment to their development team and others for the smaller games as well. In short I think FW is simply cutting product lines that have sold in small quantities overall and is likely going to strip out some more before expanding what they offer.

Which is a real shame, IMO. What made FW useful and appealing was their willingness to produce passion projects and sell items that would only ever do small quantities, just turning them into an adjunct for the main studio producing things that are only just non-viable enough to sell in plastic is a complete waste.

SeanDrake wrote:
Very sad I, have heard that these are likely to be the only Mechanicum rules 40k gets.

FoC has been taken out back and given the emperor's mercy, will only be seen if someone is bin diving in Nottingham.

The office politics continue and FW are losing ground, expect them to be only churning out AoS crap and specialist games within 18 months. Under the banner of GW specialist games as FW is quietly shuffled off under the stairs like a discarded mk7 marine.

And what's truly, genuinely sad is now you see stuff like this and it can't just be dismissed out of hand.

I very much appreciate the hoplite and peltast and burrowing thing rules for AdMech. They don't seem very strong, but that might be asking for too much, and just having them at all is nice.

changemod wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
The Peltists and Hoplites seem like a nice idea, but they just aren't worth the points (not a surprise from forgeworld.) And it seems silly for them to not get traits. If they were troops, got traits, and were ~2 points cheaper, then we'd be talking.

You want a guardsman with double firepower, carapace armour, an invulnerable and canticles, plus two alternate firing modes to cost less than 9ppm?

I want it to be worth fielding. Save me the hyperbole. Guardsmen have the same firepower for half the price with orders. Multiple weapon profiles are meaningless if they aren't useful. With the way AP rules work, the 4+ and 5++ are basically redundant. So if you are paying for both of them (which you are), then you're paying too much. 5+ at 4ppm is way more efficient than 4+ at 9pmm. Or even 7ppm. If we still used old AP rules, 4+ would be great. But its just not now.

Of course, the problem isn't really that these units cost too much, it's that guardsmen are so cheap and effective, and there's no real hard counters to hordes anymore except having your own mass firepower horde. If we were still in an edition where flamers were cheap, generated a bunch of hits, and ignored guard armor, then it would be worth paying double to have a unit that's armor isn't penned by a flamer. Then these would have some use. Or if we were back in 5th before Orders were added. But currently, Guardsmen set the standard by which every other unit must be compared. If an imperial unit is going to have a place on the board, it needs to have a use that makes it more attractive than just running more Infantry squads. Which means that, in some way, it needs to be better than guardsmen (even if worse in another. It's a tradeoff). Which means either more firepower, more durability, more command points, more scoring potential, etc.

So lets see:
Firepower? Guard have about the same amount for half the cost with orders. Also known as double the firepower.
Durability? Guard have far more once you adjust for point cost, despite the difference in saves.
Hard counters? Anything that counters guard counters this just as hard due to ap and save changes mentioned above.
Scoring? Guard are troops, these are not.
Command points? See previous.
Close combat? Guard are better with orders, and have access to various trait and character buffs.
Flexibility? Despite weapon profiles, guard are still better.

The only place that these stand out is that since you will have less squads, you opponent cannot get as many kill points off them. But that's not enough.

So, to summarize, yes, I want a guardsman with double firepower, carapace armour, an invulnerable and canticles, plus two alternate firing modes to cost less than 9ppm. Because it needs to cost less to be worth fielding. It should probably cost 6 in its current form, 7 if it got Traits, and Perhaps 8 if it was also a Troop.

EDIT: Another useful comparison point would be Dark Eldar Warriors, which are also BS 3, but are troops and 6ppm.

40k forums in a nutshell.

I know, right? It strange that there's such a huge pattern of people realizing that many units are statted so poorly that they are never worth using. The problem must be that those people are just petty whiners. The fact that there's so much of it its become a meme cannot be that GW can't write rules for #$%^.

Thats where the "Always competitive, all the time" internet mentality has lead us. If it isn't stupidly broken it isn't worth it.

There's a lot of space between 'not worth using' and 'stupidly broken.' Stupidly broken for this unit would be 5ppm. I'm not advocating that.

 Galas wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
The Peltists and Hoplites seem like a nice idea, but they just aren't worth the points (not a surprise from forgeworld.) And it seems silly for them to not get traits. If they were troops, got traits, and were ~2 points cheaper, then we'd be talking.

You want a guardsman with double firepower, carapace armour, an invulnerable and canticles, plus two alternate firing modes to cost less than 9ppm?

Thats where the "Always competitive, all the time" internet mentality has lead us. If it isn't stupidly broken it isn't worth it.

People want an even cheaper, more effective version of the 'battalion tax to give Knights an extra 5 cp' over 180 points of guardsmen.

But yeah, FW is getting their products split in two ways:
They're getting rid of stuff that doesn't sell as well...
And they're giving other models 40k rules.

I have a feeling that they're probably noticing that models that get 40k rules sell a lot better than the random stuff for 30k that doesn't have any 40k rules. Seeing things like the Astral Claws and Red Scorpions get canned is sad, but I bet you that if they had proper Chapter Tactics for 40k, this wouldn't be a problem. :/

drbored wrote:

 Galas wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
The Peltists and Hoplites seem like a nice idea, but they just aren't worth the points (not a surprise from forgeworld.) And it seems silly for them to not get traits. If they were troops, got traits, and were ~2 points cheaper, then we'd be talking.

You want a guardsman with double firepower, carapace armour, an invulnerable and canticles, plus two alternate firing modes to cost less than 9ppm?

Thats where the "Always competitive, all the time" internet mentality has lead us. If it isn't stupidly broken it isn't worth it.

People want an even cheaper, more effective version of the 'battalion tax to give Knights an extra 5 cp' over 180 points of guardsmen.

I'm happy to have it cost a bunch more if you get something for those points your paying. It's a matter of efficiency.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
The Peltists and Hoplites seem like a nice idea, but they just aren't worth the points (not a surprise from forgeworld.) And it seems silly for them to not get traits. If they were troops, got traits, and were ~2 points cheaper, then we'd be talking.

You want a guardsman with double firepower, carapace armour, an invulnerable and canticles, plus two alternate firing modes to cost less than 9ppm?

I want it to be worth fielding. Save me the hyperbole.

Hyperbole? I gave a literal description and in fact forgot to mention BS3+.

The rest of your comments strongly imply that you missed that they’re rapid fire 2 on their lasgun equivalent fire mode.

changemod wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
The Peltists and Hoplites seem like a nice idea, but they just aren't worth the points (not a surprise from forgeworld.) And it seems silly for them to not get traits. If they were troops, got traits, and were ~2 points cheaper, then we'd be talking.

You want a guardsman with double firepower, carapace armour, an invulnerable and canticles, plus two alternate firing modes to cost less than 9ppm?

I want it to be worth fielding. Save me the hyperbole.

Hyperbole? I gave a literal description and in fact forgot to mention BS3+.

The rest of your comments strongly imply that you missed that they’re rapid fire 2 on their lasgun equivalent fire mode.

I didn't miss it. Did you ignore the part where I mentioned Orders? Are you aware of what FRFSRF does?

And yes, with BS3+ they do have more firepower on a model per model basis. And they can get a re-roll aura more easily than some types of guard. But they are still over twice the cost. Guard still have about double the firepower once you adjust for points.

EDIT: To be fair and include the cost of the order giving character, then things do pull more in favor of the Peltasts. So we're looking at guard being more like 1.5x the firepower, not 2x. But that's still better, and then all the other factors I listed...

I don’t find 4+ (improvable to 3+ with canticles) to be redundant at all. There’s lots of lasguns, hurricane bolters, and splinter rifles out there.

meleti wrote:
I don’t find 4+ (improvable to 3+ with canticles) to be redundant at all. There’s lots of lasguns, hurricane bolters, and splinter rifles out there.

You are correct. It's the 5++ that is redundant, not the 4+. Because the 5++ is only going to get used when getting shot by weapons with ap of more than -1, but this unit is well countered by more common weapons like the ones you listed, so no need to waste the better shots on it.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

meleti wrote:
I don’t find 4+ (improvable to 3+ with canticles) to be redundant at all. There’s lots of lasguns, hurricane bolters, and splinter rifles out there.

You are correct. It's the 5++ that is redundant, not the 4+. Because the 5++ is only going to get used when getting shot by weapons with ap of more than -1, but this unit is well countered by more common weapons like the ones you listed, so no need to waste the better shots on it.

Yeah, the 5++ won’t come up a lot unless you play against something like Deathwatch. But it’s not like a BS3+ 9ppm unit is overcosted. It’s just not costed so aggressively that it would break the meta. Like 7ppm Stygies Secutarii troops might.

Now that they've got somewhat official rules for 40k, it wouldn't surprise me if GW were to tweak the cost of wargear or the actual models around the end of the year with CA2018.

The 5++ is mostly a lore consideration, given they need to defend titans. Given how fairly the unit is priced, I’d assume they didn’t tax us for it.

Now that we've got rules for the Termite, I'm hoping his big brother the Mole will be able to transport Primaris Marines

 zedmeister wrote:
Blimey, some of those red scorpion upgrades and barely a year or so old...

Not that I can see. What am I missing? This is old Badab War stuff.

Really the only thing that the Secutarii need is access to FW Dogmas and Canticles. Once you got that, you got a pretty damn awesome selection of Elite choices, plus I'd like them to benefit from the various Strategems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

meleti wrote:
I don’t find 4+ (improvable to 3+ with canticles) to be redundant at all. There’s lots of lasguns, hurricane bolters, and splinter rifles out there.

You are correct. It's the 5++ that is redundant, not the 4+. Because the 5++ is only going to get used when getting shot by weapons with ap of more than -1, but this unit is well countered by more common weapons like the ones you listed, so no need to waste the better shots on it.

Not once they're in cover. It also makes them more impervious to things with AP-2, like Kraken Rounds from Primaris Deathwatch as a super prime example, and Disintegrator spam from Dark Eldar.

drbored wrote:

 Galas wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
The Peltists and Hoplites seem like a nice idea, but they just aren't worth the points (not a surprise from forgeworld.) And it seems silly for them to not get traits. If they were troops, got traits, and were ~2 points cheaper, then we'd be talking.

You want a guardsman with double firepower, carapace armour, an invulnerable and canticles, plus two alternate firing modes to cost less than 9ppm?

Thats where the "Always competitive, all the time" internet mentality has lead us. If it isn't stupidly broken it isn't worth it.

People want an even cheaper, more effective version of the 'battalion tax to give Knights an extra 5 cp' over 180 points of guardsmen.

But yeah, FW is getting their products split in two ways:
They're getting rid of stuff that doesn't sell as well...
And they're giving other models 40k rules.

I have a feeling that they're probably noticing that models that get 40k rules sell a lot better than the random stuff for 30k that doesn't have any 40k rules. Seeing things like the Astral Claws and Red Scorpions get canned is sad, but I bet you that if they had proper Chapter Tactics for 40k, this wouldn't be a problem. :/

Good, get rid of the dead weight. Get us new stuff and drop the stuff people aren't buying anymore. It's just a waste of money. Also, people are whining about stuff going out of production, but that stuff has been for sale for years. No one bought it. So they put it in last chance to buy and now everyone and their mother needs it.
I'm disappointed that FW is taking so long to get 40k rules out for 30k stuff. They are leaving money on the table by not giving SA and AD Mech rules.

Getting rid of the old versions of the same character isn’t surprising, plus the old upgrade kits. Didn’t they just launch new pads a while ago, though?

And as someone who owns some of those icon kits, they were old and the flash you needed to cut them out of was as thick as the icons. No surprise they're going.

I might pick up the astral claws master of the forge to get the only official GW conversion Beamer. Maybe. Probably not.

 Davespil wrote:

drbored wrote:

 Galas wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
The Peltists and Hoplites seem like a nice idea, but they just aren't worth the points (not a surprise from forgeworld.) And it seems silly for them to not get traits. If they were troops, got traits, and were ~2 points cheaper, then we'd be talking.

You want a guardsman with double firepower, carapace armour, an invulnerable and canticles, plus two alternate firing modes to cost less than 9ppm?

Thats where the "Always competitive, all the time" internet mentality has lead us. If it isn't stupidly broken it isn't worth it.

People want an even cheaper, more effective version of the 'battalion tax to give Knights an extra 5 cp' over 180 points of guardsmen.

But yeah, FW is getting their products split in two ways:
They're getting rid of stuff that doesn't sell as well...
And they're giving other models 40k rules.

I have a feeling that they're probably noticing that models that get 40k rules sell a lot better than the random stuff for 30k that doesn't have any 40k rules. Seeing things like the Astral Claws and Red Scorpions get canned is sad, but I bet you that if they had proper Chapter Tactics for 40k, this wouldn't be a problem. :/

Good, get rid of the dead weight. Get us new stuff and drop the stuff people aren't buying anymore. It's just a waste of money. Also, people are whining about stuff going out of production, but that stuff has been for sale for years. No one bought it. So they put it in last chance to buy and now everyone and their mother needs it.
I'm disappointed that FW is taking so long to get 40k rules out for 30k stuff. They are leaving money on the table by not giving SA and AD Mech rules.

I think the tragedy is that these things are getting discontinued rather than getting rules that make them worthwhile. For example, I've waited 4 editions to run forgeworld chaos dreadnoughts. I remember back in late 4th thinking "Wow, I can't wait until the dreadnought gets buffed enough to be worth using so I can field those models." I even own a couple, that I used despite them being pretty damn bad in 5th (see my signature.) Then we got the helbrute, which isn't terrible, but it's not a dreadnought. I would buy multiple FW dreads and use them as helbrutes now....if Chaos Marines were worth using (yes, I am aware Chaos HQs + daemons are, but that's not chaos marines.) And now the dreads are out of production. And it's maddening, because FW HAS put out Emperor's Children dread rules for sonic weapons. And they are actually damn solid. If only emperor's children was worth playing...

And I had such high hopes for the Thousand Sons codex, as I have a Thousand Sons dread. And they could have had something rad like rubric dread rules. But then they just gave them generic helbrutes and even changed their fluff to say that thousand sons helbrutes are not even thousand sons, to justify them not having sorcerer or rubric dreads. Would they have done this if the FW models were still in production?

The Deathguard dread model also exists, but they also got vanilla helbrutes. And we're expecting World Eaters and Emperor's children codices at some point. And they'll probably get the generic profile too. I have no doubt that GW has missed out on thousands of sales on Legion dreads alone because they don't put out rules for them.

I know of several people who would have been interested in Red Scorpions, or Krieg, or other stuff. But they didn't get the rules update. And now the models are going, so they never will. There's thousands of dollars I would have spent on FW stuff that i've spent elsewhere or on other hobbies just because they couldn't do a very simple rules update that would probably take an afternoon to write. And I'm not the only one I'm sure. And that's really dumb.

I’m beginning to wonder if Fires was an Alan Bligh pet project and no one else wants to touch it out of pain / respect. FW is a pretty close knit community and if that was the last thing one of my friends wrote, I’d be loathe to re-write it.

I wonder if FW is having some policy changes to move it a bit away from personal pet projects.

Traditionally it was a boutique line that let designers be free to make closer to what they wanted without the product constraints of the GW official lines.

However it also has some very heavy bias toward the Marines and Imperials. Xeno and Fantasy lines did get decent support early on, but in more recent years both have had very spotty to low support (fantasy dwindling to almost nothing; whilst Xeno support is hit and miss - Tau get a big hit, but then a lot of what they have is similar to marines/Imperials - blocky war engines; mean while ork and eldar have a fair bit but a lot of it is much older).


I think they are cutting out stuff that just hasn't sold well and with opening up a fantasy department there's a clear move to step away from just "pet projects" and refocus on providing greater diversity of support from FW. Already we see it producing additions for the boxed games like Necromunda and I think broadening its base is also a step toward making FW a more popular line of products. Don't forget GW opened that new "Cafe" site in the USA which I believe allows for USA side ordering of FW products (ergo cutting down significantly on the postage).

 Jadenim wrote:
I’m beginning to wonder if Fires was an Alan Bligh pet project and no one else wants to touch it out of pain / respect. FW is a pretty close knit community and if that was the last thing one of my friends wrote, I’d be loathe to re-write it.

Ok, so kill the book then and release the Tau/Admech rules as a separate index-style book. Because let's be honest here, nobody really cares about FoC because of the fluff about some random war we've never heard of. We want it because we want rules updates to use our models in 40k.

 Jadenim wrote:
I’m beginning to wonder if Fires was an Alan Bligh pet project and no one else wants to touch it out of pain / respect. FW is a pretty close knit community and if that was the last thing one of my friends wrote, I’d be loathe to re-write it.

No, we already know that it was an Andy Hoare pet project that he was working on before he got the specialist games job.

 Overread wrote:

I think they are cutting out stuff that just hasn't sold well and with opening up a fantasy department there's a clear move to step away from just "pet projects" and refocus on providing greater diversity of support from FW. Already we see it producing additions for the boxed games like Necromunda and I think broadening its base is also a step toward making FW a more popular line of products. Don't forget GW opened that new "Cafe" site in the USA which I believe allows for USA side ordering of FW products (ergo cutting down significantly on the postage).

Warhammer Cafe allowing for USA ordering of FW products means nothing. It's in Texas---that's not just a "day trip" for many people.

SeanDrake wrote:


Under the banner of GW specialist games as FW is quietly shuffled off under the stairs like a discarded mk7 marine.

The discarded Mk7 Marine that forms the backdrop of most of the 'We've found the Assassin in the Diorama' photo.

The one that is the very first thing people see once they enter the GW Exhibition centre because it is under the stairs that you climb to get into the Gaming Hall, Bugman's and so on?


It could be better if one compared FW's potential future to the recently shuffled off 2nd Ed IG metals range.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Overread wrote:

I think they are cutting out stuff that just hasn't sold well and with opening up a fantasy department there's a clear move to step away from just "pet projects" and refocus on providing greater diversity of support from FW. Already we see it producing additions for the boxed games like Necromunda and I think broadening its base is also a step toward making FW a more popular line of products. Don't forget GW opened that new "Cafe" site in the USA which I believe allows for USA side ordering of FW products (ergo cutting down significantly on the postage).

Warhammer Cafe allowing for USA ordering of FW products means nothing. It's in Texas---that's not just a "day trip" for many people.

Yes but surely it makes postage cheaper if you can order direct from there instead of from FW and have to pay shipping fees as well as wait for customs clearance and any fees there too.

 Overread wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Overread wrote:

I think they are cutting out stuff that just hasn't sold well and with opening up a fantasy department there's a clear move to step away from just "pet projects" and refocus on providing greater diversity of support from FW. Already we see it producing additions for the boxed games like Necromunda and I think broadening its base is also a step toward making FW a more popular line of products. Don't forget GW opened that new "Cafe" site in the USA which I believe allows for USA side ordering of FW products (ergo cutting down significantly on the postage).

Warhammer Cafe allowing for USA ordering of FW products means nothing. It's in Texas---that's not just a "day trip" for many people.

Yes but surely it makes postage cheaper if you can order direct from there instead of from FW and have to pay shipping fees as well as wait for customs clearance and any fees there too.

Again, you need to get there.