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One thing to consider is how the units will all synergize together. Custodes are going to be only the second codex (after death guard) specificly DESIGNED for 8th edition. so it could very much be a "Greater then the sum of it's parts" deal

 Xenomancers wrote:

leopard wrote:
So apparently they can smack a horde pretty well.. for what they will likely cost if each one of them isn't smacking five or six a turn on average - thats both combat phases so 10-12 per game turn in combat, plus 3-4 a turn as they move in then not seeing the point of that.

Besides, they don't come over as a "horde killing" army, the Imperium has plenty of crowd control options.

My main concern though is how they handle mortal wounds basically dropping them like flies?

Can perhaps run SS for anti-smite stuff, but then thats not the most prolific source of MW around here.

At least Orks can generally take the hits for a round or two

The real test is going to be how well they survive against massed low str firepower - FRFSRF will likely murk them. I assume the terms are going to be 2+/4++ with 3 wounds t4 and probably upwards of 60 points. Plasma isn't that great against it but dark reapers will murk them.

I wouldn't be too worried about lasguns, FRFSRF or no. A T5 W3 2+sv model is gonna need 108 BS4+ Lasgun shots to kill on average, flashlights are not going to be terribly effective at killing Custodes.

BrianDavion wrote:
One thing to consider is how the units will all synergize together. Custodes are going to be only the second codex (after death guard) specificly DESIGNED for 8th edition. so it could very much be a "Greater then the sum of it's parts" deal

Errr... death guard don't have amazing synergy as an army. It has a lot of characters with a lot of auras, but pricing and the general mediocrity of both the auras and base units mean it is hardly impressive. I wouldn't expect custodes to stand out particularly as this is very much an edition designed to punish elite armies, and unless they are dishing out Robby G level auras there is only so much they can do.

SilverAlien wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
One thing to consider is how the units will all synergize together. Custodes are going to be only the second codex (after death guard) specificly DESIGNED for 8th edition. so it could very much be a "Greater then the sum of it's parts" deal

Errr... death guard don't have amazing synergy as an army. It has a lot of characters with a lot of auras, but pricing and the general mediocrity of both the auras and base units mean it is hardly impressive. I wouldn't expect custodes to stand out particularly as this is very much an edition designed to punish elite armies, and unless they are dishing out Robby G level auras there is only so much they can do.

I tend to agree honestly, but I've a fools hope we'll turn out to be wrong. we know that even standard custodes troops can with a velexia have a bubble effect so..

SilverAlien wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
One thing to consider is how the units will all synergize together. Custodes are going to be only the second codex (after death guard) specificly DESIGNED for 8th edition. so it could very much be a "Greater then the sum of it's parts" deal

Errr... death guard don't have amazing synergy as an army. It has a lot of characters with a lot of auras, but pricing and the general mediocrity of both the auras and base units mean it is hardly impressive. I wouldn't expect custodes to stand out particularly as this is very much an edition designed to punish elite armies, and unless they are dishing out Robby G level auras there is only so much they can do.

I don't think he meant just aura buffs when talking about synergy (did you Brian? I dunno...)

Think about the core components of a strong 8th edition gunline army:

1. Weak chaff for screening and area denial/objective holding
2. Powerful, long range shooting units to deal the bulk of the damage to the enemy
3. Fast moving, hard hitting 'linebacker' units to eliminate threats/collect distant objectives
4. Effective buffing mechanisms to amplify output/durability of powerful units

This is for a shooty, semi mobile line army, adjust for your armies playstyle. Each unit in the army must fill 1 or more of the above roles, and once all roles are filled the elements add up to a powerful and resilient 'system' designed to be victorious in 40k games. This is what an army with synergy means.

That said - I don't believe you will see much synergy from the custodes range. You pay a lot of points for powerful close combat ability. Aside from the jetbikes, eveything will be pretty slow. Already this is not a good recipe no matter what edition you're playing. Units are expensive (obviously) so you won't have many of them, and will therefore require a single unit to fulfil several roles well. Most of the custodes range will be pretty one dimensional from the looks of them, not much different from the basic custodian guardsman in terms of utility on the table top.

Therefore, the relative competitiveness of the custodes codex will depend simply on points cost - will we be getting enough durability and offensive power for the points paid to overcome the obvious deficiencies? Time will tell. The cost of the jetbike will be key as I mentioned, as these will be our only real mobile unit, and with the hurricane bolters may be our best way to deal with mass light infantry.

Spartacus wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
One thing to consider is how the units will all synergize together. Custodes are going to be only the second codex (after death guard) specificly DESIGNED for 8th edition. so it could very much be a "Greater then the sum of it's parts" deal

Errr... death guard don't have amazing synergy as an army. It has a lot of characters with a lot of auras, but pricing and the general mediocrity of both the auras and base units mean it is hardly impressive. I wouldn't expect custodes to stand out particularly as this is very much an edition designed to punish elite armies, and unless they are dishing out Robby G level auras there is only so much they can do.

I don't think he meant just aura buffs when talking about synergy (did you Brian? I dunno...)

Think about the core components of a strong 8th edition gunline army:

1. Weak chaff for screening and area denial/objective holding
2. Powerful, long range shooting units to deal the bulk of the damage to the enemy
3. Fast moving, hard hitting 'linebacker' units to eliminate threats/collect distant objectives
4. Effective buffing mechanisms to amplify output/durability of powerful units

This is for a shooty, semi mobile line army, adjust for your armies playstyle. Each unit in the army must fill 1 or more of the above roles, and once all roles are filled the elements add up to a powerful and resilient 'system' designed to be victorious in 40k games. This is what an army with synergy means.

That said - I don't believe you will see much synergy from the custodes range. You pay a lot of points for powerful close combat ability. Aside from the jetbikes, eveything will be pretty slow. Already this is not a good recipe no matter what edition you're playing. Units are expensive (obviously) so you won't have many of them, and will therefore require a single unit to fulfil several roles well. Most of the custodes range will be pretty one dimensional from the looks of them, not much different from the basic custodian guardsman in terms of utility on the table top.

Therefore, the relative competitiveness of the custodes codex will depend simply on points cost - will we be getting enough durability and offensive power for the points paid to overcome the obvious deficiencies? Time will tell. The cost of the jetbike will be key as I mentioned, as these will be our only real mobile unit, and with the hurricane bolters may be our best way to deal with mass light infantry.

As I said ultimately the synergy is simply sometimes a matter of the whole being greater then the sum of it's parts.

if for example the jet bikes synergize with the custodes and terminators to create a powerful "hammer and anvil" effect.

stratgiums, war lord traits etc. these could all allow a custodes list to hit above it's weight level.

Well... no. Not in 8e. This is a very basic system, and you need a certain level of depth not present for that to occur. I can't think of a single army that I would say fits the idea of "more than a sum of its parts".

SilverAlien wrote:
Well... no. Not in 8e. This is a very basic system, and you need a certain level of depth not present for that to occur. I can't think of a single army that I would say fits the idea of "more than a sum of its parts".

Imperial Guard comes to mind. I'd argue pre-nerf conscripts + Comissar where a GREAT example of synergy in action. (so great that it got nerfed)

BrianDavion wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Well... no. Not in 8e. This is a very basic system, and you need a certain level of depth not present for that to occur. I can't think of a single army that I would say fits the idea of "more than a sum of its parts".

Imperial Guard comes to mind. I'd argue pre-nerf conscripts + Comissar where a GREAT example of synergy in action. (so great that it got nerfed)

Hmm yeah I wouldnt call that synergy. Thats just one unit buffing another. Its the basic function/reason for the cost of the commissar and the reason you (used to) bring one.

Well... no. Not in 8e. This is a very basic system, and you need a certain level of depth not present for that to occur. I can't think of a single army that I would say fits the idea of "more than a sum of its parts".

True enough I'd say, the best units in 40k are just the ones that can kill the most for the least amount of points at the end of the day. You can always bring it back to points cost to balance just about anything.

Spartacus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Well... no. Not in 8e. This is a very basic system, and you need a certain level of depth not present for that to occur. I can't think of a single army that I would say fits the idea of "more than a sum of its parts".

Imperial Guard comes to mind. I'd argue pre-nerf conscripts + Comissar where a GREAT example of synergy in action. (so great that it got nerfed)

Hmm yeah I wouldnt call that synergy. Thats just one unit buffing another. Its the basic function/reason for the cost of the commissar and the reason you (used to) bring one.

it was just one example of a fairly obvious bit of synergy. you see real synergy in the codexes that individualy the units are just alright (useally hyper specialized) but when taken together become really good. the ideal synergistic codex is one that dominates but no one can look at a single thing that needs to be nerfed. it's just that god because the rules work together so well.

IG I suspect is the best example of that this edition. or maybe eldar.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 vonjankmon wrote:
So if in like 1-2 years you don't see a new SoB line, then yeah, it's time to get upset.

15 years is almost twice the time it took to design and build the first rocket that BROUGHT PEOPLE SAFELY TO THE MOON AND BACK so no I'm upset already deal with it.

Yeah, given almost two decades where they were willing to chance it on Admech and GSC, and then troll us with Sisters of fething Silence, we're way past time.

That said, I'm mostly just numb about it at this point.

So, my thoughts are simple.

Great idea – wrong time. Personally, I feel like the better choice would have been to use them and something like SoS and SoB as a “grand” ending to the codex releases/opening to 40k 8.1.

As for the video. Not seen it, but the whole “Watched and waited” tag line, for me, really doesn’t match the Custodes. Sure, they’ve watched (guarded the Palance) the Imperium pass by, but wait? They’d still be sat around on Terra with their thumbs up their arrrses if BobbyG hadn’t come back and told them to get involved. I’d hardly call that “acting on something they’ve been waiting for”.
Does seem like a little bit of an over hype.

BrianDavion wrote:

Spartacus wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
One thing to consider is how the units will all synergize together. Custodes are going to be only the second codex (after death guard) specificly DESIGNED for 8th edition. so it could very much be a "Greater then the sum of it's parts" deal

Errr... death guard don't have amazing synergy as an army. It has a lot of characters with a lot of auras, but pricing and the general mediocrity of both the auras and base units mean it is hardly impressive. I wouldn't expect custodes to stand out particularly as this is very much an edition designed to punish elite armies, and unless they are dishing out Robby G level auras there is only so much they can do.

I don't think he meant just aura buffs when talking about synergy (did you Brian? I dunno...)

Think about the core components of a strong 8th edition gunline army:

1. Weak chaff for screening and area denial/objective holding
2. Powerful, long range shooting units to deal the bulk of the damage to the enemy
3. Fast moving, hard hitting 'linebacker' units to eliminate threats/collect distant objectives
4. Effective buffing mechanisms to amplify output/durability of powerful units

This is for a shooty, semi mobile line army, adjust for your armies playstyle. Each unit in the army must fill 1 or more of the above roles, and once all roles are filled the elements add up to a powerful and resilient 'system' designed to be victorious in 40k games. This is what an army with synergy means.

That said - I don't believe you will see much synergy from the custodes range. You pay a lot of points for powerful close combat ability. Aside from the jetbikes, eveything will be pretty slow. Already this is not a good recipe no matter what edition you're playing. Units are expensive (obviously) so you won't have many of them, and will therefore require a single unit to fulfil several roles well. Most of the custodes range will be pretty one dimensional from the looks of them, not much different from the basic custodian guardsman in terms of utility on the table top.

Therefore, the relative competitiveness of the custodes codex will depend simply on points cost - will we be getting enough durability and offensive power for the points paid to overcome the obvious deficiencies? Time will tell. The cost of the jetbike will be key as I mentioned, as these will be our only real mobile unit, and with the hurricane bolters may be our best way to deal with mass light infantry.

As I said ultimately the synergy is simply sometimes a matter of the whole being greater then the sum of it's parts.

if for example the jet bikes synergize with the custodes and terminators to create a powerful "hammer and anvil" effect.

stratgiums, war lord traits etc. these could all allow a custodes list to hit above it's weight level.

In terms of unit/army synergy, I hope, from a fluff point of view, it is limited. For example, a big deal about the way Custodes fight was made in the Burning of Prospero book. The Space Wolves noted how, while they fight together as a “unit”, each Custode fought alone, un-supported by their brothers. It was a big point of difference between them and the Legions (especially Wolves).

I also fear slightly for their release. Custodes are going to be tough individually to take out, but, in order to be that tough they are going to be very expensive points wise. I’m thinking at least Centurion level of points at a minimum, for things like the Terminators. Anything less is going to require some points adjustments in lots of places. But, once they get to those sorts of points levels they will have the same problems as all the other similar units. It doesn’t matter to me at all, if a 300+ point unit is stuck mid board getting tar-pitted over and over again by low cost units, whilst taking smites/MWs every turn – not to mention all the shooting. Sure, they will prob get to deep-strike, but, which such a small army they’ll get split up and denied relatively easily.

 Primark G wrote:
Eldar and Tau got lots of love throughout 6th and 7th editions - it is nice to see the power swinging back again.

The Riptide got lots of love in 6th and 7th edition, not the Tau.

The Tau had Broadside Railguns become weaker than space marine portable lascannons (which of course remained just as effective as their vehicle versions), we had Devilfish still remaining overcosted, we had our army further drift from its core concept of combined, mobile arms to a static gunline.

 Cothonian wrote:
My level of disinterest in this new codex is unfathomable.

You felt the need to posst in here. You can't deny it. Some small part of you is either unhappy or terribly, secretly, interested.

It's ok. No one has to know. GW will direct ship the codex in a brown unmarked box straight to your door.

It's interesting 83% of the playerbase would rather GW hadn't done this, in varying degrees of severity.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Eldar and Tau got lots of love throughout 6th and 7th editions - it is nice to see the power swinging back again.

The Riptide got lots of love in 6th and 7th edition, not the Tau.

The Tau had Broadside Railguns become weaker than space marine portable lascannons (which of course remained just as effective as their vehicle versions), we had Devilfish still remaining overcosted, we had our army further drift from its core concept of combined, mobile arms to a static gunline.

It's a strange attitude that people have when they feel lile a factions "deserves" to be terrible because they were formerly over powered. You'd think people would understand that every codex being good is good for the game. It's a very childish attitude to say that a faction should be terrible because you got in a huff with them once.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Eldar and Tau got lots of love throughout 6th and 7th editions - it is nice to see the power swinging back again.

The Riptide got lots of love in 6th and 7th edition, not the Tau.

The Tau had Broadside Railguns become weaker than space marine portable lascannons (which of course remained just as effective as their vehicle versions), we had Devilfish still remaining overcosted, we had our army further drift from its core concept of combined, mobile arms to a static gunline.

I disagree due to the many OP formations had plus they could spam BS for troops. They were just not a fun army to play against back then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Eldar and Tau got lots of love throughout 6th and 7th editions - it is nice to see the power swinging back again.

The Riptide got lots of love in 6th and 7th edition, not the Tau.

The Tau had Broadside Railguns become weaker than space marine portable lascannons (which of course remained just as effective as their vehicle versions), we had Devilfish still remaining overcosted, we had our army further drift from its core concept of combined, mobile arms to a static gunline.

It's a strange attitude that people have when they feel lile a factions "deserves" to be terrible because they were formerly over powered. You'd think people would understand that every codex being good is good for the game. It's a very childish attitude to say that a faction should be terrible because you got in a huff with them once.

What I meant was actually what you just said. There is more external balance between race IMO.

What OP formations did the Tau have that did not include a Riptide as a main component?

Also, the reason they weren't fun was precisely due to GW making them a gunline force. If the Tau played as they should then they'd have been an army which was constantly moving, so opposing players would have to utilise movement to isolate and destroy individual elements of the Tau army. However, due to awful game design by GW which has consistently reduced the tactics of movement to basically "move into range and attack", that is not how the Tau actually played.

One was Hunter Cadre. Npbody would play Tau players in pickup games back then in those days. I haven't even mentioned Ghostkeels, Stormsurges or Taunar.

 Primark G wrote:
One was Hunter Cadre. Npbody would play Tau players in pickup games back then in those days.

A hunter cadre which would pretty much invariably have Riptides.

Nobody complained that Tau were boring to play against in 5th, or that crisis suits being able to JSJ was OP. All the complaints about OP Tau began with the introduction of the undercosted Riptide.

Nah it was basically everything about the army IMO. Remember my comment was in reference to 7th edition not sixth.

The "Gundamization" of Tau has been really unfortunate. It used to be they were a mechanized infantry skimmer tank army with Starship Troopers style power armor suits in support. Now they're increasingly a Big Robot army, the last 6 or so years have been about pushing stuff like the old Hammerheads out to make room for yet more Gundams.

And I say that as someone who has watched just about every Gundam


The Riptide was a really unhealthy addition for the faction I feel, it became a crutch for 4 years and many of the older units were made or otherwise became much less viable.

Agreed that is definitely the direction they have gone but now those units are overcosted.

 Primark G wrote:
Agreed that is definitely the direction they have gone but now those units are overcosted.

Or maybe appropriately costed for their capabilities, but it's not a good combination of capabilities. 2+ armor on a large model SHOULD be expensive.

Actually that is what I really meant. Tau players now spam commanders.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The "Gundamization" of Tau has been really unfortunate. It used to be they were a mechanized infantry skimmer tank army with Starship Troopers style power armor suits in support. Now they're increasingly a Big Robot army, the last 6 or so years have been about pushing stuff like the old Hammerheads out to make room for yet more Gundams.

And I say that as someone who has watched just about every Gundam


The Riptide was a really unhealthy addition for the faction I feel, it became a crutch for 4 years and many of the older units were made or otherwise became much less viable.

Not going to lie, a colony drop stratagem would be pretty legit.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
It's interesting 83% of the playerbase would rather GW hadn't done this, in varying degrees of severity.

sure and thats because 83% of the community would proably have prefered a codex for their army to come first.

the remaining 15% of the community are proably planning on building a custodes army. and honestly, if 15% of of the 40k population builds custodes as even a auxillery army? that's a pretty good chunk of people.

Assuming most people who are intreasted will build a smallish army. we can proably assume everyone will buy an HQ or two, a unit of the bikes and the terminators (most people already likely have the basic infantry)

BrianDavion wrote:
sure and thats because 83% of the community would proably have prefered a codex for their army to come first.

My concern is that a number of my friends who have returned to the game optimistically chose to play xenos factions assuming that they might actually get treated like contributing customers instead of bastard stepchildren.

They have been summarily disabused of this notion. This is Imperial/Chaos 40k, anyone else is playing a lesser version of the game.

I mean, Craftworld we're definitely not bastard step children and I saw plenty of Tau in tournaments in 7th so it's not like there is a tradition of that. Craftworld are out and strong again now too. Even the Dark Eldar people had some bright spots running Ynnari.

Or by Xenos did you mean Orks/Necrons? Cause that's a bit different then all Xenos.

Audustum wrote:
I mean, Craftworld we're definitely not bastard step children and I saw plenty of Tau in tournaments in 7th so it's not like there is a tradition of that. Craftworld are out and strong again now too. Even the Dark Eldar people had some bright spots running Ynnari.

Or by Xenos did you mean Orks/Necrons? Cause that's a bit different then all Xenos.

Eldar are in the best position, without a doubt. However, at the end of the day, you will be able to choose units from 2 *maybe* 3 codices to fill out your list.

Chaos will choose from 4-6 codices at least.

Imperial will choose from upwards of 10.

Everyone else will get 1, once GW is done building the Imperial/Chaos library of codices.

Thanks for playing.