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Pff, noobs, Plasma Inceptors all day with DA.

 Porphyrius wrote:
Can you provide any tournament stats that show Marines doing well with consistency--from tournaments that have occurred since other armies received their codexes? Because I've seen several users provide tournament results that suggest that Marines aren't exactly setting the world on fire.

I suppose I don't really have a dog in this race--I don't play competitively, and I don't have any plans to start doing so in the future--but it seems to me that the "Marines aren't very good" side has done a lot more to prove their case than the "Marines are great" side.

A: All the data shows that marines HAVE been consistently doing well, because they've had multiples lists in the top 10s of almost every tournament. They haven't gotten 1st as often as other armies, but that means that there ARE some codex that are stronger than it and that the game in unbalanced. But we all know that, that's not in question. Something being more powerful that marines is not "proof" that marines themselves are bad. If Space Marines WERE consistantly getting first then we'd be arguing if Space Marines were over powered. Marmatag's post spells this out beautifully: That Obliterators existing and being more powerful doesn't not mean Hellblasters are not bad. They are still good at what they do, which is what Primark is arguing, not "they are the best"

B: No one is arguing that "marines are great", I at least to think marines aren't top tier. But they're not trash tier, tacticals/terminators/whatever are not "THE WORST" and I surely believe that so much of that idea has little to do with statistic but in stead memetics: say "Tactical marines are the worst!" enough time and people will believe you, regardless of how true

Ultramarines have a stratagem to reroll 1s. Obliterators you have to roll for strength and armor penetration, not sure about number of shots though - on the other hand the plasma exterminator always has the same strength and armor penetration plus you can super charge it too.

What about non-ultramarines?

I thought this topic is about playing what’s most competitive for nilla SM.

Lets start with generic non-Guilliman marines, tools available to the basic codex, and see what we can do to accommodate the others. I'm really not familiar with BA or DA right now, but they share alot of units and equipment.

 Primark G wrote:
I thought this topic is about playing what’s most competitive for nilla SM.

There are many vanilla marines that aren't UM, and BA are 90% identical.

Just wanted to defend non DA plasma inceptors here (for DA it's a no brainer).

A min plasma inceptor squad compares favourably to the dreaded plasma scion squad. Let me elaborate on this point:

1) A min inceptor squad cost 2 times as much as a scion squad.
2) A min inceptor squad inflicts a number of plasma hits equal to 1,5 scion squads.

If we stop the comparison here, it would look that scions are better for the intended role of sacrificial drop, but let's go further:

3) To negate a plasma scion drop, you need to have your valuable stuff at least 3" behind your screens.
4) To negate a plasma inceptor drop, you need your valuable stuff to be at least 9" behind your screens.

This right here is a huge advantage to plasma inceptors, it is really really hard to defend against them. In addition:

5) Should the inceptors survive their own fire, they can charge. Since they fly, this is a really good move, because they need to be addressed or they will shoot again next turn.

This is a scenario that will hardly present more than 10% of games between overheat and charge distance, but it is indeed a nice bonus.

6) You will sometimes be able to deep strike in range of a captain equivalent model (thanks to the 18" range), at which point, since they don't die to overheat, they are also more durable than 2 scions squads to light firepower (10 T3 4+, against 6 T5 3+).

So, for about a 25% less damage per point, which is a big difference, you are gaining a greatest assurance of finding a good target for your squads and also you gain some interesting scenarios for additional value.
It's also one less deployment compared to 2 scion squads (and one less kill point).

I'm not going to say that they are strictly better, but they are valid sidegrades to plasma scions, and since plasma scions are considered a competitive choice...

Disclaimer: I did not consider scions officers in this, because they actually reduce the damage/point ratio of scions and increase even more the kill points and deployments.

Martel732 wrote:
How does the character change affect that list? Or does it?

I can field this list minus the assassins and Greyfax.

First, I just want to point out that this isn't my list, as it might have been a little unclear from my last post.

As for the characters, I don't think it's a big deal for the list, but it can add a little flexibility in positioning as the Assassins can block shots even when they're off doing their thing out of LOS etc.

If you're having issues with Marines, I think experimenting with this list as a basis could be a good idea, as it clearly works (having won a tournament against pretty stiff competition). IMO, it really shows the strengths of the Marines, in having a very flexible list with a great set of tools against pretty much any opposing army.

And since I know you're a BA fan, I think it can port quite well over to a BA army. I'd drop the Assassin detachment, the Apothecary and the Terminator Captain in favour of two units of plasma Inceptors, a Captain with the relic jump pack and thunder hammer, and Corbulo. You might have to squeeze for the last few points, but it should fit pretty well.

 Primark G wrote:
Ultramarines have a stratagem to reroll 1s. Obliterators you have to roll for strength and armor penetration, not sure about number of shots though - on the other hand the plasma exterminator always has the same strength and armor penetration plus you can super charge it too.

Obliterators are directly superior to plasmaceptors. By a wide margin. But we both know you have no idea the combos obliterators can take advantage of, or even their actual stats. You don't bother. Heck, you posted in a thread with someone detailing how crazy obliterators can get with full battle reports.

I'd love to see one of your battle reports, with some pics. But, well, it's easy to be on the internet and claim you're amazing and you totally win against the best players, but never show where your name shows up on the tournament rolls or give a single battle report.

Oblits are great but SM can't take them so they are moot to this discussion. It is the same as lamenting about a Leman Russ versus Vindicator. We must use what we have at our disposal.

 Primark G wrote:
Oblits are great but SM can't take them so they are moot to this discussion. It is the same as lamenting about a Leman Russ versus Vindicator. We must use what we have at our disposal.

That's the definition of a bad codex. Your options are inferior to other codices. That is the exact problem we are talking about. SM are poor because we can't take oblits or Russes. The options we have are straight up inferior, giving us a disadvantage on the tabletop.

Other armies can't have the guilliman's re-rolls, razorbacks or stormravens though.

 Blackie wrote:
Other armies can't have the guilliman's re-rolls, razorbacks or stormravens though.

.... isn't that what the post has been about, that SM really only have 1 build, and that is to use guilliman, razorback and stormravens?

He’s focusing on the things he doesn’t like.

Yeah but I don't understand why this post isn't short lived... Maybe it should just be retitled "What are competitive Ultramarine lists running?"

SM really only has 1 competitive build (drawn purely from SM codex), and its the razorback-stormraven spam with G-man buff, with another battalion with scouts and Tiggy for the CP.

For everything else in the codex, if a unit looks good on paper, it's absurdly overcosted.

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Oblits are great but SM can't take them so they are moot to this discussion. It is the same as lamenting about a Leman Russ versus Vindicator. We must use what we have at our disposal.

That's the definition of a bad codex. Your options are inferior to other codices. That is the exact problem we are talking about. SM are poor because we can't take oblits or Russes. The options we have are straight up inferior, giving us a disadvantage on the tabletop.

No it's not. We just have different stuff. Chaos doesn't have Razorbacks or Storm Ravens, we don't have Obliterators. That's all it means.

Ever find that IG list to post?

While I agree that using only using the space marine book leaves some builds a little weaker (I think DA + regular marines is pretty strong, I also think there are some combinations with BA that might be strong) I don't think it is fair to say that there is only 1 good build. I can think of a few decent (not GT winning necessarily, though that is player dependent, i.e. I'm not winning a GT with any list and would do equally well with some marine builds as I would with guard because they lend to my playstyle better).

That I think are probably not great are single chapter builds other than ultra marines (I'm not even convinced pure ultras is the strongest). Playing against guard, nids, admech, CSM. I see a lot more people picking and choosing sub-faction (chapter) to suit the roles of their units than I do with SM players, and I think this hamstrings the competitiveness of the book, as it restricts available stratagems, and does not take advantage of some units that are better with certain chapter tactics.

For instance Imperal fist Bolter inceptors are objectively better than pretty much every other variety (arguments can really only be made for Iron Hands, and White scars as even being in the discussion, maybe ultra marines using their stratagem)

Ignores cover on a chaff killing unit with -1 AP is strong, especially when some factions generate their own cover. It essentially makes you AP -2 against units in cover. IMO this is better than the other chapter tactics (Iron hands is a bit more durability, white scars would let you fall back shoot and charge, no other tactic does much for them). Imperial fists also have the bolter drill stratagem giving a unit with high volume of fire exploding 6s, to get a few more damage.

Instead I see things like ultra marines using these guys as ultra marines, they get what +1 LD and a stratagem to re-roll 1s which only really helps if you did not take an hq to give them that already. The only reason to do this is if you are taking only 1 detachment outside of taking RG.

Same with Ravenguard, no value at all to inceptors at 18" range they almost always lose -1 to hit if your opponent wants them to, and the strat does nothing.

Same with things like say Scout bikes, they are best as white scars as it gives them the ability to advance and fire with a stratagem.

etc.

 skchsan wrote:
Yeah but I don't understand why this post isn't short lived... Maybe it should just be retitled "What are competitive Ultramarine lists running?"

SM really only has 1 competitive build (drawn purely from SM codex), and its the razorback-stormraven spam with G-man buff, with another battalion with scouts and Tiggy for the CP.

For everything else in the codex, if a unit looks good on paper, it's absurdly overcosted.

I think you could build a decent list with Lias and Raptor Tactics.

 Blackie wrote:
Other armies can't have the guilliman's re-rolls, razorbacks or stormravens though.

Including most marine lists. What a great codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Oblits are great but SM can't take them so they are moot to this discussion. It is the same as lamenting about a Leman Russ versus Vindicator. We must use what we have at our disposal.

That's the definition of a bad codex. Your options are inferior to other codices. That is the exact problem we are talking about. SM are poor because we can't take oblits or Russes. The options we have are straight up inferior, giving us a disadvantage on the tabletop.

No it's not. We just have different stuff. Chaos doesn't have Razorbacks or Storm Ravens, we don't have Obliterators. That's all it means.

Ever find that IG list to post?

I'll get to it. Been stuck on my phone a lot.

Also, if that different stuff is inferior, it means a lot. I don't particularly care for ravens after the price hike. Not sure why they are being listed as a strong unit.

I'm sorta meh on Ravens too, but some people like 'em. I didn't like them because I tend to stay away from fliers and I can't stand the model. I warmed up to them right before the new Dark Reaper craze, which seems to make them more a liability than asset. Might convert something up for fun though.

 Primark G wrote:
Oblits are great but SM can't take them so they are moot to this discussion. It is the same as lamenting about a Leman Russ versus Vindicator. We must use what we have at our disposal.

I have read this entire thread and this post is the pinnacle of the disengenuous arguments in this thread. Most other factions have superior units to vanilla marines in greater quantity than vice versa. Primark G, you are a champion for mediocrity in this thread. The hero that Centurions have waited for to stand up to the naysayers. Once you started comparing Hellblasters to Obliterators and came to the conclusion that Hellblasters are good, despite worse weapons, CC, armour save, lack of invul, no deep strike, etc...well I can’t see you winning anyone over in this thread.

This thread has devolved into basically a consensus amongst the majority while a 3 person vocal minority put their fingers in their ears and scream denials. The POV of an ultramarine player, of course, skews the discussion a bit. Ultras get a stratagem that works well with Hellblasters, they have a powerful chapter tactic, and arguably the best warlord trait and relic in the book. Oh, and Guilliman.

I feel bad for vanilla marine players who don’t play Ultras or Raven Guard. For those players, their book is solidly in the bottom third of codex books that have been released so far. My BA might not be OP but they’re still doing a hell of a lot better than I did with vanilla marines (my anecdotal evidence to toss on the burn pile with yours). Of course, maybe marine players are all morons who need to Git Gud now they aren’t auto win (was that in the editions I missed? Because it certainly wasn’t the case in 3rd or 4th, and isn’t the case now. Maybe I missed the window of their dominance, I only started playing marines 6 months ago).

You are so wrong and put what I said out of its intended context. If you think Hellblasters are not competitive you are wrong. SM also have Devcents which are really good but a lot of points.

 Primark G wrote:
SM also have Devcents which are really good but a lot of points.

But being cost efficient is the very definition of competitive we're discussing about. Yes, grav cannons are good. Yes, lascannons are good. Is the platform good? No because it costs too much for what it brings to the table...

They are more points than an Oblit squad but around the same as a land raider and they work really well for Salamanders. Design your list accordingly.

 Primark G wrote:
They are more points than an Oblit squad but around the same as a land raider and they work really well for Salamanders. Design your list accordingly.

Then make ONE list that'll stomp the competition that has a focus on Devastator Centurions then. We will wait.

I have a friend who plays Salamanders and runs a squad of three Devcents buffed by an Apothecary and CM... they are very hard to kill in cover and blow stuff up every turn. I don't use them for my Ultramarine list.

 Primark G wrote:
I have a friend who plays Salamanders and runs a squad of three Devcents buffed by an Apothecary and CM... they are very hard to kill in cover and blow stuff up every turn. I don't use them for my Ultramarine list.

What else is in his army?

Five man Intercessor squads and some scouts for troops, Libby support for psy-power and denial. Not sure about the rest off the top of my head tbh. We played each other in an 850 point mini tourney so didn't see his 2k list yet. I will be playing him soon and post his list after the game.

Bremon wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Oblits are great but SM can't take them so they are moot to this discussion. It is the same as lamenting about a Leman Russ versus Vindicator. We must use what we have at our disposal.

I have read this entire thread and this post is the pinnacle of the disengenuous arguments in this thread. Most other factions have superior units to vanilla marines in greater quantity than vice versa. Primark G, you are a champion for mediocrity in this thread. The hero that Centurions have waited for to stand up to the naysayers. Once you started comparing Hellblasters to Obliterators and came to the conclusion that Hellblasters are good, despite worse weapons, CC, armour save, lack of invul, no deep strike, etc...well I can’t see you winning anyone over in this thread.

This thread has devolved into basically a consensus amongst the majority while a 3 person vocal minority put their fingers in their ears and scream denials. The POV of an ultramarine player, of course, skews the discussion a bit. Ultras get a stratagem that works well with Hellblasters, they have a powerful chapter tactic, and arguably the best warlord trait and relic in the book. Oh, and Guilliman.

I feel bad for vanilla marine players who don’t play Ultras or Raven Guard. For those players, their book is solidly in the bottom third of codex books that have been released so far. My BA might not be OP but they’re still doing a hell of a lot better than I did with vanilla marines (my anecdotal evidence to toss on the burn pile with yours). Of course, maybe marine players are all morons who need to Git Gud now they aren’t auto win (was that in the editions I missed? Because it certainly wasn’t the case in 3rd or 4th, and isn’t the case now. Maybe I missed the window of their dominance, I only started playing marines 6 months ago).

How is that post disingenuous? We don't get Obliterators, we do have to do something else.

"But we don't get unit X!" Is a stupid position to take in the first place. Lots of armies don't get "unit x". Everybody has to do something else.