What are competitive marine lists running?

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**Ushtarador**

Spoiler:

Nice post and interesting finds! Chapter approved dropped, and many tournaments in December probably didn't apply the changes yet, that would explain the difference. I'd be interested in the same data over the next few months as well though.

Just out of curiosity, could you run the data for Astra Militarum as well?

**Primark G**

Good to see some positivity still in this thread.

**Xenomancers**

Spoletta wrote:
So, i wanted to get more data about SM results in tournaments, since the big difference in results between December and January could mean that the sample was too small.

For this reason i looked at another parameter, which is a direct indication of the quality of a codex: number of lists that ended in the top half of the ladder/total number of lists submitted

While the top 4 results gives you an indication on how good are the top lists of a faction, the results in top half tells you how good the average list of that faction is. The closer this number is to 50%, the better the codex. Since not all factions have a codex out right now though, the SM results should be a bit higher than 50% for it to be healthy.

To give an example, 7th edition Nids would have a lot of results in top 4, but a small percentage in top half, because you either played that single build or you had no chances at all.

Naturally, the results in top half are many more than the results in top 4, so the data is more solid.

With that said, this is what i found out by compiling the results of all ITC tournaments of December and January:

January, 31 tournaments reported, 502 players total.
46 SM players, 27 of those in the top half - 58%

A good solid result, right about where it should be. This puts the SM above the average of the other factions by a solid margin.

Everyone happy right? Surely things couldn't be much different in December right?

December, 47 tournaments reported, 704 players total
75 SM players, 24(!!!!) of those in top half - 32% WHAAAAAT?!?!?

This is REALLY too big of a swing to be casual, something definitely has changed.

I have confirmed my hopinion, SM in December sucked badly, but for some reason after the December publications, they are now fine.

Note: Tournaments with less than 8 players were ignored.

The answer is fireraptors. CA does so very little for the space marine codex. Lynch pin units go up in price while some non competitive ones go down in price. The only interesting unit is a vindicator which went down to being about the same price as a AC Razor...I haven't seen any of those in Torny list though.

Seriosuly guys...stratagems are probably the most powerful part of the game right now and space marines stratagems are trash. Would space marines be competitive if they could...for example. Shoot twice with an infantry squad for 2 CP? or hand out -1 to hit? or 4++ saves? or deep strike any unit for 1 CP? IDK? What do you think?

**Insectum7**

Ushtarador wrote:

Spoiler:

Spoletta wrote:
So, i wanted to get more data about SM results in tournaments, since the big difference in results between December and January could mean that the sample was too small.

For this reason i looked at another parameter, which is a direct indication of the quality of a codex: number of lists that ended in the top half of the ladder/total number of lists submitted

While the top 4 results gives you an indication on how good are the top lists of a faction, the results in top half tells you how good the average list of that faction is. The closer this number is to 50%, the better the codex. Since not all factions have a codex out right now though, the SM results should be a bit higher than 50% for it to be healthy.

To give an example, 7th edition Nids would have a lot of results in top 4, but a small percentage in top half, because you either played that single build or you had no chances at all.

Naturally, the results in top half are many more than the results in top 4, so the data is more solid.

With that said, this is what i found out by compiling the results of all ITC tournaments of December and January:

January, 31 tournaments reported, 502 players total.
46 SM players, 27 of those in the top half - 58%

A good solid result, right about where it should be. This puts the SM above the average of the other factions by a solid margin.

Everyone happy right? Surely things couldn't be much different in December right?

December, 47 tournaments reported, 704 players total
75 SM players, 24(!!!!) of those in top half - 32% WHAAAAAT?!?!?

This is REALLY too big of a swing to be casual, something definitely has changed.

I have confirmed my hopinion, SM in December sucked badly, but for some reason after the December publications, they are now fine.

Note: Tournaments with less than 8 players were ignored.

Nice post and interesting finds! Chapter approved dropped, and many tournaments in December probably didn't apply the changes yet, that would explain the difference. I'd be interested in the same data over the next few months as well though.

Just out of curiosity, could you run the data for Astra Militarum as well?

Yeah, that's some nice work. Thanks!

**Xenomancers**

CA does literally nothing for space marines ^ see my above post.

It does reduce the cost of dark reapers though I believe.

**Ushtarador**

CA does literally nothing for space marines

It probably also helped indirectly by nerfing some units in other codices. <.<

Seriosuly guys...stratagems are probably the most powerful part of the game right now and space marines stratagems are trash. Would space marines be competitive if they could...for example. Shoot twice with an infantry squad for 2 CP? or hand out -1 to hit? or 4++ saves? or deep strike any unit for 1 CP? IDK? What do you think?

SM would probably become ridiculously overpowered and even you could win a tournament by spending those 2 CP. Doesn't mean the game would be balanced afterwards though.

**Martel732**

Ushtarador wrote:

I don't think DC are a viable counter to IG. They are too fragile.

I agree that they will crumble fast if you can't hide them behind terrain or get locked in cc - but if you manage to get stuck in cc and they get 2 charges with Honor the Chapter and +1A from the psychic power off, they will blow away most of the chaff single-handedly.

Not if your opponent sets up wisely. Opponents can make DC fail in the set up phase before dice are rolled.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Primark G wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Why? It's 5 posts up.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ushtarador wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I didn't want to get into that. I'm more interested in the solutions to the above IG list.

Sadly I don't have that many games under my belt yet, but specifically for this list I would base my strategy around 2 large squads of Death Company. Drop the first squad turn 1 and multicharge with DoA, then lock one infantry squad in CC without allocating any attacks to it. This will prevent them from being able to fall back, and your DC can't be shot at. Repeat turn 2 with the second squad and try to roll the flank. Lemartes will guarantee the charges go off, and our new captain smashypants can fly around an whack the manticores once they are exposed.

I don't claim there are easy ways to win against this army as it is very well built, but I definitely believe it's possible.

I don't think DC are a viable counter to IG. They are too fragile.

I see it now. Are you located in the SE region?

No, Ohio.

**Ushtarador**

Martel732 wrote:
Ushtarador wrote:

I don't think DC are a viable counter to IG. They are too fragile.

I agree that they will crumble fast if you can't hide them behind terrain or get locked in cc - but if you manage to get stuck in cc and they get 2 charges with Honor the Chapter and +1A from the psychic power off, they will blow away most of the chaff single-handedly.

Not if your opponent sets up wisely. Opponents can make DC fail in the set up phase before dice are rolled.

How would they do that? Your own Scouts can prevent the scout sentinels from moving and give you a free deep strike zone. The DC are supposed to clean the chaff first, that's the idea! Charging 3D6 is huge, and Honor the Chapter gives an additional 6" of movement to get stuck in CC.

**Martel732**

Put 5-7" between the first row of chaff and the second. You can pop honor of the chapter, but you can't get close enough to swing, just contact in the second consolidate. Then, they fall back and kill all your DC in one turn of concentrated fire. It usually only takes 1/3-1/2 of an IG list to murder 15 DC. And you will have done what? Killed 80pts of dudes?

**Ushtarador**

Martel732 wrote:
Put 5-7" between the first row of chaff and the second. You can pop honor of the chapter, but you can't get close enough to swing, just contact in the second consolidate. Then, they fall back and kill all your DC in one turn of concentrated fire. It usually only takes 1/3-1/2 of an IG list to murder 15 DC. And you will have done what? Killed 80pts of dudes?

The number of bodies in the list is enormous, I think most of the time the AM player won't be able to put sufficient space between his squads to prevent it completely if you roll sufficiently high (of course you may also roll not high enough, but that's the nature of the game).

I agree that the plan will crumble if you can't lock him in CC, but I believe the strategy works more often than not - especially because there's a good chance your opponent will not play perfectly either, and his job is much harder than yours.

**Marmatag**

Ushtarador wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Ushtarador wrote:

I don't think DC are a viable counter to IG. They are too fragile.

I agree that they will crumble fast if you can't hide them behind terrain or get locked in cc - but if you manage to get stuck in cc and they get 2 charges with Honor the Chapter and +1A from the psychic power off, they will blow away most of the chaff single-handedly.

Not if your opponent sets up wisely. Opponents can make DC fail in the set up phase before dice are rolled.

How would they do that? Your own Scouts can prevent the scout sentinels from moving and give you a free deep strike zone. The DC are supposed to clean the chaff first, that's the idea! Charging 3D6 is huge, and Honor the Chapter gives an additional 6" of movement to get stuck in CC.

You really think it's smart to spend the cost of DC to clear maybe 2 infantry squads? You're talking about - counting scouts - about a 300+ point investment to kill 80 points of models.

In what universe is that a logical approach?

**Spoletta**

Ushtarador wrote:

Spoiler:

Spoletta wrote:
So, i wanted to get more data about SM results in tournaments, since the big difference in results between December and January could mean that the sample was too small.

For this reason i looked at another parameter, which is a direct indication of the quality of a codex: number of lists that ended in the top half of the ladder/total number of lists submitted

While the top 4 results gives you an indication on how good are the top lists of a faction, the results in top half tells you how good the average list of that faction is. The closer this number is to 50%, the better the codex. Since not all factions have a codex out right now though, the SM results should be a bit higher than 50% for it to be healthy.

To give an example, 7th edition Nids would have a lot of results in top 4, but a small percentage in top half, because you either played that single build or you had no chances at all.

Naturally, the results in top half are many more than the results in top 4, so the data is more solid.

With that said, this is what i found out by compiling the results of all ITC tournaments of December and January:

January, 31 tournaments reported, 502 players total.
46 SM players, 27 of those in the top half - 58%

A good solid result, right about where it should be. This puts the SM above the average of the other factions by a solid margin.

Everyone happy right? Surely things couldn't be much different in December right?

December, 47 tournaments reported, 704 players total
75 SM players, 24(!!!!) of those in top half - 32% WHAAAAAT?!?!?

This is REALLY too big of a swing to be casual, something definitely has changed.

I have confirmed my hopinion, SM in December sucked badly, but for some reason after the December publications, they are now fine.

Note: Tournaments with less than 8 players were ignored.

Nice post and interesting finds! Chapter approved dropped, and many tournaments in December probably didn't apply the changes yet, that would explain the difference. I'd be interested in the same data over the next few months as well though.

Just out of curiosity, could you run the data for Astra Militarum as well?

That takes a lot of work actually, but my Overwatch team left me alone, so I may as well do it.

**Martel732**

Any marine list is likely to have scouts anyway. It's the pricetag on the DC that makes me hesitate. A lot. They are meqs that are likely to never be in cover. With a relatively worthless 6+ FNP.

**Marmatag**

Spoletta, please share where you're getting your data. Thanks

**Ushtarador**

You really think it's smart to spend the cost of DC to clear maybe 2 infantry squads? You're talking about - counting scouts - about a 300+ point investment to kill 80 points of models.

In what universe is that a logical approach?

In the universe where you keep one of the attacked squads alive and lock it in CC such that it can't fall back. Then you murder the squad in his assault phase, which leaves you free to set up another charge almost anywhere you want, which will murder most of his weak infantry units.

**Martel732**

Ushtarador wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Put 5-7" between the first row of chaff and the second. You can pop honor of the chapter, but you can't get close enough to swing, just contact in the second consolidate. Then, they fall back and kill all your DC in one turn of concentrated fire. It usually only takes 1/3-1/2 of an IG list to murder 15 DC. And you will have done what? Killed 80pts of dudes?

The number of bodies in the list is enormous, I think most of the time the AM player won't be able to put sufficient space between his squads to prevent it completely if you roll sufficiently high (of course you may also roll not high enough, but that's the nature of the game).

I agree that the plan will crumble if you can't lock him in CC, but I believe the strategy works more often than not - especially because there's a good chance your opponent will not play perfectly either, and his job is much harder than yours.

You can't lock anyone in CC in 8th. The core rules saw to that. Please elaborate.

**Insectum7**

You can if you surround them, but that's a tall order.

**Marmatag**

Ushtarador wrote:

You really think it's smart to spend the cost of DC to clear maybe 2 infantry squads? You're talking about - counting scouts - about a 300+ point investment to kill 80 points of models.

In what universe is that a logical approach?

In the universe where you keep one of the attacked squads alive and lock it in CC such that it can't fall back. Then you murder the squad in his assault phase, which leaves you free to set up another charge almost anywhere you want, which will murder most of his weak infantry units.

What you are describing is not possible. Units are free to fall back. It is not possible to lock up 10 models with 10 models.

If guard infantry could not fall back from melee what you describe might work. But only if you somehow could control which turn you killed them on.

**Martel732**

It basically doesn't happen. My IG opponents have even rerolled their own morale to zorf their own units if this is even a threat. I really wish I could throw away units like that. It's becoming clear to me that some posters are operating with opponents on different levels of skill here.

**Ushtarador**

Martel732 wrote:

You can't lock anyone in CC in 8th. The core rules saw to that. Please elaborate.

There's a nice diagram someone made: https://imgur.com/a/dAzuX (from this thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/342502-fight-phase-tactica/ )

The nice thing with jump pack units is that you can move over your opponents models and don't need to go around, and honor the chapter gives you another movement boost to get around. You can even honor the chapter to lock a unit you didn't declare as target in the assault phase, and since you're not allowed to attack it, it will survive for sure.

**Marmatag**

Insectum7 wrote:
You can if you surround them, but that's a tall order.

Show me how it is mathematically possible surround 10 models with 10 models, i'll wait.

Here are the 10 models you need to surround.

Legend:
X = a guardsman
Y = about 1.5 inches.

XYXYXYXYXYXYXYXYXYX

Please show me how your 10 DC will surround this.

It is challenging for me to surround this with 30 hormagants and i have a 6" pile in.

**Martel732**

Maybe 15 could surround the survivors, but they will zorf to battleshock. Do you mean the row behind the front row?

**Marmatag**

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe 15 could surround the survivors, but they will zorf to battleshock. Do you mean the row behind the front row?

You need to surround the models before you fight. Because if you leave ONE model an escape route, that is the model he will not pull. Players can choose which models die in the fight phase. If you don't make it into base contact with that model, he'll also pile-in such that he has an escape route.

So, show me how you can surround 10 models in a line with DC, so that there is not an opening for a single 25mm base guardsman to fall back in ANY direction. Not possible. I'll wait.

**Insectum7**

Marmatag wrote:
Ushtarador wrote:

You really think it's smart to spend the cost of DC to clear maybe 2 infantry squads? You're talking about - counting scouts - about a 300+ point investment to kill 80 points of models.

In what universe is that a logical approach?

In the universe where you keep one of the attacked squads alive and lock it in CC such that it can't fall back. Then you murder the squad in his assault phase, which leaves you free to set up another charge almost anywhere you want, which will murder most of his weak infantry units.

What you are describing is not possible. Units are free to fall back. It is not possible to lock up 10 models with 10 models.

If guard infantry could not fall back from melee what you describe might work. But only if you somehow could control which turn you killed them on.

It's definitely possible once casualties have been dealt, and I've seen it done a few times. But it's definitely not something you can rely on.

**Martel732**

This trick is MUCH easier to do to a character that you just never happen to allocate any swings to in the fight phase

. But, most of my opponents know this, too.

**Breng77**

Xenomancers wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
So, i wanted to get more data about SM results in tournaments, since the big difference in results between December and January could mean that the sample was too small.

For this reason i looked at another parameter, which is a direct indication of the quality of a codex: number of lists that ended in the top half of the ladder/total number of lists submitted

While the top 4 results gives you an indication on how good are the top lists of a faction, the results in top half tells you how good the average list of that faction is. The closer this number is to 50%, the better the codex. Since not all factions have a codex out right now though, the SM results should be a bit higher than 50% for it to be healthy.

To give an example, 7th edition Nids would have a lot of results in top 4, but a small percentage in top half, because you either played that single build or you had no chances at all.

Naturally, the results in top half are many more than the results in top 4, so the data is more solid.

With that said, this is what i found out by compiling the results of all ITC tournaments of December and January:

January, 31 tournaments reported, 502 players total.
46 SM players, 27 of those in the top half - 58%

A good solid result, right about where it should be. This puts the SM above the average of the other factions by a solid margin.

Everyone happy right? Surely things couldn't be much different in December right?

December, 47 tournaments reported, 704 players total
75 SM players, 24(!!!!) of those in top half - 32% WHAAAAAT?!?!?

This is REALLY too big of a swing to be casual, something definitely has changed.

I have confirmed my hopinion, SM in December sucked badly, but for some reason after the December publications, they are now fine.

Note: Tournaments with less than 8 players were ignored.
The answer is fireraptors. CA does so very little for the space marine codex. Lynch pin units go up in price while some non competitive ones go down in price. The only interesting unit is a vindicator which went down to being about the same price as a AC Razor...I haven't seen any of those in Torny list though.

Seriosuly guys...stratagems are probably the most powerful part of the game right now and space marines stratagems are trash. Would space marines be competitive if they could...for example. Shoot twice with an infantry squad for 2 CP? or hand out -1 to hit? or 4++ saves? or deep strike any unit for 1 CP? IDK? What do you think?

Space marines do have good stratagems, people just don't use them. Deepstrike for 1 CP, sure Ravenguard basically do this (same as alpha legion anyway), that said they have a ton of ways to deepstrike units without CP. IT is slightly different in that it is pre-game, but this has upsides and downsides. White scars bikers can advance, shoot and charge this is hugely powerful. They have the fight again stratagem, just like CSM, but no really great units to use it on.

Again the issue is people focus down to using 1 chapter and limit their options making their army worse. I honestly think a large part of the problem is people trying to out gunline gunline armies using space marines, or going for pure assault to clear screens. That said I think DA are going to be at least part of the strongest "Marine" build right now because the add a number of powerful elements.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
This trick is MUCH easier to do to a character that you just never happen to allocate any swings to in the fight phase . But, most of my opponents know this, too.

you can absolutely prevent things from falling back, you only need to make it so that one model cannot move away. It is easier said then done at times, but still possible.

**Ushtarador**

Marmatag wrote:

You need to surround the models before you fight. Because if you leave ONE model an escape route, that is the model he will not pull. Players can choose which models die in the fight phase. If you don't make it into base contact with that model, he'll also pile-in such that he has an escape route.

So, show me how you can surround 10 models in a line with DC, so that there is not an opening for a single 25mm base guardsman to fall back in ANY direction. Not possible. I'll wait.

Two possibilities off the top of my head:

1) Declare a charge against one unit, but use your charge move to get 3 models close to a second unit (that you didn't declare as target of your charge). Then lock the unit you didn't declare against, since it is not a target you are not allowed to attack it and the opponent can't remove the locked model.

2) Charge and wipe a unit, then consolidate towards another unit you didn't declare as target of your charge. Use honor the chapter to lock the unit, you can't attack it since it wasn't a target of your charge.

**Marmatag**

Dark Angels may do well.

Fire Raptors are also solid - there is no discounting this. They're pretty good. Guard artillery hits them on 6s with Tigurius on the field.

**Primark G**

Yes you can, if the enemy unit doesn’t have the Keyword Fly they can’t move through your models if you surround them.

**Marmatag**

Ushtarador wrote:
Marmatag wrote:

You need to surround the models before you fight. Because if you leave ONE model an escape route, that is the model he will not pull. Players can choose which models die in the fight phase. If you don't make it into base contact with that model, he'll also pile-in such that he has an escape route.

So, show me how you can surround 10 models in a line with DC, so that there is not an opening for a single 25mm base guardsman to fall back in ANY direction. Not possible. I'll wait.

Two possibilities off the top of my head:

1) Declare a charge against one unit, but use your charge move to get 3 models close to a second unit (that you didn't declare as target of your charge). Then lock the unit you didn't declare against, since it is not a target you are not allowed to attack it and the opponent can't remove the locked model.

2) Charge and wipe a unit, then consolidate towards another unit you didn't declare as target of your charge. Use honor the chapter to lock the unit, you can't attack it since it wasn't a target of your charge.

And then they fall back and you're not locked in combat.

Are you aware that players can freely leave combat with no penalty in 8th edition? During their movement phase, a player can declare that a unit is falling back and leave combat - without penalty.