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 Primark G wrote:
I have a friend who plays Salamanders and runs a squad of three Devcents buffed by an Apothecary and CM... they are very hard to kill in cover and blow stuff up every turn. I don't use them for my Ultramarine list.

What load-out does he use?

Go back and read my last post please. :-)

 Primark G wrote:
I have a friend who plays Salamanders and runs a squad of three Devcents buffed by an Apothecary and CM... they are very hard to kill in cover and blow stuff up every turn. I don't use them for my Ultramarine list.

You didn't actually do what I requested. Somehow I'm not shocked

Your last post doesn't say what weapons the Centurions have (i.e. their loadout).

 Primark G wrote:
I have a friend who plays Salamanders and runs a squad of three Devcents buffed by an Apothecary and CM... they are very hard to kill in cover and blow stuff up every turn. I don't use them for my Ultramarine list.

I dunno man, Centurions are crazy expensive. A base Dreadnought costs 10 points less than a base Centurion.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Bremon wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Oblits are great but SM can't take them so they are moot to this discussion. It is the same as lamenting about a Leman Russ versus Vindicator. We must use what we have at our disposal.

I have read this entire thread and this post is the pinnacle of the disengenuous arguments in this thread. Most other factions have superior units to vanilla marines in greater quantity than vice versa. Primark G, you are a champion for mediocrity in this thread. The hero that Centurions have waited for to stand up to the naysayers. Once you started comparing Hellblasters to Obliterators and came to the conclusion that Hellblasters are good, despite worse weapons, CC, armour save, lack of invul, no deep strike, etc...well I can’t see you winning anyone over in this thread.

This thread has devolved into basically a consensus amongst the majority while a 3 person vocal minority put their fingers in their ears and scream denials. The POV of an ultramarine player, of course, skews the discussion a bit. Ultras get a stratagem that works well with Hellblasters, they have a powerful chapter tactic, and arguably the best warlord trait and relic in the book. Oh, and Guilliman.

I feel bad for vanilla marine players who don’t play Ultras or Raven Guard. For those players, their book is solidly in the bottom third of codex books that have been released so far. My BA might not be OP but they’re still doing a hell of a lot better than I did with vanilla marines (my anecdotal evidence to toss on the burn pile with yours). Of course, maybe marine players are all morons who need to Git Gud now they aren’t auto win (was that in the editions I missed? Because it certainly wasn’t the case in 3rd or 4th, and isn’t the case now. Maybe I missed the window of their dominance, I only started playing marines 6 months ago).

How is that post disingenuous? We don't get Obliterators, we do have to do something else.

"But we don't get unit X!" Is a stupid position to take in the first place. Lots of armies don't get "unit x". Everybody has to do something else.

I think the point of the argument is that you cannot do something else effectively compared to other armies which can. This is a perfectly valid argument because the purpose of a competitive marine list is to be competitive against a range of armies, not just other marines. You have to look at the armies you are going to be facing constantly, I.E. the top tier armies, and seeing what they have and what you have. When you do that, you notice the glaring problems with your codex. There are sometimes combos and other ways around these problems but if there aren't than what is the solution? Git gud? Buy Bobby G?

@ MT -

The Devcents have las and missiles.

@ andys

Are you saying SM should be able to function like eldar or Nidz? Of course not but it could be taken that way for sure.

@Martel This thread has some very nice battle reports and list tweaks for Blood Angels: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340505-my-path-to-tournaments/

The guy seems to get decent results against quite competitive lists. People will probably theoryhammer that his opponents' lists sucked and that the results aren't valid, but anyway..

"Andrew Whittaker 1st Ovarall Warzone: Atlanta 2017
BRIGADE: Vostroyan – 1074 Points – 60 PL – 9 CP’s
HQ: 90 Points – 6 PL’s
Company Commander – Kurov’s Aquilla – 30 – 2 PL
Company Commander – 30 – 2 PL (Warlord – Grand Strategist)
Company Commander – 30 – 2 PL
ELITE: 285 Points – 15 PL
Veteran Squad (60) – Laz Cannon (20), Grenade Launcher x3 (15) – 95 Points – 5 PL
Veteran Squad (60) – Laz Cannon (20), Grenade Launcher x3 (15) – 95 Points – 5 PL
Veteran Squad (60) – Laz Cannon (20), Grenade Launcher x3 (15) – 95 Points – 5 PL
TROOP: 402 Points – 18 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
FAST ATTACK: 165 Points – 9 PL
Scout Sentinel (35) – Laz Cannon (20) – 55 Points – 3 PL
Scout Sentinel (35) – Laz Cannon (20) – 55 Points – 3 PL
Scout Sentinel (35) – Laz Cannon (20) – 55 Points – 3 PL
HEAVY SUPPORT: 132 Points – 12 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
OUTRIDER: Krieg – 353 Points – 24 PL – 1 CP
HQ: 80 – 3
Death Rider Commander (40) – Plasma Pistol (5) – 45 Points – 3 PL
ELITE: 204 – 6
Death Rider Command Squadron (68) – 68 Points – 6 PL
FAST ATTACK: 240 – 15
Death Rider Squadron (80) – 80 Points – 5 PL
Death Rider Squadron (80) – 80 Points – 5 PL
Death Rider Squadron (80) – 80 Points – 5 PL
SPEARHEAD: Cadian – 572 Points – 26 PL – 1 CP
HQ: 40 – 2
Primaris Psycher (40) – Relic of Lost Cadia – 40 Points – 2 PL
HEAVY SUPPORT: 532 – 24
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL"

Here's one that's not souped, but is pre-CA. I think. What absurdly low price is the Manticore in CA? Whatever. Here it is. I wouldn't even know where to start to fight this with marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ushtarador wrote:
@Martel This thread has some very nice battle reports and list tweaks for Blood Angels: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340505-my-path-to-tournaments/

The guy seems to get decent results against quite competitive lists. People will probably theoryhammer that his opponents' lists sucked and that the results aren't valid, but anyway..

There's some legitimacy there, but he did lose the Bobby G list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
@ MT -

The Devcents have las and missiles.

@ andys

Are you saying SM should be able to function like eldar or Nidz? Of course not but it could be taken that way for sure.

SM should be able to buy units that have different stats, but are equally cost effective.

SM should be able to buy units that have different stats, but are equally cost effective.

Space Marines are all about synergy these days. Hellblasters on their own are worse than Oblits, but hellblasters supported by Captains, Leutenants, Chapter Ancients and Apothecaries are amazing. You can't take units in a vacuum now less than ever, there are so many aura and buff effects going around - bluntly said, "The whole is greater than the sum of its part"..

There's some legitimacy there, but he did lose the Bobby G list.

That was pre-codex though.

I just read the reports. I didn't realize that.

 Thud wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I want to see the solutions.

Battalion
Primaris Captain w/ power fist and plasma pistol
Primaris Lieutenant w/ power sword

5 Intercessors w/ grenade launcher
5 Intercessors w/ grenade launcher
5 Intercessors w/ grenade launcher

Primaris Ancient
10 Reivers w/ bolt carbines, grav chutes

5 Hellblasters
5 Hellblasters

Battalion
Captain in terminator armour w/ storm shield (shield eternal) and thunder hammer
Lieutenant w/ combimelta, chainsword

5 Tactical Marines w/ plasma gun, sgt w/ combiplasma, chainsword
5 Tactical Marines w/ plasma gun, sgt w/ combiplasma, chainsword
5 Scouts w/ bolters

Apothecary

Drop Pod

Vanguard Detachment
Greyfax

Callidus
Culexus
Eversor



Ultramarines. Won Oz Masters in December, just before CA point changes, so you have 30 extra points to play with.

This is also a crap army.

This is also a crap army.

Quare to qualify this statement? It did win a tournament, so it must have done well for at least 3 games.

I didn't want to get into that. I'm more interested in the solutions to the above IG list.

Could you post the IG list again?

Martel732 wrote:
I didn't want to get into that. I'm more interested in the solutions to the above IG list.

Sadly I don't have that many games under my belt yet, but specifically for this list I would base my strategy around 2 large squads of Death Company. Drop the first squad turn 1 and multicharge with DoA, then lock one infantry squad in CC without allocating any attacks to it. This will prevent them from being able to fall back, and your DC can't be shot at. Repeat turn 2 with the second squad and try to roll the flank. Lemartes will guarantee the charges go off, and our new captain smashypants can fly around an whack the manticores once they are exposed.

I don't claim there are easy ways to win against this army as it is very well built, but I definitely believe it's possible.

edit:/ depending on the deployment he might be able to block first turn with the scout sentinels and you'll need to remove 1-2 of them first, but your troops should be able to weather the fire if there is some cover and LOS-blocking terrain.

Why? It's 5 posts up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ushtarador wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I didn't want to get into that. I'm more interested in the solutions to the above IG list.

Sadly I don't have that many games under my belt yet, but specifically for this list I would base my strategy around 2 large squads of Death Company. Drop the first squad turn 1 and multicharge with DoA, then lock one infantry squad in CC without allocating any attacks to it. This will prevent them from being able to fall back, and your DC can't be shot at. Repeat turn 2 with the second squad and try to roll the flank. Lemartes will guarantee the charges go off, and our new captain smashypants can fly around an whack the manticores once they are exposed.

I don't claim there are easy ways to win against this army as it is very well built, but I definitely believe it's possible.

I don't think DC are a viable counter to IG. They are too fragile.

Ushtarador wrote:

This is also a crap army.

Quare to qualify this statement? It did win a tournament, so it must have done well for at least 3 games.

It has 0 las cannons. It has a drop pod. 15 tactical marines (without even a heavy weapon). 3 crappy hq's. No Guilliman. High number of drops. 2 battalions for no reason - every space marine stratagem sucks. It's not even a space marine army - it has an inquisitor and 3 assassins. It includes not any competitive marine units...Tiggy/fire raptor....opps that's all of them.

Ushtarador wrote:

This is also a crap army.

Quare to qualify this statement? It did win a tournament, so it must have done well for at least 3 games.

Well if it IS a great list it'll have no problem topping consistently then.

Ushtarador wrote:

This is also a crap army.

Quare to qualify this statement? It did win a tournament, so it must have done well for at least 3 games.

It was a two-day invitational event for the best players in Australia. It beat the Australian ETC captain in the final round.

Of course, in Xenomancer's defense, it's a lot easier to whine on Dakka than it is to learn how to win competitive games of 40k.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Well if it IS a great list it'll have no problem topping consistently then.

I'm pretty sure no single list tops consistently right now, the game is too new and too many codices are dropping at a fast pace. It was great enough to win a tournament though, what else do you need?

It was a two-day invitational event for the best players in Australia. It beat the Australian ETC captain in the final round.

Of course, in Xenomancer's defense, it's a lot easier to whine on Dakka than it is to learn how to win competitive games of 40k.

Thanks for clarifying from my past ETCs I have seen a lot of lists where all 8 people in our team couldn't figure out how they worked, only to be completely blown away when we actually met them. Never believe you can judge the power of a list a good player has built until he explains the idea behind it.

This is why I didn't want to get into this.

I don't think DC are a viable counter to IG. They are too fragile.

I agree that they will crumble fast if you can't hide them behind terrain or get locked in cc - but if you manage to get stuck in cc and they get 2 charges with Honor the Chapter and +1A from the psychic power off, they will blow away most of the chaff single-handedly.

Ushtarador wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Well if it IS a great list it'll have no problem topping consistently then.

I'm pretty sure no single list tops consistently right now, the game is too new and too many codices are dropping at a fast pace. It was great enough to win a tournament though, what else do you need?

At the very least, most tournament lists will overall be the same theme. Around 80%-90% is gonna be the same.

It isn't like I'm asking for the moon. Every time something like this happens, it's your "proof" and then there's no follow-up to it. There's a reason I keep bringing up the CSM list in 6th/7th that topped with Rubric Marines and Ahriman. Flukes are just that. Flukes.

So, i wanted to get more data about SM results in tournaments, since the big difference in results between December and January could mean that the sample was too small.

For this reason i looked at another parameter, which is a direct indication of the quality of a codex: number of lists that ended in the top half of the ladder/total number of lists submitted

While the top 4 results gives you an indication on how good are the top lists of a faction, the results in top half tells you how good the average list of that faction is. The closer this number is to 50%, the better the codex. Since not all factions have a codex out right now though, the SM results should be a bit higher than 50% for it to be healthy.

To give an example, 7th edition Nids would have a lot of results in top 4, but a small percentage in top half, because you either played that single build or you had no chances at all.

Naturally, the results in top half are many more than the results in top 4, so the data is more solid.

With that said, this is what i found out by compiling the results of all ITC tournaments of December and January:

January, 31 tournaments reported, 502 players total.
46 SM players, 27 of those in the top half - 58%

A good solid result, right about where it should be. This puts the SM above the average of the other factions by a solid margin.

Everyone happy right? Surely things couldn't be much different in December right?

December, 47 tournaments reported, 704 players total
75 SM players, 24(!!!!) of those in top half - 32% WHAAAAAT?!?!?

This is REALLY too big of a swing to be casual, something definitely has changed.

I have confirmed my hopinion, SM in December sucked badly, but for some reason after the December publications, they are now fine.

Note: Tournaments with less than 8 players were ignored.

 Thud wrote:

Ushtarador wrote:

This is also a crap army.

Quare to qualify this statement? It did win a tournament, so it must have done well for at least 3 games.

It was a two-day invitational event for the best players in Australia. It beat the Australian ETC captain in the final round.

Of course, in Xenomancer's defense, it's a lot easier to whine on Dakka than it is to learn how to win competitive games of 40k.

It's a lot easier to play an army that isn't terrible.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Bremon wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Oblits are great but SM can't take them so they are moot to this discussion. It is the same as lamenting about a Leman Russ versus Vindicator. We must use what we have at our disposal.

I have read this entire thread and this post is the pinnacle of the disengenuous arguments in this thread. Most other factions have superior units to vanilla marines in greater quantity than vice versa. Primark G, you are a champion for mediocrity in this thread. The hero that Centurions have waited for to stand up to the naysayers. Once you started comparing Hellblasters to Obliterators and came to the conclusion that Hellblasters are good, despite worse weapons, CC, armour save, lack of invul, no deep strike, etc...well I can’t see you winning anyone over in this thread.

This thread has devolved into basically a consensus amongst the majority while a 3 person vocal minority put their fingers in their ears and scream denials. The POV of an ultramarine player, of course, skews the discussion a bit. Ultras get a stratagem that works well with Hellblasters, they have a powerful chapter tactic, and arguably the best warlord trait and relic in the book. Oh, and Guilliman.

I feel bad for vanilla marine players who don’t play Ultras or Raven Guard. For those players, their book is solidly in the bottom third of codex books that have been released so far. My BA might not be OP but they’re still doing a hell of a lot better than I did with vanilla marines (my anecdotal evidence to toss on the burn pile with yours). Of course, maybe marine players are all morons who need to Git Gud now they aren’t auto win (was that in the editions I missed? Because it certainly wasn’t the case in 3rd or 4th, and isn’t the case now. Maybe I missed the window of their dominance, I only started playing marines 6 months ago).

How is that post disingenuous? We don't get Obliterators, we do have to do something else.

"But we don't get unit X!" Is a stupid position to take in the first place. Lots of armies don't get "unit x". Everybody has to do something else.

I think the point of the argument is that you cannot do something else effectively compared to other armies which can. This is a perfectly valid argument because the purpose of a competitive marine list is to be competitive against a range of armies, not just other marines. You have to look at the armies you are going to be facing constantly, I.E. the top tier armies, and seeing what they have and what you have. When you do that, you notice the glaring problems with your codex. There are sometimes combos and other ways around these problems but if there aren't than what is the solution? Git gud? Buy Bobby G?

Seeing what other armies have is a good thing to do, obviously. Expecting to have the same/comparable stuff is barking up the wrong tree. Tyranids are a great example of this, they really dont have anything similar to Obliterators, but can accomplish a similar goal in a very different way. And sometimes armies aren't even attempting to accomplish similar goals. Armies can fight differently.

Looking at a single unit and pining for it is just stupid. Tyranids dont get Obliterators, but they don't whine about it.

Martel732 wrote:
Why? It's 5 posts up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ushtarador wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I didn't want to get into that. I'm more interested in the solutions to the above IG list.

Sadly I don't have that many games under my belt yet, but specifically for this list I would base my strategy around 2 large squads of Death Company. Drop the first squad turn 1 and multicharge with DoA, then lock one infantry squad in CC without allocating any attacks to it. This will prevent them from being able to fall back, and your DC can't be shot at. Repeat turn 2 with the second squad and try to roll the flank. Lemartes will guarantee the charges go off, and our new captain smashypants can fly around an whack the manticores once they are exposed.

I don't claim there are easy ways to win against this army as it is very well built, but I definitely believe it's possible.

I don't think DC are a viable counter to IG. They are too fragile.

I see it now. Are you located in the SE region?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ushtarador wrote:

At the very least, most tournament lists will overall be the same theme. Around 80%-90% is gonna be the same.

It isn't like I'm asking for the moon. Every time something like this happens, it's your "proof" and then there's no follow-up to it. There's a reason I keep bringing up the CSM list in 6th/7th that topped with Rubric Marines and Ahriman. Flukes are just that. Flukes.

What proof do you require then? The list has to make it to the top 10% in at least 90% of the tournaments, something like that? Again, I am very sure the meta will not settle enough for metrics like this in a long time, no list currently qualifies for this metric.

Martel732 wrote:
"Andrew Whittaker 1st Ovarall Warzone: Atlanta 2017
BRIGADE: Vostroyan – 1074 Points – 60 PL – 9 CP’s
HQ: 90 Points – 6 PL’s
Company Commander – Kurov’s Aquilla – 30 – 2 PL
Company Commander – 30 – 2 PL (Warlord – Grand Strategist)
Company Commander – 30 – 2 PL
ELITE: 285 Points – 15 PL
Veteran Squad (60) – Laz Cannon (20), Grenade Launcher x3 (15) – 95 Points – 5 PL
Veteran Squad (60) – Laz Cannon (20), Grenade Launcher x3 (15) – 95 Points – 5 PL
Veteran Squad (60) – Laz Cannon (20), Grenade Launcher x3 (15) – 95 Points – 5 PL
TROOP: 402 Points – 18 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
FAST ATTACK: 165 Points – 9 PL
Scout Sentinel (35) – Laz Cannon (20) – 55 Points – 3 PL
Scout Sentinel (35) – Laz Cannon (20) – 55 Points – 3 PL
Scout Sentinel (35) – Laz Cannon (20) – 55 Points – 3 PL
HEAVY SUPPORT: 132 Points – 12 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
OUTRIDER: Krieg – 353 Points – 24 PL – 1 CP
HQ: 80 – 3
Death Rider Commander (40) – Plasma Pistol (5) – 45 Points – 3 PL
ELITE: 204 – 6
Death Rider Command Squadron (68) – 68 Points – 6 PL
FAST ATTACK: 240 – 15
Death Rider Squadron (80) – 80 Points – 5 PL
Death Rider Squadron (80) – 80 Points – 5 PL
Death Rider Squadron (80) – 80 Points – 5 PL
SPEARHEAD: Cadian – 572 Points – 26 PL – 1 CP
HQ: 40 – 2
Primaris Psycher (40) – Relic of Lost Cadia – 40 Points – 2 PL
HEAVY SUPPORT: 532 – 24
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL"

Here's one that's not souped, but is pre-CA. I think. What absurdly low price is the Manticore in CA? Whatever. Here it is. I wouldn't even know where to start to fight this with marines.

Sweet, thanks. I'll give a go at it when my hands are more free.