What are competitive marine lists running?

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**Martel732**

Primark G wrote:
Yes you can, if the enemy unit doesn’t have the Keyword Fly they can’t move through your models if you surround them.

I guarantee you I have more practice at this than you. It's not as easy as you think. Especially if the opponent is savvy about casualty removal.

**Ushtarador**

And then they fall back and you're not locked in combat.

Are you aware that players can freely leave combat with no penalty in 8th edition? During their movement phase, a player can declare that a unit is falling back and leave combat - without penalty.

I'll post again the link to the diagram: https://imgur.com/a/dAzuX

@martel which is why you lock a unit that you don't attack, to prevent casualty removal.

**Marmatag**

Primark G wrote:
Yes you can, if the enemy unit doesn’t have the Keyword Fly they can’t move through your models if you surround them.

They don't need to move through your models, you cannot surround 10 models with 10 models.

**Primark G**

All you have to do is lock one model.

**Marmatag**

Ushtarador wrote:

And then they fall back and you're not locked in combat.

Are you aware that players can freely leave combat with no penalty in 8th edition? During their movement phase, a player can declare that a unit is falling back and leave combat - without penalty.

I'll post again the link to the diagram: https://imgur.com/a/dAzuX

@martel which is why you lock a unit that you don't attack, to prevent casualty removal.

This diagram is utter nonsense. 1. that isn't how people set up screens, 2. it's only 5 models, and 3. you must consolidate and pile in to get closer to the closest model. I doubt your jump from 2-3 is was legal.

Yes in the single most favorable circumstance you can keep a unit locked in combat for an extra turn. In practice, no.

**Insectum7**

Ushtarador wrote:

And then they fall back and you're not locked in combat.

Are you aware that players can freely leave combat with no penalty in 8th edition? During their movement phase, a player can declare that a unit is falling back and leave combat - without penalty.

I'll post again the link to the diagram: https://imgur.com/a/dAzuX

@martel which is why you lock a unit that you don't attack, to prevent casualty removal.

Oh, actually that appears to be easier than I thought. You don't even have to surround the unit in that case. Right on.

**Marmatag**

Insectum7 wrote:
Ushtarador wrote:

And then they fall back and you're not locked in combat.

Are you aware that players can freely leave combat with no penalty in 8th edition? During their movement phase, a player can declare that a unit is falling back and leave combat - without penalty.

I'll post again the link to the diagram: https://imgur.com/a/dAzuX

@martel which is why you lock a unit that you don't attack, to prevent casualty removal.

Oh, actually that appears to be easier than I thought. You don't even have to surround the unit in that case. Right on.

LOL.

Oh yeah! It's so easy! This thread is a comedy. It just doesn't work how he pictured it.

**Martel732**

Primark G wrote:
All you have to do is lock one model.

Easier said than done, especially if you have inflicted zero damage to them.

**Ushtarador**

This diagram is utter nonsense. 1. that isn't how people set up screens, 2. it's only 5 models, and 3. you must consolidate and pile in to get closer to the closest model. I doubt your jump from 2-3 is was legal.

Yes in the single most favorable circumstance you can keep a unit locked in combat for an extra turn. In practice, no.

Not knowing the rules of the game might explain your lack of success.

The diagram is perfectly valid, every model is closer to the closest enemy model after piling in. It also works in practice very often, as I have displayed in 2 simple examples, you just lack the creativity to use it.

**Martel732**

Insectum7 wrote:
Ushtarador wrote:

And then they fall back and you're not locked in combat.

Are you aware that players can freely leave combat with no penalty in 8th edition? During their movement phase, a player can declare that a unit is falling back and leave combat - without penalty.

I'll post again the link to the diagram: https://imgur.com/a/dAzuX

@martel which is why you lock a unit that you don't attack, to prevent casualty removal.

Oh, actually that appears to be easier than I thought. You don't even have to surround the unit in that case. Right on.

No, because opponents will take surrounded models as casualties. That diagram is skipping some steps. Also, don't forget that <fly> doesn't function in the assault phase.

**Marmatag**

here's the full diagram

https://imgur.com/a/G0ny9

**Ushtarador**

Martel732 wrote:

No, because opponents will take surrounded models as casualties. That diagram is skipping some steps.

This is true. The tactic of course only works if you can surround more models than you kill, or if you can allocate your attacks to another unit. Another such case would be if there is a character together with the unit, which can be left untouched but locked.

here's the full diagram

https://imgur.com/a/G0ny9

I have conceded about 4 times now that this tactic often fails when trying to lock a single unit that is the target of the charge. Stop being obtuse.

**Martel732**

I literally just said that about characters up above. It's almost like I assault a lot.

**Marmatag**

Ushtarador wrote:

This diagram is utter nonsense. 1. that isn't how people set up screens, 2. it's only 5 models, and 3. you must consolidate and pile in to get closer to the closest model. I doubt your jump from 2-3 is was legal.

Yes in the single most favorable circumstance you can keep a unit locked in combat for an extra turn. In practice, no.

Not knowing the rules of the game might explain your lack of success.

The diagram is perfectly valid, every model is closer to the closest enemy model after piling in. It also works in practice very often, as I have displayed in 2 simple examples, you just lack the creativity to use it.

Actually i have great success wrapping things. I play Tyranids. But i also fully understand the difficulty involved, because I do this every game in competitive events. Good players do not make this easy.

And no, it doesn't work in practice very often. At least not in tournaments. I mean it is possible it works for you. But good players can defend against it with ease.

**Ushtarador**

Marmatag wrote:
But good players can defend against it with ease.

Not against units that Fly, and not against Honor the Chapter. There are some significant differences between DC and gaunts that go beyond their armor save.

**Martel732**

BA don't have the numbers nids do.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ushtarador wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
But good players can defend against it with ease.

Not against units that Fly, and not against Honor the Chapter. There are some significant differences between DC and gaunts that go beyond their armor save.

Fly doesn't function in assault.

**Marmatag**

Ushtarador wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

No, because opponents will take surrounded models as casualties. That diagram is skipping some steps.

This is true. The tactic of course only works if you can surround more models than you kill, or if you can allocate your attacks to another unit. Another such case would be if there is a character together with the unit, which can be left untouched but locked.

here's the full diagram

https://imgur.com/a/G0ny9

I have conceded about 4 times now that this tactic often fails when trying to lock a single unit that is the target of the charge. Stop being obtuse.

Your diagram literally shows a single unit being the target of a charge. WTF are you even on about, this is getting ridiculous.

**Ushtarador**

Maybe you should try swapping armies a few times, play some Eldar or Nids against a competitive BA player, it might help you appreciate their strengths instead of only seeing their weaknesses

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Your diagram literally shows a single unit being the target of a charge. WTF are you even on about, this is getting ridiculous.

My diagram shows the concept of locking a unit in CC by locking a single model (which seems to be new for some readers). Apparently being a tournament player I am sure you can extend it to a case with multiple units on the field. Hell, I'll even waste 5 minutes of my time to draw another diagram for you if you like.

**Martel732**

Do mirror matches count?

Also, guardsmen are everyone's weakness atm. We can go down the Tyranid rabbit hole if you want, because I have no idea how to take them on with BA, either. They deploy and win.

**Insectum7**

Marmatag wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Ushtarador wrote:

And then they fall back and you're not locked in combat.

Are you aware that players can freely leave combat with no penalty in 8th edition? During their movement phase, a player can declare that a unit is falling back and leave combat - without penalty.

I'll post again the link to the diagram: https://imgur.com/a/dAzuX

@martel which is why you lock a unit that you don't attack, to prevent casualty removal.

Oh, actually that appears to be easier than I thought. You don't even have to surround the unit in that case. Right on.

LOL.

Oh yeah! It's so easy! This thread is a comedy. It just doesn't work how he pictured it.

why not?

**Martel732**

I don't think there's a way to get that BA model behind the UM line in the original diagram. The complete diagram is legit.

**Ordana**

Marmatag wrote:
Ushtarador wrote:
Marmatag wrote:

You need to surround the models before you fight. Because if you leave ONE model an escape route, that is the model he will not pull. Players can choose which models die in the fight phase. If you don't make it into base contact with that model, he'll also pile-in such that he has an escape route.

So, show me how you can surround 10 models in a line with DC, so that there is not an opening for a single 25mm base guardsman to fall back in ANY direction. Not possible. I'll wait.

Two possibilities off the top of my head:

1) Declare a charge against one unit, but use your charge move to get 3 models close to a second unit (that you didn't declare as target of your charge). Then lock the unit you didn't declare against, since it is not a target you are not allowed to attack it and the opponent can't remove the locked model.

2) Charge and wipe a unit, then consolidate towards another unit you didn't declare as target of your charge. Use honor the chapter to lock the unit, you can't attack it since it wasn't a target of your charge.

And then they fall back and you're not locked in combat.

Are you aware that players can freely leave combat with no penalty in 8th edition? During their movement phase, a player can declare that a unit is falling back and leave combat - without penalty.

Example situation.
The left most Y can't get out in his movement phase because there is no room for his base between the X models. So the unit can't fall back.

**Martel732**

Getting that second X in row 1 in place is very difficult. This is also illegal overall, since the X's are out of squad cohesion, which must be maintained even during assault.

**Ushtarador**

Another example with 2 units (distances may not be up to scale):

1) Declare charge only against the front unit (yes, this example assumes you roll high enough, or are able to move close to the front unit)
2) Move some of the charging models such that they end up closer to the back unit
3) Consolidate into the back unit, it can't be attacked as it was not the target of the charge
4) Wipe the front unit and remain locked in CC

**Marmatag**

Ordana wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Ushtarador wrote:
Marmatag wrote:

You need to surround the models before you fight. Because if you leave ONE model an escape route, that is the model he will not pull. Players can choose which models die in the fight phase. If you don't make it into base contact with that model, he'll also pile-in such that he has an escape route.

So, show me how you can surround 10 models in a line with DC, so that there is not an opening for a single 25mm base guardsman to fall back in ANY direction. Not possible. I'll wait.

Two possibilities off the top of my head:

1) Declare a charge against one unit, but use your charge move to get 3 models close to a second unit (that you didn't declare as target of your charge). Then lock the unit you didn't declare against, since it is not a target you are not allowed to attack it and the opponent can't remove the locked model.

2) Charge and wipe a unit, then consolidate towards another unit you didn't declare as target of your charge. Use honor the chapter to lock the unit, you can't attack it since it wasn't a target of your charge.

And then they fall back and you're not locked in combat.

Are you aware that players can freely leave combat with no penalty in 8th edition? During their movement phase, a player can declare that a unit is falling back and leave combat - without penalty.

X X Y X Y X Y Y Y X X Y
Example situation.
The left most Y can't get out in his movement phase because there is no room for his base between the X models. So the unit can't fall back.

The X models have left coherency in a huge way.

**Martel732**

Ushtarador wrote:
Another example with 2 units (distances may not be up to scale):

1) Declare charge only against the front unit (yes, this example assumes you roll high enough, or are able to move close to the front unit)
2) Move some of the charging models such that they end up closer to the back unit
3) Consolidate into the back unit, it can't be attacked as it was not the target of the charge
4) Wipe the front unit and remain locked in CC

How are those six models getting past the line? They can't teleport past them, they have to go all the way around. You can't move through other models, even in assault.

**Insectum7**

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think there's a way to get that BA model behind the UM line in the original diagram. The complete diagram is legit.

Since the movement just has to end "closer to the nearest enemy model" I don't see why you can't wrap the attacker around as long as you wind up "closer".

**Median Trace**

Martel732 wrote:

Fly doesn't function in assault.

I wonder if this is intentional or an oversight. It would be nice to have GW answer this definitively if they haven’t already. If is is an intentional choice, this is good to know. I assumed it did.

**Ordana**

Martel732 wrote:
Ushtarador wrote:
Another example with 2 units (distances may not be up to scale):

1) Declare charge only against the front unit (yes, this example assumes you roll high enough, or are able to move close to the front unit)
2) Move some of the charging models such that they end up closer to the back unit
3) Consolidate into the back unit, it can't be attacked as it was not the target of the charge
4) Wipe the front unit and remain locked in CC

How are those six models getting past the line? They can't teleport past them, they have to go all the way around. You can't move through other models, even in assault.

Jump packers can.

**Ushtarador**

How are those six models getting past the line? They can't teleport past them, they have to go all the way around. You can't move through other models, even in assault.

I'm sticking to the DC example, which assumes the charging unit can Fly. Of course it becomes much more difficult with non-flying units, but that's another discussion.

I don't see why Fly wouldn't work in Assault? Nobody disputed this in any game I played so far.