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They dont flat out say it, but they mention stormboys getting behind

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/10/07/assault-phase-tactics/

I mean i've look again and again, nothing. I actually never herd this till now, i;ve seen many tournament games (twitch) where they pile in and fly over. For me its a no brainer but i'm trying to not be 100% on anything to give the benefit of doubt and they have said 1 thing, but faq'ed it another lol.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
They dont flat out say it, but they mention stormboys getting behind

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/10/07/assault-phase-tactics/

Ah, i want to read this. I get a 503, can someone share

Its on their normal FLG website under Tactics Corner tab at the top in 40k tactics.

Aha. Well that changes a lot for me and negates some of my experiences.

Now all you need to do is charge with your death company and not kill the squad. Rather difficult when you're rolling 40 dice wounding on 2s. You expect to sweep a squad of 10. I guess you could opt to use basic CCW rather than a chainsword so you lose an attack.

And marines without 3d6 charge distance are kind of left in the same boat as before, though, since a 9" charge is already incredibly difficult.

 Marmatag wrote:
Now all you need to do is charge with your death company and not kill the squad. Rather difficult when you're rolling 40 dice wounding on 2s. You expect to sweep a squad of 10. I guess you could opt to use basic CCW rather than a chainsword so you lose an attack.

And marines without 3d6 charge distance are kind of left in the same boat as before, though, since a 9" charge is already incredibly difficult.

You declare a charge on 1 unit and then also contact a 2nd. since you didn't declare a charge you can't attack it, meaning it will always stay alive to lock.

Ofc it requires this to be possible.
And yes, I would never bet on any DS unit that can't re-roll its charge or has some other means of getting a greater then 50% success rate.

A straight reroll to charge makes the Deep Strike prospect 50%. So this is basically Black Templars Chapter Tactics, reroll from Shrike on Jump Units, Asterion next to anyone, and...thats actually it off the top of my head.

Veil of Time affects charge range (roll).

 Primark G wrote:
Veil of Time affects charge range (roll).

I should've clarified I was looking at hitting more than one unit at once.

If it increased your odds that’s a good thing right?

So... the point of the last 4 pages is that... a competitive SM list should always include jump pack marines?

No.

 skchsan wrote:
So... the point of the last 4 pages is that... a competitive SM list should always include jump pack marines?

Maybe not, but all those assault marines on the shelves are getting wet at the idea.

 skchsan wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
SM also have Devcents which are really good but a lot of points.

But being cost efficient is the very definition of competitive we're discussing about. Yes, grav cannons are good. Yes, lascannons are good. Is the platform good? No because it costs too much for what it brings to the table...

If cost effectiveness was the only metric of competitive, intercessors would be one of the best troop choices in the game, if not THE best. At 18 points for what is 2x marines in toughness and melee, per wound you're getting something that's as cheap as an SoB. They're massively resilient to small arms fire (more so in cover), and are cheap enough that firing anti tank is not effective either. With the aux grenade launcher they're better in damage at 13"+ range, and under that it's really only a slight improvement for the two bolters (.33 vs .44 vs MEQ)

I'll toss in some of my thoughts about competitive Marine aside from Guilliman and Razorbacks:

1) Auras: I feel this is the single most important feature in a Marine list. Space Marine units on their own are lackluster and relatively expensive, but they have easy access to some of the strongest auras in the game. I start every list by including a Captain (optional Chapter Master Stratagem) and a Lieutenant. The Lieutenant might be the single most amazing model in the codex, every other army would kill to get this reroll so cheaply. These 2 models buff the output of all surrounding units by 30% or more, in shooting and melee, this is INSANE!
Similarly, the Chapter Ancient with the relic banner is ridiculous value when standing near the right squads.What's more, he evens out the opponent's alpha strike, because 2/3s of your killed army gets to shoot back, while the opponent's stuff just dies.
Another more specific example is the Repulsor: while too expensive and vulnerable on it's own, it becomes a significant threat when buffed by a chapter master and Lieutenant, and surprisingly hard to kill when supported by Tigurius with Might of Heroes and -1 to hit.

2) Scouts: They are among the units with the most powerful deployment options in the game. They can deny your opponents scout move, they can deny infiltrators, their deployment can't be denied by enemy units - and you don't even have to win a roll-off. They can also tie up shooting units turn 1 and force your opponent to deploy accordingly, and contribute well if left unchecked.

3) Power Armour and Cover: Going from a 3+ to a 2+ doubles the survivability of your basic troops against small arms - this is much more significant than going from a 6+ to a 5+. Marines benefit more from cover than most armies, and it makes a big difference. Of course, this does not apply on tables without cover, but hopefully updated cover rules will makes this more general.

4) Predators: They are a very solid fire support option, relatively durable and with very good damage output - especially when supported by a Captain, Lieutenant and Killshot Stratagem. This again ties back into the first point, Marines are all about buffing and synergy nowadays!


Also, a general thought: People dismiss Guilliman and Razorbacks and claim that only Ultramarines are competitive, but not the whole codex - does this in reverse mean that the Eldar codex sucks if we remove Alaitoc, Hemlocks and Dark Reapers, because that's the main units we see in tournaments? Very disingenuous I must say.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

If cost effectiveness was the only metric of competitive, intercessors would be one of the best troop choices in the game, if not THE best. At 18 points for what is 2x marines in toughness and melee, per wound you're getting something that's as cheap as an SoB. They're massively resilient to small arms fire (more so in cover), and are cheap enough that firing anti tank is not effective either. With the aux grenade launcher they're better in damage at 13"+ range, and under that it's really only a slight improvement for the two bolters (.33 vs .44 vs MEQ)

It's one of the primary metrics. Would manticores be worth taking if it costed 350 pt per model? In terms of pure stats, intercessors are indeed the best troop choice. The problem is that they cost too nuch for what they bring to the table because vulnerability to plasmas is a real thing. Currently, anything below 2W is a glasscannon of varying offensive capabilities.

I think youre misunderstanding the notion of cost effectiveness with simple stats per point calculation.

 skchsan wrote:
It's one of the primary metrics. Would manticores be worth taking if it costed 350 pt per model? In terms of pure stats, intercessors are indeed the best troop choice. The problem is that they cost too nuch for what they bring to the table because vulnerability to plasmas is a real thing. Currently, anything below 2W is a glasscannon of varying offensive capabilities.

I think youre misunderstanding the notion of cost effectiveness with simple stats per point calculation.

What if you manage to kill your opponent's plasma guns before they get into effective range, because Intercessors shoot further? What if your opponent gears more towards anti-horde because Tyranids and AM are more prevalent in the meta, and does not have a ton of D2 guns anymore?

It's never that simple. The effectiveness of Intercessors on the tabletop would surprise you, they are much more versatile than I ever thought.

There's always going to be plague launchers and overcharge plasma in the game. And you don't need that many of those things to wreck a primaris list good.

Ushtarador wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
It's one of the primary metrics. Would manticores be worth taking if it costed 350 pt per model? In terms of pure stats, intercessors are indeed the best troop choice. The problem is that they cost too nuch for what they bring to the table because vulnerability to plasmas is a real thing. Currently, anything below 2W is a glasscannon of varying offensive capabilities.

I think youre misunderstanding the notion of cost effectiveness with simple stats per point calculation.

What if you manage to kill your opponent's plasma guns before they get into effective range, because Intercessors shoot further? What if your opponent gears more towards anti-horde because Tyranids and AM are more prevalent in the meta, and does not have a ton of D2 guns anymore?

It's never that simple. The effectiveness of Intercessors on the tabletop would surprise you, they are much more versatile than I ever thought.

Matthew 7:6

Again, intercessors are a massive gamble. If your opponent has an above average number of multiple wound weapons, you are really hosed.

Ushtarador wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
It's one of the primary metrics. Would manticores be worth taking if it costed 350 pt per model? In terms of pure stats, intercessors are indeed the best troop choice. The problem is that they cost too nuch for what they bring to the table because vulnerability to plasmas is a real thing. Currently, anything below 2W is a glasscannon of varying offensive capabilities.

I think youre misunderstanding the notion of cost effectiveness with simple stats per point calculation.

What if you manage to kill your opponent's plasma guns before they get into effective range, because Intercessors shoot further? What if your opponent gears more towards anti-horde because Tyranids and AM are more prevalent in the meta, and does not have a ton of D2 guns anymore?

It's never that simple. The effectiveness of Intercessors on the tabletop would surprise you, they are much more versatile than I ever thought.

Ok, let's bring up pre-nerf Stormraven - why did it work in top tier lists? Well,
1. Good baseline stats - it has fire power equaling a landraider with upgrades along with comparable stats.
2. Negative modifier mitigation - PotMS allows it to ignore modifers from moving - and since its a flyer, it always has to move (unless it hovers). So this is key.
3. Improved defensive capabilities - it has innate -1 to hit from hard to hit.
4. Targets always in range - it has high mobility, which gets you in range for all of your weapons.
5. Low comparable cost - all this in a package that costs little less than a landraider - it is the least expensive of its kind dealing similar damage & table top presence.

Essentially, you had a flying tank. This is what is referred to when many of us talk about unit effectiveness. Matter of fact, you'll see that top tier list makers often have an algorithm for determining the EFF. Ratio. Whether this seems arbitrary and shallow for you, it's a real thing.

Efficiency is different from tactics. Efficiency is different from terrain usage. Efficiency is different from actual game play because it discusses the PROBABLE CAPABILITIES of the units and not their actual performance - because their performance is based on CHANCE.

Martel732 wrote:
Again, intercessors are a massive gamble. If your opponent has an above average number of multiple wound weapons, you are really hosed.

Of course, if your opponent has a list that is well tailored to counter your list, you are hosed - that's nothing new though? The only thing I really see hurting the viability of Primaris right now are Reapers, which I am sure will receive a nerf one way or other. Also, Intercessors are really cheap now, and usually the multidamage weapons have to be used to shoot the hard targets (vehicles, dreads, etc.) first. If you focus on removing the opponents' multidamage weapons as fast as possible, you will get ahead.

Yes of course everything in a Marine list can be dealt with, that's why it's a balanced game! It doesn't mean that everything marines can field sucks though. Every other faction can argue along exactly the same lines: "Magnus actually really sucks because my RG opponent infiltrates 10 hellblasters and nukes him turn 1, waste of points". That's what a lot of posts in this thread sound like.

@skchsan The pre-nerf Stormraven was absolutely imbalanced though, no unit should be that effective. Also, this definition feels like a very academical discussion that does not translate to the actual game.

IG spamming some autocannons ends the party real fast. There's a lot more threats than reapers. And don't forget plasma, wbich is already quite common. No tailoring needed.

Martel732 wrote:
IG spamming some autocannons ends the party real fast. There's a lot more threats than reapers. And don't forget plasma, wbich is already quite common. No tailoring needed.

There's that defeatist attitude again. It seems like you're hellbent on only seeing the opponents counters to your units without considering your units strengths, and the tactics that might be used to mitigate their weakness. As long as your opponent has a realistic chance of beating your army you just give up. You very much remind me of the guy at our club that conceded a game when he saw the terrain on the table, just because it was distributed fairly...

Martel732 wrote:
Again, intercessors are a massive gamble. If your opponent has an above average number of multiple wound weapons, you are really hosed.

You don't use LoS blocking terrain?

I'm also drawing from all the whippings ive put on primaris marines with a few plasma guns, a couple pred autocannons and the sg. Don't forget manticores and basilisks cause multiple wounds, too.

Bottom line: i dont like paying for regular marines, but i like paying for intercessors even less right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Again, intercessors are a massive gamble. If your opponent has an above average number of multiple wound weapons, you are really hosed.

You don't use LoS blocking terrain?

That only gets you so far and actually hinders marines against ig.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ushtarador wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
IG spamming some autocannons ends the party real fast. There's a lot more threats than reapers. And don't forget plasma, wbich is already quite common. No tailoring needed.

There's that defeatist attitude again. It seems like you're hellbent on only seeing the opponents counters to your units without considering your units strengths, and the tactics that might be used to mitigate their weakness. As long as your opponent has a realistic chance of beating your army you just give up. You very much remind me of the guy at our club that conceded a game when he saw the terrain on the table, just because it was distributed fairly...

I never give up; especially against other marines. Primaris is an easy easy matchup.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
SM also have Devcents which are really good but a lot of points.

But being cost efficient is the very definition of competitive we're discussing about. Yes, grav cannons are good. Yes, lascannons are good. Is the platform good? No because it costs too much for what it brings to the table...

If cost effectiveness was the only metric of competitive, intercessors would be one of the best troop choices in the game, if not THE best. At 18 points for what is 2x marines in toughness and melee, per wound you're getting something that's as cheap as an SoB. They're massively resilient to small arms fire (more so in cover), and are cheap enough that firing anti tank is not effective either. With the aux grenade launcher they're better in damage at 13"+ range, and under that it's really only a slight improvement for the two bolters (.33 vs .44 vs MEQ)

Imo the honor of best troops choice goes to Tyranid Warriors. The Deathspitter is awesome, they have 3 wounds, fearless, 3 attacks, and multiple further weapon upgrades if you want.

Ushtarador wrote:
There's that defeatist attitude again. It seems like you're hellbent on only seeing the opponents counters to your units without considering your units strengths, and the tactics that might be used to mitigate their weakness. As long as your opponent has a realistic chance of beating your army you just give up.

What he's getting at is that certain units/armies have a universal counter-to-counter to nearly everything you can throw at them. Again, we're bordering the discussion of tactics again, but when we take the classic combo of infantry squad bubble wrap/board control with 4~6 manticores firing 120' range heavy 2d6 S10 AP-2 D3 with no-LOS needed, it effectively nullifies any potential counters to this strat/composition. Mind you, 6 manticores and 4 infantry squads, which would grant you 100% deployment zone coverage in standard deployment maps, only cost ~1000 points. Now THAT'S efficient!

 skchsan wrote:
What he's getting at is that certain units/armies have a universal counter-to-counter to nearly everything you can throw at them. Again, we're bordering the discussion of tactics again, but when we take the classic combo of infantry squad bubble wrap/board control with 4~6 manticores firing 120' range heavy 2d6 S10 AP-2 D3 with no-LOS needed, it effectively nullifies any potential counters to this strat/composition. Mind you, 6 manticores and 4 infantry squads, which would grant you 100% deployment zone coverage in standard deployment maps, only cost ~1000 points. Now THAT'S efficient!

I don't know, 6 Manticores shooting at Raven Guard tactical marines in cover kill 5.8 Marines on average per turn. 4 infantry squads add maby 1 marine more. Over the course of a whole game, your 1000 points manage to kill about 400 points of Tacticals, assuming they don't shoot back. Not very efficient now...

But they have kept you in cover the whole time and forced you to choose Raven Guard. Advantage still goes to IG.

BA power units are rarely in cover and that's what I'm worried about.