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In your mind.

Having used Shining Spears (full disclosure: pre-Codex) I have to say that they're a glass cannon, and live about halfway between being OP and being worthless depending heavily on what deployment type is rolled, who goes first, and what the matchup is.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not planning for dark reaper. The hammer is coming.

There is no evidence of that.

Guard have been broken since release, to the point where some armies are flat out unplayable in the meta *because* of IG.

-Conscripts
-Storm Ravens
-Assbacks
-Changeling
-Magnus (maybe not enough)
-Malefic Lords
-Super Chicken
-Bobby G (maybe not enough)
-Smite Spam

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that GW is targeting units/abilities that are not good for balance.

Looks like he is under the radar for now.

Agreed. SS are a quintessential glass cannons (especially the ynarri version)

What sets the apart from marine glass cannon variants is they are capable of earning back their points in the turn they are on the table before they are obliterated (oh, and that exarch is insane) vs marines who struggle to earn back half before they are returned to the emperor's embrace.

So can a squad of five plasma interceptors.

Median Trace wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not planning for dark reaper. The hammer is coming.

There is no evidence of that.

Guard have been broken since release, to the point where some armies are flat out unplayable in the meta *because* of IG.

-Conscripts
-Storm Ravens
-Assbacks
-Changeling
-Magnus (maybe not enough)
-Malefic Lords
-Super Chicken
-Bobby G (maybe not enough)
-Smite Spam

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that GW is targeting units/abilities that are not good for balance.

And yet only one of those is guard despite them being utterly dominant from start to finish in 2017

 Marmatag wrote:

Median Trace wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not planning for dark reaper. The hammer is coming.

There is no evidence of that.

Guard have been broken since release, to the point where some armies are flat out unplayable in the meta *because* of IG.

-Conscripts
-Storm Ravens
-Assbacks
-Changeling
-Magnus (maybe not enough)
-Malefic Lords
-Super Chicken
-Bobby G (maybe not enough)
-Smite Spam

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that GW is targeting units/abilities that are not good for balance.

And yet only one of those is guard despite them being utterly dominant from start to finish in 2017

The commissar was also nerfed. Overnerfing in my opinion. And the Manticores had a price-increasem

Fair. The commissar conscript nerf was significant.

Prior to that you'd see AM as the top 4/5 lists in every big event.

Still, i'm not convinced a reaper nerf is coming, and guard are still out of control. From the bottom up IG has a design flaw of being incredibly survivable with insane board control and top notch firepower.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Sigh, there are plenty of things that have good shooting in marines, are mobile, and don't suffer -1 to hit. Way more than most guard armies honestly.

Inceptors
Helblasters
Bikes
Scout bikes
Aggressors are decently mobile

You just pay out the ass for them. Except the scout bikes.

I don't consider any of them terribly expensive for their damage output. But scout bikes are definitely the most efficient. They might be the best chaff clearing unit in the game.

Shining spears put them to literal shame though.

For clearing chaff they are worse in almost every possible way. They are 6 points more have fewer shots, the same number close combat attacks, are slower(if you run white scars). A unit of 9 scout bikers with a storm bolter sarge puts out 58 S4 shots (or 40 S 4 and 18 S 5), and 19 S 4 CC attacks. As white scars they can advance (22") shoot and charge (stratagem). Easy to
Get re-rolls for them. The same points in shining spears (7) puts out 28 S 4 shots and 7 s6 shots at 6" range, cannot advance and charge at 12" they lose shooting, at more than 12" they have no shooting. On the charge they are better in the assault against chaff, but not by a ton. But how does 35 shots at 6" compare to 58 at 12".

Yeah Shining Spears are way overrated.

It is worth noting that outside of 12" those guys drop from 60 dice down to 20. T5 4+ isn't terrible though. I could see this having a real place in some lists that didn't want to bring Grey Knights.

True, but getting them within 12" of a chaff screen is trivial. And comparing them to shining spears outside 12" 20 shots is better than 0. They are better point for point than GK at clearing chaff. Especially because they can charge more easily, and don't risk deepstrike retaliation. T5 4+
And 2 wounds is also more durable than T4 3+
And 1 wound. It all depends on list though, my list has a lot of 2 wound models with T 5 so if you are gunning for the scout bikes, then you aren't shooting other models that may be more dangerous.

 Primark G wrote:
Yeah Shining Spears are way overrated.

They are more point efficient and survivable vs any target than plasma inceptors even giving the inceptors free re-roll of 1's to hit..

3x 3x shining spears exarch with star spear @ 285 points vs 5x plasma ceptors @ 295 (free re-roll of 1s)
-18 wounds t4, 4++ vs 10 t5 no invuln save (win spears)
-vs t3 5+ 1w - spears win 27 to 10
-vs t4 3+ 1w - spears win 19 to 7
-vs t5 3+ 1w - spears win 16 to 7
-vs t6 3+ (overcharge) - spears win 1w 12 2w 21 to 1w 7 2w 13
-vs t7 3+ (overcharge) - monster or vehicles spears win 26 to 13
-vs t8 3+ (overcharge) - monster or vehicles spears win 22 to 10

So if spears are overrated what are plasma ceptors? Given the spears are point for point twice as effective against all targets but t6, 3+ non-monster/vehicle (where they are only 70% more effective)..

Well except range matters. Seems like you are also always including a charge for those spears, so overwatch matters. I'm not saying they are bad, but they are very different units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also inceptors can more easily get cover.

Do you really need three squads though? Seems like overkill.

 Primark G wrote:
Do you really need three squads though? Seems like overkill.

Something something something filling out FOC something something something complete

They aren’t that good to take three squads and eldar has some good choices for that slot.

 Primark G wrote:
They aren’t that good to take three squads and eldar has some good choices for that slot.

Like Shining Spears are a good choice in that slot!

They don't really have a bad Fast Attack slot though.

Why are you discussing eldar in a SM thread? Who cares?

Read my sig and you probably have your answer lol

Exactly.

Martel732 wrote:
"Andrew Whittaker 1st Ovarall Warzone: Atlanta 2017
BRIGADE: Vostroyan – 1074 Points – 60 PL – 9 CP’s
HQ: 90 Points – 6 PL’s
Company Commander – Kurov’s Aquilla – 30 – 2 PL
Company Commander – 30 – 2 PL (Warlord – Grand Strategist)
Company Commander – 30 – 2 PL
ELITE: 285 Points – 15 PL
Veteran Squad (60) – Laz Cannon (20), Grenade Launcher x3 (15) – 95 Points – 5 PL
Veteran Squad (60) – Laz Cannon (20), Grenade Launcher x3 (15) – 95 Points – 5 PL
Veteran Squad (60) – Laz Cannon (20), Grenade Launcher x3 (15) – 95 Points – 5 PL
TROOP: 402 Points – 18 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
FAST ATTACK: 165 Points – 9 PL
Scout Sentinel (35) – Laz Cannon (20) – 55 Points – 3 PL
Scout Sentinel (35) – Laz Cannon (20) – 55 Points – 3 PL
Scout Sentinel (35) – Laz Cannon (20) – 55 Points – 3 PL
HEAVY SUPPORT: 132 Points – 12 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
OUTRIDER: Krieg – 353 Points – 24 PL – 1 CP
HQ: 80 – 3
Death Rider Commander (40) – Plasma Pistol (5) – 45 Points – 3 PL
ELITE: 204 – 6
Death Rider Command Squadron (68) – 68 Points – 6 PL
FAST ATTACK: 240 – 15
Death Rider Squadron (80) – 80 Points – 5 PL
Death Rider Squadron (80) – 80 Points – 5 PL
Death Rider Squadron (80) – 80 Points – 5 PL
SPEARHEAD: Cadian – 572 Points – 26 PL – 1 CP
HQ: 40 – 2
Primaris Psycher (40) – Relic of Lost Cadia – 40 Points – 2 PL
HEAVY SUPPORT: 532 – 24
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL"

Here's one that's not souped, but is pre-CA. I think. What absurdly low price is the Manticore in CA? Whatever. Here it is. I wouldn't even know where to start to fight this with marines.

The more I looked at that list the more I liked it. Thanks again for posting it.

I came up with something unexpected when just looking at numbers, so here's my "math based" list.

Plasma Annihilator, SPACE MARINES, Any vanilla codex chapter
SPEARHEAD
Captain, Storm Bolter 76 -- (Make Chapter Master w/ Stratagem)
Company Ancient 63 (Take Relic Banner)
Devatsators (7) w/Plasma Cannons (4), Cherub 180
Devatsators (7) w/Plasma Cannons (4), Cherub 180
Devatsators (7) w/Plasma Cannons (4), Cherub 180
Devatsators (7) w/Plasma Cannons (4), Cherub 180
Devatsators (7) w/Plasma Cannons (4), Cherub 180

SPEARHEAD
Lieutenant, Storm Bolter 62
Devatsators (7) w/Plasma Cannons (4), Cherub 180
Devatsators (7) w/Plasma Cannons (4), Cherub 180
Devatsators (7) w/Plasma Cannons (4), Cherub 180
Devatsators (7) w/Plasma Cannons (4), Cherub 180
Devatsators (7) w/Plasma Cannons (4), Cherub 180

1999

Deploy opposite the castle in the middle of the board, banner in the center and all Plasma Cannon models in it's radius. You win on drops so you have a slight "go-first" advantage. If you don't have to move, firing every Plasma Cannon at just plain guardsmen (even in cover) each squad averages (3 x 2 x .888 x .96) + (2 x 2 x .96 x .96) = 8.8 Ten Squads giving you a whopping 88 Guardsman casualties. Moving reduces effectiveness somewhat, only killing 72 Guardsmen. Darn. You don't have to overcharge for normal Guardsmen either. But if you decide to overcharge, any casualties you take you get a 66% chance to fire again because of the banner. In his turn, casualties you take also mean you get a 66% chance to fire again. Didn't bother with doing the bolter math because I think the Plasma Cannons alone make a point.

A quick alteration would be to make the Dev squads 5 man, and take a bunch of Scouts to deploy up front to rapid fire bolters up there and try to catch those Manticores in CC past the piles of bodies.

. . .

A list more my usual style would involve 3 similar Dev Squads in Drop Pods with the Characters. My math on that gets them an average of 30 wounds against Manticores on the drop, which is solid Imo. The rest of the army would be Tacs and Scouts, possibly the Tacs in Rhinos because I get utility out of ramming them forward into assault and blocking LOS. But a Squad or two of Scouts can net you some more Bolter kills alongside the Devastators who would also be firing Bolters at regular Guardsmen. A good first strike would land you about 400 points ahead going into his first turn, roundabouts 3 Manticores and a Guardsmen Squad or two, depending on how deployment and dice shake out. The important takeaway for me is the big PC Devaststor Squads and the Banner for an opening move. The 36" Range helps them get to the Manticores, the Pods get you LOS and avoid getting shot, the Banner makes them a pain to remove, and if you can drop them in cover you're in a fine spot.

Quick comparison: A lot of people like Hellblasters at their 35 points, but the Dev Plasma Cannon model comes in at 34 and does nearly twice the damage, the only difference being the Hellblasters have a -4 save. The Devs can also get the ablative wounds, Cherub, have 6" more range and a Signum for +1 to hit for one model. They can also go in Pods.

I admire your work there Insectum, but that plasma list is hideous.

One thing I like about it is Guilliman is actually detrimental to the list, the Plasma Cannon wound rolls are good enough that you're better off without him. As opposed to the Assault Cannon spam type that requires his rerolls to handle vehicles since they only wound on 5s.


It does 118 wounds to T7 3+ sv vehicles in it's first round of fire.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Having used Shining Spears (full disclosure: pre-Codex) I have to say that they're a glass cannon, and live about halfway between being OP and being worthless depending heavily on what deployment type is rolled, who goes first, and what the matchup is.

Considering you can deepstrike them for 1 CP. Plus a single spell called protect gives them a 2+/3++ whilst having 2 wounds and being 31 points? They are about as far away from a glass cannon unit than any unit in the game. They are basically getting a free 4++ save even without a buff from a psyker...how exactly does this make them glass at all?

That list would get rocked so hard it's not even funny.

Step 1: Bring on plasma devastators
Step 2: Spend 2 turns moving them into position.
Step 3: You died during step 2, but let's assume you didn't.
Step 4: Start shooting what you can with plasma!
Step 5: Control no objectives.
Step 6: Lose the firefight because plasma devs in cover still get out-shot by guard, and require LOS.

40 plasma devastators.
(4/6)+(1/6)*(4/6) = hiting on 3s, rerolling 1s. Assuming they never pay the penalty of moving.
(5/6)+(1/6)*(5/6) = wounding on 2s, rerolling 1s.
2 shots per devastator.

Each devastator kills 1.5 guardsmen, for a total estimate of 60 guardsmen dying to plasma turn 1. Assuming you don't move. And assuming you're in range to shoot them.

Then the artillery fires back. And you are effectively tabled. You will lose about 10 devastator marines a turn to the manticores alone if they're not in cover.

 Primark G wrote:
Yeah Shining Spears are way overrated.

Do you secretly play eldar or something? You think hellblasters are great and shining spears are over rated?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Yeah Shining Spears are way overrated.

Do you secretly play eldar or something? You think hellblasters are great and shining spears are over rated?

He's just saying that to sound off. They're not OP like Dark Reapers but saying they're overrated is silly, they are one of the better units in a top-tier codex.

What is this thread:

First what it is not - a discussion on competitive units to use in a SM army.

What it is:

a) complain that SM are not competitive
b) discuss competitive units for other armies
c) berate posters that are positive about SM
d) dis good advice how to play SM competitively