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changemod wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

changemod wrote:

Requizen wrote:
/sigh, and I was just getting used to not seeing Riptides...

It's okay, they still don't seem very good, just not outright useless.

So about where everything in the game should be? Sounds good to me. Anything it needs now will be a small tweak.

This is a bit of a hair split, but "not very good but not completely useless" is distinctly -below- where it would be ideal for everything to sit.

This is funny.

Kneejerk BS, but funny.

 Red Corsair wrote:
This is funny.

Kneejerk BS, but funny.

This is rude.

Assumes I'm an idiot who can't parse a changed unit correctly, but rude.

Particularly as I didn't express an extreme or emotional reaction in the first place. I'm just telling a guy not to worry as despite the buff the unit has just gone from "So underpowered it's not worth looking at" to "Nothing amazing, but usable."

You can be dramatic and assume things if you want. All I did was read your posts at face value.

Saying a unit is not garbage but not useless, is laughable, and does demonstrate a kneejerk response.

Edit: I could demonstrate how that leak makes riptides extremely powerful, but then I am sure you would dig into that hole deeper and we would derail the thread.

I will say, I was being more lighthearted in my ribbing before and you shouldn't take every response on the internet as an all out attack. Sorry if you took it as flat rudeness though.

 Red Corsair wrote:
You can be dramatic and assume things if you want. All I did was read your posts at face value.

Saying a unit is not garbage but not useless, is laughable, and does demonstrate a kneejerk response.

Then by all means provide an argument rather than insults.

Where are you even getting dramatic from?

Your posts...

BTW your providing zero evidence yourself there mate.

bork’an is looking better and better. But I still think multiple detachments of various septs will be the way to go!

Actually looking into things I'd got the point cost off by a chunk by doing the leaks from memory, so I'd tentatively class the riptide as decent rather than slightly underpowered.

It isn't back to being a super powerful must take, but that's mostly due to markerlights being a lot poorer and the lack of a way to apply high BS markers in 8th.

Guyver 3 wrote:
bork’an is looking better and better. But I still think multiple detachments of various septs will be the way to go!

This guy gets it

changemod wrote:
Actually looking into things I'd got the point cost off by a chunk by doing the leaks from memory, so I'd tentatively class the riptide as decent rather than slightly underpowered.

It isn't back to being a super powerful must take, but that's mostly due to markerlights being a lot poorer and the lack of a way to apply high BS markers in 8th.

Fireblade 2+ marker hit
Skyray got WAY better. That's now 2 more 3+ rerolling 1 shots.
In a pinch 1 CP for +d3 more.

So working with 2 units you probably already have and not trying to take more lights your easily at 4 if not 5 right there.

Tau should not be lighting up the entire enemy army every turn, if that were the case what a stupid army design. Just drop the lights entirely and make everything +1 BS and slightly more expensive. It's fine the way it is.

Every list will have at least 1 riptide. at 244 or 274 a unit that has a14W T7 2+ 3++ with 1 save rerolled a turn(CP) AND savior protocols that thing is almost unkillable. Meanwhile even without lights but an ethereal nearby your getting 3.5 S9 ap -3 3damage hits a turn. Invest in ATS and it's -4.... They are basically a predator annihilator with more wounds a better save and a fething invuln.

EDIT: BTW walking back your comment because you rushed to judgement is the definition of Kneejerk rersponse...

Mutiple detachments is basically the way GW is expecting people to go. The detachments are basically just buffs for groups of units - only in fluff are they linked to a subfaction group with some identity and colour scheme.
But in practical game terms I suspect many players will use multiple groups together

 Nevermind wrote:

Guyver 3 wrote:
bork’an is looking better and better. But I still think multiple detachments of various septs will be the way to go!

This guy gets it

I’m actually not sure about this. There don’t seem to be huge numbers of units that don’t benefit most from either borkan or Tau (I’m limiting apostrophes today).

Stealths are one exception. If you want stealths then you want them to be able to advance and fire with no penalty. Or you just want them to be Tau. Borkan is no use for them, anyway.

Overall I think I like The Tau sept best. Focused fire is great and being hard to charge is, too.

A key argument for all being from one sept is that all your buffs, notably including For the Greater Good, work on everything. I’m pretty sure you’d want that to be the case. Trouble is, that makes the weaker or more specialised options even worse. You won’t want a sept that gives you marginally better idiot if it means that the rest of your army effectively gets nothing.

I wish there was a version of shadowsun in her ghostkeel.

 FirePainter wrote:
Y'varhas are now crazy with getting to reroll a dice on the number of flamer gaks

And people say FW is totally fine and "balanced"

It will be even funnier when this Sept trait goes on top of Ta'unar Supremacy Armour. The short range of half of its arms will turn into long range, to match its main gun and allowing for even more screening, negating its only weakness. The reroll die stratagem will also the Ta'unar far better than it was, mere 1 pitiful CP to ensure titan grade weapons never whiff random die roll? Can you say Bonk'ers Sept?

And people say FW is totally fine and "balanced"

Eh, it's no different than the GW side of things. Y'Vahras are paper thin for 400+ points. Yeah, they tear new ones across the battlefield, but on their own, they're no more durable than a 100-pt tank. You have to work pretty hard with drone placement just to keep them alive long enough to see a round of shooting if you don't go first. With a 14" flamer and 18" move, they'll be getting focused down really fast.

I agree that Borkan is pretty easily the best Sept, but let's not get too emotional about the reroll strat. It's basically an extremely limited version of the 1-die reroll that every army already has and has had since the incept of 8th. It's situationally useful and certainly not outrageously powerful.

Without discussing the overall power of the upcoming Tau or it's place in the meta, it looks to me like the GW studio isn't really sure about the design philosophy of the Tau.

The hammerhead didn't need to get cheaper it needed to be upgunned significantly. It should be pretty premium in points and it should be as scary as a triple lascannon predator but faster.

They don't seem to have put effort into the iconic units but rather have replaced them with their "newer iconic" units. Stormsurge for the hammerhead, riptide for the crisis suit and ghostkeel for the stealthsuit .

They are much more durable then a 100 point tank mate. Objectively so. That said I agree with you that their current cost hardly makes them broken.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Without discussing the overall power of the upcoming Tau or it's place in the meta, it looks to me like the GW studio isn't really sure about the design philosophy of the Tau.

They never really have been.

The hammerhead didn't need to get cheaper it needed to be upgunned significantly. It should be pretty premium in points and it should be as scary as a triple lascannon predator but faster.

They don't seem to have put effort into the iconic units but rather have replaced them with their "newer iconic" units. Stormsurge for the hammerhead, riptide for the crisis suit and ghostkeel for the stealthily.

I wouldn't say the Stormsurge or Ghostkeel have 'replaced' the other units. Stealths still have a place(they'd have more of a place if Burst Cannons counted for Volley Fire--but that's neither here nor there) that Ghostkeels can't really match and the Stormsurge, while 'better' than a Hammerhead also has a significant drawback in that it's a really big target.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Without discussing the overall power of the upcoming Tau or it's place in the meta, it looks to me like the GW studio isn't really sure about the design philosophy of the Tau.

The hammerhead didn't need to get cheaper it needed to be upgunned significantly. It should be pretty premium in points and it should be as scary as a triple lascannon predator but faster.

They don't seem to have put effort into the iconic units but rather have replaced them with their "newer iconic" units. Stormsurge for the hammerhead, riptide for the crisis suit and ghostkeel for thestealthily.

IDK man, hammer head aside, skyrays seem filthy. Feeding someone 6 krak missiles first turn seems like a pretty amazing way of anti tanking your enemy for their points. Devilfish is also crazy cheap for it's level of gun and 12 wounds. Not quite a wave serpent but also much cheaper.

 Red Corsair wrote:
They are much more durable then a 100 point tank mate. Objectively so. That said I agree with you that their current cost hardly makes them broken.

Well, okay, fair enough. They don't really have that much staying power over a standard Marine tank, but they are certainly noticeably tougher with their 5++ and nova reactor bonuses and whatnot. As we both agreed, however, they are not at all broken because of how crazy expensive they are. You pay through the nose for that flamer of doom!

As for the Skyray, I'm hopeful Seekers stay the same cost, so you'd get a solid first-turn threat for ~150pts. I don't know that I'd take it over just having a bunch of seekers on other units, but it's worth considering.

MilkmanAl wrote:

And people say FW is totally fine and "balanced"

Eh, it's no different than the GW side of things. Y'Vahras are paper thin for 400+ points. Yeah, they tear new ones across the battlefield, but on their own, they're no more durable than a 100-pt tank. You have to work pretty hard with drone placement just to keep them alive long enough to see a round of shooting if you don't go first. With a 14" flamer and 18" move, they'll be getting focused down really fast.

I agree that Borkan is pretty easily the best Sept, but let's not get too emotional about the reroll strat. It's basically an extremely limited version of the 1-die reroll that every army already has and has had since the incept of 8th. It's situationally useful and certainly not outrageously powerful.

Well, the re-roll is a very popular stratagem for a reason, and to have an "extra" one in each shooting phase is powerful. People'd use it twice each shooting phase in a shooty army if they could all the time.

And the main reason the Y'vahra isn't using its fancy deep strike a lot is the fact it cannot use its 8" super-flamer the turn it drops. 14" plasma flamers make deep striking a lot more .... casual.

And the main reason the Y'vahra isn't using its fancy deep strike a lot is the fact it cannot use its 8" super-flamer the turn it drops. 14" plasma flamers make deep striking a lot more .... casual.

Absolutely, but that requires skipping a shooting phase. Assuming you're not crippled by wounds, 18" move is probably sufficient to get you in range of something worth flaming without the need to reposition.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:

And people say FW is totally fine and "balanced"

Eh, it's no different than the GW side of things. Y'Vahras are paper thin for 400+ points. Yeah, they tear new ones across the battlefield, but on their own, they're no more durable than a 100-pt tank. You have to work pretty hard with drone placement just to keep them alive long enough to see a round of shooting if you don't go first. With a 14" flamer and 18" move, they'll be getting focused down really fast.

I agree that Borkan is pretty easily the best Sept, but let's not get too emotional about the reroll strat. It's basically an extremely limited version of the 1-die reroll that every army already has and has had since the incept of 8th. It's situationally useful and certainly not outrageously powerful.

Well, the re-roll is a very popular stratagem for a reason, and to have an "extra" one in each shooting phase is powerful. People'd use it twice each shooting phase in a shooty army if they could all the time.

And the main reason the Y'vahra isn't using its fancy deep strike a lot is the fact it cannot use its 8" super-flamer the turn it drops. 14" plasma flamers make deep striking a lot more .... casual.

I couldn't tell you the last game I played where my opponent didnt regret deepstriking in general. In a game littered with 4point models, anti deployment set ups are novel.

The reroll stratagem really shines on fusion commanders and the various rail guns where the borkan trait is less useful.

I can see myself taking a detachment of 1 commander 3 rail broadsides to take advantage of the sacae trait

 Red Corsair wrote:


I couldn't tell you the last game I played where my opponent didnt regret deepstriking in general. In a game littered with 4point models, anti deployment set ups are novel.

Well, the Y'vahra deep strikes late-game. It usually starts on the board and relies on drones to survive the alpha strike. But that fancy skyleap-style deepstrike it does have was basically never used because you effectively skipped 2 shooting phases, not 1, with its most potent weapon.

Not saying it'll be the new Dark Reapers, but it makes a thing it has a somewhat more viable option and it has been a popular choice for Tau armies as an index army already, probably the next-best thing they had besides straight-up commander spam. It might be weak compared to Nurgle cheese-fests, but an already strong (for Index Tau) unit getting bascially tailor-made buffs all-round with the codex can't be bad.

The new Tau are trash tier. I know many people are suspecting this but don’t want to say it yet. At this point the only competitive unit is the Y’vahra, but it’s a FW unit and therefore banned more often than not. Even so, it’s most likely getting the nerf hammer when FW does the codex update.

Honestly these stratagems are hilarious. For 1 cp one unit gets an inv save on top of paltry 6 bonus shots, but still takes a mortal wound. Or better yet, for 1 cp one unit can become Catachan for one turn! Great!

The power levels for GW releases truly go in a roller coaster. Where’s the ”shoot again” stratagem? Where’s the RG/Admech/AL infiltrate gem? Where’s the -1 to be hit passive? Where’s the Ynnari passive? Where’s ANYTHING that’s actually competitive level?

Is someone here seriously impressed by hunter killer missiles now? Something that even the most casual Imperium players don’t bother to use? Or are we supposed to be wowed that a 250p Riptide can do 3 wounds total to an Eldar flyer with the nova HBC? Did anyone mathhammer any of this crap? We live in a meta where this garbage just does not cut it.

Sorry.

I mean your comparing whats good to THE biggest problem of all the releases to date, the eldar codex with it's 5 ways to modify your chance to hit. This isn't a Tau only issue, in fact everything in the game except reapers have this issue.

Occam's razor says fix the minus to hit mechanic problem. FAQ modifiers to never stack and suddenly the game looks completely different.

Then there is the fact that 40k was never intended to be played as competition, not justifying that position but stating it because anyone that thinks this is ever going to change should stop wasting their time and find another game to play competitively.

Chess uses identical pieces on an even board yet white always goes first, thus rendering it imbalanced. How people can continue to believe an abstract game with home made tables and measurements done by eye played with a few hundred diferent pieces that can be brought in some thousands of combos each with a plethora of options per unit, per model can somehow be balanced and fair enough for every faction to play evenly never ceases to amaze me.

Even if we changed the modifier system and deleted Dark Reapers these new Tau would still be an army with no soup potential, no psychic buffs and no psychic defense whatsoever, no staying power to win on objectives alone, no special deployment options like SM Scouts to get board control, no alternative win conditions from assault units tying up the enemy army, and finally weapon and stat profiles that mathhammer worse than many existing units in the game. In short, a one dimensional non starter.

 Therion wrote:
Even if we changed the modifier system and deleted Dark Reapers these new Tau would still be an army with no soup potential, no psychic buffs and no psychic defense whatsoever, no staying power to win on objectives alone, no special deployment options like SM Scouts to get board control, no alternative win conditions from assault units tying up the enemy army, and finally weapon and stat profiles that mathhammer worse than many existing units in the game. In short, a one dimensional non starter.

Save your rants for when everything is out.

 Therion wrote:
The new Tau are trash tier. I know many people are suspecting this but don’t want to say it yet.

Nah. We're just level headed enough to not jump off a cliff before we've played with the book.

Honestly these stratagems are hilarious. For 1 cp one unit gets an inv save on top of paltry 6 bonus shots, but still takes a mortal wound. Or better yet, for 1 cp one unit can become Catachan for one turn! Great!

Or they get to be Vostroyan AND Catachan for a turn. Glass half full or seppuku..hmm

The power levels for GW releases truly go in a roller coaster. Where’s the ”shoot again” stratagem? Where’s the RG/Admech/AL infiltrate gem? Where’s the -1 to be hit passive? Where’s the Ynnari passive? Where’s ANYTHING that’s actually competitive level?

Gee, I don't know. Maybe there's other stratagems? Nah. We've definitely seen everything. Where is AM's strat to +1 wound from the whole army?

Sorry.

You will be. You wiiilll be.

 Nevermind wrote:

 Therion wrote:
Even if we changed the modifier system and deleted Dark Reapers these new Tau would still be an army with no soup potential, no psychic buffs and no psychic defense whatsoever, no staying power to win on objectives alone, no special deployment options like SM Scouts to get board control, no alternative win conditions from assault units tying up the enemy army, and finally weapon and stat profiles that mathhammer worse than many existing units in the game. In short, a one dimensional non starter.

Save your rants for when everything is out.

Everything IS out. The guys are ATT leaked the whole book, which fueled my rant. I guess next you’ll say ”We don’t know until we have at least five GTs behind us with the codex”. After that it’ll be ”Let’s wait for Chapter Approved”.

 Therion wrote:

 Nevermind wrote:

 Therion wrote:
Even if we changed the modifier system and deleted Dark Reapers these new Tau would still be an army with no soup potential, no psychic buffs and no psychic defense whatsoever, no staying power to win on objectives alone, no special deployment options like SM Scouts to get board control, no alternative win conditions from assault units tying up the enemy army, and finally weapon and stat profiles that mathhammer worse than many existing units in the game. In short, a one dimensional non starter.

Save your rants for when everything is out.

Everything IS out. The guys are ATT leaked the whole book, which fueled my rant. I guess next you’ll say ”We don’t know until we have at least five GTs behind us with the codex”. After that it’ll be ”Let’s wait for Chapter Approved”.

Literally half this website when the Eldar book came out:

"Eldar is trash now, they didn't buff enough and the things that got stronger didn't get stronger enough! No one will ever use this book!"