Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Dream Pod 9 wrote:
Man you just can't stop trolling, its really sad.

A Big Thank You to all those on DakkaDakka forum that supported us and put up with all the BS that trolls post here.

I as the creator of the Kickstarter am not allowed to be a Backer of the project. We hope to run future successful Kickstarters and I'm not going to risk that by breaking Kickstarters rules. Dave, who is not the Creator, made a minimum $6 pledge so he could post comments if I was away from the computer and could not post them in a timely manner.

Sorry, but am I the one who took many people's money for things that I didn't deliver because I simply didn't feel like executing the contract that people paid me to?

No, I'm not. I have basic ethics, unlike you. And the fact that you pulled shenanigains before is a strong indication that you'd do it again. You're a liar and a thief, and the facts bear that out.

As for "trolling", if you hadn't lied to the previous backers, maybe there wouldn't be any issues. People bringing up your history of lies and theft is not trolling. It's the truth. If you can't handle the truth, maybe you should slink back to social media that you can control. But to come onto this forum, and act as you do, that's unacceptable.

Anyhow, you're being reported for breaking Rule 1.

Dakka doesn't need fraudsters like you here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

YouKnowsIt wrote:
To be fair the people he is talking about did accuse him of fraud. With zero evidence.

To be fair, DP9 has already shown themselves to be careless with other people's money, and has already defrauded the backers of the Polar KS out of multiple models that they had paid for. Once a thief, always a thief.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dream Pod 9 wrote:
As Canadian I'm sorry for implying that some who post on DakkaDakka are trolling and apologize for the remark.

Not accepted. You're a liar and a thief, so you're just saying it so people don't cancel payments.

Wow Wang you have another Fatwa against a manufacture anyone else on your rage train we have Soda Pop and now the Pod.

Anyone else? Because I have to wonder about someone who can keep this level of rage and bile going against multiple companies and still have time to gak post on KS as well.

SeanDrake wrote:

Spoiler:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Dream Pod 9 wrote:
Man you just can't stop trolling, its really sad.

A Big Thank You to all those on DakkaDakka forum that supported us and put up with all the BS that trolls post here.

I as the creator of the Kickstarter am not allowed to be a Backer of the project. We hope to run future successful Kickstarters and I'm not going to risk that by breaking Kickstarters rules. Dave, who is not the Creator, made a minimum $6 pledge so he could post comments if I was away from the computer and could not post them in a timely manner.

Sorry, but am I the one who took many people's money for things that I didn't deliver because I simply didn't feel like executing the contract that people paid me to?

No, I'm not. I have basic ethics, unlike you. And the fact that you pulled shenanigains before is a strong indication that you'd do it again. You're a liar and a thief, and the facts bear that out.

As for "trolling", if you hadn't lied to the previous backers, maybe there wouldn't be any issues. People bringing up your history of lies and theft is not trolling. It's the truth. If you can't handle the truth, maybe you should slink back to social media that you can control. But to come onto this forum, and act as you do, that's unacceptable.

Anyhow, you're being reported for breaking Rule 1.

Dakka doesn't need fraudsters like you here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

YouKnowsIt wrote:
To be fair the people he is talking about did accuse him of fraud. With zero evidence.

To be fair, DP9 has already shown themselves to be careless with other people's money, and has already defrauded the backers of the Polar KS out of multiple models that they had paid for. Once a thief, always a thief.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dream Pod 9 wrote:
As Canadian I'm sorry for implying that some who post on DakkaDakka are trolling and apologize for the remark.

Not accepted. You're a liar and a thief, so you're just saying it so people don't cancel payments.

Wow Wang you have another Fatwa against a manufacture anyone else on your rage train we have Soda Pop and now the Pod.

Anyone else? Because I have to wonder about someone who can keep this level of rage and bile going against multiple companies and still have time to gak post on KS as well.

Well he thinks 90% of game developers suck, so probably most companies. LOL

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/749619.page#9813762

In this case, while he's angrier then most, it's not by as much as you might think. The Pod did change the terms of their first KS, which ended up in having to drop two of the promised minis. The Pod offered an alternative, but it would involve spending even more money. (they offered the metal version at a discount, but the discount was less then what contributors had already paid, at least for the extras that people had ordered.) In many ways critics on this page are a thorn of the pod's own making. But unlike what the Pod's rep's poster said, it is criticism, though bitter, and not trolling.

Additionally, RULE #1 is a real thing here.

A real important thing.

Consider this everyone's final warning in that regard.

The Pod offered an alternative, but it would involve spending even more money. (they offered the metal version at a discount, but the discount was less then what contributors had already paid, at least for the extras that people had ordered.)

I ordered extra Sidewinders (because it is the best gear), but I don't even remember the offer of metals, I just used the credit I would have spent in the pledge manager to get an extra plastic gear or two.

That's part of why I'm not mad about "big-bad Pod stealin my money" because that didn't happen. Sure I lost some relative value on the core since it was now down a stretch goal but it's just as likely they might never have reached that goal to begin with, the loss wasn't really anything tangible to me.

But unlike what the Pod's rep's poster said, it is criticism, though bitter, and not trolling.

Disagree, frothing about something being stolen when it wasn't isn't a rational criticism.

They probably should have offered refunds when they made that decision, TBH. Particularly because it was a crisis of their own making, provoked due to the fact that they did not change currencies right away even though they knew they were going to be working in USD all the time. The decision of not honoring certain Stretch Goals was clearly a breach of contract, going by KS's own terms (whatever it says in their own project, the KS TOS disagree with them).

That said, at least they were open about it, and offered an alternative, of sorts, so there's that.

The decision of not honoring certain Stretch Goals was clearly a breach of contract, going by KS's own terms (whatever it says in their own project, the KS TOS disagree with them).

My verbal reaction to this was something along the lines of: eeeeehhhhhh

I mean KS is notoriously bad at enforcement and there's lots of projects that do far worse (I know I backed one of them). Besides which Kickstarter specifically says

Sometimes the execution of the project proves more difficult than the creator had anticipated. If a creator is making a good faith effort to complete their project and is transparent about it, backers should do their best to be patient and understanding while demanding continued accountability from the creator.

If the problems are severe enough that the creator can't fulfill their project, creators need to find a resolution. Steps should include offering refunds, detailing exactly how funds were used, and other actions to satisfy backers.

Which pretty much sums upped what happened, there was a problem, they made a good faith effort and completed the project.

I mean I'm not saying DP9 are perfect, the currency thing is definitely embarrassing to say the least. It's very much a small-timer mistake from a company that should be a little more established. But this whole thing about 2 frackin' minis is kind of ridiculous as well.

The offer was to pick up tigers and sidewinders for something like 20% less, or about $2.50 USD off, or use the money elsewhere (which is what I ended up doing myself). While the models in the KS by that point were between $2.00 and $2.20 cents, so the savings they offered were the same, but the extras were 5 each, and we couldn't use the KS funding for the replacements. We'd have to add more money in. I had ordered 4 extra of each, and didn't really want any of the other add-ons, but ended up taking more Kodiaks and King Cobras. But that was to just use up the money, not because I had any particular desire to own more of them. I would have preferred a refund at the time, though in hind sight, picking up token sets would have been a better option.

 ScarletRose wrote:

The decision of not honoring certain Stretch Goals was clearly a breach of contract, going by KS's own terms (whatever it says in their own project, the KS TOS disagree with them).

My verbal reaction to this was something along the lines of: eeeeehhhhhh

I mean KS is notoriously bad at enforcement and there's lots of projects that do far worse (I know I backed one of them). Besides which Kickstarter specifically says

<snip>

Which pretty much sums upped what happened, there was a problem, they made a good faith effort and completed the project.

Yeah, as I said I don't find it particularly problematic. But as I also said, they probably should have offered a refund too, mainly because the problem they had was completely avoidable and all their fault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mmmpi wrote:
The offer was to pick up tigers and sidewinders for something like 20% less, or about $2.50 USD off, or use the money elsewhere (which is what I ended up doing myself). While the models in the KS by that point were between $2.00 and $2.20 cents, so the savings they offered were the same, but the extras were 5 each, and we couldn't use the KS funding for the replacements. We'd have to add more money in. I had ordered 4 extra of each, and didn't really want any of the other add-ons, but ended up taking more Kodiaks and King Cobras. But that was to just use up the money, not because I had any particular desire to own more of them. I would have preferred a refund at the time, though in hind sight, picking up token sets would have been a better option.

I probably would have used the "extra" money as part of the shipping payment, myself.

 Albertorius wrote:

I probably would have used the "extra" money as part of the shipping payment, myself.

"We can't use KS funds for shipping"

Otherwise I would have in a heart beat.

Plus I think I already had paid for shipping by that point.

 Albertorius wrote:
They probably should have offered refunds when they made that decision, TBH. Particularly because it was a crisis of their own making, provoked due to the fact that they did not change currencies right away even though they knew they were going to be working in USD all the time. The decision of not honoring certain Stretch Goals was clearly a breach of contract, going by KS's own terms (whatever it says in their own project, the KS TOS disagree with them).

That said, at least they were open about it, and offered an alternative, of sorts, so there's that.

Was it actually a breach?

Finally there is a chance that we cannot provide a model that has been included in the kickstarter due to problems with the molding process or simply not enough interest in that figure as an add on sale. If that is the case then we will provide backers with the opportunity to use some credit to choose from the other models produced.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/heavygearblitz/heavy-gear-blitz-war-for-terra-nova-starter-set

There’s a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised. If a creator is absolutely unable to complete the project and fulfill rewards, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to a satisfying conclusion for their backers.

https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#Acco

When it happened, I initially thought that the whole metal replacement thing in case they couldn't make a mini applied but it turns out that they gave themselves alot of wiggle room in the risks section. I agree that it was very poor form to not offer a full refund for that particular add on or to optionally provide the metal version at the same price (backer's choice) as well as alternately swapping in some other plastic model but I don't think technically it was a breach. It was a bad PR move and missed opportunity to show gratitude towards a very loyal subset of customers willing to prepay a year in advance sight unseen.

 warboss wrote:
Was it actually a breach?

What is a creator obligated to do once their project is funded?
When a project is successfully funded, the creator is responsible for completing the project and fulfilling each reward. Their fundamental obligation to backers is to finish all the work that was promised. Once a creator has done so, they’ve fulfilled their obligation to their backers.

At the same time, backers must understand that Kickstarter is not a store. When you back a project, you’re helping to create something new — not ordering something that already exists. There’s a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised. If a creator is absolutely unable to complete the project and fulfill rewards, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to a satisfying conclusion for their backers. For more information, see Section 4 of our Terms of Use.

For projects that launched before October 19, 2014, please see our previous Terms of Use.

Ther is some wiggle room, certainly, but as far as I know, Dream Pod 9 never proved they were "absolutely unable to complete the project and fulfill rewards". They only proved they done fethed up by not changing currencies, so they had a deficit between the money they got from the KS and the actual costs. That, in and of itself, was no proof they would be unable to fulfill the project, just proof that it would cost them money.

It also says that if the creator is unable to fulfill the project they should offer full refunds or refunds for the unfulfilled part, which DP9 didn't do.

Once again, though, I don't think what the Pod did in this specific case was really all that bad. They just should have offered refunds in addition to what they did.

 Albertorius wrote:

Once again, though, I don't think what the Pod did in this specific case was really all that bad. They just should have offered refunds in addition to what they did.

Agreed and stated as such above.

 Albertorius wrote:

Ther is some wiggle room, certainly, but as far as I know, Dream Pod 9 never proved they were "absolutely unable to complete the project and fulfill rewards". They only proved they done fethed up by not changing currencies, so they had a deficit between the money they got from the KS and the actual costs. That, in and of itself, was no proof they would be unable to fulfill the project, just proof that it would cost them money.

I view it as implicit that 'being able to complete' means 'with the money the KS raised'. I also assume that DP9 sunk as much money into the project as they could (reasonably) afford to before they got the KS funds, but that's only an assumption.

But I'm also open to the idea that a KS involves risk to the money I put into it. Do as much as you can with the money you get, that's what I expect of a KS - that along with some transparency. That's why I'm not mad about the first Heavy Gear KS in the same way I'm very angry about the Robotech RPG Tactics KS. DP9 fethed up, DP9 admitted to fething up, DP9 delivered on 90%+ of the original plan. Palladium delivers on 30% of the plan and still refused to admit it fethed up at all.

Some people took the Tiger/Sidewinder thing harder then others. And yeah, it could have been handled better, but like a few of you said, not a deal breaker on it's own. I was more angry about the slow response on dealing with mold issues, and the fact that random customers were able to purchase new sets before mine was ever even mailed to me. (I was wave 1)

Right now though the HGB fans seem highly divided into two camps, the "Pod can do no wrong" camp and the "Pod will ef it up camp", with almost no one in the middle ground. At least that's what it feels like. And the Dakka crowd seems mostly to be the later group. What's more the Pod poster should know that. Both the higher ups at the company have talked to the fans here before. They know there's some bad blood and hurt personalities. The DP9 poster though just dumped press releases here. Other companies have had semi-regular contact, the warcradle and shieldwolf ones come to mind. But DP9 just put up their photo-shopped stuff, and then left it to the 'trolls' to answer what few questions there were.

It felt lazy. I didn't get much info from the Pod's forum, I actually got the most from the 'trolls', who were providing metrics and analysis on the odds of the KS succeeding. And really it only worked out because quite a few people massively increased their pledge.

I'm on the fence with the company. While I'm new, I've seen some of the stuff that the people here on dakka complain about, such as the 'business as usual' attitude. The abusive boyfriend line of 'honey, I changed!' which is followed by a lack of change.

I went in for $72 USD. I can write that off. But the motivated fans that dropped $400, $800? The Pod can't screw this up, or their best supporters are going to take it in the teeth. They need to learn from the mistakes of their first KS, but from my recent experiences, I'm not sure if their president has the attitude, or the willpower to do that.

I guess the TLDR would be that the Pod doesn't know how to work with critical fans, is VERY entrenched in it's business as usual attitude, and the most realistic information on what's happening around it AND on it's recent public projects is coming from the 'trolls'.

 Mmmpi wrote:
(...)
I guess the TLDR would be that the Pod doesn't know how to work with critical fans, is VERY entrenched in it's business as usual attitude, and the most realistic information on what's happening around it AND on it's recent public projects is coming from the 'trolls'.

You're pretty close to it, although you're missing one critical point. DP9 - and remember that DP9 is really Robert and Dave at this point - doesn't want customers, it wants fan-friends. People that will loudly claim their love of the Pod, and buy whatever's out, good or bad. If you start criticizing the Pod or its releases, you're not a fan anymore, you're a troll. That's why there really isn't any middle-ground possible, you're either a fan-friend that will support the Pod through anything, or a hateful hatin' hater. Seeing as you're making valid points, and weighting the good and the bad, you're likely already in the second box, as far as the Pod is concerned.

 Mmmpi wrote:

I went in for $72 USD. I can write that off. But the motivated fans that dropped $400, $800? The Pod can't screw this up, or their best supporters are going to take it in the teeth. They need to learn from the mistakes of their first KS, but from my recent experiences, I'm not sure if their president has the attitude, or the willpower to do that.

See, this is where you're mistaken, for a fan-friend, taking it in the teeth is a badge of honor, it shows how dedicated you are, and how much you like the Pod, still supporting it despite its failings. Think I'm exagerating ? Read the comments about the Sidewinder/Tiger, where the Pod backpedalling on an item actually got increased support from the "fans".
This KS is a good example as well, note that it succeeded only because the fans decided to splurge extra at the last moment, so it barely made the basic goal. The large amount of comments by the backers that can be summed up as "I'm not into the actual product, I'm just doing this for the Pod" should be telling, and the Pod would do well to notice it's managing only on what's literaly fan's charity...

Seeing as you're making valid points, and weighting the good and the bad, you're likely already in the second box, as far as the Pod is concerned.

So far I seem to still be in good standing over there, despite the hell I raised over selling at Gencon before wave 1 shipped, and the molding issues. But I haven't posted there much except to ask questions about the KS lately. I've been following the rules debates, but I moved away from the group I played with and left my armies behind, so I really haven't been joining in.

On a rules note, there's a really frustrated group over there. They've been trying to help Dave adjust the rules, and then the Pod went and dump the original version (non-playtested craptacular ones) as well as some the player base has never seen before right out there. End result: 50% have said house rule everything, the other 50% are using the previous beta rules, which at least functioned. If I'm in hot water, then Albertsauraus might be getting some company in the "banned zone" from this group. (which has been perfectly respectful and follows the forum rules)

Do you really want me to get started on DP9 playtests ?

Please no, I've done nothing to deserve that.

 John Prins wrote:
But I'm also open to the idea that a KS involves risk to the money I put into it. Do as much as you can with the money you get, that's what I expect of a KS - that along with some transparency. That's why I'm not mad about the first Heavy Gear KS in the same way I'm very angry about the Robotech RPG Tactics KS. DP9 fethed up, DP9 admitted to fething up, DP9 delivered on 90%+ of the original plan. Palladium delivers on 30% of the plan and still refused to admit it fethed up at all.

I agree that KS poses the risk of you losing the money you spent. I just don't agree that said risk is completely weighted exclusively on the backers. A KS is... well, it's kickstarting a product, a product that can be sold afterwards and that the project creator can recoup costs selling a thing that would have not existed otherwise. So I don't think that the only ones to be at risk of losing their money should be the backers.

That said, I believe that we all are more or less on the same page, only we're stressing more a part or another of the same continuum.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HudsonD wrote:
You're pretty close to it, although you're missing one critical point. DP9 - and remember that DP9 is really Robert and Dave at this point - doesn't want customers, it wants fan-friends. People that will loudly claim their love of the Pod, and buy whatever's out, good or bad. If you start criticizing the Pod or its releases, you're not a fan anymore, you're a troll. That's why there really isn't any middle-ground possible, you're either a fan-friend that will support the Pod through anything, or a hateful hatin' hater. Seeing as you're making valid points, and weighting the good and the bad, you're likely already in the second box, as far as the Pod is concerned.

Hmmmm..... from which other company have I heard that ^_^


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mmmpi wrote:
On a rules note, there's a really frustrated group over there. They've been trying to help Dave adjust the rules, and then the Pod went and dump the original version (non-playtested craptacular ones) as well as some the player base has never seen before right out there. End result: 50% have said house rule everything, the other 50% are using the previous beta rules, which at least functioned. If I'm in hot water, then Albertsauraus might be getting some company in the "banned zone" from this group. (which has been perfectly respectful and follows the forum rules)

Heh. That also seems to ring a bell xD.

Also, please, I'm from a family of guardias civiles. I'm clearly a Tricornossaurus Rex.

I do hope Robert has learned from past experiences and shows a little more restraint with the ban button, though.

EDIT: ...wait. WaitwaiwaitWAIT. You mean to tell me that DP9 has released yet another new set of rules? Holy fething christ on a pogo stick I can't remember being able to play more than twice a DP9's ruleset, aside from playtests.

I'm not trying to stir anything, nor do I have enough skin the the fight to be for or against DP9, but I am genuinely curious:

Can KS companies usually offer refunds if they are unable to deliver on a project or stretch goal? It seems like if they took their KS money and sank it into production or design, they don't really have the money anymore to refund even if they wanted to. I'll be the first to admit I don't really know how KS works...I've only ever backed one project and that was a loooooong time ago.

EDIT: ...wait. WaitwaiwaitWAIT. You mean to tell me that DP9 has released yet another new set of rules? Holy fething christ on a pogo stick I can't remember being able to play more than twice a DP9's ruleset, aside from playtests.

More of an overly large update. Just keep using the old beta rules.

 Albertorius wrote:
I do hope Robert has learned from past experiences and shows a little more restraint with the ban button, though.

Albertorius you and HudsonD hold the distinction of being the only two DP9 Forum members banned for trolling and attacking other forum members since it was opened. Other than random members that joined and posted porn or internet spam on the forum, they get banned as soon as reported, we want to have a family friendly forum. We give DP9 Forum members a warning after an incident is reported if warranted, explaining why they received a warning and asking that they not do it again, but if the member continues the inappropriate behavior after several warnings we don't have any other option but to ban them. I'm prepared to lift both your bans if you promise to play nice with others on the DP9 Forum.


As for your comments about another rules edition, we now have a free to download Heavy Gear Blitz Living Rulebook ebook for the game that gets updated. We published the 1st Edition of Heavy Gear back in the summer 1995, over 22 years ago, and we are always trying to improve the game based on feedback from players and playtest groups. We don't always get it right, we are human, and its not easy to make everyone happy, but we keep trying. And we'll try even harder, keep an eye on the DP9 Forum in the coming weeks. Look at other games like Dungeon and Dragons for example its now the 5th edition and Games Workshop's Warhammer 40k is like 8th edition, everyone tries to improve their games.

 Dream Pod 9 wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
I do hope Robert has learned from past experiences and shows a little more restraint with the ban button, though.

Albertorius you and HudsonD hold the distinction of being the only two DP9 Forum members banned for trolling and attacking other forum members since it was opened. Other than random members that joined and posted porn or internet spam on the forum, they get banned as soon as reported, we want to have a family friendly forum. We give DP9 Forum members a warning after an incident is reported if warranted, explaining why they received a warning and asking that they not do it again, but if the member continues the inappropriate behavior after several warnings we don't have any other option but to ban them. I'm prepared to lift both your bans if you promise to play nice with others on the DP9 Forum.

Just for the record, Albertorious was one of the top five most upvoted posters in the history of the forum (http://dp9forum.com/index.php?/topmembers/) and was banned because he presented mild mannered constructive criticism about the significant background changes (the backstory being the part of HG he is most interested in) made specifically to allow Wunji's unsuccessful Dreadnoughts side project to be kickstarted. HudsonD was still posting (albeit infrequently) as of Jan 10th with the inoccuous post below. If you banned him more recently then it was in retaliation for what he said here as the below was his only post in the past year.

Man, I leave what, a couple years ? I come back to check in, and things are the same as they've always been. I can't count how many times such a thing has happened already.

http://dp9forum.com/index.php?/profile/447-hudson-d/

Perhaps you're confusing them with longtime forum member and freelancer Smilodon who was also banned that you forgot to mention? But that was because of a big argument between you and him both in private and public about both creative reasons and money that did admittedly get quite heated and deserved a time out (although I disagree that a permaban was in order but that was your call). Regardless, painting Hudson and Albertorius as trolls on the DP9 forums isn't correct and you're attempting to "punish" them over there for much more scathing things said here. Still, your offer of forgiveness is quite generous, High Sparrow Robert.

Honestly this whole conversation is counter productive. A mod has been here twice already, and things are getting personal again. Dream, you're poking a beehive. Let things settle down.

 warboss wrote:
Perhaps you're confusing them with longtime forum member and freelancer Smilodon who was also banned that you forgot to mention? But that was because of a big argument between you and him both in private and public about both creative reasons and money that did admittedly get quite heated and deserved a time out (although I disagree that a permaban was in order but that was your call). Regardless, painting Hudson and Albertorius as trolls on the DP9 forums isn't correct and you're attempting to "punish" them over there for much more scathing things said here. Still, your offer of forgiveness is quite generous, High Sparrow Robert.

Hmm?
<goes check ignored posts>

Dream Pod 9 wrote:I'm prepared to lift both your bans if you promise to play nice with others on the DP9 Forum.

Oh. Well, thank you for the offer, Mr. Dubois, but after a year and a half I no longer desire to post on the Dream Pod 9 Forums. My only remaining real interest for your products lies on the RPG/setting side of things, and even though Arkrite seems to be mostly dormant, I still hope we'll end up getting a good new edition of both the RPG proper and the settting.

Should things change re: setting and RPG, I might revisit my decision. Thanks again for the offer.

As for your comments about another rules edition, we now have a free to download Heavy Gear Blitz Living Rulebook ebook for the game that gets updated. We published the 1st Edition of Heavy Gear back in the summer 1995, over 22 years ago, and we are always trying to improve the game based on feedback from players and playtest groups. We don't always get it right, we are human, and its not easy to make everyone happy, but we keep trying. And we'll try even harder, keep an eye on the DP9 Forum in the coming weeks. Look at other games like Dungeon and Dragons for example its now the 5th edition and Games Workshop's Warhammer 40k is like 8th edition, everyone tries to improve their games.

You are right. HG has not had as many editions as other games. Or at least, actual, full editions, that is.

Even though, just with published iterations, you have:

- HG 1st Edition RPG: 1st iteration of the tactical rules
- HG 2nd edition RPG: 2nd iteration of the tactical rules
- HG Miniature rules: 3rd iteration of the tactical rules
- SilCORE: fourth 4th iteration of the tactical rules
- SilCORE Miniature Rules: 5th iteration of the tactical rules
- HG Blitz!: 6th iteration of the tactical rules
- HG Blitz! L&L: 7th iteration of the tactical rules
- HG Blitz! L&L 1.1: 8th iteration of the tactical rules
- HG Blitz! Field Manual: 9th iteration of the tactical rules
- HG nuBlitz! Beta: 10th iteration of the tactical rules
- HG nuBlitz! Final Beta/Quick Start Rules: 11th iteration of the tactical rules
- HG NuBlitz! nuBeta!: 12th (and final, so far, apparently) iteration of the tactical rules

...I think I'm missing the tactical box, from there, but eh.

That since 1995, unlike, say, D&D or Warhammer 40k.

 Albertorius wrote:
They probably should have offered refunds when they made that decision, TBH.

I would not argue that at least some of the fault lies with them, but this really makes no sense. They dropped the two figures because when it came down to it, they did not have the money to include them in the pledge package. If they could afford to refund people for the cost of those deleted figures, they could have just manufactured them instead.

In the end, it seems a rather small issue to me but obviously others though it was a much bigger deal.

 Dream Pod 9 wrote:

I'm prepared to lift both your bans if you promise to play nice with others on the DP9 Forum.

Well thank you for the offer Mr Dubois, however my ban has already been lifted, about 6 years ago, when I joined the team as a proof-reader/editor and got involved with the Field Manual rulebook and NuCoal sourcebook, two of the most succesful products DP9 released for their Heavy Gear line.

 Dream Pod 9 wrote:
(...) we are always trying to improve the game based on feedback from players and playtest groups. We don't always get it right, we are human, and its not easy to make everyone happy, but we keep trying. And we'll try even harder, keep an eye on the DP9 Forum in the coming weeks.

The core of the issue, there, is that the latest revision precisely ignored most of the actual player feedback, and was released to some rather lukewarm reception :
http://dp9forum.com/index.php?/topic/18239-my-and-baconradars-overall-thoughts-on-the-beta-lrb-update/
That's not the first time this happens, either. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Anyway, I've largely moved on from Heavy Gear, given how unsatisfying the treatment of the setting and miniatures have been, and from the recent KS numbers, it appears so have many others.
I'm not sure the whole line can be saved at this point, still, let it not be said I've refused an honest offer.

 godswildcard wrote:
I'm not trying to stir anything, nor do I have enough skin the the fight to be for or against DP9, but I am genuinely curious:

Can KS companies usually offer refunds if they are unable to deliver on a project or stretch goal? It seems like if they took their KS money and sank it into production or design, they don't really have the money anymore to refund even if they wanted to. I'll be the first to admit I don't really know how KS works...I've only ever backed one project and that was a loooooong time ago.

I backed the Erfworld "Make a motion comic DVD/bluray" kickstarter years ago. While they delivered on the stickers and knick-knacks eventually Rob Balder said the DVD wouldn't be coming out in any time or way soon and sent an email offering refunds for the DVD cost of the pledge.
So it does happen, just far less often than it should

 godswildcard wrote:
Can KS companies usually offer refunds if they are unable to deliver on a project or stretch goal?

As a general rule companies are required by basic Consumer Protection Law to refund monies if they cannot deliver.

If the don't have the money to refund or deliver, well, that's a different issue...
____

Side note: WTF does the DP9 forum business have to do with Dakka? Isn't that hugely Off Topic?