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Nah they have a very specific role if you know how to properly utilize them. Are they absolutely necessary - no.

Obviously you are taking out weaker characters with it.

It's good against:

1) Primaris psyker spam
2) Tau, surprisingly
3) Eldar, not surprisingly
4) Regular marine characters buffing other infantry
5) Maybe admech? Not sure

Poor against:

1) Most primaris marine characters
2) Most Tyranids
3) Most regular IG builds, because the characters are vehicles
4) Any character in 2+ armor
5) Any list with a way to give wounds back to characters

I'm sure I missed some categories, but I am not seeing the utility.

Scouts are solid for denying deep strike. They're great in a lot of ways. Snipers tend to do very little in my experience. The best value these guys bring is in deep strike denial.

 Primark G wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
If they are camping on backfield objectives sniper rifles and a HW is the way to go.

I never use them for this. Ever.

And you are having problems playing SM competitively by your own admission.

Link us to an ITC tournament you've won. If you're going to make a personal jab let's see your record in tournaments with more than 8 people.

I don't use them in my deployment zone because their deployment rules are too valuable to be wasted like that. But why put snipers out where they will be assaulted early? I just don't see a role for sniper scouts.

 Marmatag wrote:
Scouts are solid for denying deep strike. They're great in a lot of ways. Snipers tend to do very little in my experience. The best value these guys bring is in deep strike denial.

 Primark G wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
If they are camping on backfield objectives sniper rifles and a HW is the way to go.

I never use them for this. Ever.

And you are having problems playing SM competitively by your own admission.

Link us to an ITC tournament you've won. If you're going to make a personal jab let's see your record in tournaments with more than 8 people.

Have you won any yet? Heh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't use them in my deployment zone because their deployment rules are too valuable to be wasted like that. But why put snipers out where they will be assaulted early? I just don't see a role for sniper scouts.

Sniper scouts should not be used as a road bump.

 Primark G wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Scouts are solid for denying deep strike. They're great in a lot of ways. Snipers tend to do very little in my experience. The best value these guys bring is in deep strike denial.

 Primark G wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
If they are camping on backfield objectives sniper rifles and a HW is the way to go.

I never use them for this. Ever.

And you are having problems playing SM competitively by your own admission.

Link us to an ITC tournament you've won. If you're going to make a personal jab let's see your record in tournaments with more than 8 people.

Have you won any yet? Heh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't use them in my deployment zone because their deployment rules are too valuable to be wasted like that. But why put snipers out where they will be assaulted early? I just don't see a role for sniper scouts.

Sniper scouts should not be used as a road bump.

Yes I have.

But it doesn't matter or come up really.

Your comment wasn't exactly nice and solved nothing or presented new info.

But if you're deep striking right, sticking the snipers outside your deployment zone could be very beneficial, no? I'm thinking take a few wounds of something, maybe even kill it, rattle the enemy so they decide to take out your noobmarines and bam! Terminator squad drops in right in front of them... And the Scouts can move on to another target or mop up anything your assaulters didn't finish?

I find that hard to believe based upon a lot of what you said - big fish in small pond probably.

@ craggy - exactly.

 Primark G wrote:
I find that hard to believe based upon a lot of what you said - big fish in small pond probably.

@ craggy - exactly.

In what universe do you think i'm actually going to participate in this nonsense?

Keep deploying your scouts comfortably inside your own deployment zone, paying 90 points to make them durable, while also limiting their scope dramatically and losing all advantage of the scout deployment rules. Best of luck.

pismakron wrote:There really are no snipers in 40 k worth their points. Not scout snipers, not ratlings, nor the vindicare.

Don't know if it counts, but sniper rifles in a AM infantry squad seem alright - for 2 points I get 36" and S4, with the chance to do a mortal wound (and bypass that stupid Character closeness rule).

craggy wrote:
But if you're deep striking right, sticking the snipers outside your deployment zone could be very beneficial, no? I'm thinking take a few wounds of something, maybe even kill it, rattle the enemy so they decide to take out your noobmarines and bam! Terminator squad drops in right in front of them... And the Scouts can move on to another target or mop up anything your assaulters didn't finish?

Except mathematically it is NOT a lot of wounds. I wouldn't ever change deployment because of snipers except if they were spamming Vindicares and had that much threats to spare.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I find that hard to believe based upon a lot of what you said - big fish in small pond probably.

@ craggy - exactly.

In what universe do you think i'm actually going to participate in this nonsense?

Keep deploying your scouts comfortably inside your own deployment zone, paying 90 points to make them durable, while also limiting their scope dramatically and losing all advantage of the scout deployment rules. Best of luck.

It is obvious you don't play Marines or simply don't know how.

Or give them knives and pistols, paint them a proper black, and have them as ablative Wounds in your Crusader Squads. They should be learning from the best as it is.

 Primark G wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I find that hard to believe based upon a lot of what you said - big fish in small pond probably.

@ craggy - exactly.

In what universe do you think i'm actually going to participate in this nonsense?

Keep deploying your scouts comfortably inside your own deployment zone, paying 90 points to make them durable, while also limiting their scope dramatically and losing all advantage of the scout deployment rules. Best of luck.

It is obvious you don't play Marines or simply don't know how.

Marmatag at least has an actual tournament topping he made mention of. You're telling him he doesn't know what he's talking about?

I'm going to have one once my Marines are done that's for sure. You'd not listen to me anyway though.

What’s the army list you are building?

pismakron wrote:
There really are no snipers in 40 k worth their points. Not scout snipers, not ratlings, nor the vindicare. The reason people buy scouts and rangers is because of their infiltrate and deepstrike denial. And this is indeed invaluable.

Devastators or intercessors are much better at hogging backfield objectives.

I have to disagree on the ratlings. They can be ordered to reroll all failed hit rolls if they didn't move. And they can move after shooting.

In the general sense, how DO scouts stack up in 8e? I know Marines don't really do well, but within the Marine context are they viable Troops? I had, at one point, wanted to do an almost-all-scout army but that didn't pan out - might try again sometime.

 Primark G wrote:
What’s the army list you are building?

It's in the Marine Tactica somewhere and I've been editing it constantly, but some elements are the same:
1. Lias Alpha Strike with Sternguard w/ Grav Cannons
2. Huron and Lt camping with vehicles of some sort, including a Scorpius (though that might change).

More than 90% of my models were destroyed in a fire otherwise I'd just have to do a little more painting. I'm starting square one overall otherwise haha! The Sternguard are completed, and my stand-in Huron, Lt., and Lias are done. I'm getting some Mk3 Boarding Shield dudes from FW as my Intercessors shipped over as well. All in due time...

It sounds pretty good TBH. Sorry about your army bruh.

Back to the topic, I've had pretty poor results from sniper scouts and am seriously considering dropping them from my list. They usually end up as a deep strike denial screen, and then spend the first few turns running away which really wastes the points spent on the rifles. Sadly, I never bought any bolter or CCW scouts so I don't have any little dudes ready to go to test them out, but I think they would work best with bolters and maybe a heavy bolter.

I'd go with anything but the snipers. The reason you see so many competitive SM armies with Scouts is because of the deployment rules and sniper Scouts don't take advantage of that, usually. They're also as expensive as a regular Marine (assuming you avoid the overpriced Camo Cloak) and not as durable. In order to really get any use of the Mortal Wounds from the rifles you need loads of them, and even then you often run into LoS issues with the characters you want to target. The ability for snipers to actually snipe anything in 40k is vastly overstated, IMO.

You take Scouts to screen your army. In the case of Blood Angels, that allows you to secure areas for your own units to deep strike and also stops your opponent deep striking close to you. They're a cheap screen against Smite spam too and are actually OK at tying up units in combat since you'll likely need to kill all 5 in combat due to their good Ld. That's not too easy for non-dedicated combat units. I don't think you can go wrong with any of the non-sniper builds. All have their place. I prefer bolters, myself, as my BA have other units to deal out the damage in CC.

A 5 man scout squad with snipers and cloaks costs as much as a 5 man intercessor squad.

The scouts have 6” more range, deployment options, can snipe characters, and cause mortal wounds occasionally.

Intercessors have twice the wounds, twice the CC attacks, rapid fire at half range, same save in cover, but better in the open/CC, -1 AP on their shooting.

Scouts have heavy weapon options, but the intercessors can take a AGL for a single point. While it’s not nearly as nice as a HB/ML, for a point it’s hard to say no. Scout sarge has more options, but unless you really want to trick him out, you probably aren’t taking them. Intercessor sarge can get a power sword and gets 3 swings with it, which is pretty nice.

If you are not utilizing the deployment options, the primaris do look pretty good in comparison. Sniping is either going to take time, or luck to kill something. Buffs can help speed this up. I think a sniper squad parked in with a captain/LT buff might bring more to the gunline then just more bolter fire would. But unsupported I think they just take too long to down their target. The mortal wounds on 6’s frim the snipers is very nice, and has played pivotal roles is some of my games. Bit -1 AP for all the regular shots is pretty nice as well. Less flashy/swingy, but probably more reliable.

In a slightly less direct comparison, those same 90 points will get you a 5 man tac squad with a lascannon. The squad’s guns aren’t as good for the backfield, but the LC is.

In my Eldar army I find I need to run about 15 Rangers to see a tangible amount of mortal wounds/damage output. 3 units of 5 run me 180pts and their rules are stronger than marine sniper scouts (I know its not TOTALLY fair to compare cross army but I'm doing it anyway!)

3 units of sniper scouts cost 270pts which is a bit outrageous to me. As said its better to sit them back in this load out and if you do that you're not using them as the valuable deep strike deniers they are.

I suppose I could consider them if I ran them as Raven Guard where they get a good benefit from sitting back but even then its pricey.

Regular scouts for 3 units cost 165pts, give you that area denial and leave you with over a 100pts to use on some sweet action.

I would never run more than one scout squad with sniper rifles. Mine also serve as a screen for my Vindicares.

 Primark G wrote:
What’s the army list you are building?

Im really not sure where I'm going. I was just looking for a small purchase. Where is a good place to find good blood angel lists?

Check out some video battle reports.

Will do.

Only time I run sniper rifles are with imp guard command squads. There they are a nice upgrade / option. On space marines I want my scouts with bolters only, their deployment options make them a good, cheap option and bolters are still OK weapons, if they kill something cool but really, their use as a screen out ways any offensive firepower they could put out with sniper rifles.

Just my 2 cents. :p