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 Vaktathi wrote:

If a game being livestreamed to many thousands of people in real time as part of a high profile commercial event can't deal with slowplaying, my confidence in a chess clock fixing anything is minima

Why? Clocks are not there to stop slowplaying. They just make slowplayers lose, or, at the very least, play on with a disadvantage.

Personally I don't see how a chess clock would fit in 40k mechanically. But I have no doubt, that they would improve the game experience if you could do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mugginns wrote:


That's been mentioned at least a dozen times m8.

No one has given a useful answer m8

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think the problem is not that it's "a solution that can't fix 100% of the problems but can fix 99% of them".

My objection is "it won't work in a few cases so it won't work at all." It's far more nuanced than that:

Premise 1) TFGs will be TFGs.
2) TFGs will game the system whatever it is.
3) There is no current need for Chess Clocks outside of TFGs slowplaying (that has been identified).
4) Chess clocks are a new system.
5) TFGs will still game them.

So you're not fixing anything. The problem is that slow playing will disappear and be replaced with clock manipulation as the TFG tactic of choice. It's just changing the symptoms and not treating the problems.

Same with lowering the points: slow-playing can happen at 1500.

The best solution is for TO's to step up when painfully obvious slowplaying is happening (like a 60 minute first turn with Tony's list) and actually tell TFGs to GTFO or shape up.

The issue is not with rules, but rather with enforcement. Adding more or different rules while enforcement is still bad is just going to move the problem around until the rules start becoming enforced.

I want to make sure I understand, you think its easier for TOs to police a tournament of 500+ people for slow play, or require the players to report it and then act on it, in a hobby full of lots of socially awkward dudes who hate confrontation or have to see this person for another 2 hours / weekend, you think that's easier than implementing timed rounds?

Who should roll for saves, and on whose clock?
No one has given a useful answer m8

Not really true, no. You roll for saves on your own clock. Been mentioned a dozen times.

 auticus wrote:
Slow play is one reason why I think tournaments fail (that and the bad balance in the game).

I prefer leagues. Where you play a series of games over a certain time frame in days or weeks. That way slow play is never a factor.

People are just used to tournament events being what they are though to change that.

Leagues don't work for competitive ranked play, though.

pismakron wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I still maintain there's no value in clocks if TOs/opponents/whatever won't enforce the rules.

Slowplaying LITERALLY HAPPENED on stream. There's video evidence. If video evidence of a rule breaking exists and the TO still won't enforce the rules, then clock evidence won't help either.

Clock evidence? With a clock you can slowplay as much as you like, you will just lose. No one slowplay in chess, for that same reason.

But I just don't think that 40k current mechanics can work well with a chess clock. Who should roll for saves, and on whose clock?

Yeah. 40k would have to have like Warmahordes, where you're comparing stats and only if you have Tough (e.g. FNP) do you roll during your opponent's turn (which is done on your clock). The fact it has armor saves throws a wrench into that. Instead of saves there would have to be an Armor value (which wouldn't be bad, but is a fundamental shift of the rules)

 Marmatag wrote:

 auticus wrote:
Slow play is one reason why I think tournaments fail (that and the bad balance in the game).

I prefer leagues. Where you play a series of games over a certain time frame in days or weeks. That way slow play is never a factor.

People are just used to tournament events being what they are though to change that.

Leagues don't work for competitive ranked play, though.

They could try to make the tournament a 3-day tournament instead of a 2- day tournament to have plenty of time. Yeah it will cost them more money, but I think they could recoup expenses if they make the fee higher, like 5-10$. Thats 5k$ more if they need to rent the place one more day, etc... in a 500 player tournament like this.

*sigh*

No, the clocks will make TFGs move from slow-playing to gaming the clock.

And the rules still won't be enforced, apparently even on a livestream.

So there will still be the same tired old problems (TFGs) and all you've done is given the normal players who don't have any trouble something more to worry about. There's 500+ players at the event, and I'd say based on my 8 games at NOVA (all of which finished before time to their natural conclusion) that a solid majority of them finished to time. So you've put an additional burden on those people in an effort to rein in TFGs, while just making the TFGs feth around with the clock instead of fething around with slowplaying. Either way, the TFGs get to feth around, no rules are enforced - except with clocks, the more middle-of-the-road players have more gak to do, keep track of, and argue about in an already complex game.

It really doesn't. Flipping the clock is not hard. Not even a little bit. They're built to be flipped way faster than any wargame will make use of.

Warmachine went through all of these same arguments. Players even argued that it wouldn't work because Trolls have tough on everything. It's just not a problem in practice.

What if they don't game the clock system? Like, its not possible?

LunarSol wrote:It really doesn't. Flipping the clock is not hard. Not even a little bit. They're built to be flipped way faster than any wargame will make use of.

Warmachine went through all of these same arguments. Players even argued that it wouldn't work because Trolls have tough on everything. It's just not a problem in practice.

I know you say it's not hard. But I can definitely imagine an argument starting over the clock in the mind of a fatigued, otherwise well-meaning person, and if it's starting even one more during-game argument than otherwise would happen, while applying no benefit because the TOs won't enforce the rules anyways, then what the feth is the point?

mugginns wrote:What if they don't game the clock system? Like, its not possible?

From what I've heard, people actually do game the clock.

And it's totally possible to do so. Even something as simple as not reminding someone to flip the clock and then rolling saves one at a time until they remember is gaming the clock. Heck, you could outright break the rules by going over time, and if the TOs don't enforce anything (which is essentially the status quo) then who cares? It's not like breaking the rules and going over time actually /means/ anything.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

LunarSol wrote:It really doesn't. Flipping the clock is not hard. Not even a little bit. They're built to be flipped way faster than any wargame will make use of.

Warmachine went through all of these same arguments. Players even argued that it wouldn't work because Trolls have tough on everything. It's just not a problem in practice.

mugginns wrote:What if they don't game the clock system? Like, its not possible?

From what I've heard, people actually do game the clock.

And it's totally possible to do so. Even something as simple as not reminding someone to flip the clock and then rolling saves one at a time until they remember is gaming the clock. Heck, you could outright break the rules by going over time, and if the TOs don't enforce anything (which is essentially the status quo) then who cares? It's not like breaking the rules and going over time actually /means/ anything.

What if they bring weighted dice and win a tournament?

 mugginns wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

LunarSol wrote:It really doesn't. Flipping the clock is not hard. Not even a little bit. They're built to be flipped way faster than any wargame will make use of.

Warmachine went through all of these same arguments. Players even argued that it wouldn't work because Trolls have tough on everything. It's just not a problem in practice.

mugginns wrote:What if they don't game the clock system? Like, its not possible?

From what I've heard, people actually do game the clock.

And it's totally possible to do so. Even something as simple as not reminding someone to flip the clock and then rolling saves one at a time until they remember is gaming the clock. Heck, you could outright break the rules by going over time, and if the TOs don't enforce anything (which is essentially the status quo) then who cares? It's not like breaking the rules and going over time actually /means/ anything.

What if they bring weighted dice and win a tournament?

Then they'll probably get away with that too until the TOs start enforcing the rules.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 mugginns wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

LunarSol wrote:It really doesn't. Flipping the clock is not hard. Not even a little bit. They're built to be flipped way faster than any wargame will make use of.

Warmachine went through all of these same arguments. Players even argued that it wouldn't work because Trolls have tough on everything. It's just not a problem in practice.

mugginns wrote:What if they don't game the clock system? Like, its not possible?

From what I've heard, people actually do game the clock.

And it's totally possible to do so. Even something as simple as not reminding someone to flip the clock and then rolling saves one at a time until they remember is gaming the clock. Heck, you could outright break the rules by going over time, and if the TOs don't enforce anything (which is essentially the status quo) then who cares? It's not like breaking the rules and going over time actually /means/ anything.

What if they bring weighted dice and win a tournament?

Then they'll probably get away with that too until the TOs start enforcing the rules.

So its probably just best to not use dice then, yeah?

 mugginns wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 mugginns wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

LunarSol wrote:It really doesn't. Flipping the clock is not hard. Not even a little bit. They're built to be flipped way faster than any wargame will make use of.

Warmachine went through all of these same arguments. Players even argued that it wouldn't work because Trolls have tough on everything. It's just not a problem in practice.

mugginns wrote:What if they don't game the clock system? Like, its not possible?

From what I've heard, people actually do game the clock.

And it's totally possible to do so. Even something as simple as not reminding someone to flip the clock and then rolling saves one at a time until they remember is gaming the clock. Heck, you could outright break the rules by going over time, and if the TOs don't enforce anything (which is essentially the status quo) then who cares? It's not like breaking the rules and going over time actually /means/ anything.

What if they bring weighted dice and win a tournament?

Then they'll probably get away with that too until the TOs start enforcing the rules.

So its probably just best to not use dice then, yeah?

If it wasn't mandatory for the core rules of the game to function, then yea, dice would be an unnecessary requirement that probably should be dispensed with.

Tell me if clocks are mandatory for the core rules of the game, would you please?

I remember when this thread was about the LVO 40k Champs, not about clocks.

Those were good times.

They could be =) If a tournament made it clear in the tournament rules!

Really though what you're seeing is, and this comes up on any DD thread where someone proposes a change to 40k: you could come up with edge cases for ten days to deny any kind of change.

Again, you really think enforcing 'slow play' restrictions, something that can't be measured at all, would be easier for 500+ people than using chess clocks? C'mon man.

The ETC introduced quite an effective way to punish slow playing. Essentially, people had to keep a time sheet that tracked how much time was spent on each phase, and everyone who went overtime was put on a watch list. If a person went overtime in multiple games, they would be punished (points deduction usually). Since the slow-playing TFG individuals were usually known anyway, it was a pretty effective deterrent.

Of course, if a significant percentage of the games at a tournament end prematurely, this indicates the time limit should be raised, or the points value lowered.

Ushtarador wrote:
The ETC introduced quite an effective way to punish slow playing. Essentially, people had to keep a time sheet that tracked how much time was spent on each phase, and everyone who went overtime was put on a watch list. If a person went overtime in multiple games, they would be punished (points deduction usually). Since the slow-playing TFG individuals were usually known anyway, it was a pretty effective deterrent.

Of course, if a significant percentage of the games at a tournament end prematurely, this indicates the time limit should be raised, or the points value lowered.

So.... players kept a running tab of their time allocation during the game to ensure equitable usage? Sounds like it would be convenient to have some sort of device that did this for you...

I think that question depends on how bad of a problem slow play really is, which is something we don't have much data for.

Based on my experience at NOVA, watching for slow play on the tables around me (because I find watching armies and games in general very fun) as well as my own games, I would say it's fairly uncommon, and when it does happen, it's painfully obvious.

One would see things like someone rolling 5+ invuln saves for a terminator squad 1 at a time after suffering like 8 wounds from a Baneblade Cannon, or making sure their conscripts were exactly 2" apart in a game without templates.

The largest issue is opponents not having a problem with this (and I understand why) and not calling a judge, and the second largest issue is that apparently the TOs/judges don't care anyways.

If slowplaying is really such a huge issue that it has to be micromanaged at every table by the judges, then clocks are probably the best solution. But in my experience, it's not nearly that bad.

 auticus wrote:
Slow play is one reason why I think tournaments fail (that and the bad balance in the game).

I prefer leagues. Where you play a series of games over a certain time frame in days or weeks. That way slow play is never a factor.

People are just used to tournament events being what they are though to change that.

If we play our league game Thursday night at the local store I can still slowplay you. Not like your going to take pictures of the board when we run out of time and resume next week.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 auticus wrote:
Slow play is one reason why I think tournaments fail (that and the bad balance in the game).

I prefer leagues. Where you play a series of games over a certain time frame in days or weeks. That way slow play is never a factor.

People are just used to tournament events being what they are though to change that.

Leagues don't work for competitive ranked play, though.

They could try to make the tournament a 3-day tournament instead of a 2- day tournament to have plenty of time. Yeah it will cost them more money, but I think they could recoup expenses if they make the fee higher, like 5-10$. Thats 5k$ more if they need to rent the place one more day, etc... in a 500 player tournament like this.

LVO is already a 3 day tournament. And going over 2 days means you can't fit it inside a weekend and people need to take time off of work which is a big deal.

 LunarSol wrote:
It really doesn't. Flipping the clock is not hard.

Nobody said the physical act of doing so was hard. The issue is that 40k has more units, more models, more actions, more interrupt events, more exceptions, more rolling and dice, more range, more variance in army style and size, etc than games like Warmahordes, and that makes it much more prone to error, drama, gamesmanship and simply losing ones place, in addition to imposing an additonal cost for play/event organizing to tackle a problem that, while present, is limited in scale and has other alternatives that are less disruptive.

Clocks work in some games. I would have no issues with a clock in a game like Dropzone Commander for example where force sizes are generally very similar, games can be won without killing a single enemy model, boards are 4x4 may have no more than a dozen ground units in total between both sides, LoS is extremely limited and weapons ranges are restricted, you're almost never rolling double digits worth of dice, saves are rare and interrupts quick actions from a hand of card abilities, and models with more than 1 or 2 wounds are very uncommon even among things like heavy battletanks. For DzC, clocks can work just fine.

But in 40k? 40k is a comparative mess, built inherently around attritional battle, and clocks are just going to add to that mess

 LunarSol wrote:

Ushtarador wrote:
The ETC introduced quite an effective way to punish slow playing. Essentially, people had to keep a time sheet that tracked how much time was spent on each phase, and everyone who went overtime was put on a watch list. If a person went overtime in multiple games, they would be punished (points deduction usually). Since the slow-playing TFG individuals were usually known anyway, it was a pretty effective deterrent.

Of course, if a significant percentage of the games at a tournament end prematurely, this indicates the time limit should be raised, or the points value lowered.

So.... players kept a running tab of their time allocation during the game to ensure equitable usage? Sounds like it would be convenient to have some sort of device that did this for you...

No, it doesn't matter if one person uses much more time than the other, as long as all their games play out to the end. In the end, the TFG will always find a way to make the game unpleasant, chess clocks just add another angle.

If the time limit and point value match up well, most games conclude normally, and it's very easy to identify the people who slowplay on purpose - and it's always the TOs task to deal with them accordingly, clock or no.

 Vaktathi wrote:

But in 40k? 40k is a comparative mess, built inherently around attritional battle, and clocks are just going to add to that mess

40k is really comparatively simple. There's more of it, but in terms of what happens, enough is abstracted to where there really aren't as many individual moments of agency or really even as many things to track as Warmachine. I'd suggest if these are the kinds of problems being seen in the competitive scene, then its worth finding ways to improve the situation. Tokens to track activations for example are a good way to speed up getting through your turn without missing anything. Make them double sided and its pretty easy to "flip everything blue" to move and "flip everything red" to shoot.

If people really want 40k tournaments then there's a lot of work that needs to be done to manage simple logistics of a large game in a constrained time. Warmachine fought all these fights. Tracking game state was a thing for a while, time equity was a thing, measurement controversies had their time, but the community worked through them. Really, the important difference was at the end of the day, someone official from PP put out a document that says; hey, this is what worked, so its the way its going to be from now on. Chess Clocks started as an optional rule that became the default because once players started using them, they realized they worked and overall improved the experience. I suspect 40k would largely find the same, even if it might take a year or so to work out the bugs.

Guys, theres the Tournament Discussion if you want to discuss about clocks, do we really need two threads to discuss the same thing? Can we leave this thread to discuss the lists, the combinations, the changes in the meta, etc...?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think that question depends on how bad of a problem slow play really is, which is something we don't have much data for.

Based on my experience at NOVA, watching for slow play on the tables around me (because I find watching armies and games in general very fun) as well as my own games, I would say it's fairly uncommon, and when it does happen, it's painfully obvious.

One would see things like someone rolling 5+ invuln saves for a terminator squad 1 at a time after suffering like 8 wounds from a Baneblade Cannon, or making sure their conscripts were exactly 2" apart in a game without templates.

The largest issue is opponents not having a problem with this (and I understand why) and not calling a judge, and the second largest issue is that apparently the TOs/judges don't care anyways.

If slowplaying is really such a huge issue that it has to be micromanaged at every table by the judges, then clocks are probably the best solution. But in my experience, it's not nearly that bad.

We don't need data on slow playing. We know it occurs and that is enough to do something about it. Really - the majority of slow play is probably unintentional or subconscious bias - clocks would really help in this case because if you change the parameters to actually punish slow play ergo (you lose if you run out of time) - it forces you to play faster. It will make everyone play faster - maybe we will see turn 4 sometimes in a GD tournament. Maybe people will start learning their rules and the rules of other players armies if they know it's going to cost THEIR game time to suffer for having to look stuff up during the game.

I just don't see any reason to oppose the chess clock proposal unless you are:
- A slow player because it's hard for you to play fast (you need to get good)
- You play slow on purpose to give yourself an advantage (you won't be able to do this anymore with chess clocks) or subconsciously you do it (your subconscious bias will change when you are hurting yourself by slow playing).
- You trust in the good nature of human beings (you are a naive person.)
- You just don't want to be bothered with it (your laziness is interfering with progress - please step aside and redirect your efforts to something else)

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think that question depends on how bad of a problem slow play really is, which is something we don't have much data for.

Based on my experience at NOVA, watching for slow play on the tables around me (because I find watching armies and games in general very fun) as well as my own games, I would say it's fairly uncommon, and when it does happen, it's painfully obvious.

One would see things like someone rolling 5+ invuln saves for a terminator squad 1 at a time after suffering like 8 wounds from a Baneblade Cannon, or making sure their conscripts were exactly 2" apart in a game without templates.

The largest issue is opponents not having a problem with this (and I understand why) and not calling a judge, and the second largest issue is that apparently the TOs/judges don't care anyways.

If slowplaying is really such a huge issue that it has to be micromanaged at every table by the judges, then clocks are probably the best solution. But in my experience, it's not nearly that bad.

We don't need data on slow playing. We know it occurs and that is enough to do something about it. Really - the majority of slow play is probably unintentional or subconscious bias - clocks would really help in this case because if you change the parameters to actually punish slow play ergo (you lose if you run out of time) - it forces you to play faster. It will make everyone play faster - maybe we will see turn 4 sometimes in a GD tournament. Maybe people will start learning their rules and the rules of other players armies if they know it's going to cost THEIR game time to suffer for having to look stuff up during the game.

I just don't see any reason to oppose the chess clock proposal unless you are:
- A slow player because it's hard for you to play fast (you need to get good)
- You play slow on purpose to give yourself an advantage (you won't be able to do this anymore with chess clocks) or subconsciously you do it (your subconscious bias will change when you are hurting yourself by slow playing).
- You trust in the good nature of human beings (you are a naive person.)
- You just don't want to be bothered with it (your laziness is interfering with progress - please step aside and redirect your efforts to something else)

How about:
- You have been to a major tournament (unlike yourself) and know the fatigue and exhaustion that can happen after three days of drinking and gaming and know that adding yet another burden to the shoulders of a regular player for no benefit is silly.

 Galas wrote:
Guys, theres the Tournament Discussion if you want to discuss about clocks, do we really need two threads to discuss the same thing? Can we leave this thread to discuss the lists, the combinations, the changes in the meta, etc...?

Sure -
How about those 9 man Shining Spears units I was warning about...

Apparently only 1% of Dakka thinks SS are OP but they are the corner stone of the winning eldar list. I wonder if their opinion will change.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think that question depends on how bad of a problem slow play really is, which is something we don't have much data for.

Based on my experience at NOVA, watching for slow play on the tables around me (because I find watching armies and games in general very fun) as well as my own games, I would say it's fairly uncommon, and when it does happen, it's painfully obvious.

One would see things like someone rolling 5+ invuln saves for a terminator squad 1 at a time after suffering like 8 wounds from a Baneblade Cannon, or making sure their conscripts were exactly 2" apart in a game without templates.

The largest issue is opponents not having a problem with this (and I understand why) and not calling a judge, and the second largest issue is that apparently the TOs/judges don't care anyways.

If slowplaying is really such a huge issue that it has to be micromanaged at every table by the judges, then clocks are probably the best solution. But in my experience, it's not nearly that bad.

We don't need data on slow playing. We know it occurs and that is enough to do something about it. Really - the majority of slow play is probably unintentional or subconscious bias - clocks would really help in this case because if you change the parameters to actually punish slow play ergo (you lose if you run out of time) - it forces you to play faster. It will make everyone play faster - maybe we will see turn 4 sometimes in a GD tournament. Maybe people will start learning their rules and the rules of other players armies if they know it's going to cost THEIR game time to suffer for having to look stuff up during the game.

I just don't see any reason to oppose the chess clock proposal unless you are:
- A slow player because it's hard for you to play fast (you need to get good)
- You play slow on purpose to give yourself an advantage (you won't be able to do this anymore with chess clocks) or subconsciously you do it (your subconscious bias will change when you are hurting yourself by slow playing).
- You trust in the good nature of human beings (you are a naive person.)
- You just don't want to be bothered with it (your laziness is interfering with progress - please step aside and redirect your efforts to something else)

How about:
- You have been to a major tournament (unlike yourself) and know the fatigue and exhaustion that can happen after three days of drinking and gaming and know that adding yet another burden to the shoulders of a regular player for no benefit is silly.

That is also an irrelevant stance. You wont be able to push a button a few times a game because you are too drunk? or hung over? Holy crap man. Tell me you have something else.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Guys, theres the Tournament Discussion if you want to discuss about clocks, do we really need two threads to discuss the same thing? Can we leave this thread to discuss the lists, the combinations, the changes in the meta, etc...?

Sure -
How about those 9 man Shining Spears units I was warning about...

Apparently only 1% of Dakka thinks SS are OP but they are the corner stone of the winning eldar list. I wonder if their opinion will change.

There's a difference between "OP" and "top 5 OP in the game" though.

 Xenomancers wrote:

That is also an irrelevant stance. You wont be able to push a button a few times a game because you are too drunk? or hung over? Holy crap man. Tell me you have something else.

Drunk deathclock is the best deathclock.....

 Cream Tea wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Guys, theres the Tournament Discussion if you want to discuss about clocks, do we really need two threads to discuss the same thing? Can we leave this thread to discuss the lists, the combinations, the changes in the meta, etc...?

Sure -
How about those 9 man Shining Spears units I was warning about...

Apparently only 1% of Dakka thinks SS are OP but they are the corner stone of the winning eldar list. I wonder if their opinion will change.

There's a difference between "OP" and "top 5 OP in the game" though.

What is the difference?

If we play our league game Thursday night at the local store I can still slowplay you. Not like your going to take pictures of the board when we run out of time and resume next week.

Ran leagues for years. Never experienced this ever. And that was with notorious slow players. If you were going to play slow players you didn't go iinto the store before it was going to close, you would go well early into the day.