What do custodes know about marines that the rest of us don't?

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**Iracundus**

BrianDavion wrote:
Getting back on topic, when one reads the short story Magistrium, it's obvious Constine Valdor holds Primarchs in exceptionally low regard. and he considers, in light of the heresy, their creation to be a mistake. so yeah I suspect the custodes generally don't think very highly of space marines in general. this makes their support of Gulliman actually intreasting. if even the custodes are throwing the dice on a primarch and a new breed of space marines...

I don't think the Custodes have any say in this. For them to give the Emperor's sword to Guilliman to wield, suggests they must have received some form of communication/sign/dream/vision from the Emperor as I cannot see them disposing of their master's possessions without permission.

**jhe90**

Iracundus wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Getting back on topic, when one reads the short story Magistrium, it's obvious Constine Valdor holds Primarchs in exceptionally low regard. and he considers, in light of the heresy, their creation to be a mistake. so yeah I suspect the custodes generally don't think very highly of space marines in general. this makes their support of Gulliman actually intreasting. if even the custodes are throwing the dice on a primarch and a new breed of space marines...

I don't think the Custodes have any say in this. For them to give the Emperor's sword to Guilliman to wield, suggests they must have received some form of communication/sign/dream/vision from the Emperor as I cannot see them disposing of their master's possessions without permission.

They would not let him anyway near the throne if they did not want to. They despite being a primarch hold complete control of the inner Palace, security, and access.

No one else in 10,000 years was given the weapon. Not even during the scouring and such. Not vulkan during the beast.

Obviously somthing changed.

**Crazyterran**

Thought Guilliman got the Sword from Cawl, it was the thing Cawl was keeping on his flagship during Gathering Storm that pissed Abaddon off so much?

**jhe90**

Crazyterran wrote:
Thought Guilliman got the Sword from Cawl, it was the thing Cawl was keeping on his flagship during Gathering Storm that pissed Abaddon off so much?

Well the sword is kinda massively powerful and it's particularly lethal vs deamons.

Even when Guliman uses it he feels it has capability he cannot unlock, In his hands, the powerful weapon could unlock its full strengh.

Not sure if flagship or Terra..
I know the weapon is quite potant vs deamons and chaos though.

**Iracundus**

Crazyterran wrote:
Thought Guilliman got the Sword from Cawl, it was the thing Cawl was keeping on his flagship during Gathering Storm that pissed Abaddon off so much?

There is conflict between Gathering Storm and the novel Dark Imperium. In Gathering Storm, Guilliman had it upon revival. In Dark Imperium on page 309, it is described as being taken "from the Emperor's withered knee and presented to Guilliman by the Captain-General of the Adeptus Custodes."

One possible reconciliation between these is that Guilliman had it, presented to the Emperor. The Custodes laid it on the Emperor's knee. Maybe it was just ceremony, or maybe it was re-empowered/recharged in some way. Then when the audience was finished, the sword was presented again to Guilliman.

**pm713**

They're already making inconsistencies? Wow.

**Iracundus**

pm713 wrote:
They're already making inconsistencies? Wow.

Of course they are. The authors at GW and BL make errors both great and small. I've spotted big continuity/plot errors in Gav Thorpe's Eldar novels and pointed them out on his blog. The Gathering Storm and Watchers of the Throne novel are in conflict over the sequence of events with the former seemingly portraying Guilliman arriving to a normally functioning Terra, whereas the latter appears to portray him arriving in the midst of the daemonic invasion of Terra.

I swear I could probably do a better job of keeping track of their continuity for them than their current crew...but my day job pays more.

I think the real reason GW introduced the Chronostrife and stopped giving dates for events in the Codex releases is to avoid having to deal with continuity in the first place.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

tneva82 wrote:

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Grimgold wrote:
I thought the thunder warriors were attacked by super human warriors clad in black power armor, which nicely matches the description of the first legion of space marines, the dark angels, who immediately replaced the thunder warriors.The emperor was loathe to commit the Custodes to battles when he could expend less useful troops in their stead. That's exciting because some of the Primaris dark angels might be of pre-caliban stock, meaning they could know how that really went down.

The Thunder Warriors rebelled and the Custodes put them down. Any Primaris Dark Angels were likely only recruits at the time they were taken as well.

No Emperor decreed TW's time was up. Too unstable to be of use for next stage of Emperor's plan so they were to be put down replaced by marines who would have been replaced by something else had things gone as planned.

The Custodes Codexs (I know I know, more changing of stuff) mentions the TW finding out that was part of the plan and were upset that they were to be cast aside. So boom, Rebellion and the Custodes put them down.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
They're already making inconsistencies? Wow.

Welcome to Guy Haley.

Though to be perfectly fair, The Emperor's Legion by Chris Wright, describes Valoris as one hell of an ugly dude who uses a Spear, but his model he looks normal and uses an Ax. Plus the whole Custodes and SoS are supposed to be a combined force when they stomp around the Galaxy, but its Codex Adeptus Custodes, not Codex: Talons of the Emperor - Adeptus Custodes

**TwilightSparkles**

The Thunder Warriors found out about the genetic death clock built into them , hence the rebellion. The actual plan is they die out. Quickly.

Turns out the clock can be stalled , a storyline started in Outcast Dead.

Codex Custodes also covers the Custodes recruitment - Terra's noble houses offer up their infant sons to the Custodes , and the tech to create them is still in laboratories. Those who pass and are successfully modified leave their old identity behind and are so unrecognisable that it allows the noble houses to claim they have a Custode in their bloodline, when in reality most fail. So Custodes are 100% Terrans.

Lot of snippets in the Codex - they have a plan to destroy Phalanx if needed......

**BrianDavion**

in fairness my parents wouldn't reckonzige me today if they last saw me as a baby

**Formosa**

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I base my assessment on the fact they've not been mentioned in any context in... 20 years?

Not quite true, there was a very subtle nod to them, the audio book following vengeful spirit where the perpetual mother is looking for her child, and meets up with the ex lunar wolf, he notices a faded tatoo on her, an eye within a triangle, illuminati.

**Kid_Kyoto**

Formosa wrote:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I base my assessment on the fact they've not been mentioned in any context in... 20 years?

Not quite true, there was a very subtle nod to them, the audio book following vengeful spirit where the perpetual mother is looking for her child, and meets up with the ex lunar wolf, he notices a faded tatoo on her, an eye within a triangle, illuminati.

Codex Sensei confirmed!

Should I play an Illuminati warband or a fallen Grey Sensei...

**Formosa**

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Formosa wrote:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I base my assessment on the fact they've not been mentioned in any context in... 20 years?

Not quite true, there was a very subtle nod to them, the audio book following vengeful spirit where the perpetual mother is looking for her child, and meets up with the ex lunar wolf, he notices a faded tatoo on her, an eye within a triangle, illuminati.

Codex Sensei confirmed!

Should I play an Illuminati warband or a fallen Grey Sensei...

Wolf mother! Pretty sure that was the book! Aaaanyway, it did make me wonder if any other little nods were scattered around.

**Mr. Funktastic**

On a related note, are the Custodes believers of the Imperial Truth, that the Emperor isn't a god and never wanted to be worshiped as such? If so I can only imagine how they view the rest of the Imperium.

**Audustum**

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
On a related note, are the Custodes believers of the Imperial Truth, that the Emperor isn't a god and never wanted to be worshiped as such? If so I can only imagine how they view the rest of the Imperium.

Absolutely. Aside from the Primarchs, they knew him best as an actual person and had the most face time with him. They're definitely old school Imperial Truth.

**Mr. Funktastic**

Even the newer Custodes that weren't around during the Heresy? Makes sense, especially since they essentially have their own culture and they more or less operate separately from the rest of the Imperium. Since they're raised since infancy the Imperial Truth is probably all they've known, even in the current setting.

**Audustum**

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
Even the newer Custodes that weren't around during the Heresy? Makes sense, especially since they essentially have their own culture and they more or less operate separately from the rest of the Imperium. Since they're raised since infancy the Imperial Truth is probably all they've known, even in the current setting.

They still hang out in the Palace all the time and, according to Guilliman, Emps can still talk to people in the throne room if he wants to. It's not improbable that they feel his will all over the place. Older Custodes probably fill in the rest with stories.

**slade the sniper**

Audustum wrote:
Mr. Funktastic wrote:
Even the newer Custodes that weren't around during the Heresy? Makes sense, especially since they essentially have their own culture and they more or less operate separately from the rest of the Imperium. Since they're raised since infancy the Imperial Truth is probably all they've known, even in the current setting.

They still hang out in the Palace all the time and, according to Guilliman, Emps can still talk to people in the throne room if he wants to. It's not improbable that they feel his will all over the place. Older Custodes probably fill in the rest with stories.

What? Where is this? So Emperor with a text to speech device is canon??? LOL

-STS

**tneva82**

If Inquisitor has been able to speak him that we know of why wouldn't he be able to talk somehow? Maybe not all the time(maybe it's very taxing or something) but complete silence has been debunked in novels loooong time ago.

**AnomanderRake**

tneva82 wrote:
If Inquisitor has been able to speak him that we know of why wouldn't he be able to talk somehow? Maybe not all the time(maybe it's very taxing or something) but complete silence has been debunked in novels loooong time ago.

Able != willing. Imagine for the moment the Emperor said "Here are some secrets, tell nobody about this conversation".

**Iracundus**

This is what it says about the Custodes from their Codex:

Each aspirant endures thousands of hours of such psycho-indoctrination and mnemic conditioning. Their education is mercilessly absolute, information beaten into the metal of their minds at a punishing rate that drives many mad. They must grasp not only the tenets of warfare in all its forms, and learn every method of assassination, counter-espionage, threat recognition and death dealing known to Mankind,but also expand their minds in far more esoteric directions. Diplomacy and statecraft, astrogation and interstellar geography, history, philosophy, theosophy, artistry and countless other subjects must all be mastered to a breathtakingly high degree.

Much of this education is a throwback to the days when the Custodians were expected not only to provide the Emperor with protection, but also counsel and conversation. It has become a tradition applied by rote, but still its benefits are apparent. Not only does such an avalanche of information screen out those whose psyches are not sufficiently robust, but it further ensures that–almost alone in a dark and dreadful age–the Adeptus Custodes retain the enlightenment and perspective commonplace during the Great Crusade. Of course,with such blessings comes a tragic comprehension of the depths to which the Imperium has sunk; it is a credit to the Adeptus Custodes that such a realisation does not drive them to despair.

Codex Adeptus Custodes, p. 14

**tneva82**

AnomanderRake wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
If Inquisitor has been able to speak him that we know of why wouldn't he be able to talk somehow? Maybe not all the time(maybe it's very taxing or something) but complete silence has been debunked in novels loooong time ago.

Able != willing. Imagine for the moment the Emperor said "Here are some secrets, tell nobody about this conversation".

Well yeah how much he wants to talk is of course another thing but seeing he seems to regard custodians about highest of stuff he's with(certainly higher than thunder warriors, marines or primarch) maybe he's less tight lipped with them giving some orders from time to time.

**An Actual Englishman**

How could anyone still believe the Imperial Truth while literally fighting the avatar of a malevolent god?

Surely cracks in your belief appear as to there being no gods or magic when you can literally see evidence of gods and magic all around you?

Or does the Imperial Truth rationalise even the gods of Chaos and the immaterium?

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I got the impression it was simply distrust from the whole Heresy. No Custodes (to my knowledge) have ever fallen, but nearly half of all Space Marines did. That's a good reason to distrust them.

Pretty much this.

Once bitten, twice shy.

**Kid_Kyoto**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
How could anyone still believe the Imperial Truth while literally fighting the avatar of a malevolent god?

Surely cracks in your belief appear as to there being no gods or magic when you can literally see evidence of gods and magic all around you?

Or does the Imperial Truth rationalise even the gods of Chaos and the immaterium?

What was it Terry Prachett wrote? It's hard to be an atheist when the gods go around breaking people's windows.

That being said, yeah it's like the old debate is comics. Is Thor (or whoever) a 'god' or just a really powerful extradimensional being?
Would an enlightened Imperial citizen consider a Hive Tyrant or Wraith Knight a god or avatar? If not then why consider a Bloodthrister or Plague Bearer anything other than an other-dimensional monster powered by ambient psychic energy.
It might be the same thing in practice, but they fit into very different points of view.
Also if the Emperor is not a god but just a really, really great guy, that explains why you have to work extra special hard to protect him.
As Captain Kirk once said, why does god need a space ship?

**Iracundus**

Post-Heresy I suspect the stance is more that these entities are not gods, in the sense of entities deserving of divine honors and worship, not that they don't exist.

**BrianDavion**

even at the highest levels of the IoM during the great crusade, chaos entities where known about (Horus for example knew chaos deamons existed) and yeah the party line was just "extra dimensional aliens"

**Umak**

Well, Chaos Gods really aren't "Gods" in the same sense that people thought about Gods in humanity's history. They're extra-dimensional parasites that feed on the emotions of humanity, and have gotten so powerful from this that they are able to basically cut lumps of themselves off and send those lumps off to do battle on their behalf. They can be understood from a scientific perspective, and thus are not "God" in the same sense, that, say, Jehovah is an all-powerful deity that created the Universe and can control everything in it.

**Iracundus**

Only monotheistic religions have ever really demanded their gods be all powerful or to have created the universe. Polytheistic religions of the past and the present seem perfectly happy with more limited or fallible gods.

Some ancient Greeks took the same stance with regards to the Greek gods. While not denying their existence, since there were so many phenomena they could not otherwise explain, they did argue the capricious and selfish gods of the Olympian pantheon were not entities deserving of worship or being granted divine honors of sacrifice and ritual. That the Olympians' behavior fell short of a certain moral threshold was the basis of their rejection rather than any requirement of having created the universe or any claim to omnipotence or omniscience.

**An Actual Englishman**

Lol i can just imagine the IoM propaganda on this;

- They're not gods, just interdimensional beings that are immortal and really, really powerful.
- That's not a daemon you fool! Clearly it's just a smaller interdimensional being that phases in and put of existence!
- Daemonic possession? Idiot! It's clearly an interdimensional parasite that feeds off the thoughts of its host and can merge with them.
- Is it magic or the application of the forces of another realm to create otherwise impossible effects in the real world?

Out of interest has GW ever confirmed one way or another or are they leaving it suitably vague? I kinda like the idea that the Chaos gods are both entities of another realm and gods in their own right. It kinda makes them more chaotic.

Back on topic I don't understand why the Custodes are all non psykers when they were made of the same stuff as the most powerful psyker in humanity's history?