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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 19:23:44
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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unitled wrote:
Yeah, why can't people shut up and let me enjoy this game about a fascist society who enforces their xenophobic law through state-sponsored violence without bringing politics into it?
Opinions are like penises. They are very nice and different in shapes and colours. You have your right to have yours, but please don't force it into my mouth if I don't ask for it.
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Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 19:27:19
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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unitled wrote:
Yeah, why can't people shut up and let me enjoy this game about a fascist society who enforces their xenophobic law through state-sponsored violence without bringing politics into it?
So I'm not allowed to play Chess without thinking about race? Or Othello?
If I play poker, because of the card being made of trees, and trees are being cut down, I should be thinking about the environment?
If I play Risk, I shouldn't be thinking about how to win/enjoy a BOARD GAME, but should instead by thinking about global politics and warfare?
Yeah, I believe there's a thing called "escapism". For some, 40k IS escapism, and I see no reason why that should be wrong. If someone doesn't want to bring politics into a board game for plastic toy soldiers, I think that's a reasonable request.
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They/them
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 19:30:23
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Numberless Necron Warrior
Scotland, UK
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I'm really not trying to force anything anywhere? Politics is a key part of 40k already.
People like to have representation in their media and to feel welcome participating in their hobby, whether that is in the various online spaces, the officially produced #content or in the physical gaming areas. Automatically Appended Next Post: Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Yeah, I believe there's a thing called "escapism". For some, 40k IS escapism, and I see no reason why that should be wrong. If someone doesn't want to bring politics into a board game for plastic toy soldiers, I think that's a reasonable request.
And surely everyone has the same right to that escapism? I've seen people get abuse for, as an example, converting their Grey Knights to be women. Where does their right to escapism come into it?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/03 19:32:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 19:33:23
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Posts with Authority
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Verviedi wrote:You are, in general, correct. But you have to consider the precise nature of why people get so angry. They are, perhaps rightfully, angry because they feel discriminated against. You have to remember that not everybody grew up in an environment like you did. I’d say such environments are very rare. Institutionalised racism means that in many places, while things may seem that way, they truly aren’t, because of different social norms and effects.
Not trying to be a jerk here, but when you say these environments are 'rare'- I have to ask if you've just lived in one place your whole life, or if you assume it. Contrary to what most people want to believe, our society is pretty good about putting aside our differences and getting along. Yes, I am sure discrimination exists- I've seen it and been victim to it. But actual 'institutionalized racism', or as I would prefer to see it- a culture more predominant in an area- is far more rare or concerning than you would believe.
And anecdotal? Most people I've seen complaining about institutionalized racism were responsible for their own piss-poor decisions.
Verviedi wrote:There is also the “equality to the privileged feels like oppression” effect. As I’m going to say for the third time in this thread, The root of the problem is that people are so used to seeing an all-majority cast in a media form, that when they see gay characters, or black/asian/indian/whatever characters, they immediately decide that it’s “pandering”, instead of thinking critically and wondering what a woman sees when they look at that game. Imagine looking at a game and all of the characters are minorities, or gay, and you can’t identify with any of them. That’s what women and minorities see on a daily basis. You’re not being discriminated against, you’re just not getting 100% representation at the cost of all else anymore.
Actually, where some people see the problem is not these characters- but seeing their favorite characters removed, and replaced with a character whose entire identity is little more than 'gay/black/muslim' or whatever, and then it's like they just have to accept that someone has been replaced by this Mary Sue. Most people don't take issue with diversity. They take issue with what they like being removed and replaced with 2-dimensional caricatures and told that it's 'diversity' and if they hate it, they're a bigot.
Verviedi wrote:People do not need “punishment” for discrimination or dominance in the past. They simply need to learn that they are not the only people on earth.
You say this like they're not aware. I think you might need to socialize with people beyond your area (and not rely on the internet for that).
Verviedi wrote:Re: Social Justice/RadFem - those things are unfortunately necessary to get rid of the past traces of societal/institutional discrimination. No change has ever been made through moderate means - there has always been a radical pushing a more extreme version of the change. Any change requires two elements in order to be effective - an extreme element, and a moderate element. The extreme element exists to threaten the status quo so much that the moderate change has to occur, to avoid revolution/societal collapse/extreme annoyance.
Yes, but- let me use a metaphor.
Dynamite is good at putting out oil fires in the oilfield. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna throw it on my stove when I have a small blaze. If I do, I'm gonna wreck my house and go to prison.
SocJus and RadFem might be useful in the areas that actually NEED these things (because we don't, we just have a few guys that make noise and say mean stuff from time to time). But anywhere RadFem and SocJus WOULD come in handy would have them getting a facefull of rocks or 7.62 and beheaded. A distatesful drawing that someone dislikes is not justification for Radical Feminists.
Egalitarianism is ideal. It's what I pursue. If equality- actual, equal opportunities for all- is not enough for you? IMHO you are an extremist, a supremacist... a few ideological wiggles from being a Nazi.
Verviedi wrote:Re: Marxist Theory - I know nothing about Marxist social theory, because I mostly almost only care about economic issues. I’m familiar with Marxist economic theory, never bothered even reading the TL;DR version of social theory.
Let me summarize for you: Academics that never worked somehow think that sharing everything will just work, people will just have to stop acting like people.
Verviedi wrote:Evangelicists can GTFO in general. I don’t use the game to recruit people into my ideology, neither should anyone else.
That behavior is what I see in the SocJus/RadFems that come at gaming. They don't care about gaming- but they see us as weak. Remember all those old stereotypes? That's what they think we are. They think we can be manipulated, and that's because literally no one else wants anything to do with these drama queens. And anyone who's not a fan is the 'heretic' (racist, bigot, etc.) They're here to get recruits, not recreation. Sounds tinfoil-hat, yeah- but how many of these idealogues were dedicated to gaming? It's funny how these 'issues' that they see... they're... the only ones seeing them.
Think about that last sentence.
Literally everyone else is just doing fine, and then someone shows up and claims all these problems are tearing up our communities... and they know how to fix them.
Snake Oil Sales.
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Mob Rule is not a rule. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 19:34:16
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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unitled wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Yeah, I believe there's a thing called "escapism". For some, 40k IS escapism, and I see no reason why that should be wrong. If someone doesn't want to bring politics into a board game for plastic toy soldiers, I think that's a reasonable request.
And surely everyone has the same right to that escapism? I've seen people get abuse for, as an example, converting their Grey Knights to be women. Where does their right to escapism come into it?
I have seen people abused for trying to bring Forgeworld models to a tournament. Dicks are dicks, it doesn't matter if the reason they are dicks is political or some sort of personal crusade. When something like that happens, call the bully out for his behaviour.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/03 19:35:09
Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 19:35:30
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Posts with Authority
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unitled wrote:I've seen people get abuse for, as an example, converting their Grey Knights to be women.
Negative criticism =/= Abuse.
Disliking something you made =/= Abuse
Don't expect every creation you make and show to get outpouring support.
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Mob Rule is not a rule. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 19:37:27
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Wicked Warp Spider
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unitled wrote:
Yeah, why can't people shut up and let me enjoy this game about a fascist society who enforces their xenophobic law through state-sponsored violence without bringing politics into it?
So.. you are suggesting that the satyrical aspect of 40k should be ignored, and the whole 40k should be changed in accordion to modern sensibilities?
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Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 19:39:36
Subject: Re:Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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Is not like female grey knights and female inquisitors in terminator armour would be distinguishable. (And before anyone ask, no, she is inside the torso with his arms crossed over his chest)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/03 19:40:14
Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 19:39:45
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Numberless Necron Warrior
Scotland, UK
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Galas wrote:
I have seen people abused for trying to bring Forgeworld models to a tournament. Dicks are dicks, it doesn't matter if the reason they are dicks is political or some sort of personal crusade.
I'd be 100% supportive of you starting a 'don't be a dick' group, even a specific 'don't be a dick to anyone who wants to use forgeworld models at an official event' group.
Honest question though: do you think anyone would target your group with abuse? Make videos on youtube about how your group is ruining the hobby? Start up groups focused on upsetting your members? Create pictures accusing you of being fat and ugly? Tell you you weren't a real fan of the game because you like forgeworld models? Have any thread discussing the group tell you it wasn't really needed, and everyone (the people giving you abuse for your opinion on forgeworld, and you for having an opinion) should just stop bothering them when they're trying to game?
Because literally every single one of these things has happened in feminist40k. It's an old cliche that any thread on feminism justifies the need for itself because of the responses to it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/03 19:41:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 19:39:58
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Dakka Veteran
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I'm still looking for proof that the institution, which I can only imagine is the government, is systematically enforcing racist and sexist rules. I need some evidence that DHS deems me more or less of a human because of my race or gender. Where's the policy? Just about every statute is public. Citation needed.
Edit: there is evidence that the system is rigged against a race and gender, just not that way that is being suggested. Women and minorities are actively protected by the government. Which I guess is a form of systemic, institutionalized racism and sexist. It just means you're lobbying for the empowered group, not the disadvantaged.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/03 19:44:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 19:43:16
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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unitled wrote: Galas wrote:
I have seen people abused for trying to bring Forgeworld models to a tournament. Dicks are dicks, it doesn't matter if the reason they are dicks is political or some sort of personal crusade.
I'd be 100% supportive of you starting a 'don't be a dick' group, even a specific 'don't be a dick to anyone who wants to use forgeworld models at an official event' group.
Honest question though: do you think anyone would target your group with abuse? Make videos on youtube about how your group is ruining the hobby? Start up groups focused on upsetting your members? Create pictures accusing you of being fat and ugly? Tell you you weren't a real fan of the game because you like forgeworld models? Have any thread discussing the group tell you it wasn't really needed, and everyone (the people giving you abuse for your opinion on forgeworld, and you for having an opinion) should just stop bothering them when they're trying to game?
Hmmm, I don't know in UK but in Spain, in the 2004-2008 period we had the Great Hobby War as I like to call it, where "Casuals" vs "Tournament/Competitive gamers" fight to see who where the TRUE WARHAMMER FANS. Tournament/Competitive ones won, and the Casuals retreated to their houses and local clubs to heal their wounds. Now we have reached a balance, but Competitive gaming is still the king here.
During that period I have seen everything you have just described here, from people searching for personal information of people of the other "side" to send them threats to their houses, paint penises with spray in their houses,etc...
And lets no start with the Warhammer Fantasy death and the AOS hecatomb, please.
What I want to say with this is... people can be extremely toxic to one another, but the reason why they are toxic is irrelevant. If theres no reason to fight, something will be created, divisions will be made, to allow for that fight to happen. Such is the nature of heresy, and this is why it is so hard to destroy
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/02/03 19:47:21
Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 19:44:37
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Posts with Authority
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unitled wrote:Because literally every single one of these things has happened in feminist40k. It's an old cliche that any thread on feminism justifies the need for itself because of the responses to it.
Circular Logic is a fallacy.
Let me elaborate.
Feminist 40k actually attacked the community. Anyone who disagreed with them, even politely, had their comments removed and were shamed. They actually told a woman that she should be grateful for them, otherwise gamers would be yanking her tits out at the table. They made false accusations of rape and death threats (to a bunch of dudes).
You think you can just do this and NOT piss people off?
Of course you're going to get ridiculed. And rightfully so.
They are not victims. Half of the things they claimed to have happened have ZERO evidence.
They embodied an idea, and that idea is not infallible. Ideas can be dissected, questioned, refuted, and ridiculed.
And if I'm not mistaken, they grabbed a picture of one individual and shamed HIM for being fat and ugly.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/03 19:47:05
Mob Rule is not a rule. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 19:46:26
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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unitled wrote:I'm really not trying to force anything anywhere? Fictional Politics is a key part of 40k already. People like to have representation in their media and to feel welcome participating in their hobby, whether that is in the various online spaces, the officially produced #content or in the physical gaming areas.
Fixed that for you. 40k is set incomprehensibly far away from our own time. Any politics they have are VERY far removed from us. We don't have daemons trying to murderfeth us everywhere we turn. We don't have actual aliens hell bent on crushing us from the stars. Their politics are just a backdrop, an excuse for having plastic soldiers fighting. It's not real. Representation, I agree on. To a degree. I'm not suggesting that "WHOEVER YOU ARE AND WHATEVER YOU LOOK LIKE MUST BE REPRESENTED". I mean, if that were the case, and you can ONLY play as what represents you, none of us would play anything except Imperial Guard, MAYBE at a pinch an Inquisitor or Sister of Battle. As far as I see it, the setting is largely fine. There's a few things I'd change for gender's sake (confirm Knights as being polygender, allow the more personalised and bespoke Custodes as being poly too), but that's the setting sorted. Don't forget, setting wise, everything except Sisters of Battle, Sisters of Silence, Space Marines, Chaos Space Marine and Custodes are the only confirmed MONO ONLY factions. And if we're thinking about how many make up each faction in universe, there are probably more Sisters in one Order than every Loyalist Chapter combined. 1,000,000 Sisters per Major Order? It's not implausible, I think (correct me if wrong!) Chaos are a little strange too - due to the whole warpyness of them all and "unorthodox" methods of creation/augmentation, I'd far more readily accept female CSM than female SM. And, as I said, I would rather Custodes be poly, rather than mono. So, when all's said and done, we have lots of polygender factions (stuff like Harlequins, AdMech, Guardsmen, Militarum, Inquisition, Eldar, Tau, etc etc), lots of agender factions (Orks, Daemons, Tyranids, Necrons to some extent - their higher ranking officers identify by male and female genders, but no physiological difference), and four/five monogender factions, with a 3:2 Male:Female ratio. Not that bad, on paper! The issue is in the representation IRL - not in the setting. IRL, we have so many SM factions, splinters of a rare and elite group hardly any in-universe ever see. We don't have a great access to discernible female parts for Guardsmen or Harlequins (I think?), and both kinds of Sisters are so obscure and limited in opportunity for collection that it's shameful. So, no, I still disagree with you. The setting being xenophobic, being totalitarian, being regressive, DOESN'T MATTER. What matters is that it's not being represented accurately in the real world, because somehow, it's MORE regressive IRL than in the lore. EDITED for spelling.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/02/03 19:50:33
They/them
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 19:47:14
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Institutional racism is evident in the actions of police (the amount of minorities killed/detained versus white people), the poverty rate (minorities have higher poverty rates than whites), the prison system (far more incarcerated minorities), attitude towards white Christian immigrants versus nonwhite immigrants, etc.
It is also evident in the subconcious of many people - people tend to associate minorities more with crime and poverty, and things like that.
It isn’t segregation or slavery, but it’s still pretty terrible.
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Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 19:49:20
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Angered Reaver Arena Champion
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Formosa wrote: Eldarsif wrote:Those arguing that men are oversexualized in comic are obviously not women as these masculine representations are almost all the time power fantasies for men. Unless you want to argue that heterosexual men know what women want - insert Mel Gibson movie joke -.
Women in comics have historically been drawn for heterosexual men which is why they are oversexualized and put into impossible poses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ozf2hwEOWHE
If you want to see how something is oversexualized for certain groups of gay men I suggest checking out the works of Tom of Finland. If you really want to draw parallels between Tom's work and hypermuscular men in comics then there is really nothing to discuss. Discussion without nuance is no discussion at all.
I am seriously shaking my head at the idea that some guys are arguing that I should find Jim Lee's Batman sexualized and attractive. There is literally nothing attractive about that Batman or Batman in general.
And now you are guilty of the same old thing as others, assuming who finds what sexy, YOU dont find batman sexy, woman do, not all woman, but some do.
And yes the same old tired "power fantasy" trope comes out to play, but again, double standards are kicking in, how is wonder woman not a power fantasy but superman is?
My sister loves how "sexy and strong" wonder woman is, her words, My older Niece loves catwoman and thinks someone that "badass" wouldnt give a crap and would use how she looks as a weapon (again, her take on it).
So shake your head all you like, because you are making the generalisations here AND assuming you know what woman want and how they think, let alone what anyone finds "sexy"
If I have misunderstood what you are saying, I apologise in advance.
You are assuming that there haven't been changes in the comic industry to address these issues we are talking about(changes that some here have voiced complaints about as some SJW conspiracy because there is apparently always some conspiracy agenda). Also, the original argument was that Batman is sexy and I was refuting that. Now, if we want to talk about whether Christian Bale is sexy I am all for it, no argument from me there. You are however going into a completely different direction with the argument. However, I am a kind mistress so I'll address some of your points.
Wonder Woman has taken huge changes in the past 10 years and with the new Wonder Woman film I could argue that we have a new feminist icon. Is it flawed? Sure, but I know victories and changes are done in steps at a time. Catwoman has also taken some strides, but Wonder Woman is still far ahead(but I did like Nolan's Catwoman), but Catwoman will most likely continue to evolve like all other characters with the changing of times. This does not change the fact that artists tend to draw a lot of female superheroes in suggestive and seductive poses that are very obviously objectifying and oversexualized(again, this is slowly changing, but it is changing because fans are voicing their concerns). This is in stark comparison to the male superhero who stands stoically watching his city for crime. I mean, I would love to see how many men could tantalize their partners standing stoic with one foot on a small stool, just standing there staring into oblivion and not acknowledging your existence. I mean, it could work in some BDSM roleplays for sure. You could maybe argue Batman is sexy in a rubber fetish way, but even then it's a bit of a stretch(latex pun intended), but who knows there might be a rubber fetishist out there that finds it sexy. I can't really argue against that.
Unrelated to all this I just want more women in wargaming and plastic sisters. Sadly I know way too many women that have avoided and/or left wargaming due to attitudes in the community. Now, before someone starts to accuse me of arguing about toxicity in the community I would like to point out that it only requires a few to make the community unwelcome. When somebody finds the community unwelcome it may very well be a minority that is causing it, but the problem is still there. Which gives us two options: A ) Somebody opens discussion about it and we help each other to change it or B ) We silence those voices. When women and other minority groups are opening a dialogue it is because they want to expand the community. However, if they just get called SJW or whatever buzzword is popular at the time it is the community saying that they are not welcome, even though it is just a few individuals.
Ultimately I tend to avoid these discussions as I know they will get nowhere. Most of the changes are done on the macro level which is why I am personally glad to see underrepresented and new groups taking their thoughts and ideas straight to GW. Also, with the new way GW is run I can imagine there might be changes coming over the years. It will be baby steps, but they will be changes. Who knows, maybe in 10 years we'll be in an ever better state. I can only hope to be there to see it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 19:54:03
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Dakka Veteran
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Institutionalized cannot be individual. There must be overwhelming evidence in both action and policy to demonstrate it. To simply point at the system and claim it is a problem discounts every other contributing factor.
Saying the system is racist or sexist simply insulates individuals away from the consequence of their decisions. Because the action does not matter, the system got you and the outcome was already determined.
So again, show me overwhelming action and policy demonstrating that the system is rigged against these people. I can point at policy showing it is rigged in their favor.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 19:54:04
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Numberless Necron Warrior
Scotland, UK
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Adeptus Doritos wrote: unitled wrote:Because literally every single one of these things has happened in feminist40k. It's an old cliche that any thread on feminism justifies the need for itself because of the responses to it.
Circular Logic is a fallacy.
Let me elaborate.
Feminist 40k actually attacked the community. Anyone who disagreed with them, even politely, had their comments removed and were shamed. They actually told a woman that she should be grateful for them, otherwise gamers would be yanking her tits out at the table. They made false accusations of rape and death threats (to a bunch of dudes).
You think you can just do this and NOT piss people off?
Of course you're going to get ridiculed. And rightfully so.
They are not victims. Half of the things they claimed to have happened have ZERO evidence.
They embodied an idea, and that idea is not infallible. Ideas can be dissected, questioned, refuted, and ridiculed.
And if I'm not mistaken, they grabbed a picture of one individual and shamed HIM for being fat and ugly.
I must admit Ive only been in the feminist40k fb group for maybe 6 months but Ive seen literlly none of the things you have mentioned. If this is what the group has done historically Im very happy to condemn it. Consider my comments rather supportive more broadly of feminism in 40k than a particular group who may or may not be feminists.
My comments on politics out of games were intended to be more lighthearted due to the irony of wanting such a politicised fictional world to be render immune from politics outside it, but remember the nugget of it was always a satire of real world politics,especially in the 80s. Along very similar lines to 2000ad!
That all said,Ive seen a depressing number of people posting pictures of T**** as the god emperor recentlt too... Somehow missing the point entirely.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/03 19:55:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 19:55:11
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
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..Was there a reason you censored Trump?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 19:55:28
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Dakka Veteran
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Eldarsif wrote:
I am seriously shaking my head at the idea that some guys are arguing that I should find Jim Lee's Batman sexualized and attractive. There is literally nothing attractive about that Batman or Batman in general.
ooh. now them thar's fightin' words!
You've obviously not seen Batman dance.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 19:56:34
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Purifying Tempest wrote:Institutionalized cannot be individual. There must be overwhelming evidence in both action and policy to demonstrate it. To simply point at the system and claim it is a problem discounts every other contributing factor.
Saying the system is racist or sexist simply insulates individuals away from the consequence of their decisions. Because the action does not matter, the system got you and the outcome was already determined.
So again, show me overwhelming action and policy demonstrating that the system is rigged against these people. I can point at policy showing it is rigged in their favor.
If the system is “rigged in their favor”, why is there increased police brutality, poverty rates, and incarceration rates amongst minorities? Why do judges give minorities harsher sentences than whites?
Institutional racism is also racism by individuals or informal social groups,[1] governed by behavioral norms that support racist thinking and foment active racism. It is reflected in disparities regarding wealth, income, criminal justice, employment, housing, health care, political power and education, among other things.
Source, the definition of instutuionalized racism.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/03 20:00:52
Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 20:01:49
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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pismakron wrote:
Okay? And if it said something else, it would make a difference somehow?
Well, it would prevent similar deluge of 'lore concerned' whiners that appear every time when someone wants to convert a female space marine plaguing future attempt to create female Custodes.
And overall, this was a good opportunity to give players a lore friendly way to have female superhuman soldiers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 20:03:23
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Crimson wrote:pismakron wrote:
Okay? And if it said something else, it would make a difference somehow?
Well, it would prevent similar deluge of 'lore concerned' whiners that appear every time when someone wants to convert a female space marine plaguing future attempt to create female Custodes.
And overall, this was a good opportunity to give players a lore friendly way to have female superhuman soldiers.
I think it's also a good idea purely due to the level of care that goes into each Custodian. More personalisation, more power to the player.
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They/them
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 20:04:00
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Skalathrax8 wrote:
Although i agree its stupid, the lore of custodes has been around for atleast 15 years
But was it previously stated that they recruit exclusively boys?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 20:04:43
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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Well, we at least have Valdor and his egg-shaped head. I don't know if that even counts as a male Custodes... so alien.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/03 20:04:59
Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 20:09:17
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Posts with Authority
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That's not evidence of institutionalized racism. For perspective, it's not like the prisons are just full of people the cops nabbed up on the streets at random. I'm pretty sure we have a trial system where you must be found guilty beyond reasonable doubt based on evidence.
Seeing a problem and labeling the cause of it 'racism' without actual evidence that it's racism is just grasping at straws and not dealing with the core of the actual issues.
Eldarsif wrote:You are assuming that there haven't been changes in the comic industry to address these issues we are talking about(changes that some here have voiced complaints about as some SJW conspiracy because there is apparently always some conspiracy agenda). Also, the original argument was that Batman is sexy and I was refuting that. Now, if we want to talk about whether Christian Bale is sexy I am all for it, no argument from me there. You are however going into a completely different direction with the argument. However, I am a kind mistress so I'll address some of your points.
YOU don't find Batman sexy. That's still not making it a universal truth. It still doesn't address the issue- why aren't male superheroes drawn balding? With potbellies? Skinny arms? Oh, wait, it's because we're idealizing the human form. It's okay for guys to like big, unrealistic breasts. It's okay for people to draw them. It's okay if you dislike them. If you don't like them, feel free to express that but please don't dress it up like it's 'damaging' women. If anyone gets damaged by cartoon drawings, they need to get professional help or life's going to suck when they encounter REAL people that look sexy.
Eldarsif wrote:Unrelated to all this I just want more women in wargaming and plastic sisters. Sadly I know way too many women that have avoided and/or left wargaming due to attitudes in the community. Now, before someone starts to accuse me of arguing about toxicity in the community I would like to point out that it only requires a few to make the community unwelcome. When somebody finds the community unwelcome it may very well be a minority that is causing it, but the problem is still there. Which gives us two options: A ) Somebody opens discussion about it and we help each other to change it or B ) We silence those voices. When women and other minority groups are opening a dialogue it is because they want to expand the community. However, if they just get called SJW or whatever buzzword is popular at the time it is the community saying that they are not welcome, even though it is just a few individuals.
All right, let me help you out here. Perspective- I'm not saying YOU do this. But hear me out:
Is there a problem in your community? If so, deal with it. Like you said, it's a very small number. Should be easy enough to handle, right? Going online and asking for sympathies is not asking for results. Results only happen when you take action. If someone is being a pig or a perv, deal with it. Most times I've seen this, the person is mentally ill or has some severe social problem. Deal with it, and if it persists? Start naming the places.
Call me a jerk, but all these horrid stories about places where women have been made to feel unwelcome- and not a single one of them has the courage to name the place. In the era of Social Media, where something like that can QUICKLY have a store owner dealing with the problem, it's like this never happens.
But a word of advice: Shotgun-blasting an entire community and telling them how they're full of racists and sexists? Yeah, good luck getting your voice heard. You wanna roll up into a hobby I enjoy, without knowing me or my thoughts, and label me some sort of bigot? Or even better- a 'Basement dwelling neckbeard virgin'- you know, like the sort of thing an outsider would say that doesn't know anything about the hobby or the actual people in it? Yeah, you're gonna get hostility.
More perspective: I go into a pub for the first time. "Wow, all this baseball stuff is so awesome. But you know, it'd be better if this were also a basketball theme!" People are going to look at me like "Who the hell are you?" And if all I do is complain about the people there- you're damned right I'm gonna feel unwelcome after a bit. I SHOULD.
I don't want 'more women' in gaming- I want more gamers in gaming. I don't care if they're women, men, black, or white. I want them to be here because what we have is awesome to them, and they want to have fun. I'm not in the business of specifically recruiting demographics. Literally no one is unwelcome at any of my tables, unless you're a troublemaker or drama-queen (or you put ranch on pizza).
Again, I say- if you are having difficulty with women being a part of your community- I don't know what to tell you. I'm an a-hole and I've never had a group that didn't have women in it. Maybe the more 'feminist' communities are just full of a certain type of guy, and as I understand those types aren't very... appealing to the opposite sex.
But yeah, I also want plastic sisters. If for no other reason than I'm sick of hearing people bring it up all the time.
But kudos, at least you're not calling people sexists because we don't want female space marines.
Crimson wrote:Well, it would prevent similar deluge of 'lore concerned' whiners that appear every time when someone wants to convert a female space marine plaguing future attempt to create female Custodes.
If people not liking what you create concerns you that much, to a point where you won't do it- then perhaps you are in the hobby for the wrong reasons.
I use Heresy-Era armor on my CSM. A lot of people dislike it.
I don't care, because I am in this for myself and not to provide others with a service.
unitled wrote:I must admit Ive only been in the feminist40k fb group for maybe 6 months but Ive seen literlly none of the things you have mentioned. If this is what the group has done historically Im very happy to condemn it. Consider my comments rather supportive more broadly of feminism in 40k than a particular group who may or may not be feminists.
Then I challenge you to disagree with them. Firm, but polite.
Watch your comments get zapped.
unitled wrote:That all said,Ive seen a depressing number of people posting pictures of T**** as the god emperor recentlt too... Somehow missing the point entirely.
It's also a satire joke, man. Most of the Trump memes are just out there to be absurd. Triggering people on the fringe left is just a bonus.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/03 20:14:38
Mob Rule is not a rule. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 20:15:48
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Dakka Veteran
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Again, demonstrated which institution is racist, point a finger at it... demonstrate HOW they qualify as justly deserving the title, and I will gladly grab some prometheum and we can all happily purge some rather unsavory aspects of society.
Is it so odd to look at what the police does as a consequence to the actions of people? Is it odd to consider that a judge looks beyond the simple act and looks into the motives and intents of the accused when deciding on a sentence? Are poverty rates tied to the policy of an organization or the actions of a people, or even individuals? Plenty of people fail in life. People from all races and cultures find themselves 1-upped by the machine. Is that machine discriminatory towards them as a race, or them as individuals? Is it because of their race, or because of their choices? Are Ben Carson, Colon Powell, Tiger Woods, Barack Obama, all these examples of powerful men from a "systemically disadvantaged" group the results of their race... did they sell out to the system to make their way, or did they simply make good decisions that made them competitive in life?
Just like in 40k, I was not offered a range of models that I was 100% content with. I wanted some female representation in my forces, because I like the notion and the story of powerful people doing powerful things, regardless of race or gender. Everyone loves an underdog story. In the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium there are still INDIVIDUALS succeeding regardless of the galaxy burning around them. The gender simply allows one to stamp a narrative to their own army, to personalize and customize it.
GW gave us a medium to express that, and the not-so-subtle nudge to take it beyond gray plastic pieces of a spru. That's why they make green stuff and sell it to you. If you want to play Farseer Macha and are upset because HER MODEL is not represented, then make it. Make a good decision instead of sitting on your butts and bitching that the model doesn't exist.
See? Decision-based outcome. The "system" was rigged against me, because I have no Farseer Macha. I could complain until GW made the model, but I'd probably be dead or long moved on from the hobby. Instead, I could just... create my own. Much like a business in the real world. And if I do a great job, maybe others will want me to make them one, or make their own. The idea spreads enough that maybe, just maybe, one day GW says: wow, Macha is super popular. We always see kitbashed Macha's on the table. We are losing revenue over a very easy, simple sculpt. Then guess what? YOU HAVE AN OFFICIAL MACHA KIT! I affected the system by showing them a demand for something they didn't know they needed. And I never once had to shout foul or cry over it. I simply did what GW told me to do: make my army MY ARMY. Automatically Appended Next Post: Evidence of what you can do with ALL GW supplied pieces:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1etKSL18lRPpWtmCNFrUb1qMHpz7yVspP
Make your army yours, stop waiting for GW to do it for you.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/03 20:19:18
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 20:19:37
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Numberless Necron Warrior
Scotland, UK
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Adeptus Doritos wrote: unitled wrote:I must admit Ive only been in the feminist40k fb group for maybe 6 months but Ive seen literlly none of the things you have mentioned. If this is what the group has done historically Im very happy to condemn it. Consider my comments rather supportive more broadly of feminism in 40k than a particular group who may or may not be feminists.
Then I challenge you to disagree with them. Firm, but polite.
Watch your comments get zapped.
unitled wrote:That all said,Ive seen a depressing number of people posting pictures of T**** as the god emperor recentlt too... Somehow missing the point entirely.
It's also a satire joke, man. Most of the Trump memes are just out there to be absurd. Triggering people on the fringe left is just a bonus.
What am I disagreeing with them on? Like I say, I've only been in the group 6 months or so and I haven't seen anything other feminists largely enjoying their hobby? People sharing their models and paintjobs.
Also, 'triggered'? Really?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 20:19:43
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Posts with Authority
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Purifying Tempest wrote:GW gave us a medium to express that, and the not-so-subtle nudge to take it beyond gray plastic pieces of a spru. That's why they make green stuff and sell it to you. If you want to play Farseer Macha and are upset because HER MODEL is not represented, then make it. Make a good decision instead of sitting on your butts and bitching that the model doesn't exist.
I disliked that Black Templars didn't have decent 'Crusader' helmets. I fixed that. I didn't demand GW make it.
It's that, "I'd like that better if it had a little improvement here" thing that keeps all those third-party guys in Poland in business, and I like it that way.
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Mob Rule is not a rule. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 20:23:03
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Damsel of the Lady
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Verviedi wrote:Purifying Tempest wrote:Institutionalized cannot be individual. There must be overwhelming evidence in both action and policy to demonstrate it. To simply point at the system and claim it is a problem discounts every other contributing factor.
Saying the system is racist or sexist simply insulates individuals away from the consequence of their decisions. Because the action does not matter, the system got you and the outcome was already determined.
So again, show me overwhelming action and policy demonstrating that the system is rigged against these people. I can point at policy showing it is rigged in their favor.
If the system is “rigged in their favor”, why is there increased police brutality, poverty rates, and incarceration rates amongst minorities? Why do judges give minorities harsher sentences than whites?
Institutional racism is also racism by individuals or informal social groups,[1] governed by behavioral norms that support racist thinking and foment active racism. It is reflected in disparities regarding wealth, income, criminal justice, employment, housing, health care, political power and education, among other things.
Source, the definition of instutuionalized racism.
This is just blatantly wrong.
Police are more likely to use minor force, such as their hands, handcuffs and pointing of weapons against blacks, but it's not by a lot. (Point weapon is 54 incidences to 43, pepper spray or baton is 5 to 4, handcuffs is 310 to 266, e.t.c.). Regarding what most people would call police brutality, actual violence and shooting, data says there is the OPPOSITE: police are more likely to shoot whites than anyone else. Specifically, that officers are more likely to shoot whites WITHOUT being attacked first than other racial groups. This is from a study conducted by Roland G. Fryer, Jr. of Harvard, who called it "the most surprising result of my career". Even the New York Times wrote that the "result contradicts the image of police shootings that many Americans hold...".
You can read the draft paper he wrote here: http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399?utm_campaign=ntw&utm_medium=email&utm_source=ntw
Poverty rates are fluid but they don't apply to all minorities equally, same for incarceration rates. Regarding poverty, Non-Hispanic Whites and Asians are fairly close (8.8% and 10.1%). Non-White Hispanics and Blacks are the outliers: 22% for Blacks and 19.4% for Non-White Hispanics. Source:
http://federalsafetynet.com/us-poverty-statistics.html
There are non-racial explanations for this, however. In the case of Non-White Hispanics, many of them are non-citizen residents. This class of individual is MUCH more likely to live in poverty (12.3% of native born citizens in poverty vs. 19.5% foreign born non-citizens and 10% for naturalized citizens). By contrast, Black poverty can be explained by high incarceration and prevalence of criminal records, which I'll get to next.
Non-Hispanic Whites are 39% of our incarcerated population. Non-White Hispanics are 19%. Blacks are 40%.
https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/rates.html
The reason for this goes directly to your question about judges: Judges are not racist and don't just punish Blacks more because we're all closet racists. They do it because of mandatory minimums.
http://famm.org/mandatory-minimums/
The most famous example of which are crack vs. cocaine. Blacks and urban people are more likely to use crack than cocaine. Crack has a higher mandatory minimum. The law is dumb and it's having a racial consequence simply due to favored use trends in different regions of the United States, but that doesn't mean it was motivated by race or that things are rigged against minorities.
Institutionalized racism is a myth born from surface level analysis. There's always gonna be some people who are actually racists (or jerks/morons, take your pick), but the idea that there is some huge institutional, ingrained racism is nothing but a fictional talking point and shouldn't be governing a miniature war game.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/03 20:24:00
Subject: Why Does Feminist 40k Matter?
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Posts with Authority
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unitled wrote:What am I disagreeing with them on? Like I say, I've only been in the group 6 months or so and I haven't seen anything other feminists largely enjoying their hobby? People sharing their models and paintjobs.
1- Say you think Space Marines should all be men, and that Sisters should all be women. Just do that and watch what happens. If not this, find any point they make and dispute it POLITELY. Watch.
2- Ask what happened to their feminist cosplayer that left and took people with her.
Easier than saying "Sending them into hysterics for the lulz"
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Mob Rule is not a rule. |
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