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 Lance845 wrote:
See, I was super happy they killed Snoak without an explanation of who he was, and that Rey's parents were nobody.

I felt like SW has been so bogged down in this one families story. It's all blood lines and destiny and blah blah. This movie was a breath of fresh air. A clean break. The first step on a new path that allows them to move forward and tell new stories.

Who is Snoak? Doesn't matter hes dead. Who were Rey's parents? Drunks. Nobodys. Doesn't matter, their dead. The last shot of the film shows a little kid who is also nobody pull the broom into his hand with the force, hold it like a lightsaber and look off into an expanse of stars. The heroes can be anybody. They don't have to come from anywhere. And there is an entire galaxy of places it can go.

If SW ended right there with the boundless potential before it it would be a good ending. If they take this clean break and run with it to give us things that are new than good. Thats what I want.

My circle all felt more or less the same.

How did they feel about Leia slapping Poe for doing exactly what she rewarded Luke for several decades earlier?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
Look, not everyone who hates tlj and fa are mysogynists. But you cannot claim that a bunch of them were not out there making derogatory comments and bashing on rey for having tits.

You are not a woman hater for disliking the movies. But criticising the people who hate the movies because they ARE woman haters is fair. If its not you who is woman hating then they are not talking about you when they are laying into them.

I guess that explains why Wonder Woman tanked as well... oh, wait, it DIDN'T. That pretty well puts a stake in the heart of your argument.

And don't go claiming people hated TLJ it heavily featured a black character either, because Black Panther has done quite well and disproves THAT argument as well.

It's pretty hard to say that misogynists didn't toss themselves gleefully into the Last Jedi hate when there's literally a 'fan' cut of the movie that demotes/removes all the parts not played by a dude.

 Vulcan wrote:


How did they feel about Leia slapping Poe for doing exactly what she rewarded Luke for several decades earlier?

I know it's seemingly hard to believe, but everyone was just fine with the whole movie. Fine to really happy. As said before, SW has always been dumb. It's always had dumb jokes. It's always had weird crap that doesn't make sense. It's always been fantasy. It's always been made "for all ages" (despite having a lot of dismemberment in it).

Big fans of starwars had this story in their head of what more starwars could be. They have been reading books, playing games, and everything else for years. Nothing they released would ever match up to what everyone thought it could be. On top of that the kids who enjoyed all the dumb stuff before have grown up. Despite how dumb the ewoks are, or Leia's barely a character in 3 movies, or luke's miraculous mastery of skills as he needs them, all of that is given a pass under nostalgia.

I mean you COULD just reasonably say that Leia has GROWN UP in 30 years and learned some lessons and is now trying to stop these hot shot lil gaks from firing off half cocked instead of listening to the older "wiser" generation. You COULD also just say these characters are people and people make mistakes. But no. When it comes to the people who dislike these movies it's always why arn't these people perfectly acting exactly the same as they did 30 years ago or exactly the way YOU think they should based on your own head cannon and/or 30 years of expanded material.

You don't have to like it. And thats fine. If the new starwars movies are not to your liking then they are apparently not for you and you should stop going to see them and giving them your money. The DC comic movies are not for me. I like Batman, but I am tired of watching Batman use guns and kill people. I move along. You should too. But enough people really liked it that it made a metric gak ton of money and the director was given a whole trilogy. You are just going to have to find something else to watch.

 Spinner wrote:
It's pretty hard to say that misogynists didn't toss themselves gleefully into the Last Jedi hate when there's literally a 'fan' cut of the movie that demotes/removes all the parts not played by a dude.

I'll grant you that. There are misogynists who are quite public about hating female characters in TLJ.

It doesn't make the female characters in TLJ any stronger, not even tearing down the male characters can make weak characters strong. In other words, if you don't like misogyny, misandry is not the solution.

Now Leia in the first trilogy, THERE was a strong female character. Gunning down stormtroopers... with the blaster equivalent of a .22 pistol. Rescuing her rescuers when their rescue goes wrong. Undergoing torture and witnessing the destruction of her home and everything she knows without flinching from her purpose. Even surviving being stripped naked and being chained to Jabba in that ridiculous outfit doesn't slow her down, she just strangles Jabba with the very chain he used to enslave her.

In comparison, Rey has spent the past two movies puppy-dogging around behind men (first Finn, then Han, then Luke, and finally Kylo Ren) asking 'what is my place in all this?' She doesn't learn how to use the force like Anakin, Asoka Tano, Luke, and Kylo Ren do, she downloads it as Neo does in the Matrix because WOMAN! Holdo comes up with a stupid plan that gets 90% of the Resistance killed and that better than Poe because WOMAN!

Compare that with the female characters in, oh, Black Panther. All strong in their own right. T'Challa may be the hero, but without the ladies he doesn't win. And they accomplish what they do on their own merits, not by tearing T'Challa down. Not by following him around asking 'what's my place in all this?'

 Vulcan wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Look, not everyone who hates tlj and fa are mysogynists. But you cannot claim that a bunch of them were not out there making derogatory comments and bashing on rey for having tits.

You are not a woman hater for disliking the movies. But criticising the people who hate the movies because they ARE woman haters is fair. If its not you who is woman hating then they are not talking about you when they are laying into them.

I guess that explains why Wonder Woman tanked as well... oh, wait, it DIDN'T. That pretty well puts a stake in the heart of your argument.

And don't go claiming people hated TLJ it heavily featured a black character either, because Black Panther has done quite well and disproves THAT argument as well.

What?

I actually have no idea what you are trying to say here? WW and Blackpanther did good because they are good movies. Just like TLJ did good because it's a good movie. There are people who hated on all 3 of those films because they are bigots, but that doesn't matter. There are also people who didn't like those movies because they just didn't like them. And that parts fine. You don't have to like everything... or anything!

But calling out the bigots for being bigots isn't wrong. Again, if you didn't like the movies for non-bigot reasons then good on you. Have your opinion. If you DID hate on those movies for bigot reasons, then feth you. I am glad the movies made millions of dollars and I hope they make more over and over again just to spite you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vulcan wrote:

Now Leia in the first trilogy, THERE was a strong female character.

WHAT!?

Carrie Fischer herself has always been upset about how little of a character Leia even was. She barely existed as a person in all 3 movies besides to get captured twice and be put in a metal bikini.

She wasn't a strong ANYTHING.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:


How did they feel about Leia slapping Poe for doing exactly what she rewarded Luke for several decades earlier?

I know it's seemingly hard to believe, but everyone was just fine with the whole movie. Fine to really happy. As said before, SW has always been dumb. It's always had dumb jokes. It's always had weird crap that doesn't make sense. It's always been fantasy. It's always been made "for all ages" (despite having a lot of dismemberment in it).

Big fans of starwars had this story in their head of what more starwars could be. They have been reading books, playing games, and everything else for years. Nothing they released would ever match up to what everyone thought it could be. On top of that the kids who enjoyed all the dumb stuff before have grown up. Despite how dumb the ewoks are, or Leia's barely a character in 3 movies, or luke's miraculous mastery of skills as he needs them, all of that is given a pass under nostalgia.

I mean you COULD just reasonably say that Leia has GROWN UP in 30 years and learned some lessons and is now trying to stop these hot shot lil gaks from firing off half cocked instead of listening to the older "wiser" generation. You COULD also just say these characters are people and people make mistakes. But no. When it comes to the people who dislike these movies it's always why arn't these people perfectly acting exactly the same as they did 30 years ago or exactly the way YOU think they should based on your own head cannon and/or 30 years of expanded material.

You don't have to like it. And thats fine. If the new starwars movies are not to your liking then they are apparently not for you and you should stop going to see them and giving them your money. The DC comic movies are not for me. I like Batman, but I am tired of watching Batman use guns and kill people. I move along. You should too. But enough people really liked it that it made a metric gak ton of money and the director was given a whole trilogy. You are just going to have to find something else to watch.

It made $200 million LESS than they projected it to. And you note it's already out of theaters, after the shortest theatrical run of any SW movie to date.

What could Leia have learned over 30 years, that makes SAVING THE FLEET FROM IMMEDIATE DESTRUCTION worthy of a slap in the face? They said flat-out in the movie that the Dreadnaught was a fleet-killer. Had it gotten in range, the fleet DIES. Poe stopped it. Granted, at terrible cost. We don't know how many escort fighters were lost, but the losses among the bombers were total. But then, out of the twenty-odd fighters that launched to fight at Yavin, THREE come back.

If Poe was wrong, then so was Luke. They shouldn't have launched at Yavin, for fear of suffering terrible losses while fighting to save the Rebellion.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Misandry is not the solution to misogyny.

This isn't a question of misandry to misogyny.

Once again, characters have flaws, make mistakes, learn, and grow. Poe WAS a hot shot idiot who fethed up all the plans the higher ups were making. He also got a lot of their very limited resources in pilots, ships and armaments destroyed to take out a single enemy ship (granted a big one. But a big one they can build again while reaquiring what Poe sacrificed is much harder).

This bit has actually apparently been explained in the books a bit. Mon Mothma demilitarized the whole new republic so they didn't end up being just like the Empire and it bit them in the ass when the first order showed up. The reason the resistance is so strapped is because there was literally nothing around for them to use.

What Poe did that was very different from what Luke did was sacrifice a far larger % of their available resources for show boating.


BTW, Luke spent 2 movies following around people like a puppy dog. First it was Ben, then it was Yoda, Then it was Leia.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Look, not everyone who hates tlj and fa are mysogynists. But you cannot claim that a bunch of them were not out there making derogatory comments and bashing on rey for having tits.

You are not a woman hater for disliking the movies. But criticising the people who hate the movies because they ARE woman haters is fair. If its not you who is woman hating then they are not talking about you when they are laying into them.

I guess that explains why Wonder Woman tanked as well... oh, wait, it DIDN'T. That pretty well puts a stake in the heart of your argument.

And don't go claiming people hated TLJ it heavily featured a black character either, because Black Panther has done quite well and disproves THAT argument as well.

What?

I actually have no idea what you are trying to say here? WW and Blackpanther did good because they are good movies. Just like TLJ did good because it's a good movie. There are people who hated on all 3 of those films because they are bigots, but that doesn't matter. There are also people who didn't like those movies because they just didn't like them. And that parts fine. You don't have to like everything... or anything!

But calling out the bigots for being bigots isn't wrong. Again, if you didn't like the movies for non-bigot reasons then good on you. Have your opinion. If you DID hate on those movies for bigot reasons, then feth you. I am glad the movies made millions of dollars and I hope they make more over and over again just to spite you.

The problem is, the same people who tend to watch Star Wars ALSO tend to watch superhero movies. And yet, SOMEHOW, the same racist sexist bigots who hacked Rotten Tomatoes and trashed the rating for TLJ... left both Wonder Woman and Black Panther alone?

How gullible do you think I am?

Yes, we need to call out bigotry whenever we find it. That includes misandry, and I'm calling it out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vulcan wrote:

Now Leia in the first trilogy, THERE was a strong female character.

WHAT!?

Carrie Fischer herself has always been upset about how little of a character Leia even was. She barely existed as a person in all 3 movies besides to get captured twice and be put in a metal bikini.

She wasn't a strong ANYTHING.

Because Poe didn't just save the fleet - he immediately put it back into the danger he saved it from. They make a point about the fleet being ready to jump into Hyperspace after Poe being more than a bit of a distraction with he speech and theatrics.

Now of course, in hindsight we know they were going to be tracked through hyperspace so they would have had to destroy the Dreadnought eventually, but everyone in the Resistance (and us, the audience) didn't know that beforehand, so forcing the fleet to stay within range of the Dreadnought to allow the fighters and bombers to try and destroy it (a mission they almost failed and that very nearly did get the fleet kablamo'd) is a pretty massive error of judgement.

So Luke is a weak male character then?

Luke needed Han, Ben, Yoda, and Leia to tell him HIS place.

Luke had a story ark over 3 movies in which he grew and came into his own. Rey has had a story ark over 2 movies, and you can see how much she has grown already. Luke never had the balls to tell Ben or yoda off. Rey did though with Luke.

A strong character, female or male, is one that, like an onion, has layers. They have fears, motivations, goals, and exist within the story for more than being a goal for another character. Leia existed only to be the piece of ass Luke/Solo was after for 3 movies. She didn't have a human reaction to her planet getting blown up. She existed solely to further the plots of the other characters that had actual story arks and grew over the course of 3 movies. Leia on the other hand never once seemed to grow or change as a person. Because her character didn't have the depth to have any growth.

 Lance845 wrote:
This isn't a question of misandry to misogyny.

Once again, characters have flaws, make mistakes, learn, and grow. Poe WAS a hot shot idiot who fethed up all the plans the higher ups were making. He also got a lot of their very limited resources in pilots, ships and armaments destroyed to take out a single enemy ship (granted a big one. But a big one they can build again while reaquiring what Poe sacrificed is much harder).

This bit has actually apparently been explained in the books a bit. Mon Mothma demilitarized the whole new republic so they didn't end up being just like the Empire and it bit them in the ass when the first order showed up. The reason the resistance is so strapped is because there was literally nothing around for them to use.

What Poe did that was very different from what Luke did was sacrifice a far larger % of their available resources for show boating.


BTW, Luke spent 2 movies following around people like a puppy dog. First it was Ben, then it was Yoda, Then it was Leia.

If you need books to explain what happened in a movie, you did a bad job with the movie.

How did Poe screw up? He SAVED THE FLEET FROM IMMEDIATE DESTRUCTION. That bears repeating. HE SAVED THE FLEET FROM IMMEDIATE DESTRUCTION. Had the Dreadnaught been able to close without interference the Resistance doesn't make it out of orbit. Period.

How is SAVING THE FLEET FROM IMMEDIATE DESTRUCTION screwing up? Especially since Holdo's later plan is 'sacrifice the even HARDER to replace Resistance Fleet to evacuate the personnel on unarmed transports'...

Ah, I see the problem. There's a wee bit of difference between showboating, and SAVING THE FLEET FROM IMMEDIATE DESTRUCTION. Showboating would have been destroying one of the many Resurgent class Star Destroyers, leaving the rest intact, just because they could. Killing the Dreadnaught - which is designed to be a FLEET KILLLER - is a completely different issue.

Vulcan wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
This isn't a question of misandry to misogyny.

Once again, characters have flaws, make mistakes, learn, and grow. Poe WAS a hot shot idiot who fethed up all the plans the higher ups were making. He also got a lot of their very limited resources in pilots, ships and armaments destroyed to take out a single enemy ship (granted a big one. But a big one they can build again while reaquiring what Poe sacrificed is much harder).

This bit has actually apparently been explained in the books a bit. Mon Mothma demilitarized the whole new republic so they didn't end up being just like the Empire and it bit them in the ass when the first order showed up. The reason the resistance is so strapped is because there was literally nothing around for them to use.

What Poe did that was very different from what Luke did was sacrifice a far larger % of their available resources for show boating.


BTW, Luke spent 2 movies following around people like a puppy dog. First it was Ben, then it was Yoda, Then it was Leia.

If you need books to explain what happened in a movie, you did a bad job with the movie.

How did Poe screw up? He SAVED THE FLEET FROM IMMEDIATE DESTRUCTION. That bears repeating. HE SAVED THE FLEET FROM IMMEDIATE DESTRUCTION. Had the Dreadnaught been able to close without interference the Resistance doesn't make it out of orbit. Period.

How is SAVING THE FLEET FROM IMMEDIATE DESTRUCTION screwing up? Especially since Holdo's later plan is 'sacrifice the even HARDER to replace Resistance Fleet to evacuate the personnel on unarmed transports'...

Ah, I see the problem. There's a wee bit of difference between showboating, and SAVING THE FLEET FROM IMMEDIATE DESTRUCTION. Showboating would have been destroying one of the many Resurgent class Star Destroyers, leaving the rest intact, just because they could. Killing the Dreadnaught - which is designed to be a FLEET KILLLER - is a completely different issue.

This bit you seem to have ignored.

Matt.Kingsley wrote:Because Poe didn't just save the fleet - he immediately put it back into the danger he saved it from. They make a point about the fleet being ready to jump into Hyperspace after Poe being more than a bit of a distraction with he speech and theatrics.

Now of course, in hindsight we know they were going to be tracked through hyperspace so they would have had to destroy the Dreadnought eventually, but everyone in the Resistance (and us, the audience) didn't know that beforehand, so forcing the fleet to stay within range of the Dreadnought to allow the fighters and bombers to try and destroy it (a mission they almost failed and that very nearly did get the fleet kablamo'd) is a pretty massive error of judgement.

And I don't need to know WHY the resistance is in a bad way when TLJ started. I can see it. They showed it well. Every person in that movie in the resistance talked about how badly they were doing and how little they had and made a big deal out of how much Poe got destroyed just to kill 1 ship.

The book expanded on it and explained WHY the resistance is so under funded and maned. But it's not needed to understand the movie.

 Lance845 wrote:
So Luke is a weak male character then?

In TLJ? Absolutely

Luke needed Han, Ben, Yoda, and Leia to tell him HIS place.

Tell me where he asked anyone, much less multiple different characters, to tell him his place. Movie name and timestamp will do.

A strong character, female or male, is one that, like an onion, has layers. They have fears, motivations, goals, and exist within the story for more than being a goal for another character. Leia existed only to be the piece of ass Luke/Solo was after for 3 movies. She didn't have a human reaction to her planet getting blown up. She existed solely to further the plots of the other characters that had actual story arks and grew over the course of 3 movies. Leia on the other hand never once seemed to grow or change as a person. Because her character didn't have the depth to have any growth.

Tell me what growth Rey has experienced. Tell me what struggles she has overcome. There aren't any. At any challenge she 'downloads' a new Force capability and is 'great'. No explanation at all. And even at the end of TLJ, she STILL doesn't seem to have any idea what's going on. One can argue HER whole role for two movies has been as the love interest for Finn and Poe to chase after. She certainly hasn't grown or changed a bit.

I'll grant you Leia could have been handled better. But it was 1977-1983. Not 2015-2018. Two whole generations of difference there. For her time, Leia is a BREATHTAKINGLY strong female character. And for 2018 Rey is a breathtakingly WEAK female character.

Not as bad as Holdo or Rose Tico, though. They both plumb the depths of weak female characters I haven't seen in a major release for two decades now. Even slasher flicks don't write female character that weak anymore.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
So Luke is a weak male character then?

In TLJ? Absolutely

Luke needed Han, Ben, Yoda, and Leia to tell him HIS place.

Tell me where he asked anyone, much less multiple different characters, to tell him his place. Movie name and timestamp will do.

Luke didn't even have the where-with-all to ask. Luke got TOLD where to go and what to do. You can't go to Tashi Station. You can check on Ol Ben. You Need to come with me to Mos Isly. You need to join the rebles. Don't use the targetting computer. Go to Endor.

A strong character, female or male, is one that, like an onion, has layers. They have fears, motivations, goals, and exist within the story for more than being a goal for another character. Leia existed only to be the piece of ass Luke/Solo was after for 3 movies. She didn't have a human reaction to her planet getting blown up. She existed solely to further the plots of the other characters that had actual story arks and grew over the course of 3 movies. Leia on the other hand never once seemed to grow or change as a person. Because her character didn't have the depth to have any growth.

Tell me what growth Rey has experienced. Tell me what struggles she has overcome. There aren't any. At any challenge she 'downloads' a new Force capability and is 'great'. No explanation at all. And even at the end of TLJ, she STILL doesn't seem to have any idea what's going on. One can argue HER whole role for two movies has been as the love interest for Finn and Poe to chase after. She certainly hasn't grown or changed a bit.

I'll grant you Leia could have been handled better. But it was 1977-1983. Not 2015-2018. Two whole generations of difference there. For her time, Leia is a BREATHTAKINGLY strong female character. And for 2018 Rey is a breathtakingly WEAK female character.

Not as bad as Holdo or Rose Tico, though. They both plumb the depths of weak female characters I haven't seen in a major release for two decades now. Even slasher flicks don't write female character that weak anymore.

Ry sought answers about her parents. Rey decided to defy luke and stand up for what her interpretation of her visions meant. Rey tried to Save Kylo despite Lukes warnings. Rey went to find Luke because she wanted to not because anyone asked her to. Rey more or less forced luke to start training her because she wanted training. Rey came back and saved what little resistance was left on her own accord. Rey started off living on her own and making her own living instead of being a little gak on his uncles farm.

Considering that Rey has had no romantic relationship with Poe OR Finn you would be hard pressed to make that argument. Especially since Leias character kissed Luke and Han at least once in all 3 movies and Rey has kissed exactly nobody.


Yeah, Rose is weak. Having a backstory explaining how her and her sister come from a place that Finn has never seen in his life about how the fancy and well to do crush the down trodden and make slaves of people. Having her sister die. Having her stop attempted people fleeing the resistance because she won't let them run when her sister didn't, having her have skills as a mechanic and stepping up to be a pilot because Poe made sure they were running out of those. All those layers that make her an actual person is the very definition of a weak character.

 Lance845 wrote:

Vulcan wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
This isn't a question of misandry to misogyny.

Once again, characters have flaws, make mistakes, learn, and grow. Poe WAS a hot shot idiot who fethed up all the plans the higher ups were making. He also got a lot of their very limited resources in pilots, ships and armaments destroyed to take out a single enemy ship (granted a big one. But a big one they can build again while reaquiring what Poe sacrificed is much harder).

This bit has actually apparently been explained in the books a bit. Mon Mothma demilitarized the whole new republic so they didn't end up being just like the Empire and it bit them in the ass when the first order showed up. The reason the resistance is so strapped is because there was literally nothing around for them to use.

What Poe did that was very different from what Luke did was sacrifice a far larger % of their available resources for show boating.


BTW, Luke spent 2 movies following around people like a puppy dog. First it was Ben, then it was Yoda, Then it was Leia.

If you need books to explain what happened in a movie, you did a bad job with the movie.

How did Poe screw up? He SAVED THE FLEET FROM IMMEDIATE DESTRUCTION. That bears repeating. HE SAVED THE FLEET FROM IMMEDIATE DESTRUCTION. Had the Dreadnaught been able to close without interference the Resistance doesn't make it out of orbit. Period.

How is SAVING THE FLEET FROM IMMEDIATE DESTRUCTION screwing up? Especially since Holdo's later plan is 'sacrifice the even HARDER to replace Resistance Fleet to evacuate the personnel on unarmed transports'...

Ah, I see the problem. There's a wee bit of difference between showboating, and SAVING THE FLEET FROM IMMEDIATE DESTRUCTION. Showboating would have been destroying one of the many Resurgent class Star Destroyers, leaving the rest intact, just because they could. Killing the Dreadnaught - which is designed to be a FLEET KILLLER - is a completely different issue.

This bit you seem to have ignored.

Matt.Kingsley wrote:Because Poe didn't just save the fleet - he immediately put it back into the danger he saved it from. They make a point about the fleet being ready to jump into Hyperspace after Poe being more than a bit of a distraction with he speech and theatrics.

Now of course, in hindsight we know they were going to be tracked through hyperspace so they would have had to destroy the Dreadnought eventually, but everyone in the Resistance (and us, the audience) didn't know that beforehand, so forcing the fleet to stay within range of the Dreadnought to allow the fighters and bombers to try and destroy it (a mission they almost failed and that very nearly did get the fleet kablamo'd) is a pretty massive error of judgement.

And I don't need to know WHY the resistance is in a bad way when TLJ started. I can see it. They showed it well. Every person in that movie in the resistance talked about how badly they were doing and how little they had and made a big deal out of how much Poe got destroyed just to kill 1 ship.

The book expanded on it and explained WHY the resistance is so under funded and maned. But it's not needed to understand the movie.

Actually, I think it is, because:

a) Why use such STUPIDLY slow and vulnerable bombers, when 30-year-old B-Wings would have been faster, more maneuverable, and more durable? Or use even older Y-Wings, six of which took down an ISD in Rogue One.

b) Why ships that can hyperspace clear out of the galaxy's gravity well (see the end of ESB) are so short on fuel they can't make more than two short jumps?

Really, the only answer to b) that makes sense is that there's a saboteur in the fleet, and her name is Holdo. Which would also explain her plan to destroy the Resistance fleet and leave the Resistance personnel on unarmed transports easily captured. It would also explain her not sharing said plan with anyone. And lastly, would have given her one heck of a redemption story arc when the New Order betrayed her and started shooting the transports instead of capturing them, leading to her one moment of Awesome she did absolutely nothing to earn in the movie we actually saw.

The fact that their COULD have been a sabatuer in the fleet is exactly why they didn't tell Poe gak. In responce Poe put them all in even more danger. POE was the idiot making mistakes. Holdo was doing her damn job with idiots making a bigger mess around her.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
So Luke is a weak male character then?

In TLJ? Absolutely

Luke needed Han, Ben, Yoda, and Leia to tell him HIS place.

Tell me where he asked anyone, much less multiple different characters, to tell him his place. Movie name and timestamp will do.

Luke didn't even have the where-with-all to ask. Luke got TOLD where to go and what to do. You can't go to Tashi Station. You can check on Ol Ben. You Need to come with me to Mos Isly. You need to join the rebles. Don't use the targetting computer. Go to Endor.

A strong character, female or male, is one that, like an onion, has layers. They have fears, motivations, goals, and exist within the story for more than being a goal for another character. Leia existed only to be the piece of ass Luke/Solo was after for 3 movies. She didn't have a human reaction to her planet getting blown up. She existed solely to further the plots of the other characters that had actual story arks and grew over the course of 3 movies. Leia on the other hand never once seemed to grow or change as a person. Because her character didn't have the depth to have any growth.

Tell me what growth Rey has experienced. Tell me what struggles she has overcome. There aren't any. At any challenge she 'downloads' a new Force capability and is 'great'. No explanation at all. And even at the end of TLJ, she STILL doesn't seem to have any idea what's going on. One can argue HER whole role for two movies has been as the love interest for Finn and Poe to chase after. She certainly hasn't grown or changed a bit.

I'll grant you Leia could have been handled better. But it was 1977-1983. Not 2015-2018. Two whole generations of difference there. For her time, Leia is a BREATHTAKINGLY strong female character. And for 2018 Rey is a breathtakingly WEAK female character.

Not as bad as Holdo or Rose Tico, though. They both plumb the depths of weak female characters I haven't seen in a major release for two decades now. Even slasher flicks don't write female character that weak anymore.

Ry sought answers about her parents. Rey decided to defy luke and stand up for what her interpretation of her visions meant. Rey tried to Save Kylo despite Lukes warnings. Rey went to find Luke because she wanted to not because anyone asked her to. Rey more or less forced luke to start training her because she wanted training. Rey came back and saved what little resistance was left on her own accord. Rey started off living on her own and making her own living instead of being a little gak on his uncles farm.

Considering that Rey has had no romantic relationship with Poe OR Finn you would be hard pressed to make that argument. Especially since Leias character kissed Luke and Han at least once in all 3 movies and Rey has kissed exactly nobody.


Yeah, Rose is weak. Having a backstory explaining how her and her sister come from a place that Finn has never seen in his life about how the fancy and well to do crush the down trodden and make slaves of people. Having her sister die. Having her stop attempted people fleeing the resistance because she won't let them run when her sister didn't, having her have skills as a mechanic and stepping up to be a pilot because Poe made sure they were running out of those. All those layers that make her an actual person is the very definition of a weak character.

I don't remember Luke ASKING for permission to chase after R2.

I DO remember Luke trying his darndest to get off of Tatooine, and being held back by his well-intentioned uncle. He's SUPPOSED to be a good, generally obedient kid that the audience sympathizes with.

Rey? Rey is an abandoned orphan who spends the first movie either waiting for her parents to return for her, or trying to get BACK to Jakku to wait for her parents to return for her.

Luke gets real training. Rey starts doing this and is just AWESUMH! at it because story requires it. She hops in the Millenium Falcon for the first time and flies it as well as either Han or Lando ever did. Without being trained in piloting a starship, I might add.

I can just barely accept her beating Kylo Ren at the end of TFA, as it's established she can fight in melee; Kylo Ren had been shot by Chewbacca with a BOWCASTER; and Finn (also established with some melee training) had worn Ren down first. Her beating Snoke's guard? Nope. Lifting dozens of boulders? Luke struggled to lift large rocks after days of INTENSE training, Rey had, at most, HOURS of half-assed training.

I remember Obi-Wan telling Luke that he needed to go rescue Leia, and Luke turning him down, until he saw the brutality of the Empire with his own eyes.

And I remember Luke confronting his father not to kill him, as Obi-Wan told him to, but to REDEEM him.

Sure, Rey hasn't kissed anyone. But don't tell me Poe and (especially) Finn aren't interested.

a) The real reason is merchandising, but in-universe you could say that the reason is because the SF-17s munition capacity far exceeds that of the B and Y wings.

b) The film sort of mentions emergency refueling as that reason. It doesn't explain it very well, but it does give that as the reason.

What real training does luke get? He spends MAYBE a week with ben getting shot by a ball before he uses the force to blow up the death star.

Go on. Give me a time stamp for a new hope for when luke gets ANY real training.

He also didnt turn down ben because HE wanted to turn ben down. He said i cant... My uncle will be mad. Im 20 and do what im told.

Obi wan didnt tell luke to kill vader.

Thats your projection of finn and poe onto rey. Its very possible for people to be friends and happy to see each other without doing the pants dance. We have ZERO evidence those characters are interested in her sexually. Thats all you.

 Lance845 wrote:
The fact that their COULD have been a sabatuer in the fleet is exactly why they didn't tell Poe gak. In responce Poe put them all in even more danger. POE was the idiot making mistakes. Holdo was doing her damn job with idiots making a bigger mess around her.

Poe tries to save the Resistance in the face of apparent indifference from his commander.

In a real-world situation like this, and in the absence of evidence of a saboteur - and let's be honest, there is NO mention of even the slightest suspicion of a saboteur in the movie - it is VITAL for a commander to keep morale up. Appearing to have no plan to save everyone's life is really bad for morale, and leads to people taking action to save their OWN lives. Which is exactly what happens here. Not a reckless hotshot trying to grandstand (not then, anyway). A soldier trying to save the lives of his fellow soldiers when his commander has failed to take action to do so. That's called INITIATIVE, and is highly prized in the military.

Now I'll grant you, later on he does grandstand leading infantry out to those trenches. THAT was a complete waste of lives.

Now let's talk about Rose for a moment, shall we? Finn's all lined up to follow Holdo's lead and sacrifice himself to save the Resistance.... and Rose STOPS HIM. As a result, if Luke hadn't delayed the New Order, the Resistance DIES THEN AND THERE.

But somehow it's okay for Holdo to sacrifice her life, but not okay for Finn to sacrifice his because Rose (despite all evidence to the contrary earlier in the film) loves him? Where the heck did THAT come from?

Rose, again, is a person with emotions who does things because of those meotions. Her actions dont have to be perfect. And btw, finn wasnt going to make it. We all saw it. He would have died to no effect.

 Lance845 wrote:
What real training does luke get? He spends MAYBE a week with ben getting shot by a ball before he uses the force to blow up the death star.

Go on. Give me a time stamp for a new hope for when luke gets ANY real training.

While we're at it, show me where Rey learned to fly a heavily modified light freighter well enough to outmaneuver one of the most nimble fighters the galaxy has ever seen.

He also didnt turn down ben because HE wanted to turn ben down. He said i cant... My uncle will be mad. Im 20 and do what im told.

Obi wan didnt tell luke to kill vader.

Luke: "I can't kill my father."

Obi-Wan: (sadly) "Then the Emperor has already won."

Thats your projection of finn and poe onto rey. Its very possible for people to be friends and happy to see each other without doing the pants dance. We have ZERO evidence those characters are interested in her sexually. Thats all you.

Finn barely knows Rey, but seems AWFULLY intent on finding her at the beginning of TLJ. There hasn't been TIME for them to become that close as friends. Lust, on the other hand...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
Rose, again, is a person with emotions who does things because of those meotions. Her actions dont have to be perfect. And btw, finn wasnt going to make it. We all saw it. He would have died to no effect.

I still want to know how Rose goes from loathing Finn as an attempted defector to loving him enough to sacrifice her life for him in less than 18 hours.

Finn escaped the brain washing first order. He makes 2 friends poe and rey. He doesnt want to fight. He wants to run. Before he goes down the only 1 of his 2 friends is there and in danger. When he wakes up he wants to know what happened to the one person he was with that he gives any gak about.

Then, because of the rose plot, finn learns why its important to fight instead of run. And he takes that to a suicidal extreme, which he is saved from.

Its his character ark. Finding real relationships and ideals and learning whats worth fighting for and that throwing your life away wont help.

I think you mean 'arc', not 'ark'.

The points remain... how is it fine for Rose's sister and Holdo to sacrifice themselves, and not Finn? How does Rose come to love someone who, less than 18 hours earlier, she herself stuns as he tries to abandon her and the Resistance she's sacrificed a sister to?

Nope. Just doesn't make sense.

Roses sister only HAD to die because Poe was a feth up. Holdo because sw tech, for all its advancment, is analog and no auto pilot exists. She actually was providing cover for everyone else to escape. It only failed because poe fethed up again with finn and rose and let the enemy know what was up.

Finn, again, wasnt saving anyone. If this movie had a general theme about sacrifice in it, its that you shouldnt. Because other people are gunna pay for your (poes) idiocy. Twice other people paid for poes dumb ass decisions.

If there is a problem with this movie its that they didnt string up poe and execute him as a hazard to everyone elses life.

 Manchu wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Seems to be getting decent early comments.

TLJ came into theaters with around 97% fresh rating. I have no doubt Disney will ensure similar results here.

And TLJ was awesome, so if this turns out to be as good, I'll be happy.


I think I've finally got my head around accepting this as a stand-alone movie, so it doesn't matter as much that Han and Lando are completely different guys, and the rest of it from the trailers looks cool, so if reviews are also good that leaves me far more hopeful than I started out.

 Lance845 wrote:
Roses sister only HAD to die because Poe was a feth up. Holdo because sw tech, for all its advancment, is analog and no auto pilot exists. She actually was providing cover for everyone else to escape. It only failed because poe fethed up again with finn and rose and let the enemy know what was up.

There is auto-pilot in the star wars universe.. It's kind of what astromech droids like R2 do. Not counting the EU stuff like droid brains just attached to ships.

Also Roses sister had to die because something had to motivate Rose. She essentially got fridged in order to make Rose.. who is paralyzing people and tossing them in the brig as a result (Did anyone ask her to do this? Is she the Resistance equivalent of a commissar to keep people from deserting?) some sort of motivation, which overall got somewhat glossed over due to the Canto Blight stuff.

If the astromech is doing it then its not auto pilot since its essentially a sentient ai driving.

By auto pilot i mean what amounts to cruise control in your car. Aparently in sw you cant put a brick on the pedal and walk away.

 Lance845 wrote:
Finn escaped the brain washing first order. He makes 2 friends poe and rey. He doesnt want to fight. He wants to run. Before he goes down the only 1 of his 2 friends is there and in danger. When he wakes up he wants to know what happened to the one person he was with that he gives any gak about.

Then, because of the rose plot, finn learns why its important to fight instead of run. And he takes that to a suicidal extreme, which he is saved from.

Its his character ark. Finding real relationships and ideals and learning whats worth fighting for and that throwing your life away wont help.

See, that is how I envisioned Finn's story arc being pitched, but the execution was awful. It just makes him appear nonsensical. He's either a sniveling coward or a stoic self-sacrificing hero. But because those are incompatible character traits it is just so jarring.

Really that I think is the biggest failing of these two movies. They totally failed to make Finn a usable character. Somehow he is a font of knowledge about the intimate technical details of First Order protocols, yet at the same time he's a flunky stormtrooper who's resume is limited to janitorial duties.

To make Finn a believable source of inside information he needed to be a hard bitten Stormtrooper veteran who has a change of heart when asked to slaughter defenseless civilians. That would explain how he had so much knowledge that would realistically be restricted information, and explain his bravery. Leave the cowering, whining, and whimpering to C-3P0. You could even justify him trying to escape with this new version. He simply doesn't really buy into the Resistance ideology. He doesn't really give a frak about anybody except Rey and Poe, so when he thinks the situation is hopeless he's willing to run off, but not because he's a spineless coward, because he just doesn't really care that much and doesn't fancy dying for no purpose.

Don't want to interrupt and try and post about the new film (you know the actual topic), but has it been mentioned at all that the first reviews have been given and it is widely positive?

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/han-solo-a-star-wars-story-movie-reviews-read-crit/1100-6458881/

I am not a movie buff so don't know who any of those people are or if their views are to be respected.