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Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





CO

Yeah Commissars would probably require a different way to interact with conscripts vs guardsmen if they were to rework Commissars.

5k Imperial Guard
2k Ad Mech 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Yeah Commissars would probably require a different way to interact with conscripts vs guardsmen if they were to rework Commissars.

Perhaps (potentially) killing more Conscripts (say D3) vs regular Guard (1)?
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Or not working on conscripts because morale is the intended method of killing large hordes?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/09 20:51:12


 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





CO

That's what I thought GW would do from the start. Or maybe D3 for every 10 conscripts killed. Idk. I don't care to put more thought into speculation and wishful thinking haha.

5k Imperial Guard
2k Ad Mech 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Or not working on conscripts because morale is the intended method of killing large hordes?

Perhaps, but since not having a morale balancing option like some other hordes Conscripts are currently being left on the shelf, so -something- needs to be done to balance that.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Or not working on conscripts because morale is the intended method of killing large hordes?

Cool, so are other hordes going to need a 4+ to receive their army's signature special rule?
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





CO

This thread has really run amok. Lol.

Basilisks, Manticores, Leman Russes, Infantry Squads, mortars, company commanders, now back to Commissars and conscripts. I half expect someone to propose simply removing the army from the game by page 30.

5k Imperial Guard
2k Ad Mech 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Or not working on conscripts because morale is the intended method of killing large hordes?

Perhaps, but since not having a morale balancing option like some other hordes Conscripts are currently being left on the shelf, so -something- needs to be done to balance that.


IG aren't a horde. The fact that they could be an effective horde, while ALSO being the best gunline, was broken.

There should be no morale immunity for conscripts, nor guardsmen. The Commissar shooting someone for an optional reroll is the best method in my opinion. From a lore standpoint, their ability cannot be better than "AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR," this morale ability should be the baseline by which humans take morale checks.

Pre-nerf, Guard were a better horde army that Orks, and Tyranids. That right there should tell you something his HORRIBLY wrong.

You guys are absolutely understating how broken things were prior to this nerf.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/09 21:06:24


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 Kanluwen wrote:
 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Or not working on conscripts because morale is the intended method of killing large hordes?

Cool, so are other hordes going to need a 4+ to receive their army's signature special rule?


Nope - this has nothing to do with orders. Has to do strictly with morale. I don't believe conscripts should be affected by commissars at all, be fine with commissars reverting to their pre-nerf rules but without affecting conscripts.
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 Colonel Cross wrote:
This thread has really run amok. Lol.

Basilisks, Manticores, Leman Russes, Infantry Squads, mortars, company commanders, now back to Commissars and conscripts. I half expect someone to propose simply removing the army from the game by page 30.

"REMOVE IG! REGULAR HUMANS HAVE NO PLACE IN AGE OF SIGMAR 40K!"

There, that's out of the way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Marmatag wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Or not working on conscripts because morale is the intended method of killing large hordes?

Perhaps, but since not having a morale balancing option like some other hordes Conscripts are currently being left on the shelf, so -something- needs to be done to balance that.


IG aren't a horde. The fact that they could be an effective horde, while ALSO being the best gunline, was broken.

There should be no morale immunity for conscripts, nor guardsmen. The Commissar shooting someone for an optional reroll is the best method in my opinion. From a lore standpoint, their ability cannot be better than "AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR," this morale ability should be the baseline by which humans take morale checks.

Pre-nerf, Guard were a better horde army that Orks, and Tyranids. That right there should tell you something his HORRIBLY wrong.

You guys are absolutely understating how broken things were prior to this nerf.

Guard bring horde numbers, but only have one horde unit: Conscripts. A horde unit that no one uses because it lacks a balance mechanic to make it possible to make it a little more durable for a price. Horde armies have a balance mechanic that keeps horde units from being completely worthless by paying for something to balance out the morale (synapse, mob rule). I'm not saying we need to go back to where we were, but Conscripts definitely need something. And no, no one is going to run them in large hordes just because they're cheap if they can't mitigate their ld problems on some level.

I'm not underestimating how broken things were, just stating that there is a problem with the army that comes from it being a horde army that pretends it isn't a horde while the one true horde unit in it can't even act like a proper horde because it can't mitigate it's losses.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/09 21:25:04


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Commisars kill 1 dude, reduce morale loses by D6. Lord Commisars D6+3. Yarrick 3D6.
One commisar can BLAM! more than one unit a turn. 3" range.

I think thats the best compromise. (I can't give a point cost to commisars with that rule before playtesting it). With that and Infantry Squads being 5ppm I think Conscripts at 4ppm will have again a place as what they are supposed to be, meathshields.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/09 21:27:34


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

That's a strawman. IG has been stomping everyone except post-codex Eldar since the jump of 8th edition.


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot





Michigan

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse over here but I really like soup armies.This is the perfect edition to build a really fluffy inquisitor army and I'm taking full advantage of it. If GW stopped soup it would pretty much kill the fluffy play style I use.

Necrons - 6000+
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Genestealer Cult - 2000
Currently enthralled by Blanchitsu and INQ28. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Colonel Cross wrote:
You folks do realize that the Commissar without upgraded weapons was 3/4 the cost of an infantry squad?


Well now they'll be a smaller percentage.
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 supreme overlord wrote:
I feel like I'm beating a dead horse over here but I really like soup armies.This is the perfect edition to build a really fluffy inquisitor army and I'm taking full advantage of it. If GW stopped soup it would pretty much kill the fluffy play style I use.

Agreed. I don't see the soups going away honestly, outside of perhaps being banned in tournament armies, but I could see restrictions cropping up for matched play.
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

 Marmatag wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Or not working on conscripts because morale is the intended method of killing large hordes?

Perhaps, but since not having a morale balancing option like some other hordes Conscripts are currently being left on the shelf, so -something- needs to be done to balance that.


IG aren't a horde. The fact that they could be an effective horde, while ALSO being the best gunline, was broken.
Um...the faction who's self described greatest asset is inexhaustible human lives isnt a horde faction?

I guess I would have to ask what your definition of "horde" is? The IG has always been a faction where massive numbers have always been a feature, where its background is built up around the fact that human life is cheap and infinite, and that has always been able to comfortably pack in triple digits worth of models if it so chooses, and, in several editions, having great hordes of infantry has been the preeminent play build.

Have we forgotten blob platoons through 3 editions so quickly? What about 50man conscript squads being available back as far as 3E?


There should be no morale immunity for conscripts, nor guardsmen. The Commissar shooting someone for an optional reroll is the best method in my opinion.
If the Commissar blamming a dude doesnt count towards the test, Maybe? As is however, the Commissar change effectively broke the functionality of the unit. Commissars certainly weren't the value on Infantry Squads they were on full sized Conscript units.

Browsing the first several pages of the army list subforum, looking at IG and Soup lists, Commissars are nonexistent. There is a reason for that. They simply dont bring anything of value to the table in their current form.

From a lore standpoint, their ability cannot be better than "AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR," this morale ability should be the baseline by which humans take morale checks.
This is rather subjective, and lets not forget that ATSKNF is an inherent, always on ability, not something that has to be bought separately at a significant chunk of the cost of the units it is supporting, and then appropriately positioned and managed.

Big difference there.


Pre-nerf, Guard were a better horde army that Orks, and Tyranids. That right there should tell you something his HORRIBLY wrong.
Horde guard armies have been possible and competitive (or at least as competitive as was possible for IG) in many editions...they just typically were shooting oriented more than CC.

That said, Orks need a lot of help and nobody is going to begrudge them that, and Tyranids have better Morale immunity than the most abusive of Conscript/Commossar lists ever did, their Synapse auras are larger and more widely available and they simply autopass (no rerolls or blamming) morale tests, and that seems to bother nobody (including me).


You guys are absolutely understating how broken things were prior to this nerf.
Even if we simply accept that as true without argument, there have been further changes made both to the greater metagame and to the IG army itself since then.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/09 22:07:21


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 supreme overlord wrote:
I feel like I'm beating a dead horse over here but I really like soup armies.This is the perfect edition to build a really fluffy inquisitor army and I'm taking full advantage of it. If GW stopped soup it would pretty much kill the fluffy play style I use.


Of course it's possible you know to actually allow that sort of army AND get rid of general soup by making army that is specifically created to work like that. And this way units in that army could be balanced so that it's balanced with soup in mind while being independent from non-soup version.

GW used to do codexes in that style. Then they decided they make more ££££ by removing restrictions from usage of models.

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Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

IG's dominance is not subjective - that's a fact.
IG (pre-nerf) having better morale than Space Marines - that's a fact.
Tyranids have inherent weaknesses that IG doesn't. And you know this. People don't complain about factions they can beat.

IG in its current form still renders a lot of armies irrelevant. The fact that commissars aren't being used is because your screens can still do their job without them. If you capped all squad sizes at 10 and restored Commissar's previous ability, I doubt people would bother with them. But they would have the same ability.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/09 22:16:00


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






 Galas wrote:
Commisars kill 1 dude, reduce morale loses by D6. Lord Commisars D6+3. Yarrick 3D6.
One commisar can BLAM! more than one unit a turn. 3" range.

I think thats the best compromise. (I can't give a point cost to commisars with that rule before playtesting it). With that and Infantry Squads being 5ppm I think Conscripts at 4ppm will have again a place as what they are supposed to be, meathshields.


I dunno, at this point I am personally thinking that it might be more interesting to have them remove leadership debuffs. It gives them a niche without making squads completely immune to morale. Say a normal Commissar removes 1 point of debuff, a Lord 1d3, and Yarrick just a straight 3. It will make guardsmen hold the line vs certain builds, without completely negating morale checks. It also fits the fluff of the Commissar committing their troops to acts of bravery (whether they want to or not).

I am kind of curious what people think good fixes for other broken units might be.

Vanquishers for example are kind of garbage, but if they are buffed to true tank killers, then they'd be too strong without a big points increase. What would be a good middle ground where they are actually good at their job while also not becoming an auto-take?

Veterans kind of suck because, even with 5 point Infantry, for 1 point less per model you can pay close to half price for plasma, or 5 points less for melta, and have 9 ablative wounds to go with it. Meanwhile, for 1 point more you can just go admech and take Skitarii Rangers with better saves, invulnerable saves, a better base weapon, and a troop. They need something, but it also needs to be something small, lest they become an auto-take. Something like giving them back doctrines for 1ppm each might help - that way you could customize them to your liking, either running them cheap, or making "scion-lite" by giving them 4+ armor, and so on.

What of Chimera? They need a little love as well, though whether that should come in the form of a price cut or a small buff elsewhere is beyond me.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:

Sure, he adds one shot.
Or he adds a Markerlight counter(which a Stratagem can multiply to 3).
Or he brings Markerlight Drones.
Or Shield Drones.
Or just Gun Drones.

The Fireblade brings something aside from just his Aura.


1) an extra shot for 40 pts (the same cost as your entire infantry squad)
2) reroll ones and advance and fire IF he didn't shoot (also costs CP) and not guaranteed. Would only increase hits by 8%.
3-5) Costs extra points and can be taken in their own squads without a Fireblade anyway.

If I had the choice, I would scrap all that for IG orders in a heartbeat.
-FRFSRF: double your basic weapon shots (stupid good, only Guilliman's aura is better and he's like 400 pts)
-Move, Move, Move: Unit can potentially move a total of 19" on average in the turn. (stupid good again, very useful for objectives, no one else has this)
-Get back in the fight: withdraw and still fire (again, very useful)
etc...

And for a total of 10 pts you can triple the range of the effect. (two vox-casters). No one else gets that.

IG orders are FAR superior to any basic aura in the game because they are versatile and powerful. The number of orders per commander is negligible compared to their points cost. I honestly wish all commander auras had been based off of IG orders in how they function, their limits, and the options given. As opposed to reroll 1s all day.

But, this thread started about how Infantry Squads could become 5 ppm. Let's see how they would fare against Fire Warriors (and let's assume Fire warriors drop to 7 pts for the sake of the argument):


Drop the vox caster and add another guy and you're basically tied in points.

Now throw in a Company Commander and Fireblade, ignoring their point costs:




That's 5 point Guardsmen vs 7 point Fire Warriors. Considering that people are ok with Fire Warriors at 8 pts, it means that even at 5ppm, guard infantry is still undercosted. Also, that extra 6" doesn't help much when the Fireblade's ability only works at 15", whereas FRFSRF works up to 24". That's an extra 9" of outshooting Tau. Even so, at 30" 10 FW are only going to kill 2 Guardsmen a turn, that's 5 turns to kill one squad. They'd never make their points back in a game at that rate. That's hardly threatening.
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Fluff is not crunch. Leave lore out of a rule discusion. It doesnt belong in any capacity as a justification for what should be.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Veterans have no place. Before they where highly customizable but not any longer. They should remove the Veteran entry from the Codex and just make Scions 2ppm cheaper and give them a deepstrike 5ppm upgrade.

Ideally of course Veterans could regain their customization but under 8th edition design phylosophy thats isn't gonna happen.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

Deepstrike for 5ppm? That's ridiculous

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Deepstrike for 5ppm? That's ridiculous


With their special-weapon saturation thats only fair. Deepstrike has different cost for different units. And it would actually make Scions usable in transports without feeling stupid for doing so like I do.
Reivers pay 2ppm for deepstrike or pseudo deepstrike and they have 0 special weapons.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/09 22:26:48


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

They got their weapon cost increased to compensate, there's no need to increase their price further.

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 Bobthehero wrote:
They got their weapon cost increased to compensate, there's no need to increase their price further.


Yes it does. One of the reasons Veterans suck is that they are paying Scion prices without deepstrike. And Deepstriking plasma-Scions are still a over the top unit. They are way over the average in the power range of other troops of the game. Deepstrike is the wholle issue with the point cost of IG 3+ weapons. Put the price on deepstrike, not into the weapons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/09 22:29:03


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






 Galas wrote:
Veterans have no place. Before they where highly customizable but not any longer. They should remove the Veteran entry from the Codex and just make Scions 2ppm cheaper and give them a deepstrike 5ppm upgrade.

Ideally of course Veterans could regain their customization but under 8th edition design phylosophy thats isn't gonna happen.


I honestly wouldn't mind that overly much, would give me a reason to run Mech-Scions without feeling like an idiot, though I'd want the option to run either Taurox Prime or Chimera, rather than be locked into the one. But then again, I just like the Chimera's design more.

And hey, in 5 years when we get a new basic infantry kit, it might come with "veteran upgrades" to customize your squad with. Until such a time as the models themselves can match those customizations though, I doubt we'll see Veteran doctrines come back.
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

 Galas wrote:
 Bobthehero wrote:
They got their weapon cost increased to compensate, there's no need to increase their price further.


Yes it does. One of the reasons Veterans suck is that they are paying Scion prices without deepstrike. And Deepstriking plasma-Scions are still a over the top unit. They are way over the average in the power range of other troops of the game. Deepstrike is the wholle issue with the point cost of IG 3+ weapons. Put the price on deepstrike, not into the weapons.



So you'd cripple non plasma deep striking Scions to try and fix what is already fixed, okay.

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Yeah, I prefer mech-Scions all the way, but theres nearly 0 reasons to use them. Just deepstrike where you want them to be.


 Bobthehero wrote:
 Galas wrote:
 Bobthehero wrote:
They got their weapon cost increased to compensate, there's no need to increase their price further.


Yes it does. One of the reasons Veterans suck is that they are paying Scion prices without deepstrike. And Deepstriking plasma-Scions are still a over the top unit. They are way over the average in the power range of other troops of the game. Deepstrike is the wholle issue with the point cost of IG 3+ weapons. Put the price on deepstrike, not into the weapons.



So you'd cripple non plasma deep striking Scions to try and fix what is already fixed, okay.


Who is using Non-plasma Deep Striking Scions? Their other weapons options are useless in the context of Deepstrike. And if you are using deepstrike as a more reliable deployment option than a transport, not just to make them a kamikaze unit, then they should still pay over normal Scions in transports.

Scions aren't already fixed. They are still over the top in their deepstriking plasma form. Make deepstrike optionary and with a cost, and change the cost of plasma. That way you can fine tune the power of non deepstriking and deepstriking scions, and then how different weapons work in them. Even better if you remove Veterans from the Codex, because then 3+ versions of the weapons are basically just for Scions. If you want to make Melta cheaper than Plasma because in the context of Scions its actually a worse weapon, you can.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/09 22:33:34


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Galas wrote:
Commisars kill 1 dude, reduce morale loses by D6. Lord Commisars D6+3. Yarrick 3D6.
One commisar can BLAM! more than one unit a turn. 3" range.

I think thats the best compromise. (I can't give a point cost to commisars with that rule before playtesting it). With that and Infantry Squads being 5ppm I think Conscripts at 4ppm will have again a place as what they are supposed to be, meathshields.


That's not bad. My idea was to say that when you shoot the guy you don't roll D6 for the morale. It's just casualties+the guy who got shot>LD. It'd be like always rolling a 1 for morale.
   
 
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