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ClockworkZion wrote: I almost think the original intent of the -1 to hit outside of 12" rule was a way to discourage gunline armies that has sadly gone horribly wrong.
Almost certainly. Range is an incredible advantage in games. It's almost impossible not to be. Games need rules to reign in range and balance out melee, but as soon as you create a ranged unit with anti-range tech you lose the purpose of the rule and create an alpha predator instead. Most of the time this actually happens with terrain rules. They generally exist to help deliver melee, but ranged units are far more capable of taking advantage of a fixed position so they end up better off on tables designed to reign them in. Raven Guard absolutely are supposed to be using that to protect assaulting lighting claws, but it makes their scout squads way more powerful instead. Eldar are just the logical extreme of this problem (until Tau....)
Martel732 wrote: We don't know what altioc looks like without op dark reapers.
They probably exist in more casual enviroments.
Without Dark Reapers, and how short range most of Eldar shooting is, Alaitoc is not a problem. The -1 to hit works most like a defense if they go second, but after the first turn is not relevant most of the time. And without the OP Dark Reapers, Eldar really can't just sit back and shoot you out of the table.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Mathhammer is a shame. Its a dice game. Tactics is a huge part of this game. How long have you actually played 40k? You sound like a batrep commando.
Uhh, let's see...24 years.
Do you mean math hammer is a sham? Math hammer isn't the be-all end-all, no, but it guides lots of decisions. Only a fool uses it exclusively. But you can't seriously sit here and tell me Dark Reapers are properly costed and that it's "tactics" to cram as many of them as possible into a list aside from a unit of SS and some psychic support.
The credit I give to the top LVO players is using the army efficiently well on the table - thinking fast, moving precisely, and targeting properly. I'm not giving them credit as geniuses for spamming a couple of units.
Only 23 years here. Lol.
Strangly we are saying the same thing. Just both over using absolutes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/15 23:19:33
I wholeheartedly disagree. Mathhammer is a shame. Its a dice game. Tactics is a huge part of this game. How long have you actually played 40k? You sound like a batrep commando.
...
But you can't seriously sit here and tell me Dark Reapers are properly costed and that it's "tactics" to cram as many of them as possible into a list aside from a unit of SS and some psychic support.
The credit I give to the top LVO players is using the army efficiently well on the table - thinking fast, moving precisely, and targeting properly. I'm not giving them credit as geniuses for spamming a couple of units.
This is the competitive scene of 40k summed up in a nutshell. Sites like BOLS and FLG only compound the issue further. Wasn't the top 5 Eldar lists or something almost identical? Taking the best cost effective units and spamming the crap out of it and then claim to be a tactical genius.
I'm sure they are very good players, but they are spamming very good armies. If you gave the top players GK lists, I'm fairly confident they wouldn't win. Spamming is not "tactics"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/16 03:09:31
"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.
To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle
I wholeheartedly disagree. Mathhammer is a shame. Its a dice game. Tactics is a huge part of this game. How long have you actually played 40k? You sound like a batrep commando.
...
But you can't seriously sit here and tell me Dark Reapers are properly costed and that it's "tactics" to cram as many of them as possible into a list aside from a unit of SS and some psychic support.
The credit I give to the top LVO players is using the army efficiently well on the table - thinking fast, moving precisely, and targeting properly. I'm not giving them credit as geniuses for spamming a couple of units.
This is the competitive scene of 40k summed up in a nutshell. Sites like BOLS and FLG only compound the issue further. Wasn't the top 5 Eldar lists or something almost identical? Taking the best cost effective units and spamming the crap out of it and then claim to be a tactical genius.
I'm sure they are very good players, but they are spamming very good armies. If you gave the top players GK lists, I'm fairly confident they wouldn't win. Spamming is not "tactics"
Well if that's really the case, feel free to take your fluff army and crush the competition with your superior tactics and knowledge of the game.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
ClockworkZion wrote: I feel like if sales were the only goal then they would never bother nerfing things, just release progressively more broken stuff. But they do try and balance stuff, so it shows that while they will never try to outright make something worthless (and thus make it unsellable) they will try and balance things as best they can to ensure people enjoy playing the game.
It\s bit harder to change meta regarding older units without changing those values. Especially now with their miniature releases being...Well zero. It's lot cheaper way for them to change people's purchase habits by releasing bunch of point cost changes than releasing new model.
And balance...As in nerf into uselessness so people will buy something else instead.
They give IMPRESSION of balancing but when you look it you notice it's actually just nerfing some stuff into uselessness while boosting up other stuff into OP status. Generally reverse of what was before. With my IG army from 7th ed it was fairly good for 7th ed. Come 8th ed and whoom guess what? Pretty much all that I had that was good in 7th ed was suddenly crap and reverse so if I would like to seriously play I would need to pretty much buy new IG army. That's how GW operates. Now they have just increased smoke&mirror more to fool people that they care about balance when they don't.
Again: Balance is BAD for their operation as that means no incentive to buy anything. However if they keep changing meta that means all the tournament players are constantly rushing in to buy new models to keep up with the shifting meta. Plagueburst crawlers are OP? Good. They sell like hot cakes. Then when they get nerfed into uselessness those players just shelve those and buy whatever new model becomes new OP. That's what GW wants to see. If things were balanced there would be no need to buy new models as PBC would still be just fine.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/16 04:11:26
I wholeheartedly disagree. Mathhammer is a shame. Its a dice game. Tactics is a huge part of this game. How long have you actually played 40k? You sound like a batrep commando.
...
But you can't seriously sit here and tell me Dark Reapers are properly costed and that it's "tactics" to cram as many of them as possible into a list aside from a unit of SS and some psychic support.
The credit I give to the top LVO players is using the army efficiently well on the table - thinking fast, moving precisely, and targeting properly. I'm not giving them credit as geniuses for spamming a couple of units.
This is the competitive scene of 40k summed up in a nutshell. Sites like BOLS and FLG only compound the issue further. Wasn't the top 5 Eldar lists or something almost identical? Taking the best cost effective units and spamming the crap out of it and then claim to be a tactical genius.
I'm sure they are very good players, but they are spamming very good armies. If you gave the top players GK lists, I'm fairly confident they wouldn't win. Spamming is not "tactics"
Well if that's really the case, feel free to take your fluff army and crush the competition with your superior tactics and knowledge of the game.
Missed the point by a mile.
"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.
To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle
I wholeheartedly disagree. Mathhammer is a shame. Its a dice game. Tactics is a huge part of this game. How long have you actually played 40k? You sound like a batrep commando.
...
But you can't seriously sit here and tell me Dark Reapers are properly costed and that it's "tactics" to cram as many of them as possible into a list aside from a unit of SS and some psychic support.
The credit I give to the top LVO players is using the army efficiently well on the table - thinking fast, moving precisely, and targeting properly. I'm not giving them credit as geniuses for spamming a couple of units.
This is the competitive scene of 40k summed up in a nutshell. Sites like BOLS and FLG only compound the issue further. Wasn't the top 5 Eldar lists or something almost identical? Taking the best cost effective units and spamming the crap out of it and then claim to be a tactical genius.
I'm sure they are very good players, but they are spamming very good armies. If you gave the top players GK lists, I'm fairly confident they wouldn't win. Spamming is not "tactics"
Well if that's really the case, feel free to take your fluff army and crush the competition with your superior tactics and knowledge of the game.
Missed the point by a mile.
No I didn't. A good player will know if the list and army is going to be garbage and you were questioning how good they were simply because of what you perceive as "spam".
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Read what I wrote again and you'll see I wasn't questioning how good of a player they were, in fact quite the opposite.
They are playing with a codex that has rules that alter the mechanics of the rules and stack the odds of the dice being favourable. If X is twice as good as Y and Z, then why would you ever take anything but X to have the best chance of winning?
I like competitive games just as much as anyone else, but don't pretend that competitive gaming doesn't involve taking the best units out of your codex and spam the crap out of it. Some armies do it better than others.
"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.
To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle
I wholeheartedly disagree. Mathhammer is a shame. Its a dice game. Tactics is a huge part of this game. How long have you actually played 40k? You sound like a batrep commando.
...
But you can't seriously sit here and tell me Dark Reapers are properly costed and that it's "tactics" to cram as many of them as possible into a list aside from a unit of SS and some psychic support.
The credit I give to the top LVO players is using the army efficiently well on the table - thinking fast, moving precisely, and targeting properly. I'm not giving them credit as geniuses for spamming a couple of units.
This is the competitive scene of 40k summed up in a nutshell. Sites like BOLS and FLG only compound the issue further. Wasn't the top 5 Eldar lists or something almost identical? Taking the best cost effective units and spamming the crap out of it and then claim to be a tactical genius.
I'm sure they are very good players, but they are spamming very good armies. If you gave the top players GK lists, I'm fairly confident they wouldn't win. Spamming is not "tactics"
If you give them GK lists and pit them against lists of similar power they will likely win.
If you give them GK lists and pit them against top eldar lists played by other good players they will likely lose. Not because they don't know tactics but because tactics only get you so far.
The same people keep coming up in a field full of 'spam' netlists.
Either they can spam better then the other spammers for mystery reasons or they are actually better players.
tneva82 wrote: Naah all the eldar players just randomly all decided simultaneously they REALLY like dark reaper models and fluff Isn't that obvious?
Eldar are a spontaneous bunch, you know. For example, in 6-th they all decided they LOVE hover tanks but not the ones with a bird or geometrical object in it's name those are lame and had awful fluff. Also, windriders all armed with scatterlasers were deemed fluffy later on.
Ordana wrote: If you give them GK lists and pit them against lists of similar power they will likely win.
If you give them GK lists and pit them against top eldar lists played by other good players they will likely lose. Not because they don't know tactics but because tactics only get you so far.
The same people keep coming up in a field full of 'spam' netlists.
Either they can spam better then the other spammers for mystery reasons or they are actually better players.
That's again missing the point. They may be better players, but list usually matters more than player skill. Give the people at the top subpar lists and they likely will hit mid rank at best, as previously mediocre tournament players still using the net list leapfrog them. Skill and tactics matter, but list probably does as much or more.
There have been times where previously unknown players ended up higher, because one of the lists/armies they'd been using for years suddenly got a lot better. The people who consistently win tournaments probably aren't the best players, though they are still better than most. What keeps them there is that they are the ones willing and able to purchase a new army every time the meta changes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/16 16:21:21
tneva82 wrote: Naah all the eldar players just randomly all decided simultaneously they REALLY like dark reaper models and fluff Isn't that obvious?
Eldar are a spontaneous bunch, you know. For example, in 6-th they all decided they LOVE hover tanks but not the ones with a bird or geometrical object in it's name those are lame and had awful fluff. Also, windriders all armed with scatterlasers were deemed fluffy later on.
Funny story - when you look at the LVO, it was an Eldar player who decided that he really liked Ynnari Dark Reapers after doing a significant amount of testing ahead of time. *An,* as in singular. Then several people copied his list and did well with it (and weren't shy about admitting it).
tneva82 wrote: Again: Balance is BAD for their operation as that means no incentive to buy anything.
I'm a bit dubious about this. If anything, it seems like it would be the other way around.
If everything is balanced, then you've got a perfect incentive to buy more - to expand your army, to get the models you like, to do the conversions you've always wanted - and without ever sacrificing performance on the table.
It's bad balance that turns people off - because they'll be spending a load of money and effort on models that will be crap on the table.
tneva82 wrote: However if they keep changing meta that means all the tournament players are constantly rushing in to buy new models to keep up with the shifting meta. Plagueburst crawlers are OP? Good. They sell like hot cakes. Then when they get nerfed into uselessness those players just shelve those and buy whatever new model becomes new OP. That's what GW wants to see. If things were balanced there would be no need to buy new models as PBC would still be just fine.
This seems like a bad idea in the long run. I don't doubt that some tournament players will do this, but many others will quickly be priced out of an increasingly pay-to-win game. And it'll be even worse for newer or more casual players with small collections.
Furthermore, continuing to nerf stuff - often into uselessness (see Conscripts, Commissars etc.) - just makes me think it's not worth buying anything new. Why bother if there's a chance it could become virtually unusable a few months down the line?
To be clear, you might well be right in terms of this being GW's mindset - I just don't think it's a good idea.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Sometimes Wizards prints cards that are 'Too Good'. They then ban these cards from competative play.
However, too much banning causes a massive sales drop, as no-one wants to buy into expensive cards if they think they're just gonna get banned. Which is why Wizards has such a massively fine tuned design process because bad card design = loss of confidence in the company = Sales drop.
The best way to fix overpowered cards is not to print them at all.
Furthermore, continuing to nerf stuff - often into uselessness (see Conscripts, Commissars etc.) - just makes me think it's not worth buying anything new. Why bother if there's a chance it could become virtually unusable a few months down the line?
This is the only reason I haven't bought a guard battalion to suppliment my SM.
If I was sure they'd stay the same points I would have been bought 40-60 guard, 3-4 LRBTs and a couple manticores (if I could find them in stock). You know, if you can't beat them join them.
But with rumored point changes "right around the corner" I don't want to go through the process only to shelve them next to my drop pods, land raiders, terminators, grimaldus, helbrecht, chaplins, assault marines, dreadnoughts (damn marines have a lot of crap units that I seem to own), guilliman, repulsor, redemptor...
Furthermore, continuing to nerf stuff - often into uselessness (see Conscripts, Commissars etc.) - just makes me think it's not worth buying anything new. Why bother if there's a chance it could become virtually unusable a few months down the line?
This is the only reason I haven't bought a guard battalion to suppliment my SM.
If I was sure they'd stay the same points I would have been bought 40-60 guard, 3-4 LRBTs and a couple manticores (if I could find them in stock). You know, if you can't beat them join them.
But with rumored point changes "right around the corner" I don't want to go through the process only to shelve them next to my drop pods, land raiders, terminators, grimaldus, helbrecht, chaplins, assault marines, dreadnoughts (damn marines have a lot of crap units that I seem to own), guilliman, repulsor, redemptor...
For some reason the cooler something is in the lore and in design the worse it seems to play competitively....
Reminder that it is a general balance update, not only a Guard nerf.
We simply don't have the info needed to know how it will shake the meta aside of some rumored nerf to Guard, but likely it will include other nerfs to problematic units, plus buffs to underperforming units.
Tyran wrote: Reminder that it is a general balance update, not only a Guard nerf.
We simply don't have the info needed to know how it will shake the meta aside of some rumored nerf to Guard, but likely it will include other nerfs to problematic units, plus buffs to underperforming units.
Fingers crossed for Tyranids. Broodlord price drop here we come.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Tyran wrote: Reminder that it is a general balance update, not only a Guard nerf.
We simply don't have the info needed to know how it will shake the meta aside of some rumored nerf to Guard, but likely it will include other nerfs to problematic units, plus buffs to underperforming units.
Fingers crossed for Tyranids. Broodlord price drop here we come.
I expect that the Broodlord will have a base price drop, if only because the MRC should get a price increase.
Tyran wrote: Reminder that it is a general balance update, not only a Guard nerf.
We simply don't have the info needed to know how it will shake the meta aside of some rumored nerf to Guard, but likely it will include other nerfs to problematic units, plus buffs to underperforming units.
Fingers crossed for Tyranids. Broodlord price drop here we come.
I expect that the Broodlord will have a base price drop, if only because the MRC should get a price increase.
lol what? You can't be serious.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Tyran wrote: Reminder that it is a general balance update, not only a Guard nerf.
We simply don't have the info needed to know how it will shake the meta aside of some rumored nerf to Guard, but likely it will include other nerfs to problematic units, plus buffs to underperforming units.
Fingers crossed for Tyranids. Broodlord price drop here we come.
I expect that the Broodlord will have a base price drop, if only because the MRC should get a price increase.
lol what? You can't be serious.
Monstrous Rending Claws are regarded by some (if not most) as being too cheap (because they're free) on (Flying) Hive Tyrants. Based on past changes, if you want to look to see which units/weapons will be hit with the nerf bat, look for units that are being spammed. My understanding is that top-placing Tyranid lists have 2+ Flying Hive Tyrants with MRC + (gun of choice).
Martel732 wrote: IG players can flip the tables all they like. GW did some serious miscalculations with their entire list, but unlike previous editions, they aren't letting it stand. 4 ppm guardsmen are showing up everywhere for a reason. Just like dark reapers are showing up everywhere for a reason.
This, and that's coming from a part-time Guard player, 4 PPM would be justified just for the stats and the equipment, but not when you add orders, regiment and detachment bonuses on top. 5 points are definitely okay, particularly if something like Fire Warriors stay at 8 points.
They will still be a good choice but not so auto-include good that they pop up in all the Imperial armies (at least not to such an extend), while balancing against other GEQ choices in other Codices.
Martel732 wrote: We don't know what altioc looks like without op dark reapers.
They probably exist in more casual enviroments.
Without Dark Reapers, and how short range most of Eldar shooting is, Alaitoc is not a problem. The -1 to hit works most like a defense if they go second, but after the first turn is not relevant most of the time. And without the OP Dark Reapers, Eldar really can't just sit back and shoot you out of the table.
I think you guys (just quoting Galas here because his post was the easiest to quote) are ignoring one issue with the "free -1 to hit army ability", and focusing too much on it's impact on BS4+ armies that can spam cheap firepower that compensates for the -33% chance to hit.
There is one massive issue with that though: Tau (and to a lesser extend any other BS4+ unit with a high price and few, powerful shots)
Basically everything the Tau in their current form have to offer and that isn't Commanders, Longstrike and Longstrike buffed Hammerheads is BS4+. BS4+ with powerful and expensive weapons, with high PPM even for the GEQ infantry. Playing against any remotely competitive Raven Guard, Alpha Legion or Alaitoc list is a massive headache to the point that I as a Tau player who isn't spamming Commanders, feel like I shouldn't even bother setting up when I see that I'm facing a gunline army, I will simply get outshot and "just get close" simply doesn't work for most units, even without taking any strategems into account. The only units that can effectively play around it are Vespids (good, but elite choice that are pricy enough so you can't spam them), Ghostkeels (completely overpriced) and Stealth Suits (PPM is way too high and killing-performance too low, they are a solid auxiliary unit for homing beacon delivery, disruption and objective play, with low PPW). Other choices such as Breachers in a Devilfish come with a high point investment and are easily disabled.
Just consider the Rail Rifle Broadside: 171 points for a BS4+ plattform that is basically equipped with two souped up missile launchers (with -3AP and a single extra mortal wound on wound rolls of 6) and two borderline useless S6 only, no overcharge plasma guns. They are already an inefficient unit as they are, but against any -1 to hit army they just become completely useless.
Even otherwise pretty good and competitive units such as massed fire warriors buffed by Cadre Fireblades and pulse accelerator drones suddenly become overpriced handicaps against ranged Raven Guard or Alaitoc armies, the high quality high volume of fire can't compete with a nerf down to a 33% hit chance... and you get slaughtered in close combat if you move within 12".
It's also one of the absolute premier reasons why Tau Commanders get spammed so much, they are great units that suffer little from the -1 to hit meta, unlike almost the entire rest of the army.
If the Tau codex doesn't see either see BS increases across the board, big buffs to the markerlight table (e.g. +1 BS for 2 or 3 markerlights, +2 BS for 5 ), 1 or 2 CP strategems that allow several units to ignore -1 to hit modifiers or big point decreases across most units (several units such as Riptides or Broadsides still need a big point decrease anyway, mind), I just don't see how 90% of the Tau units (which are BS4+ or BS5+) are going to be worth it generally, especially with Commander nerfs already having been announced.
Balance against armies without negative to hit modifiers is going to be an issue here, I hope they fix it by just giving easy access to markerlights/strategems/special rules to ignore negative modifiers, while adjusting points for units in accordance to armies without it (internal balance in the Index is bad, so point decreases are needed in any case).
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2018/02/16 22:22:51
Dark it was, and dire of form
the beast that laid them low
Hrothgar's sharpened frost-forged blade
to deal a fatal blow
he stalked and hunted day and night
and came upon it's lair
With sword and shield Hrothgar fought
and earned the name of slayer
I saw an interesting solution to nerfing soup the other day that could be implemented without hurting mono-codex armies: minimum detachment cost. Say that adding a new detachment costs at least 500 points (just a random number I threw out there). If the units in that detachment cost less than that, you pay 500 points for the detachment instead of the cost of the individual units/gear in it. This way, someone can't just take a couple minimum infantry squads and a cheap HQ for some super cheap CP. Thoughts?
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress 2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
Like someone earlier in this thread said, guard infantry don't actually "do" anything. Marine armies take guard because they're a cheap way to get command points and throw disposable bodies at something to try and hold a turn before they're dead.
Now that's certainly valuable in and of itself, but I think its a bit silly to try and build up infantry firepower or survivability like its worth a damn. It's not. Infantry squads rarely kill anything, or survive if they're shot. Soup lists take naked infantry squads (sometimes with a mortar to deny the "kill 10" in ITC missions).
Guard infantry aren't a problem. If you think soup lists taking infantry IS a problem, it's a problem with soup, NOT with guard. Solo guard lists are borderline not competitive. If infantry was so broken you'd see infantry heavy guard lists everywhere. You don't. And the answer isn't to feth the guard codex even further because some blood angels decided to throw a couple hundred points of naked infantry in their list.
Martel732 wrote: IG players can flip the tables all they like. GW did some serious miscalculations with their entire list, but unlike previous editions, they aren't letting it stand. 4 ppm guardsmen are showing up everywhere for a reason. Just like dark reapers are showing up everywhere for a reason.
This, and that's coming from a part-time Guard player, 4 PPM would be justified just for the stats and the equipment, but not when you add orders, regiment and detachment bonuses on top. 5 points are definitely okay, particularly if something like Fire Warriors stay at 8 points.
They will still be a good choice but not so auto-include good that they pop up in all the Imperial armies (at least not to such an extend), while balancing against other GEQ choices in other Codices.
Martel732 wrote: We don't know what altioc looks like without op dark reapers.
They probably exist in more casual enviroments.
Without Dark Reapers, and how short range most of Eldar shooting is, Alaitoc is not a problem. The -1 to hit works most like a defense if they go second, but after the first turn is not relevant most of the time. And without the OP Dark Reapers, Eldar really can't just sit back and shoot you out of the table.
I think you guys (just quoting Galas here because his post was the easiest to quote) are ignoring one issue with the "free -1 to hit army ability", and focusing too much on it's impact on BS4+ armies that can spam cheap firepower that compensates for the -33% chance to hit.
There is one massive issue with that though: Tau
Basically everything the Tau in their current form have to offer and that isn't Commanders, Longstrike and Longstrike buffed Hammerheads is BS4+. BS4+ with powerful and expensive weapons, with high PPM even for the GEQ infantry. Playing against any remotely competitive Raven Guard, Alpha Legion or Alaitoc list is a massive headache to the point that I as a Tau player feel like I shouldn't even bother setting up when I see that I'm facing a gunline army, I will simply get outshot and "just get close" simply doesn't work for most units, even without taking any strategems into account. The only units that can effectively play around it are Vespids (good, but elite choice that are pricy enough so you can't spam them), Ghostkeels (completely overpriced) and Stealth Suits (PPM is way to high and killing-performance too low, they are a solid auxiliary unit for homing beacon delivery, disruption and objective play, with low PPW). Other choices such as Breachers in Devilfish come with a high point investment and are easily disabled.
Just consider the Rail Rifle Broadside: 171 points for a BS4+ plattform that is basically equipped with two souped up missile launchers (with -3AP and a single extra mortal wound on wound rolls of 6) and two borderline useless S6 only, no overcharge plasma guns. They are already an inefficient unit as they are, but against any -1 to hit army they just become completely useless.
Even otherwise pretty good and competitive units such as massed fire warriors buffed by Cadre Fireblades and pulse accelerator drones suddenly become overpriced handicaps against ranged Raven Guard or Alaitoc armies, the high quality high volume of fire can't compete with a nerf down to a 33% hit chance... and you get slaughtered in close combat if you move within 12".
It's also one of the absolute premier reasons why Tau Commanders get spammed so much, they are great units that suffer little from the -1 to hit meta, unlike almost the entire rest of the army.
If the Tau codex doesn't see either see BS increases across the board, big buffs to the markerlight table (e.g. +1 BS for 2 or 3 markerlights, +2 BS for 5 ), 1 or 2 CP strategems that allow several units to ignore -1 to hit modifiers or big point decreases across most units (several units such as Riptides or Broadsides still need a big point decrease anyway, mind), I just don't see how 90% of the Tau units (which are BS4+ or BS5+) are going to be worth it.
Balance against armies without negative to hit modifiers is going to be an issue here, I hope they fix it by just giving easy access to markerlights/strategems/special rules to ignore negative modifiers, while adjusting points for units in accordance to armies without it (internal balance in the Index is bad, so point decreases are needed in any case).
I'm a Tau player (They are my biggest army) so I can totally understand you. But to be honest I didn't even bother to play Tau in 8th. I'll wait for their Codex to see if the faction becomes playable in semi competitive metas without spamming Commanders. If not, I'll continue to play with my other armies.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
5300 | 
2800 | 
3600 | 
1600 | 
Isn't that obvious?
: 3350
: 200
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
