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ThePorcupine wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
As previously discussed over MANY PAGES: 5ppm re-balances Infantry Squads into line with Conscripts and Veterans. MANY Guard players have said it doesn't even do anything to hurt the army. So yeah, hyperbole all the way.

Many have said it doesn't do anything to hurt their army. Many have said otherwise. Factually what it will do is cost every guard list between 60 and 120 extra points. You can look at how Guard is doing in the competitive setting right now with 4 point infantry and gauge it from there. They're not going to improve. This isn't a matter of opinion. If you have 10 dollars and take away 2 dollars, you have less money. You are not better off. You're not breaking even.

The degree to which guard will be worse off we'll see of course. Guard was super strong when it first came out because most other armies were index only. With each new codex guard becomes less and less impressive comparatively and guard's "bag of tricks" becomes smaller and smaller. Conscript blobs and morale invulnerability got cut. Outflanking 3 units of vehicles got cut. Replenishing valhallan troops got cut. Cheap psykers got cut. Vehicles taking cover got cut. Guard doesn't really have tricks to make them competitive.

No one who claims it actually hurts their army has presented anything other than complaints ranging "but 7th edition" to "BUT ELDAR!" and no math or any other evidence that it actually hurts the army.

Also learn about how budgetting works before you compare 40k army building to having money. Either scenario (pre-increase/post-increase) you have the same amount of points (money) you just spend it differently. Your whole argument was bad and honestly you should feel bad for even trying to pull that.

Guard are a solid book and are likely to see MORE THAN ONE CHANGE in this update (assuming this change is even true), but you're acting like everything is going to hinge on this single detail. Get over yourself already.

ThePorcupine wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
As previously discussed over MANY PAGES: 5ppm re-balances Infantry Squads into line with Conscripts and Veterans. MANY Guard players have said it doesn't even do anything to hurt the army. So yeah, hyperbole all the way.

Many have said it doesn't do anything to hurt their army. Many have said otherwise. Factually what it will do is cost every guard list between 60 and 120 extra points. You can look at how Guard is doing in the competitive setting right now with 4 point infantry and gauge it from there. They're not going to improve. This isn't a matter of opinion. If you have 10 dollars and take away 2 dollars, you have less money. You are not better off. You're not breaking even.

The degree to which guard will be worse off we'll see of course. Guard was super strong when it first came out because most other armies were index only. With each new codex guard becomes less and less impressive comparatively and guard's "bag of tricks" becomes smaller and smaller. Conscript blobs and morale invulnerability got cut. Outflanking 3 units of vehicles got cut. Replenishing valhallan troops got cut. Cheap psykers got cut. Vehicles taking cover got cut. Guard doesn't really have tricks to make them competitive.

Guard psykers are still way too cheap.

What? This is a thread discussing specifically the rumor that infantry squads are going from 4ppm to 5ppm, and that thing alone. Whether guard will see more changes or not nobody knows. That's not what this thread is about. You're upset that I'm not taking other imaginary changes into account?

My claim that this change will hurt my army is not and has never been "but 7th!" or "but ELDAR!". My "math" and "evidence" is the simplest most straightforward argument I can present. It's that, if the rumored change is real, infantry will cost more. If you take a pre-nerf guard list and a post-nerf guard list, the post-nerf will have 60-120 points less worth of stuff.

You could say that maybe guard will try experimenting with conscripts or veterans since infantry will be much less appealing. This would be the "Guard players budget differently" rant you went on. But I'm of the opinion that, again, taking into account just this one rumored change because THAT'S WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT, neither of those options are as cost-effective. Conscripts have to make significant investments in mitigating morale (banners, LD10 bubbles, valhallan mark .45), and veterans are straddling a weird middle-area between infantry and scions without any of the utility.

If they buff veterans along with nerfing infantry squads? Great! Or make transports much cheaper? Or buff conscripts? All good. Will there be other changes? Probably. But that's not what this thread is about. I'm oh so very sorry.

ThePorcupine wrote:
What? This is a thread discussing specifically the rumor that infantry squads are going from 4ppm to 5ppm, and that thing alone. Whether guard will see more changes or not nobody knows. That's not what this thread is about. You're upset that I'm not taking other imaginary changes into account?

My claim that this change will hurt my army is not and has never been "but 7th!" or "but ELDAR!". My "math" and "evidence" is the simplest most straightforward argument I can present. It's that, if the rumored change is real, infantry will cost more. If you take a pre-nerf guard list and a post-nerf guard list, the post-nerf will have 60-120 points less worth of stuff.

You could say that maybe guard will try experimenting with conscripts or veterans since infantry will be much less appealing. This would be the "Guard players budget differently" rant you went on. But I'm of the opinion that, again, taking into account just this one rumored change because THAT'S WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT, neither of those options are as cost-effective. Conscripts have to make significant investments in mitigating morale (banners, LD10 bubbles, valhallan mark .45), and veterans are straddling a weird middle-area between infantry and scions without any of the utility.

If they buff veterans along with nerfing infantry squads? Great! Or make transports much cheaper? Or buff conscripts? All good. Will there be other changes? Probably. But that's not what this thread is about. I'm oh so very sorry.

Even as the point of this thread it's not enough to rage about.

Assault cannons went from 21 to 22 in CA. It didn't bother me because I was losing all my games already anyway.

GO MARINES!!!

 ClockworkZion wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
"I guess 5ppm infantry is fine. I'm okay never seeing guard place in tournaments again."

"never again" may be hyperbolic, but to reiterate, guard is NOT overpowerforming in competitions. And people want to knock them down a peg because they're mad at soup lists.

I'd be fine with 5ppm infantry if you made troop transports significantly cheaper or something. Buff veterans, ratlings, psykers, chimeras, hydras, deathstrikes, voxes, medics, multilasers.

As previously discussed over MANY PAGES: 5ppm re-balances Infantry Squads into line with Conscripts and Veterans.

I suspect not in practice, there's still not much of a reason to take Conscripts, making Infantry Squad guardsmen 5ppm isn't going to make Conscripts much more attractive, and Veterans don't serve the same role or fill the same detachment slot.

Yeah, I think that at 5 ppm you still prefer Infantry for bodies on the table. Veterans look okay if you're giving them weapons and a transport. If Elysian Drop Troopers get a similar bump then their Veterans start to look appealing as drop-in lasgunners. Conscripts just aren't going to work without some kind of Fearless rule, and I suspect that GW is leery of giving that back to them.

ThePorcupine wrote:
What? This is a thread discussing specifically the rumor that infantry squads are going from 4ppm to 5ppm, and that thing alone. Whether guard will see more changes or not nobody knows. That's not what this thread is about. You're upset that I'm not taking other imaginary changes into account?

My claim that this change will hurt my army is not and has never been "but 7th!" or "but ELDAR!". My "math" and "evidence" is the simplest most straightforward argument I can present. It's that, if the rumored change is real, infantry will cost more. If you take a pre-nerf guard list and a post-nerf guard list, the post-nerf will have 60-120 points less worth of stuff.

You could say that maybe guard will try experimenting with conscripts or veterans since infantry will be much less appealing. This would be the "Guard players budget differently" rant you went on. But I'm of the opinion that, again, taking into account just this one rumored change because THAT'S WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT, neither of those options are as cost-effective. Conscripts have to make significant investments in mitigating morale (banners, LD10 bubbles, valhallan mark .45), and veterans are straddling a weird middle-area between infantry and scions without any of the utility.

If they buff veterans along with nerfing infantry squads? Great! Or make transports much cheaper? Or buff conscripts? All good. Will there be other changes? Probably. But that's not what this thread is about. I'm oh so very sorry.

The thread isn't just about the rumoured increase in infantry points cost actually.

First off the title is "March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf" which implies there will be other changes in this FAQ.

If you read the OP this thread probably should have been locked from the outset. It's effectively a self aggrandising rant about how Guard have been nerfed more than any other faction and that this isn't fair and the only reason Guard feature in tournaments is due to soup lists (in which they are the smaller part of another faction, apparently). It's a pretty poor read if I'm honest, I'm not surprised there's been 30 odd pages of bickering and salt because they way the op opened the discussion was incredibly salty.

If you want to pretend that no other army exists and these are going to be the only changes (if there are any at all) you can go ahead but I don't see much of a discussion beyond the aforementioned 'my army is now 60-120 pts more expensive now :('. Which isn't a discussion at all. Its a statement.

Ice_can wrote:
The heavy weapon team is listed as having a mortar and lasgun and 8th edition you can fire every weapon hence the heavy weapon team can fire both. (No books to hand to check this)

Point conceded there, I forgot that was a thing for infantry too.

Though on mortars, they do seem a bit overtuned too...5 points for 48", no LOS, s4 d6 hits isn't all that much. If indirect fire in general gets a nerf it should be ok, but if not some other small change might be needed - like a bump to 8 points or a reduction to a d3 hits.

And I guess I should note, since its been about 10-15 pages since I've said it, I do think Guard at 5ppm is fine, I just hope that if the good is nerfed, then the bad is also buffed.

I'd also enjoy an actual rumor with more than one data point. I mean, if generic Guardsmen get a +1ppm bump, but they also for some unspeakable reason buff an already good unit into brokenness, nothing will really be fixed, and could get worse.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
As previously discussed over MANY PAGES: 5ppm re-balances Infantry Squads into line with Conscripts and Veterans. MANY Guard players have said it doesn't even do anything to hurt the army. So yeah, hyperbole all the way.

Many have said it doesn't do anything to hurt their army. Many have said otherwise. Factually what it will do is cost every guard list between 60 and 120 extra points. You can look at how Guard is doing in the competitive setting right now with 4 point infantry and gauge it from there. They're not going to improve. This isn't a matter of opinion. If you have 10 dollars and take away 2 dollars, you have less money. You are not better off. You're not breaking even.

The degree to which guard will be worse off we'll see of course. Guard was super strong when it first came out because most other armies were index only. With each new codex guard becomes less and less impressive comparatively and guard's "bag of tricks" becomes smaller and smaller. Conscript blobs and morale invulnerability got cut. Outflanking 3 units of vehicles got cut. Replenishing valhallan troops got cut. Cheap psykers got cut. Vehicles taking cover got cut. Guard doesn't really have tricks to make them competitive.

No one who claims it actually hurts their army has presented anything other than complaints ranging "but 7th edition" to "BUT ELDAR!" and no math or any other evidence that it actually hurts the army.

I don't think we need much math to illustrate that increasing a unit's point cost hurts an army, isn't it self evident? Now, we can discuss how much it hurts an army, but there should be no arguing about whether or not it hurts - it obviously does. If mono-guard is borderline competitive, which I will grant is not a given but it's not like they are crushing tournaments either, too many more pushes in the nerf direction may end them in a bad place without actually fixing the issues with Imperial soup. A small nerf to the most important unit in an army, this is infantry for Guard, may be a much bigger nerf to the faction as a whole than is immediately apparent.

Please tell me how losing the equivalent of a Basilisk in points somehow manages to not significantly hurt a Guard army. That's a 12.5% drop in my LVO list's lethal firepower. That's far from a small change.

RogueApiary wrote:
Please tell me how losing the equivalent of a Basilisk in points somehow manages to not significantly hurt a Guard army. That's a 12.5% drop in my LVO list's lethal firepower. That's far from a small change.

If you're running 6 Infantry Squads it's 60 points more to field the same squads. I don't have the Guard book in front of me, but how much exactly is a Bassie and it's gear?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
Please tell me how losing the equivalent of a Basilisk in points somehow manages to not significantly hurt a Guard army. That's a 12.5% drop in my LVO list's lethal firepower. That's far from a small change.

If you're running 6 Infantry Squads it's 60 points more to field the same squads. I don't have the Guard book in front of me, but how much exactly is a Bassie and it's gear?

108 points. They don't pay points for an Earthshaker Cannon but they do have to pay for the mandatory Heavy Bolter and any further upgrades.

What you're ignoring is that he might be talking about gear on them as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

Guard psykers are still way too cheap.

They really aren't, considering what they actually are.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
Please tell me how losing the equivalent of a Basilisk in points somehow manages to not significantly hurt a Guard army. That's a 12.5% drop in my LVO list's lethal firepower. That's far from a small change.

If you're running 6 Infantry Squads it's 60 points more to field the same squads. I don't have the Guard book in front of me, but how much exactly is a Bassie and it's gear?

108 points. They don't pay points for an Earthshaker Cannon but they do have to pay for the mandatory Heavy Bolter and any further upgrades.

What you're ignoring is that he might be talking about gear on them as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

Guard psykers are still way too cheap.

They really aren't, considering what they actually are.

46 points for Smite is already hella worth it. (and yes that means Eldar warlocks/spirit seers are also to cheap, before someone mentions it).

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
Please tell me how losing the equivalent of a Basilisk in points somehow manages to not significantly hurt a Guard army. That's a 12.5% drop in my LVO list's lethal firepower. That's far from a small change.

If you're running 6 Infantry Squads it's 60 points more to field the same squads. I don't have the Guard book in front of me, but how much exactly is a Bassie and it's gear?

108 points. They don't pay points for an Earthshaker Cannon but they do have to pay for the mandatory Heavy Bolter and any further upgrades.

What you're ignoring is that he might be talking about gear on them as well.

The price of gear isn't changing (as far as we know) so it's not me ignoring that, but rather the fact it doesn't currently change the price of the squad further. A squad with a mortar will be ten points more than a the current price of a squad with a mortar. Hence the difference is 10 x the number of squads (in the example I used 6 because CP generation), so for 6 squads, excluding points changes we don't know about it's 60 more points to run the same squad set up. Unless you're running 10 squads it's not a points differences that is equivalent to a full tank, and if you are, you'd get more mileage out of dropping a squad or two than trying to claim you can't take the tank anymore.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
Please tell me how losing the equivalent of a Basilisk in points somehow manages to not significantly hurt a Guard army. That's a 12.5% drop in my LVO list's lethal firepower. That's far from a small change.

If you're running 6 Infantry Squads it's 60 points more to field the same squads. I don't have the Guard book in front of me, but how much exactly is a Bassie and it's gear?

108 points. They don't pay points for an Earthshaker Cannon but they do have to pay for the mandatory Heavy Bolter and any further upgrades.

What you're ignoring is that he might be talking about gear on them as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

Guard psykers are still way too cheap.

They really aren't, considering what they actually are.

They are. the GSC Magus is 73 pts for a Guardsman statline and he's still taken for his powers. Guess how many I would take if they were half the price

I find the underlying premise as to why guard are balanced weird. The fact mono guard isn't that popular at tournaments, despite tournaments being dominated by soup builds, is held up as proof guard do not need a nerf. Even craftworld eldar more typically operate as soup than stand alone, hardly means dark reapers aren't likely to see a change.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

They are. the GSC Magus is 73 pts for a Guardsman statline and he's still taken for his powers. Guess how many I would take if they were half the price

The GSC Magus is 73 points and an HQ who grants army specific rules to his army, a Primaris Psyker doesn't.
A GSC Magus gets a "Look Out Sir" styled save in addition to being virtually unable to be targeted.

You want Primaris Psyker prices? You lose your rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverAlien wrote:
I find the underlying premise as to why guard are balanced weird. The fact mono guard isn't that popular at tournaments, despite tournaments being dominated by soup builds, is held up as proof guard do not need a nerf. Even craftworld eldar more typically operate as soup than stand alone, hardly means dark reapers aren't likely to see a change.

The issue with this idea is that "Craftworld Eldar" operating as soup is that they still can benefit from some of the perks, the Guard can't.

No. You want a psyker for primaris prices? Pay more. Because smite is that good. Nothing should be smiting for that cheap. Or take away their ability to cast anything other than smite.

Martel732 wrote:
No. You want a psyker for primaris prices? Pay more. Because smite is that good. Nothing should be smiting for that cheap. Or take away their ability to cast anything other than smite.

They can only cast one psychic power per phase.

You know this, right?

Yes, but they pay too little for that privilege. For their cost, they shouldn't have ACCESS to real abilities, just smite. Or take away smite.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, but they pay too little for that privilege.

They pay 38 points and get no beneficial abilities from their army since they're Astra Telepathica and not <Regiment>.

That is literally why the one list some months back was an illegal list where the guy gave his Primaris Psyker the Cadian Relic.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, but they pay too little for that privilege.

They pay 38 points and get no beneficial abilities from their army since they're Astra Telepathica and not <Regiment>.

That is literally why the one list some months back was an illegal list where the guy gave his Primaris Psyker the Cadian Relic.

Too cheap. Just like most IG units.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, but they pay too little for that privilege.

They pay 38 points and get no beneficial abilities from their army since they're Astra Telepathica and not <Regiment>.

That is literally why the one list some months back was an illegal list where the guy gave his Primaris Psyker the Cadian Relic.

Too cheap. Just like most IG units.

Uhhuh.

So how many of your characters don't get benefits from your Blood Angels traits again?

Doesn't matter. I pay out the ass for each and every model I put on the table. And they largely suck for their points. Librarians are terrible for their cost, for example.

I don't even know why I'm talking to you.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, but they pay too little for that privilege.

They pay 38 points and get no beneficial abilities from their army since they're Astra Telepathica and not <Regiment>.

That is literally why the one list some months back was an illegal list where the guy gave his Primaris Psyker the Cadian Relic.

Too cheap. Just like most IG units.

Uhhuh.

So how many of your characters don't get benefits from your Blood Angels traits again?

How many of your total units don't get Regiment bonuses again?

It doesn't matter. IG players, almost universally, don't understand that their true strength lies in not giving a feth about their opponent's turn. Their stuff is so cheap its very difficult to for most lists to cause significant harm in terms of points removed.

I'm frankly not sure what Eldar are going to if Dark Reapers get put in a nerf hole. Eldar can't win the shootout, even with Altioc, and can't assault their way out of the mess, either.

Who cares that your Primaris Psyker doesn't benefit from Regiment traits.
You get a smite for 46 points. And as a bonus he can give a unit and invul save or -1 to hit.

Any army would LOVE to be able to get that for so little points.
Heck give it T1 1W. I dont care.

Your completely oblivious to how good is it to have cheap units.

Martel732 wrote:
It doesn't matter. IG players, almost universally, don't understand that their true strength lies in not giving a feth about their opponent's turn. Their stuff is so cheap its very difficult to for most lists to cause significant harm in terms of points removed.

I'm frankly not sure what Eldar are going to if Dark Reapers get put in a nerf hole. Eldar can't win the shootout, even with Altioc, and can't assault their way out of the mess, either.

Assuming just reapers get hammered then Eldar should still be okay. They still have a decent amount of tools left to play. Other books really struggle vs guard though. I find it hard to pick up the Guard codex and actually make a bad list, the sheer amount of tools you can jam into 2k is amazing.

Eldar with nerfed reapers still have guardian blobs, altioc airforce wings and shinning spears buffed with superb strats and psychic powers. These are also massively improved with the imo stupid Ynnari mechanic, But if GW nerfs those too then obviously Eldar will be in trouble.

It is worth remembering though hopefully there will be widespread improvements to useless units alongside nerfs to the obviously undercosted Guard and Eldar powerunits. So hopefully more armies will have tier 1 options to bring to the tournament tables.

That's the hope. But I'm gonna need 50 pt whirlwinds lol.